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OMG it's a tier list


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#9221 Snowy_One

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

I do feel that there are units who did get ranked 'unnaturally' high though due to their rescue-dropping or units who got ranked 'unnaturally low' due to the assumption of fast chapter completes involving such things. For example: Marcia. Additionally, this discussion does directly relate into how we rank Jill since, I am fairly certain, at least a portion of her ranking has come from rescue-drops. I'd *like* to see that I'm wrong in this case as I happen to particularly like Jill in both PoR and RD as both a unit and character, but we aren't discussing PoR right now and I'm still a relative newcomer to the RD lists (since I didn't get the game until well-after tiering on the Gamefaqs forum had largely died down).



#9222 PKL

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:15 PM

Marcia in FE9 isn't only good because of rescue. She kinda like, flies in a game with lots of terrain and has ridiculous combat for a Pegasus. And FE10 Marcia never ferries anything so it's not relevant. In fact, not a lot of maps require ferries in FE10. The only one I can think of after Marcia joins is 3-11, but that's Haar's show.

 

EDIT: No, Jill is good at combat, not rescue dropping.


Edited by PKL, 09 October 2013 - 04:16 PM.


#9223 dondon151

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

the canonical example of a unit whose tier position is largely attributed to rescuing roles is FE6 shanna. very few other fliers are ranked highly because of rescuing (it's much better for them to fight).



#9224 -Cynthia-

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:46 PM

The only time Jill rescue drops things is 1-6(2) and there are a lot of other factors with Jill that make her rescuing ability is more of a footnote. Well I guess she might also help ferry Micaiah in 1-7 and 1-E but that's not really important.

 

I don't know how many times we need to repeat that FE9 Marcia isn't just good for rescue dropping. If she had really shitty combat we'd just use another flier to ferry Ike when necessary and she'd be a low tier unit like Ulki.


Edited by -Cynthia-, 09 October 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#9225 Espinosa

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:55 PM

the canonical example of a unit whose tier position is largely attributed to rescuing roles is FE6 shanna. very few other fliers are ranked highly because of rescuing (it's much better for them to fight).

 

Vanessa and Tana in runs with Seth come to mind. Very hard to train them.



#9226 XeKr

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:43 PM

Being stronger, more durable, more reliable, all in the name of using as few resources as possible to achieve the goal. That's another form of efficiency. I prefer it to turn-based efficiency because it's closer to my style and is less likely to favour certain classes, but that may not be enough to base a tier list on it.

 

I think your position is very fair and valid discussion material. I think, in most cases, people won’t disagree hugely with you or your conclusions. I am a bit curious what’s the purpose of having the bexp limit at all though. I don't think it adds anything very valuable.

 

The only other thing I would ask is how would you define stronger or more durable? As I understand it, we’ve gotten past looking at numbers in a void, so we try to compare to enemy stats. We’ve gotten past comparing to cherry-picked enemy stats in a database, so we prefer to add in-game context. In a given chapter, what enemies can a unit reach, or will they fight? What does it mean to be “better” at fighting certain enemies vs. others? In my eyes, the logical end to that thought process is something intricately connected to turncounts.

 

It's because I admit I don't have all the answers just yet. That's why I said I wanted to "play it by ear" to see where it goes. But instead of rolling with a new idea or at least asking me to expand a bit past the word "intuition," people immediately signed it off as not being worthwhile.

And that's what prompted me to say I know how the FEFF people felt, because they always said the SF tier community was a bunch of hotheads who aren't accepting of any ideas they aren't used to.

Forgive me if I'm a little bitter about it.

 

It is unfortunately incredibly difficult to break into the hivemind of commonly accepted thought, but that’s how these things go. Plus, changing community consensus toward an accepted standard is a whole different beast than examining the inherent self-consistency of a standard. Some arguments were admittedly the former (dismissing the argument because it was different/new/old) while some were the latter (pointing out obvious, potentially irreconcilable issues).

 

Re: Snowy’s stuff: Can I just briefly interject how utterly hilarious it would be if someone went into any other community, proposing to tier characters based on what would happen if a “casual” player refused to use certain dominant/useful tactics? >_>

 

EDIT: Not really seriously meaning it in any way. I just found it funny to consider, like in a FG list for example. <_<


Edited by XeKr, 09 October 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#9227 Hawk King

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:50 PM

Snowy needs to be banned from posting in tier list discussions.

 

Im not joking at all. His posts on the last 3 page have been suggesting rescue-drops and shove/smites being banned when considering a units worth. And then he complains about units being too high on the list because of their rescue-drop utility, and their combat ability should be what they are ranked on. But the units he points out dont rescue-drop at all, and they ARE high on the list BECAUSE OF THEIR ABILITY TO KILL THINGS.

 

He has no knowledge of efficient play. He hates LTC and he has never played any FE efficiently. He has no idea what hes talking about 90% of the time. He is selective on the points he argues about.

 

He just wastes people's time.



#9228 Espinosa

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:00 PM

'Efficiency' as a tiering criterion can be (and is continuously) challenged, so as long as we don't explicitly name it an 'efficiency tier list' Snowy has every right to walk into this topic to express dissenting opinions. Whether that is a productive discussion to indulge in is a different matter entirely.

 

I think the last few pages since this topic received its recentest bump have been tremendously confusing and messy, and Snowy cannot be blamed for that alone.

 

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.



