OMG it's a tier list

[Aless_and_Sety_Rule]

Maurim should go above Tanith. They both have equal availability (Tanith has 2 in part 3 and 2 in part 4, while Maurim has 3 in part 1 and 1 in part 4). In part 1-7 Maurim is probably your best unit sans possibly Tormod due to his 1-2 range. Then in 1-8 Maurim is worst then Volug due to him not having transformation problems and Nailah, but everyone is in that chapter is aswell so it doesnt hurt him much. Plus he is saving you one of the prisoners easily before the Dragonrider gets to it. Maurim is also powerful in 1-F, but is being beat out by Nailah, Black Knight, Volug with a earth support. Tormod again may be better due to 1-2 range and no downtime plus hitting res while Sothe will be getting theiving most of the chapter anyway. Zihark may be better since he may have started a earth support with Nolan or Volug by now. As for Tanith, her only real use is to cover the pot holes in 3-11. Bieing with the Griel Mercs she is being compared to h4x units like Ike, Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Mia, Gatrie, Oscar, Titania, Shinon and possibly growth units like Boyd and Nephenee, she really is not very great in this part. As for Part 4, Tanith would be useful due to her flying abilities if you send her with Micaiah. And I admit Maurim is doing worse in part 4, but he still has decent stats and is fairing much better than the likes of Vika and Tormod.

Maurim

Pros:

One of your best units during the hardest part of the game

H4x stats when transformed

Cons:

Low availability

Only a decent/bellow average unit during part 4

Transformation Guage

Tanith

Pros:

Flying

Earth Affinity

No transformation gauge

Good once trained

Cons:

Low Availability

Not even the one of the top 10 units during the easiest part of the game

Meh fighting stats at base level

[Vykan12]

That is only if you include 3-8's bexp, which is only available in 3-10's base.

Oh yeah, if we wait just one chapter, we can add the entire CRK BEXP supply to the GMs, so a total of 34650 is available. Now even Ulki’s only using 25% of it.

So Ulki's 8750 is > 48.6% of our supply, and Janaff is 4450, or ~24.2%, totaling >72.8% of our bexp.

If we’re arguing Gatrie vs a specific hawk, why would we assume the other one is necessarily in play? If we’re talking about Ulki for instance, I’m not punishing him for whatever amount of BEXP Janaff uses. Should we start punishing Gatrie for the amount of BEXP Neph uses?

Where does the tier list stand on slowplaying? The idea, as I'm sure most know, is to get people up to like 60 to 80 exp or something and bexp from there.

If you’re intentionally slowplaying a character then you can basically control their CEXP to as close to a level up as you want. At that point, the BEXP they use is pretty negligible.

Mia or someone can get 160 exp in a lot of maps, and then it won't cost much to bexp.

It would probably be significantly lower than that the farther you get in part 4 due to units levelling faster than enemies and BEXP ramming is only effective in late second tier (usually 20/15 onwards).

Take a lv --/17 Mia in 3-11 for instance. Enemy levels average to about 13-14 so she’s only gaining 3-4 exp per hit/14-16 exp per kill (source). She needs a good 11 kills per map to maintain that 1.6 levels per chapter rate you’re suggesting, which is essentially 20% of the map’s total enemies. In an army of 10 units, that’s twice what you’d expect of the average unit, which is rather lofty.

So, he gains hit exp like a 20/8 beorc. At effectively 3 levels under the competition, he is likely pulling 7 or 8 exp per attack.

I just tested out untransformed CEXP gain with Skrimir and Naesala in 4-P and both of them got 15. Using the HM exp calculations yields 9 for Skrimir and 8 for Naesala respectively, so there has to be a bonus that’s unaccounted for. I think it’s a safe guess that either hawk is getting >10 CEXP from untransformed counters, and that obviously compounds over time, especially if a kill was tacked in there somewhere.

Early crowning is all about what they give up down the road compared to what they bring now.

Presumably you crown someone who has very little to lose from the remaining level-ups they have left in second tier. In addition, they actually make long term gains in uncapping important stats earlier, and there’s no denying the short term benefits of crowning are colossal. In other words, basically everyone I already mentioned.

