Sumia is underrated

[Chiki]

I've noticed a lot of people here who, in my opinion, don't give Sumia enough credit. The reasons for this generally are: she's weak to bows, she has crappy offense and she has low durability. According to these people, units like Sully and Stahl outclass Sumia simply because they're more reliable. Let's see if this is true on hard mode. For this argument, I will be assuming that one is playing a normal "efficiency" playthrough on hard mode (that is, not LTC, because people often reject my own definition of efficiency). So Galeforce is not as significant here as it would be in LTC.

Start of Chapter 3:

Sumia's base stats at level 1: 18 HP, 6 Str, 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 8 Luk, 5 Def, 7 Res

Sully's base stats at level 4: 21.7 HP, 8.1 Str, 9.2 Skl, 9.2 Spd, 7.2 Spd, 7.9 Def, 2.5 Res

Now one can claim "but there's no point in comparing their stats when they aren't ever going to not be paired up in the main game!" This is a claim I grant, and I will give Sully and Sumia their best possible partners: Chrom and Frederick respectively. Sully wants Chrom because, as I will show later, it allows her to double the archers in this chapter with a C support (I'm assuming this gives +4 speed). They are also likely, I believe, to get married in an efficiency playthrough (who cares about Galeforce right?). Sumia, on the other hand, does not have issues with speed: she needs Frederick's offense and defense in order to do better. So we will be assuming that Sumia gets Frederick, and Sully gets Chrom. A rational player is going to use the best pair up combinations possible. No one wants Frederick as much as Sumia does.

Why don't we give Sully Frederick, and Sumia Chrom? Simply because it would be asinine to. As I will show later, Sully will not be able to double some enemies in Chapter 3, and Sumia will have major issues one rounding enemies overall. A team with Sumia x Frederick and Sully x Chrom will be more successful than a team with Sully x Frederick and Sumia x Chrom. You could also want to give Sully Vaike instead. But there's really no reason for this, because as I will show later, it will not allow her to double enemies.

Sumia's base stats at level 1 with a Frederick pair up: 18 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skl, 14 Spd, 9 Def, 7 Res, 8 Mov

Sully's base stats at level 4 with a C Chrom pair up: 21.7 HP, 8.1 Str, 9.2 Skl, 13.2 Spd, 9 Def, 7 Res

Sumia's stats with an Iron Lance: 16 atk, 14 AS, 9 def, 18 HP

Sully's stats with an Iron Lance: 14 atk, 13 AS, 9 def 21.7 HP

Sully also gets a +4 luk bonus, which I did not consider here as I do not believe it to be important. It's worth noting that Sumia has 1 more mov, which gives her more flexibility in her positioning. This is another significant advantage Sumia has over Sully. It's also worth noting that the calculation for doubling in FE13 seems to require 5 more AS than the opponent, rather than 4 AS. In order to see whose base stats are superior, let us see the enemy stats in Chapter 3:

Level 3 Soldier: 15 atk, 100 hit, 9 AS, 3 def, 24 HP

Level 3 Archer: 15 atk, 103 hit, 8 AS, 3 def, 23 HP

Level 3 Fighter: 20 atk, 95 hit, 7 AS, 3 def, 26 HP

Level 3 Mercenary: 16 atk, 114 hit, 10 AS, 4 def, 24 HP

As you can see, Sully and Sumia can both double archers and fighters; however, Sully can't double soldiers. Sumia can one round these soldiers with a Frederick pair up. Both have issues with the mercenaries. It seems apparent that Sumia can one round more enemies than Sully at base. Let us assume that Sully was able to gain one level and Sumia was able to gain two (due to being level 1) during Chapter 3. Let us consider their stats prior to Chapter 4:

Sumia's base stats at level 3 with a Frederick pair up: 19.5 HP, 10.9 Str, 13.4 Skl, 15.4 Spd, 9.6 Def, 7.8 Res, 8 Mov

Sully's base stats at level 5 with a C Chrom pair up: 22.5 HP, 8.65 Str, 9.8 Skl, 13.8 Spd, 9.45 Def, 2.25 Res

I'll be rounding up and down stats unless they're exactly .5.