#9229 shadykid

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:06 PM

Re: Snowy’s stuff: Can I just briefly interject how utterly hilarious it would be if someone went into any other community, proposing to tier characters based on what would happen if a “casual” player refused to use certain dominant/useful tactics? >_>

 

EDIT: Not really seriously meaning it in any way. I just found it funny to consider, like in a FG list for example. <_<

"Soul Fist is cheap, ban pls"-Snowy, while playing UMvC3



#9230 Miikaya

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:21 PM

It's totally fine for Snowy to express dissenting opinions, as has been pointed out. If you don't like what he has to say, then you don't have to respond.



#9231 Snowy_One

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:22 PM

What the frick is Soul Fist? 

 

Anyways, I wouldn't be the one demanding bans, or at the least Rosealina would be banned when I played Mario Kart with my friends. Just that they stop doing the victory dances when they win.

 

That aside, here's one simple question. If no one has rescue-dropping, LTC strategizing, or any of the things I usually hate in a tier list as a reason for their placement, why did you opt to claim that these things were right instead of simply saying that it wasn't/isn't due to the nature of the game?



#9232 General Banzai

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:24 PM

no keep snowy, if he's gone then i'll be the worst one here



#9233 -Cynthia-

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:38 PM

 

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.

 

People vary on this, they certainly have less availability than the dracos so the resource expenditure into them doesn't have the same output. They also have fairly low base stats so some amount of resources is needed to get their combat to a decent level. Marcia and Tanith do have some long term potential though since they can double, although Marcia's Str is pretty low.


Edited by -Cynthia-, 09 October 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#9234 PKL

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:42 PM

Espinosa- Marcia is second round in FE10 drafts. First pick in FE9.



#9235 Irysa

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:42 PM

'Efficiency' as a tiering criterion can be (and is continuously) challenged, so as long as we don't explicitly name it an 'efficiency tier list' Snowy has every right to walk into this topic to express dissenting opinions. Whether that is a productive discussion to indulge in is a different matter entirely.

 

I think the last few pages since this topic received its recentest bump have been tremendously confusing and messy, and Snowy cannot be blamed for that alone.

 

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.

 

Sigurd has no potential because he's dead.

 

As for Sigrun...she's forced and close to a tier 3 so that...probably works in her favor a bit? Dunno how much though, litearlly never used her.


Edited by Irysa, 09 October 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#9236 Harmonie

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

Marcia is usually round 2-3, Tanith goes after Marcia so usually round 3-4 and Sigrun is somewhere between late round 3 to early round 5. All three usually go before Janaff and Ulki, though sometimes Sigrun does go after the Hawks.

 

Thought drafts are on Normal Mode and I think the tier list assumes Hard mode so that changes things.



#9237 PKL

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

Yeah what doofina said. I'd say Tanith has more lategame potential than Marcia in HM. But Marcia has one or 2 more unique contributions to her name and is still serviceable. Sigrun is like, completely outclassed but she can still be useful by ferrying things i guess.



#9238 dondon151

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:08 AM

No. We shouldn't reward them. If we did we would be rewarding the person who thought up the strategy that allowed them to become useful, not the unit itself. If a units entire value is in their ability to rescue-drop, something that not everyone who uses the unit will employ or in that manner, we aren't making a tier-list. We're making a LTC guide.

 

yeah let's just ignore an entire mechanic

 

meanwhile let's also not reward units for be able to use forges (would hurt hand axe and javelin users disproportionately) or for being able to use staves.



#9239 shadykid

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:15 AM

 

yeah let's just ignore an entire mechanic

 

meanwhile let's also not reward units for be able to use forges (would hurt hand axe and javelin users disproportionately) or for being able to use staves.

 

k let's kick Laura to bottom tier

And Laura-down? Really? Until Micaiah promotes Laura is, literally, the ONLY unit who can use staves in the DB meaning, unless you fancy shelling out G/spending turns chugging vulneraries, having Micaiah sacrifice (which really doesn't do anything beyond move the damage to Micaiah) Laura will be your only healer. Ilyana can heal as well, but that requires promotions and Ilyana can switch sides. Just the fact that Laura *can* heal will make her very useful to the DB. Especially since her base healing is a whopping 18 with a heal staff (Micaiah doesn't even have that many hitpoints to sacrifice) and, when trained, she's at LEAST as capable as a sage in combat. Yea. I don't see why Laura should move anywhere.

darn



#9240 Baldrick

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:43 AM

I think your position is very fair and valid discussion material. I think, in most cases, people wont disagree hugely with you or your conclusions. I am a bit curious whats the purpose of having the bexp limit at all though. I don't think it adds anything very valuable.

The only other thing I would ask is how would you define stronger or more durable? As I understand it, weve gotten past looking at numbers in a void, so we try to compare to enemy stats. Weve gotten past comparing to cherry-picked enemy stats in a database, so we prefer to add in-game context. In a given chapter, what enemies can a unit reach, or will they fight? What does it mean to be better at fighting certain enemies vs. others? In my eyes, the logical end to that thought process is something intricately connected to turncounts.


The BEXP limit is to prevent turtling and boss abuse, which will make tiering impossible, given time is an infinite resource.

My view is to take combat in a "horses for courses" manner, primarily on performance but also taking into account what they gain from the (combat) experience and what benefit they will provide if properly levelled. Lower turncounts will naturally result from using higher-tier units but (imho) they are meant to be a pleasant side-effect, not the aim, so removing them from the equation makes sure we don't put the cart before the horse. To use an example, if we had Mia and Gatrie against a large group of far-off enemies the best solution is not to spend resources beforehand to pump Mia up to Gatrie's level and have her engage them because she can reach them quicker, but to have Gatrie engage them and go a bit slower.

It's totally fine for Snowy to express dissenting opinions, as has been pointed out. If you don't like what he has to say, then you don't have to respond.


Dude you should stop trying to squash discussion with your anti-intellectualist agenda ;)




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