Without the crown, 26 def and 12.75 res is not pulling off these defensive feats nearly as well, especially against mages in 3-4 and 3-5, or in 3-7 on near the end of a pure water or without one at all.

If he has a B Shinon support by then, he’ll actually have 45hp/28 def/14 res/83 avo for durability #s. A 3-5 steel blade!paladin does a whopping 4 damage (12HKO) while the second most powerful enemy in the level (a steel poleax!paladin) pulls 8 damage (6HKO) with only 18.30 real hit. Still sounds like a brick wall to me.

I’ll give you that he survives sages better with a crown, but so does anyone else who takes one. See, most people get +4 hp/+4 res upon promotion, which is a massive durability boon against mag based enemies.

Plus, he takes actual damage from swordmasters and so the crit threat is real

The 3-5 ones have 27 atk, so even if Gatrie is unsupported, he’s taking a massive 1 damage, 3 if he’s critted.

and his offence pretty well blows.

2 rounding offence =/= suckage, especially when more than half your cast suffers the same fate for a good portion of part 3. Granted, he does go from 2 rounding -> 1 rounding quite a few enemy types, but many units are still competitive in the offensive boosts they get from a crown anyway.

So, giving anyone else a crown needs to make up for the difference between crowned Gatrie and not crowned Gatrie.

No it doesn’t. If there are 99 units who can use a resource equally well and a 100th unit who can use it 5% more proficiently, then the fact that the 100th unit makes the best use of the resource is negligible at best. That’s of course an exaggeration of the facts but the same general concept applies here.

*Titania*

In her case, even promoting her at lv 20 has a pretty significant benefit since now she gets promo bonuses and sol a good 1-2 chapters before she normally would.

Offensively, Titania will have the exact same str as Gatrie after crowning with the exact same growth, and instead of 2 units ORKOing anything they lay eyes on we now have 1.

Titania only has 23 AS at lv 20, so she’s doubling as consistently as second tier Gatrie is, which I gather isn’t very much :P. The second crown shows up in 3-11, so if Titania promotes in 3-8 or 3-10 naturally, then that would be the only period of time where your statement holds true. In other words, we can have one killing machine or the other, not both, with the exception of maybe 1-3 chapters.

At any rate, yes I agree Titania is probably one of the weaker crown candidates on that list but she’s still there regardless.

*Soren.*

The point of crowning Soren is entirely staves. He basically replaces Rhys as a healbot and does a much better job at it due to getting 2-3RKOed as opposed to frequently 1RKOed, not to mention better ranged output and supports we don’t necessarily want to throw away in the long run.

First, if we don't wall his support then Oscar won't be attacked on enemy phase, his support will.

Wut? Are you saying Oscar’s avo is so high that enemies won’t even attack him? This isn’t FE4, and I’m fairly certain enemies look at concrete durability more than avo when prioritizing targets.

Without Oscar's supports, 87.75 avo while being 3HKOd by 46 mt and 4HKOd by ~42 mt is not good.

Sure it is, because those atk values you listed are enormous. There’s only 1 enemy in 4-2 with 46 atk, and even the 40 atk benchmark is about as rare aside from warriors, but those usually have laughable hit rates anyway (a poleax one probably pulls ~28 display on him unsupported).

Most importantly, he has trouble 100% ORKOing warriors and halbs without a forge

Why’s that an issue? Forges are a financial strain only, and most people here seem to agree that money isn’t an issue in any part of the game.

Further, only Mordecai can keep up and only once he transforms.

If Oscar’s supports can’t keep up with him, I can’t see how anyone else can either, so him 2RKOing would be much more forgivable. Let’s say he weakened 3 enemies before Ike and Boyd could reach those enemies. Now Oscar can kill one of those 3 enemies and canto off while Boyd and Ike finish off the remaining 2. The effect is largely similar to having a lower move unit simply 1RKO those 3 enemies to begin with.

Oscar’s other option would be to restrict his move a little so that his supports can keep up, and now his atk is respectable again. With B Mordy, he has 40 atk, the same as Janaff’s base.

And he won't even have an A with Heather or Brom until 3-10 (40 mt from a B also fails to ORKO halbs in 3-8), or an A with Mordy until part 4, possibly.