Sumia at the start of Chapter 4 with pair up: 17 atk, 15 AS, 10 def, 8 res, 19.5 HP

Sully at the start of Chapter 4 with pair up: 15 atk, 14 AS, 9 def, 2 res, 22.5 HP

Sumia is still superior to Sully with pair ups considered. Res is important in this chapter, too, because there are 2 mages as far as I can recall. Sumia not only also has more durability, but also has better offense than Sully in this chapter. But why consider what they can do just with pair ups? After Chapter 3, both of them get Tonics and Forges available to them. Let's hand them both a forged Iron Lance and a Strength and Defense Tonic to further see the difference:

Sumia: 24 atk, 15 AS, 12 def, 8 res, 19.5 HP

Sully: 22 atk, 14 AS, 11 def, 2 res, 22.5 HP

Why does this difference matter? Consider the armor knights in Chapter 4:

Level 3 Knight: 20 atk, 2 AS, 10 def, 28 HP

Sumia freaking ORKOs these armor knights with two level ups. Even Sully can't do that yet: not even with Tonics and Forges. It seems that Sumia's earlygame disadvantage over other units.. does not even exist.

Now, here is a problem with using Sumia: "Sumia is weak to bows!" This is an issue which I grant, but it is not as much of a problem as you think it is. At base with a Frederick pair up, Sumia takes exactly 17 damage (with 1 HP remaining) from a bow, meaning that if it hits she can still keep going. Interestingly enough, there aren't even many bow users in the game. As far as I can remember, earlygame chapters 4, 5, 6, 8 all lack bow users. This will not be as much of an issue as you think it is. Even so, after Chapter 3, the bow users are so conveniently positioned that a flier can assassinate said bow user and not worry about getting attacked by another. The bow users are not closely positioned in earlygame after chapter 3. They are at places in which you can assassinate them with your own flier, or your other unit, and position your flier in the frontlines regardless.

Another advantage that Sumia has over most other units, including Sully and Stahl, is flying. People often consider it a disadvantage as it gives you a weakness to bows and wind magic that is often--exaggeratedly--crippling. But there are situations in which flying is useful, that don't just involve LTC uses:

Chapter 5: Allows you to fly over the hills and fly on the mountain to avoid enemy units if need be.

Chapter 6: Allows you to reach Validar more quickly due to the bushes that surround him.

Chapter 7: Allows you to fly in the vast empty space and mountains in this map for wyvern combat.

Chapter 8: Sand. Need I say more?

Chapter 9: Sand.

Chapter 10: Allows you to fly over the mountains here.

Chapter 11: Not a great advantage here, but you can fly over the many bushes in the chapter.

Chapter 12: Allows you to fly over the various obstacles.

Chapter 13: Allows you to fly over the mountains.

Chapter 14: Over the sea.

Chapter 15: Sand, and it allows you to fly directly from the sand and into the town for more action.

Chapter 16: Not much of a great advantage here either, but the path to the boss is often convoluted. Fliers have a faster path to the boss here.

Chapter 18: Allows you to fly over lava.

Chapter 22: Sand.

Chapter 24: This chapter is amazing for fliers and horrible for anything else due to the bushes.

Chapter 25: Allows you to fly over the mountain for a quick path to Aversa.

Flying can contribute to efficiency playthroughs. Not as much as it can contribute to LTC, but flying is useful everywhere regardless.

What about my beloved Galeforce? It's obviously one of the best skills in the game, but what place does it have in an efficiency debate? Galeforce's only uses are not limited to LTC, however:

1. Allows you to kill a strong unit and flee. This is even a very effective tactic in real life, known as guerilla warfare, which Wikipedia defines as surprising the enemy and fleeing. Is it not useful to use units which the enemy cannot kill?

2. Allows you to get extra exp on the player phase, which can even function as a pseudo-Veteran for the unit in question.

3. Allows you to save a unit, such as a flier, from getting killed by killing an archer. There are many potential examples of this.

4. Allows you to reach a thief who is opening chests and running away.

5. For healing and retreating.

6. For killing and then using a staff on someone.

There's a lot more uses here that I didn't list.

Is Sumia even getting Galeforce in an efficiency run? Sure. Various people have acknowledged that with intelligent use, Sumia can get Galeforce by around Chapter 20. In my LTC run personally, I was able to get Sumia to level 7 by Chapter 16. If I had been playing efficiently, I probably could have gotten her to level 15 at around Chapter 20 as well.

I hope this thread helps you see that Sumia is probably the best unit in the game below the Avatar.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Chiki

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Eh, I actually think Sumia is the best unit in the game below Fe-Avatar, or maybe on par with Fe-Avatar

[Redwall]

You should probably change "might" to "Atk" to avoid confusion. Might is strictly a property of the equipped weapon, while Atk is going to be the sum of Str, Mt, and weapon-rank bonuses.

