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Improving the Genealogy Translation Patch


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I apologize in advance if I offend you in any shape or form.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people far more skilled in Japanese translation than I am, and heck you're probably one of them... but... I'm curious...

How much Japanese DO you know?

The only reason I'm asking (again I apologize in advance) is because of just a certain thing that annoys me when it comes to the storms that come up simply because of translations of "names".

There are some people here that have caused meaningless storms simply due to names... and the worst part about it was that they only knew katakana and had a nice little dictionary in their hands.

Katakana translation is a MESSY area when it comes to translation... and as long as discussion is civil, it's completely fine, because there's a LOT of room to maneuver when it comes to loaned words and names.

Now, on to the "translation" of skills.

Moonlight sword negates all defense, I don't know if Luna does.

In FE9 it reduces DEF to half. In FE10 it reduces it to none AND triples Strength. Yes Strength, not Damage. They're dead.

I almost forget, the difference between the FE4 skill and the FE9/10 Astra is that A) if you have a hero weapon equipped, Shooting star can give you 10 attacks, not 5 (not the case in FE9/10), all attacks are at full damage (I know that FE9's are not, I'm nor sure on 10's), and the attacks can be critical hits in 4. - so yes it works differently.

come to think Nihil (what was called alertness. lit translation = abandonment) also works differently (one negates criticals, the other doesn't), but I can see using Nihil just to avoid confusion and it is close.

At this point, why go with the literal translation?

Japan has been using the same names since then. The functionality is moot when it comes to using names that were localized for skills.

I can't see Prayer being Miracle (works different)

*point from above*

FE4: 祈り = Prayer

FE9/10: 祈り = Localized as Miracle

It doesn't freaking matter if the functionality is different... it's the same skill.

"Elite" is freaking "Paragon". "Life" is "Renewal". "Continue" is "Adept". "Ambush" is "Vantage".

Japanese has been consistent, fan translation hasn't because they were working with what they were given. But if those SAME SKILLS have different functionality, but have the SAME name in future installments that HAVE BEEN LOCALIZED... what the hell is the point of keeping something like "SHOOTING STAR SWORD"?

That's like localizing Asch's "Kouga Meishozan" [絞牙鳴衝斬] in Tales of the Abyss as "Strangle Fang Sound Stab Slash" instead of "Rending Saber".

I know it only usually refers to the spoken language as the example, but as a native speaker friend of mine once said:

"One who advocates word for word translation is a fool."

Edited by shadowofchaos
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I apologize in advance if I offend you in any shape or form.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people far more skilled in Japanese translation than I am, and heck you're probably one of them... but... I'm curious...

How much Japanese DO you know?

The only reason I'm asking (again I apologize in advance) is because of just a certain thing that annoys me when it comes to the storms that come up simply because of translations of "names".

There are some people here that have caused meaningless storms simply due to names... and the worst part about it was that they only knew katakana and had a nice little dictionary in their hands.

Katakana translation is a MESSY area when it comes to translation... and as long as discussion is civil, it's completely fine, because there's a LOT of room to maneuver when it comes to loaned words and names.

Now, on to the "translation" of skills.

In FE9 it reduces DEF to half. In FE10 it reduces it to none AND triples Strength. Yes Strength, not Damage. They're dead.

At this point, why go with the literal translation?

Japan has been using the same names since then. The functionality is moot when it comes to using names that were localized for skills.

*point from above*

FE4: 祈り = Prayer

FE9/10: 祈り = Localized as Miracle

It doesn't freaking matter if the functionality is different... it's the same skill.

"Elite" is freaking "Paragon". "Life" is "Renewal". "Continue" is "Adept". "Ambush" is "Vantage".

Japanese has been consistent, fan translation hasn't because they were working with what they were given. But if those SAME SKILLS have different functionality, but have the SAME name in future installments that HAVE BEEN LOCALIZED... what the hell is the point of keeping something like "SHOOTING STAR SWORD"?

That's like localizing Asch's "Kouga Meishozan" [絞牙鳴衝斬] in Tales of the Abyss as "Strangle Fang Sound Stab Slash" instead of "Rending Saber".