A support grows at slowest every 2 chapters for me, so that seems a bit off. A Brom/Heather would’ve been done by 3-8, if not sooner. Also, Oscar with Boyd/Mia/Mist isn’t inconceivable.

So, given how he constantly needs to double and 20 enemies could break his only weapon that reliably kills stuff, he needs a fair number of forges or he won't ORKO stuff.

Your issue with giving Oscar a regular weapon was that it caused hit rate issues. Ironically enough, the same is true of Gatrie. If we crown him at the earliest possible moment (--/15/0), he now has 78 base hit to Oscar’s 84, and Oscar also has a 65% higher hit growth. I guess the silver poleax does have +10 hit on the silver greatlance, but even considering that, they’d still more or less tie overall hit rate.

Hand Axe Gatrie has 38 mt, not ORKOing everything, but at least knocking everything not a General down to easily killable range. Oscar on the other hand, has 30.75, lets round up to 31 mt.

It would be up to 43/36 respectively since hand weapons are forgable, and it’s a pretty wise investment to make. Adding 2 Mt alone only increases the cost by 40%, which is simply 240 extra gold.

Evidently Oscar’s 2 rounding a lot more than Gatrie is with hand weapons but he’s also reaching targets sooner (he’s a full turn ahead of him in just 2 moves), which heavily offsets that.

One of the main problems with your crowning analysis is your comparing crown!Gatrie to crown!other units. The problem is if Gatrie >>> Oscar before a crown, he’s still going to be much better when both are raised a crown, so that comparison doesn’t truly reflect the change in performance for those units individually. Another is that you're not considering the dramatic effect it has to wait just 2 chapters before using that crown you got in 3-3. Sure, Gatrie could've used it more or less immediately, but then the effect on the other crowned unit is probably big enough to compensate for that, at least somewhat.

Enough about crowns, the word itself is making me noxious. The whole issue of Gatrie using a crown is actually a pretty minor point in regards to the full Gatrie vs hawks comparison. If you buy that energy drops are less competed for than a crown for instance, then this whole elaboration was wasted breath (relatively speaking Int).

[charmander6000]

Maurim should go above Tanith.

I agree. I don't think Tanith has anything over Muarim and the Lions to warrant being above them other than flying and earth support.

[Colonel M]

I agree. I don't think Tanith has anything over Muarim and the Lions to warrant being above them other than flying and earth support.

Pretty much utility, which kind of gets shafted in this Tier list in general.

Not that it's saving her a whole lot. If anything, Skrimir and Maurim have better utility.

[charmander6000]

What utility? She doesn't heal or steal and she can't even shove. Covering potholes doesn't mean much when you have Haar, Sigrun, Marcia, Janaff, Ulki and Leanne to choose from. Rescuing can be done by even more people and ferrying isn't that useful unless you're trying to complete a low-turn count PT.

[Colonel M]

What utility? She doesn't heal or steal and she can't even shove. Covering potholes doesn't mean much when you have Haar, Sigrun, Marcia, Janaff, Ulki and Leanne to choose from. Rescuing can be done by even more people and ferrying isn't that useful unless you're trying to complete a low-turn count PT.

That's the point. Her utility isn't as "unique" as being able to tank, perse. Or helping a team out that lacks certain resources *coughAuthorityStarscough*. You're basically repeating what I said, in a sense.

[charmander6000]

If no one is going to argue Tanith > Muarim/Lions I'd like to argue Brom > Tanith.

During the time Brom exists before Tanith (10 chapters) he never doubles, but he is able to 2RKO non-general enemies (though sometimes it's borderline). His defences are awesome taking single digit damage from most non-mages. When Tanith shows up she can't double and has lower durability than Brom. Tanith doesn't start putting up a fight until she doubles in part 4. Tanith may have flight and more move, but she doesn't have enough time to catch up to Brom.

Edited July 9, 2009 by charmander6000

[Progenitus]

Marcia and Tanith are just overrated in general. I would hardly even call them mid tier material. But I'll leave that for later.

[Florete]

Pretty much utility, which kind of gets shafted in this Tier list in general.