[Chiki]

There we go, fixed.

[Anacybele]

I've just never been able to do well with weak and fragile units like Sumia. The only thing she really has going for her is speed. And Cordelia is just as fast for me, but much stronger and more durable. Sorry, but I'm benching Sumia once I get her hitched to Henry and recruit Cynthia.

[Chiki]

A Frederick / Kellam pair up with a Defense Tonic gives her 12 or 13 def at base. That's more than durable enough.

[Anacybele]

But when I have even more durable units I can choose from instead, that's pointless. Plus, I never intend to put Sumia with Frederick. And using stat boosting items will do good for anyone.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anacybele

[Chiki]

If you even bothered to read the first post, with the best pair ups possible, Sumia's durability surpasses Sully's.

[JasonMendez]

pairing sumia up with with the avatar is great because she is hardly hit because of her incredible speed and the boost she gets when paired up it awesome. she is much better than sully because sully has very weak attack and was bad on maps with sand which is no problem for sumia to travel. personally i think that pegasus knights and their promotions have always been the best in Fire Emblem games because of their versatility.

[Anacybele]

If you even bothered to read the first post, with the best pair ups possible, Sumia's durability surpasses Sully's.

I took a glance at it. it just tells me that Sumia requires babying and help to be of any use. Other units like Cordelia can do just fine alone or paired up. Also, Sully doesn't have great defense either. Almost all my trained up units have higher defense than her.

Look, nobody is going to convince me to keep using Sumia. I don't like her, it's my choice to bench her.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anacybele

[Chiki]

I took a glance at it. it just tells me that Sumia requires babying and help to be of any use. Other units like Cordelia can do just fine alone or paired up. Also, Sully doesn't have great defense either. Almost all my trained up units have higher defense than her.

Look, nobody is going to convince me to keep using Sumia. I don't like her, it's my choice to bench her.

Yeah, Sumia needs a pair up and tonics just like every other unit does. How is that babying?

No one's trying to convince you, but if you post in this thread you are going to be replied to.

[Interceptor]

Nominating this thread for the Weasel Wording wing of the Strawman Hall of Fame.

I thought it was pretty well established that Sumia is really important in the earlygame, particularly with Frederick. There are always going to be some detractors, but SumiaxFred is OTP, and probably something that rescues her from an otherwise lackluster support list. Her performance arguably puts her above an altogether better unit, Cordelia, just because of those pre-Ch7 contributions.

No news here.

[Vashiane]

This is stemming from the discussion over in the Dark Flier thread yesterday, huh?

But yes, Sumia's a great unit - I won't deny that - and especially if said Avatar has defense for an asset - that's some speedy destruction right there. The only problem I have is with pegasus knights, I have to consciously remind myself to keep them away from bows. Wind magic's usually not a problem, but... bows, goshdarn it. Maybe I shouldn't play at 2 in the morning.

Of course, Cordelia is just as good - I think the main reason Sumia is preferred over Cordelia is that you get her earlier, and therefore have more time to level and improve her. It's actually quite easy to have her at a higher level than Cordelia by the time the latter joins in chapter 7. And Sumia DOES get a hold of some good skills: Luna, Pavise, Renewal, the infamously famous Galeforce, Lancefaire, and enough Rallies to be a good rally bot (Movement, Defense, Speed, Luck, Heart).

[Anacybele]

They're far from being my OTP, so that's your opinion. Also, Sumia is not important for earlygame. I never used her at all and did just fine. She was of no use to me.

Not every unit needs a pair up to be good. I've had several people do just fine by themselves, namely Chrom because I was waiting until Olivia showed up to pair him with anyone. Frederick as well because he's Fred and anyone knows that he's great earlygame.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anacybele

[Samias]

I agree Sumia is underrated. While Cordelia has similar performance, Sumia is able to have a lot of unique contribution in the early game. Her strength growth really isn't very bad at all, though admittedly her defence falls off due to a lack of growth and reliance on tonics and support. For in-game purposes it's best to keep her in her pegasus knight tree and pair her with Frederick (and later Henry), but her class set is actually really great and chock-full of great skills. From knight she can pick up Luna, Dual Guard+, and Pavise. From cleric she picks up Miracle, Tomefaire, and Renewal. And of course everything out of pegasus knight is pretty great too.