I know it only usually refers to the spoken language as the example, but as a native speaker friend of mine once said:

"One who advocates word for word translation is a fool."

What do you think about the class' names?

I don't think something like the kanas ドラゴン should be translated to something other than dragon?

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What do you think about the class' names?

I don't think something like the kanas ドラゴン should be translated to something other than dragon?

Like I said, Katakana is VERY flexible.

Since it was localized as Wyvern in FE7 to differentiate between the actual dragons, that's what I'd go with in the context of Elibe. As for other places, that's up to the team who hacks the game.

And if you don't like what they do? DEAL WITH IT. Or hack it yourself.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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It has nothing to do with katakana, ドラゴン is Dragon, and always is Dragon, no matter how or what you try to do whatever you want to do.

Since it was localized as Wyvern in FE7 to differentiate between the actual dragons, that's what I'd go with in the context of Elibe. As for other places, that's up to the team who hacks the game.

If it is of the Dracoknight/Wyvern Knight/Dragon Knight class which was changed. Go for it "dragon" or "wyvern". It depends on what the hacker wants.

Now in any other context? It's case by case.

Saying "always" and "never" when it comes to translation is a foolish mindset. There is "correct", "also correct", "more correct", and flat out "wrong" in translation depending on context.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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I guess the translations for this game are not as confusing as some of the TCG ones then (which is what I have been working on). I have to translate those directly, otherwise things get really confusing and so I assumed due the bad habit of IS on changing their classes, that the same would hold true between the games (I haven't gotten very far in FE5, but I know of the extra classes).

That's definitely a fair enough standpoint.

Really, I think you are doing a good job, just the new class names will confuse me since they don't always get translated the same by NoA for each game.

Huh, I actually thought NoA was pretty good with the class name consistency; the only particularly major changes between games which I can think of are changing the "wyvern" classes back to being "dragons" in FE10, or the Priest being called "Curate" in FE11. With NoA, it's the non-gameplay terminology which is the the greater problem (see: FE9's Persis/Belsys/Perseus clusterfuck, the myriad inconsistencies between FE9 and FE10).

I just figured I'd let you know about the FE Museum for the names that don't have a game in English yet. The big problem I have with Yurius and Yuria, is that in half the western countries, Julius is pronounced Yurius, but in the others, it's pronounced Julius. So to avoid the confusion, Yurius works (Johan as far as I know is always pronounced Yohan, so it's not a problem with that one).

The existence of the Museum isn't really news to the arenas of the FE3-5 fan translations; after all, even despite all the dubious names it presents, it's still the source of the majority of common names used for the casts of the three games, including important and widely-accepted ones like Marth and Celice. Sometimes it offers good (if unusual) names like those, but then there's the more questionable Romanizations it posits like "Siglud" and "Yurius". If I recall correctly, the FE5 and FE12 threads often debated the notion of falling back on what the Museum has to say, though the conclusions reached there are more overwhelmingly negative than how I see it.

That said, if it's still spelled Julius either way regardless of pronunciation, then the phonetic "Yurius" spelling does pretty much the exact opposite of abating confusion (not that there's much of it in the first place; the two names are already used with roughly equal frequency to refer to the same character and no-one seems to get confused). This is particularly important because FE4 is a textual work, not a spoken one; pronunciation is generally of less importance.

oh and if you want a horrid example of the offical romanized names, try Eyrios and Eyvel (should be if you spell it correctly, Helios and Aoibel...though I doubt anyone who doesn't know Gallic would get the right pronunciation of Aoibel), so I know what...unusual names they end up with using their very odd rominization of the names. I just figured, they exists, so might as well use them. (though some that are obviously wrong, even looking at the kana like Sigurd's name, I can see tweaking it a bit).

Yeah, those are pretty unfortunate too (in the FE5 revision thread they were discussing changing Eyrios because of this, though the "intended" etymology they deduced was "Ilios"). I'll admit to not really minding Eyvel at all, but that's the thing with names: personal preference tends to be one of the strongest influences.