Not that it's saving her a whole lot. If anything, Skrimir and Maurim have better utility.

Wut? Sigrun went up a few weeks ago solely on her utility (flight and affinity based). Any staff user is as high as he or she is based on utility. Heather is Mid instead of something like Low for utility. The Dragons don't suck because of utility. Utility is definitely of value to the list. Assigning a value is the tough part.

That said, Muarim > Tanith makes sense and I'll make that change. The Tigers I still need to get to. Now whatever happened to the stuff with the Hawks?

[grandjackal]

Speaking of Tigers, I don't recall Naesala vs. Mordecai being resolved or I'm stubborn to the point where my brain deletes memories solely based on being curbstomped .

Anyone wanna take that up? Because when I did, it went SO swimmingly...However, I'm also errible at arguing points, I'm better with just a base idea x.x

[CT075]

Speaking of Tigers, I don't recall Naesala vs. Mordecai being resolved or I'm stubborn to the point where my brain deletes memories solely based on being curbstomped .

Anyone wanna take that up? Because when I did, it went SO swimmingly...However, I'm also errible at arguing points, I'm better with just a base idea x.x

Naesala won handily.

[Interceptor]

Hawks still appear to be ongoing. I don't have the mental bandwidth to get into the argument between Narga and Vykan.

I will, however, reiterate my point about availibility: my original example had them 12 chapters vs. 18, but realistically if we were to consider Endgame's 5 short chapters as, say, two chapters, now the hawks have only 60% of Gatrie's availibility, and would logically need to be helping the army ~67% more than Gatrie in their shared chapters in order to even tie with him. Again, this is ignoring environmental factors.

Crowning is a silly argument, and it always has been. The crowning argument only makes sense when you basically make shit up. If you were to accept the hypothetical laid forth by dondon/Vykan/whomever that Gatrie being only 5% more efficient than a dozen other crown participants or whatever makes his crowning a big negative, or that he only has a 10% chance to get it in a field of people close to him, that's logical -- except that reality disagrees with those figures, so the hypotheticals are worthless. Largo Jr. does not exist.

The way the cookie crumbles is that basically every scenario where Gatrie is deployed and the crown is given to soemone other than him is less effective than one where he's deployed and he gets it. Like I said before, this does not mean that he gets it for free, but it does mean he accrues a smaller negative than anyone else. There are not as many early crown candidates (EARLY candidates: every chapter after 3-4 that you reach maturity, you become a shittier candidate for the early crown) as are being claimed (Mia was a particularly retarded example), and the gains are also not as great for others as is being claimed. I also thought that idea of stealing a crown in 3-7 for some of the mid-term bloomers was pretty clever, I'd never thought of that before.

It's true that an Energy Drop is probably less detrimental than a crown (single Drop only: more than that and we're sitting on the one from 2-E or 1-whatever), and it's possible to at least shave down a little bit of their atrocious BEXP drain (even if the ratio of total BEXP is smaller come 3-11, it's still a lot of BEXP, I don't care what you say about it, especially for Ulki), but the hawks have a pretty staggering performance gap to close. If they only had to perform at a 10-20% premium over Gatrie that'd be one thing, but Ulki or Janaff basically has to be an extra half person just to tie-game. I think that's a bridge too far even with a favorable look at their stats, giving them a pass on their 2-range and transform issues, and pumping up a 9-MV flying lead over 6-MV General to the fullest extent possible.

[dondon151]

Crowning is a silly argument, and it always has been. The crowning argument only makes sense when you basically make shit up. If you were to accept the hypothetical laid forth by dondon/Vykan/whomever that Gatrie being only 5% more efficient than a dozen other crown participants or whatever makes his crowning a big negative, or that he only has a 10% chance to get it in a field of people close to him, that's logical -- except that reality disagrees with those figures, so the hypotheticals are worthless. Largo Jr. does not exist.

Neither of us said that Gatrie getting the crown results in a big negative, and I suppose you didn't read or understand my post if you're deflating numbers like 40% down to 10%. Gatrie getting the crown is like the difference between a majority and a plurality; he gets it more often than anyone else, but he doesn't get it most of the time.