Yes, she NEEDS supports and because she doesn't have many choices, that usually means pinning Frederick to her, people have also pointed out that Henry is also a pretty good support partner if you're looking to make Sumia's tome options usable.

[Constable Reggie]

Does Sully have galeforce? No? Didn't think so

Sumia > All

[Chiki]

My objective is not just to say that Sumia is good, but that she's above everyone other than the Avatar (like Sully and Stahl).

[Vashiane]

They're far from being my OTP, so that's your opinion. Also, Sumia is not important for earlygame. I never used her at all and did just fine. She was of no use to me.

Not every unit needs a pair up to be good. I've had several people do just fine by themselves, namely Chrom because I was waiting until Olivia showed up to pair him with anyone. Frederick as well because he's Fred and anyone knows that he's great earlygame.

No brotime for Chrom? If I'm waiting for Olivia, Chrom goes off with either Teach or Gaius.

I agree Sumia is underrated. While Cordelia has similar performance, Sumia is able to have a lot of unique contribution in the early game. Her strength growth really isn't very bad at all, though admittedly her defence falls off due to a lack of growth and reliance on tonics and support. For in-game purposes it's best to keep her in her pegasus knight tree and pair her with Frederick (and later Henry), but her class set is actually really great and chock-full of great skills. From knight she can pick up Luna, Dual Guard+, and Pavise. From cleric she picks up Miracle, Tomefaire, and Renewal. And of course everything out of pegasus knight is pretty great too.

Yes, she NEEDS supports and because she doesn't have many choices, that usually means pinning Frederick to her, people have also pointed out that Henry is also a pretty good support partner if you're looking to make Sumia's tome options usable.

Oh, agreed with the bolded statement. Usually my Avatar has magic for an asset, so I pair Sumia with them until I get Henry. Three-way Avatar/Henry/Sumia magic friendship for the win.

[Anacybele]

I prefer Cordelia simply because I prefer more durable and stronger units. I just never do well with the fragile ones. I find them frustrating to use. Cordelia has more support options as well.

EDIT: I didn't put Chrom with Gaius because I was working on getting the latter married to Maribelle. I never used Vaike much either in earlygame, though I probably should have because I lacked axe users. Frederick was the only one I had.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anacybele

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Cordelia did not really have a better options than Sumia either

Stahl and Vaike and thats it

[Interceptor]

They're far from being my OTP, so that's your opinion.

I'm not talking about shipping baloney, I'm talking about game mechanics, since that's what this latest Chiki vanity thread is predicated on. They each give exactly what the other wants in a partner; if that's not a perfect support, then nothing is.

Also, Sumia is not important for earlygame.

This is just factually incorrect. Your PEMN; Sumia enables some seriously useful arcobatics in the early part of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

No brotime for Chrom? If I'm waiting for Olivia, Chrom goes off with either Teach or Gaius.

On the off chance I intend to pair Chrom with Olivia, it'll likely have me marrying Sumia off to the avatar just because.

[ZemZem]

Cordelia did not really have a better options than Sumia either

Stahl and Vaike and thats it

Frederick/Cordelia is also a good one.

Speaking of Stahl, I wish Stahl/Sumia could pair together, but that's just off-topic. Anyway, I agree on how people don't give Sumia enough credit. Pairing her with Frederick for the earlygame is a good idea, and you don't even HAVE to make them get an S support. You can still pair Sumia with Henry, and what not, and have a really good Sumia due to all the help she got from Frederick for her to kill things easier and get even better before Henry exists. I don't know why people assume Sumia's marrying Frederick no matter what if you suggest pairing them to help the both of them out.

[Anacybele]

This is just factually incorrect. Your PEMN; Sumia enables some seriously useful arcobatics in the early part of the game.

Nope, not incorrect. If Sumia was needed for earlygame, I would have used her. Yet, I didn't need to. Never touched her at all until well into the Valm arc.

Also, it's not that I think I have to marry Fred to Sumia if I make them pair up in battle once or twice. It's that I also want to build supports between the married pairings that I DO want, like FreddyxFemale Avatar and GaiusxMaribelle. My dislike for Sumia also makes me reluctant to have her near Fred at all. xP

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anacybele

[dondon151]

My objective is not just to say that Sumia is good, but that she's above everyone other than the Avatar (like Sully and Stahl).

you're preaching to the wrong choir; it looks like there's only a handful of people that get what you're saying