On the other hand, and I realise how much this contradicts most of what I've been saying here, sometimes maybe it isn't so bad that names, official or otherwise, don't quite line up with their cultural etymologies? As in, while it's evident where the names came from, sometimes the differences in interpretation are for the better and make the name stand out on its own a bit more? The main example I can think of is Marth - it's clearly derived from Mars, yet it sounds fairly distinct and prevents, one could argue, the FE character from being "overshadowed" by the idea of the Roman war god, or something like that? (As another example, since Elibe names draw heavily on Europe in general, the PAL releases of FE7 did quite a bit in this vein, making changes like "Ositia" and "Biran" since its audience was actually likely to know that there is an actual Ostia and Bern; FE11's translations are also full of this sort of thing)

This is particularly prominent in the Jugdral duology, where a very substantial bulk of the terminology as it's officially Romanized and near-universally known is derived and corrupted in this way: Chalphy/Thjalfi, Barhara/Valhalla, Jungby/Yngvi, Holsety/Forseti, everything in the Manster District, all of the Crusaders, among others. I guess at this point though, I'm just repeating what you probably already know. Back in the FE5 patch revision thread, the individual trying to get that project off the ground had a very strong interest in reverting names to match their assumed mythological origins. With the exception of "Ilios", that didn't go over well.

...I think I forgot the point I was making, if any, and I probably just did a really good job of contradicting myself. Oh well.

I hope I wasn't too negative, I was just trying to point out things to help, not hinder. I typed my other post sometime after 4am, so I may have miss-types or not thought it all through.

Not at all! I for one really enjoy a good-tempered argument like this, and that's pretty much what I got here; it's a nice change from the shitstorms which were happening in the FE12 fan translation thread a few months ago.

come to think Nihil (what was called alertness. lit translation = abandonment) also works differently (one negates criticals, the other doesn't), but I can see using Nihil just to avoid confusion and it is close.

Indeed, though its FE5 functionality is pretty much the same as in FE10; FE4 is the odd duck here.

Edited by Rhinocerocket
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This is particularly prominent in the Jugdral duology, where a very substantial bulk of the terminology as it's officially Romanized and near-universally known is derived and corrupted in this way: Chalphy/Thjalfi, Barhara/Valhalla, Jungby/Yngvi, Holsety/Forseti, everything in the Manster District, all of the Crusaders, among others. I guess at this point though, I'm just repeating what you probably already know. Back in the FE5 patch revision thread, the individual trying to get that project off the ground had a very strong interest in reverting names to match their assumed mythological origins. With the exception of "Ilios", that didn't go over well.

Well, I think the point you're trying to make is that a reference to mythology does NOT require that the name be exactly that.

Not at all! I for one really enjoy a good-tempered argument like this, and that's pretty much what I got here; it's a nice change from the shitstorms which were happening in the FE12 fan translation thread a few months ago.

It's definitely a nice change of pace from the "HEY HACKERS, THE FANBASE DEMANDS YOU CHANGE THIS, THIS, AND THIS".

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Here are my two cents:

[spoiler=WORDSWORDSWORDS]--All this wyvern/dragon talk got me thinking. I think the only big issue with the name "wyvern" is that IS actually DID introduce a "wyvern knight" class, with the wyvern being called a wyvern in Japanese. I'm guessing that's why they switched to "dracoknight" in FE11, but I can't be certain. I checked the site, though, and it looks like they still used the term "wyvern" in FE9, so I don't really know what to think anymore.

I was pretty annoyed about the whole wyvern thing before, but now, I'm strangely ambivalent about it.

--I still think "Serlis" is a terrible transliteration, but I figure we'll know what his "official" name is when FE13 comes out in English, and the name can be changed then.

--Julia and Julius should be kept because Yuria and Yurius sound stupid.

--I don't like the sound of "Mage Hero" and I don't think I ever will. There must be a better name. I still like "Battlemage."

And with that, I shall take my leave.

Edited by Dalsin
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It seems that romanizations are really anglicizations, but on Jugdral they are speaking proper english not "propa engrish".