The way the cookie crumbles is that basically every scenario where Gatrie is deployed and the crown is given to soemone other than him is less effective than one where he's deployed and he gets it. Like I said before, this does not mean that he gets it for free, but it does mean he accrues a smaller negative than anyone else.

I'm pretty sure both Vykan and I were implying that "this does not mean that he gets it for free, but it does mean he accrues a smaller negative than anyone else," so I don't know what you're getting at, unless it's something contradictory like Gatrie getting the crown because he makes the best use of it but he doesn't get it for free therefore meaning that Gatrie doesn't actually get the crown...

Like I said before with my FE11 example, you get 3 Master Seals prior to chapter 16. It's not automatically assumed that those 3 Master Seals go to Cord, Merric, and Barst just because they're at the top of the tier list.

The point is that Ulki is more likely to get an Energy Drop than Gatrie is to get a Master Crown, which you seem to agree with, so I don't know what we're arguing about.

Edited July 9, 2009 by dondon151

[cheetah7071]

Why did Tanith go down below Muarim but not Skrimir? It's not like Tanith vs Muarim had any more discussion than Tanith vs Skrimir.

[Colonel M]

Wut? Sigrun went up a few weeks ago solely on her utility (flight and affinity based). Any staff user is as high as he or she is based on utility. Heather is Mid instead of something like Low for utility. The Dragons don't suck because of utility. Utility is definitely of value to the list. Assigning a value is the tough part.

If that is the case, then why is their this gap between Naesala and Tibarn in the first place? I'd say that should close down, with Naesala hopping a few steps. After all, he is helping a team that lacks Authority Stars and he doesn't have the worst of Avoid in the first place.

That said, Muarim > Tanith makes sense and I'll make that change. The Tigers I still need to get to. Now whatever happened to the stuff with the Hawks?

I'd say Skrimir > Tanith is good too. No one really tried to defend it.

[Florete]

The point is that Ulki is more likely to get an Energy Drop than Gatrie is to get a Master Crown, which you seem to agree with, so I don't know what we're arguing about.

How so? I can, in a way, "duplicate" a Master Crown by simply leveling a unit past 20 (since this isn't the Japanese game we're discussing) so that the unit promotes. Energy Drops are much more limited (I can only think of two at the moment, but I'm pretty sure there's a third) and help a wider variety of units. I don't see how Crowning is taking more than an Energy Drop.

Why did Tanith go down below Muarim but not Skrimir? It's not like Tanith vs Muarim had any more discussion than Tanith vs Skrimir.

Muarim > Tanith was more clear-cut then Skrimir > Tanith, that's why.

Does anyone have anything else to say about Hawks vs. Gatrie/Mia? Any problems with how they are on the list now?

[Zkirsche]

Why is Leanne so high? Better than Titania? I must ask how. I'd go as far to say that Zihark/Nolan is better than her.

Heck, I don't see what Titania's doing to get above Zihark/Nolan that gatrie isn't. 3 mov is good and all, but.... I can't see it being that big in this game compared to, say, PoR where every single unit had high mov.

Also, i can see Mia > Hawks for similar reasons, except she has a smalled mov loss and better crit.

Edited July 9, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

Neither of us said that Gatrie getting the crown results in a big negative, and I suppose you didn't read or understand my post if you're deflating numbers like 40% down to 10%. Gatrie getting the crown is like the difference between a majority and a plurality; he gets it more often than anyone else, but he doesn't get it most of the time.

Vykan has a nice line about the effect of Gatrie's crown being cancelled out by the opportunity cost of giving it to someone else, which is an indirect way of making the silly point that these crownings are roughly equivalent, which has already been shown to be false.

I did understand your post, you apparently did not understand mine (which may be my fault). I was making a point about how I can make up any number of absurd figures to support a point, but reality has the final say. Whether your number is 10% or 40% does not matter. Pointing out that Gatrie has a "chance" to get something is something that I find to be a dangerous argument, because if he's objectively the best use of the resource and you only give it to him half the time when he's deployed, that suggests that around half the time you're a retard.