Julius - why not Yulius?

Julia - why not Yulia?

Serlis - why not Sellis?

e.g: "Gaius Julius Caesar" is a latin name and, I don't think, it should be pronounced in the english manner.

In german and slavic languages, "j" stands for a short "i".

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I always thought dragons had arms and wyvern didn't and that's the way to tell which was which.

You're correct. Dragons have 4 limbs + wings, while Wyverns have 2 limbs and wings OR 4 limbs, where arms double as wings.

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Then why did this patch change the name of the dragon riding units? The Dragon Rider doesn't have any arms(so I can understand the change with that one) but both the Dragon Knight and Master do. So, why the change to those two units?

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Then why did this patch change the name of the dragon riding units? The Dragon Rider doesn't have any arms(so I can understand the change with that one) but both the Dragon Knight and Master do. So, why the change to those two units?

Sorry I didn't mean to post this twice.

Edited by Guy Starwind
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Serlis - why not Sellis?

Serlis is the possible official english version name mentioned outside of Japan that was found in the Blazing Sword official site that the patch is using until if there are any changes confirmed in Awakening.

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Then why did this patch change the name of the dragon riding units? The Dragon Rider doesn't have any arms(so I can understand the change with that one) but both the Dragon Knight and Master do. So, why the change to those two units?

Like 99% of class name changes, consistency with the English releases, where such units are indeed called Wyverns despite not resembling them (with the exception of FE8's Wyvern Knight). In official FE releases, this was reverted to the more sensible "Dragon" title from FE10 onward (pending whatever 13 does), but maybe Twilkitri wasn't aware of that at the time?

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I finished a playthrough with the patch. Besides the stuff already mentioned (Hilda text glitch, ending lock-up, etc.), I noticed one stray instance of 'Ira' - when Lex (pretty sure it was him and not Holyn) gives Aira the Brave Sword. Alas, I don't have a screenshot for proof, but it was definitely there.

Some other random thoughts about some of the translation debates (remembering that I know very little about Japanese, and these are just my gut feelings plus my knowledge of English):

- If skills have the same name and same high-level function but differ in the specific mechanics, they should be translated the same way anyhow. I'd say that despite Miracle from FE9 and the previously translated Prayer from FE4 having different specific mechanics, that most players will be able to recognize that both skills have the same overall function (prevent killing blows) and their mechanics differ because the gameplay system is different, not because the developers were making a brand-new skill

- I don't care how you translate the Wyvern/Dragon/Draco/BigScalyFlyingLizard things. I can recognize what the point of the class is and not get hung up on things like how the dragons people ride are biologically different from Manaketes and therefore should have different names or whatever else people have been arguing over. To me they represent a contrast from Pegasus Knights - i.e. strength vs. speed, chaos vs. order - and what their mount is called doesn't matter so much so long as that separation is kept. As such, I'm honestly more intrigued by the second part of the class name ('WhateverItIsThisWeek' Rider vs. Pegasus Knight), but that's a discussion for another time.

- I think most of the choices for the other class names are fine, and any grievances I have with them are purely personal. I think the Arch Knight -> Bow Knight is a bit lame (the two names seem interchangeable to me), but I honestly can't think of anything to replace them with, and I'm assuming that those are the actual translations anyhow. 'Myrmidon' has always bugged me in FE games - I'm not saying it's wrong (because it obviously isn't), but personally the word 'myrmidon' conjures up images of an amphibious fish-man rather than a human swordfighter. 'Mage Hero' is serviceable enough, but I still don't think it flows as well as it should - I'd prefer something like 'Warmage' myself.

- I'm perfecly okay with 'Serlis', and would not be surprised or dismayed if that's what his official name became because of FE13. In fact, I half-expect it, if only to create a greater visual difference between his name and Celica's. What I am not looking forward to, though, is the massive amounts of predictable pissing an moaning from other fans if his name is translated as anything but 'Celice'. Of course, I say this with a certain amount of hypocrisy because I will be right there pissing and moaning with the best (worst?) of them if we end up with 'Yurius' and 'Yuria'. 'Scathach' is another good change in my opinion, if only becaues of how awkward I thought the name 'Skasaher' was to say.

Edited by simmeh
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I think the Arch Knight -> Bow Knight is a bit lame (the two names seem interchangeable to me), but I honestly can't think of anything to replace them with, and I'm assuming that those are the actual translations anyhow.

Yup, that's what the Japanese version goes with, and I'll also admit that I also find it to be one of the most disappointing class name choices in the game(s). I guess I wouldn't have minded it as much if IS had been consistent about it in later games - but instead, FE9 turned the Bow Knight into the unpromoted class which it sounds more like, with "Arrow Knight" (later translated as Bow Paladin) becoming the promoted form in FE10. FE13 only made things worse by applying the Bow Knight name to a Horseman knockoff (seriously why didn't they just call it Horseman, they just came off the back of two Archanea remakes which called it that).

Point is, this foul ball is on IS's end. I guess I'd support switching the names around to make more sense, though in general I do appreciate how the translation is sticking generally close to the original unless official English releases have anything to say on the matter.

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'Scathach' is another good change in my opinion, if only becaues of how awkward I thought the name 'Skasaher' was to say.

When I read that change, the first thing that came to my mind was how "Scathach offered Cúchulainn the friendship of her thighs" in Celtic myth... and I laughed for a good half minute. Oh, IS. You and your gender blender names.

Still, at least I can actually pronounce "Scathach". I don't even know where to begin with that... thing it used to be.

Edited by Samven
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personally the word 'myrmidon' conjures up images of an amphibious fish-man rather than a human swordfighter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

The word stems from mythology. It also has a modern meaning, as the article says. I have no idea where you got the idea of an amphibious fish-man (maybe you were thinking mer?), but make sure you understand a word before you diss it.

When I read that change, the first thing that came to my mind was how "Scathach offered Cúchulainn the friendship of her thighs" in Celtic myth... and I laughed for a good half minute. Oh, IS. You and your gender blender names.

Still, at least I can actually pronounce "Scathach". I don't even know where to begin with that... thing it used to be.

Kinda reminds me of Aoife/Oifey. If IS knew enough to look up the names, why couldn't they have looked up the characters' sexes?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

The word stems from mythology. It also has a modern meaning, as the article says. I have no idea where you got the idea of an amphibious fish-man (maybe you were thinking mer?), but make sure you understand a word before you diss it.

...

'Diss' is a really strong word, not to mention I never 'dissed' it. If I had wanted to 'diss' it, I would have said something like, "I think the name Myrmidon' is really stupid because it means a fish-man; you should have stuck with Swordfighter." Rather, I simply stated that the first image my mind conjures up when I think of 'myrmidon' is 'an amphibious fish-man', so I have a harder time than others associating the term with a speedy sword-wielding human, despite the mythological and historical links. I don't really see the problem with that.

As to why I associate 'myrmidon' with a fish-man:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Myrmidon

In the Warcraft universe, 'myrmidon' refers to the basic warrior class of the Naga, which are a race of sentient humanoid fish-creatures. I played Warcraft III before I played any Fire Emblem game, so my first exposure to the word 'myrmidon' was with the Naga warrior class, and thus my stronger association with Warcraft's version of the word rather than the Fire Emblem/mythological version. That association has stuck with me even after I played Fire Emblem, hence why I find calling Aira or Guy or Joshua or Mia or whoever else a 'myrmidon' a bit weird.

Let me reiterate: I never said the name 'myrmidon' shouldn't be used as the name of the class. I simply said that I personally think of it as an odd choice because of other things I associate the word with.

Edited by simmeh
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'Diss' is a really strong word, not to mention I never 'dissed' it. If I had wanted to 'diss' it, I would have said something like, "I think the name Myrmidon' is really stupid because it means a fish-man; you should have stuck with Swordfighter." Rather, I simply stated that the first image my mind conjures up when I think of 'myrmidon' is 'an amphibious fish-man', so I have a harder time than others associating the term with a speedy sword-wielding human, despite the mythological and historical links. I don't really see the problem with that.