I'm pretty sure both Vykan and I were implying that "this does not mean that he gets it for free, but it does mean he accrues a smaller negative than anyone else," so I don't know what you're getting at, unless it's something contradictory like Gatrie getting the crown because he makes the best use of it but he doesn't get it for free therefore meaning that Gatrie doesn't actually get the crown...

I prefer to use the chance to get a resource as a weighting factor, but to use the resource reasonably in calculations. AKA, take into account that Gatrie's use of the crown has an opportunity cost, but give it to him in a comparison. I feel that using units stupidly undermines the point of tier lists.

Like I said before with my FE11 example, you get 3 Master Seals prior to chapter 16. It's not automatically assumed that those 3 Master Seals go to Cord, Merric, and Barst just because they're at the top of the tier list.

This is not really a good analogy if I understand my Seal mechanics correctly, as they apply to FE10 crowns.

The point is that Ulki is more likely to get an Energy Drop than Gatrie is to get a Master Crown, which you seem to agree with, so I don't know what we're arguing about.

I am arguing about the magnitude of this likelyhood. If it's not sufficiently smaller than a crown, Ulki still loses because of availibility. Follow?

[cheetah7071]

Muarim > Tanith was more clear-cut then Skrimir > Tanith, that's why.

If nobody debates against it, then that suggests to me that there's a consensus, especially when several people agree with it. Unless of course you're cooking up an argument to keep Tanith afloat right now.

Though honestly once she sinks below Skrimir I'm going to move right into debating her vs Caineghis. My current thoughts are that she can sit comfortably right above Kieran.

[Florete]

If nobody debates against it, then that suggests to me that there's a consensus, especially when several people agree with it. Unless of course you're cooking up an argument to keep Tanith afloat right now.

Though honestly once she sinks below Skrimir I'm going to move right into debating her vs Caineghis. My current thoughts are that she can sit comfortably right above Kieran.

I am, but I wanted to handle one thing at a time as I previously mentioned, but this topic moves too damn fast and people are always bringing up new issues and it makes hard to sit on one topic until it's resolved.

[Mekkah]

If that is the case, then why is their this gap between Naesala and Tibarn in the first place? I'd say that should close down, with Naesala hopping a few steps. After all, he is helping a team that lacks Authority Stars and he doesn't have the worst of Avoid in the first place.

The difference between Naesala and Tibarn is not to be underestimated. If I recall correctly Naesala relies a lot on Tear for ORKOs, whereas Tibarn's getting clean kills on anything that isn't Dheginsea or a Red Dragon. I recall something about him KOing Generals and something with tiles...either he could kill them on Cover tiles or he couldn't. Of course he also has the easiest route for part 4...then again he is one of the prime reasons that route is so easy, and his flierness is helping him just as much, if not more than Naesala's. I see people often screaming that laguz and fliers go Micaiah's route, but Tibarn has a nice swamp to take care of as well.

[-Cynthia-]

I could see Naesala posibly better than Aran/Boyd though, he obviously has 2 chapters where he's just awesome and is one the best choices for 4-E, even while being inferior to Tibarn. It's probably better than being medicore most of the game like Aran or Boyd.

[Colonel M]

Unfortunately we don't have the exact stats for the Generals, so I'm not sure on how to counter that. It's mainly stating that the gap should close a bit.

[CT075]

I could see Naesala posibly better than Aran/Boyd though, he obviously has 2 chapters where he's just awesome and is one the best choices for 4-E, even while being inferior to Tibarn. It's probably better than being medicore most of the game like Aran or Boyd.

There is the question of Aran's concrete defenses. For example, level 20/6 (A perfectly reasonable level to be at by part 4) Aran has 24.5 Def and 35 HP. Level --/14/1 Tauroneo (Who is considered to be pretty damn durable) has 23 Def and 42 HP. And this is without considering supports. Aran (A Laura) bumps this up to 35 Hp/26 Def. Naesala does have two chapters of awesomeness against Aran, but Aran's own Part 4 isn't too shabby as long as he doesn't go into the desert.

I'm not defending either of them, (Much as I'd like to) but I'm just bringing up some counter-arguments.

[Vykan12]

Naesala only relies on tear against wyverns and generals, and a strike gain + some leveling would probably give him enough atk to ORKO 4-E-1 armors semi-reliably.