As to why I associate 'myrmidon' with a fish-man:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Myrmidon

In the Warcraft universe, 'myrmidon' refers to the basic warrior class of the Naga, which are a race of sentient humanoid fish-creatures. I played Warcraft III before I played any Fire Emblem game, so my first exposure to the word 'myrmidon' was with the Naga warrior class, and thus my stronger association with Warcraft's version of the word rather than the Fire Emblem/mythological version. That association has stuck with me even after I played Fire Emblem, hence why I find calling Aira or Guy or Joshua or Mia or whoever else a 'myrmidon' a bit weird.

Let me reiterate: I never said the name 'myrmidon' shouldn't be used as the name of the class. I simply said that I personally think of it as an odd choice because of other things I associate the word with.

Ah, I see. I guess I overreacted. Sorry about that.

Still, association shouldn't be a rationale for choosing a name. NOA figured it would be the best name for the class. I agree, though, that there were plenty of other options that would have worked. A lot of previous games went with the name "swordfighter," although that does sound a bit bland. Guess we're stuck with it now though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I apologize in advance if I offend you in any shape or form.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people far more skilled in Japanese translation than I am, and heck you're probably one of them... but... I'm curious...

How much Japanese DO you know?

The only reason I'm asking (again I apologize in advance) is because of just a certain thing that annoys me when it comes to the storms that come up simply because of translations of "names".

There are some people here that have caused meaningless storms simply due to names... and the worst part about it was that they only knew katakana and had a nice little dictionary in their hands.

Katakana translation is a MESSY area when it comes to translation... and as long as discussion is civil, it's completely fine, because there's a LOT of room to maneuver when it comes to loaned words and names.

my Japanese is poor and self taught, but I know that different languages have different sayings that do not translate at all (I took French as my 2nd language). My sister got her degree in Japanese, so I ask her all sorts of questions (though she doesn't always have time to check what I have translated) She said for the most part, Katakana will always be translated as one way except for a few words (dragon will always be dragon, but some of the words that don't port over to kana well can have several interpretations, and thus where all the debate comes from). Like my example of Helios/Eryios - the katakana used is how the Japanese spell the Greek God Helios, so unless they are using that spelling for a different name for some unknown reason, his name is supposed to be Helios (though with IS, who knows what they are thinking...or what they really want for their names...they do seem to through the more "standard importing rules" out the window). Then again, they also throw in German and French when you are not looking..... I was told to check and see if the katakana was a 'standard' use for a name, and if not, sound it out to see what it is (which is hard to figure out for words form languages I don't know...like German), and then check to see if that has a 'standard' spelling. The problem she said is that they will sometimes take a standard spelling and stylize it for something else (sounds similar, but looks 'cooler' or something like that), or worse, shorten it and then you have no clue what it was supposed to be (i.e. percon = personal computer). Also, sometimes they will not use the 'standard' katakana, and that throws the whole thing off.

so yeah, I know what you mean by some names being open to interpretation, though as pointed out earlier by someone else, some are not open to interpretation, like dragon.

I try to have my sister check my translations, but she doesn't have much time anymore, so she can only glance through them now, so I will probably have some mistakes. oh well, c'est la vie.

sorry for the late reply, my computer has been acting up, so I have not been on-line too often.

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  • 2 months later...

I wanted to Point out that I have found Nintendo's Official Localized Names for Japan Only FE Characters (They are all in Awakening) And Request you Put them in this Patch. Here are a few of the Offical Names for you:

Sigurd (Gen 1 Main Character)

Seliph (Gen 2 Main Character, Sigurd's Son)

Leif (Protagonist of Thracia 776)

Nanna (Default love intrest of Leif)

These names are official Localized Localized Names for the characters, Straight from FE Awakening DLC. I'll Try to keep you updated.

Yeah, but I think you would typically go with Funf and Zwolf if you were to write them without the umlauts.

And what's the reasoning behind the Oifaye change?

Hey, Could you put the official NA Names in the translation? Message Me back.

Edited by Red Fox of Fire
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