OMG it's a tier list

[cheetah7071]

Unfortunately we don't have the exact stats for the Generals, so I'm not sure on how to counter that. It's mainly stating that the gap should close a bit.

I just checked, and it looks like I branched my hardmode save at the beginning of endgame. I'll see if I can't at least get endgame stats, though that'll still leave chapters 4-3 through 4-5 uncovered.

[_____]

After all, he is helping a team that lacks Authority Stars and he doesn't have the worst of Avoid in the first place.

Naesala's Authority Stars don't matter. The only person whose authority stars matter is the leader of the army, who, iirc, is Micaiah and not Naesala.

[-Cynthia-]

Naesala's Authority Stars don't matter. The only person whose authority stars matter is the leader of the army, who, iirc, is Micaiah and not Naesala.

You missed the point, which was that Naesala helps the weakest team Part 4.

[Colonel M]

Naesala's Authority Stars don't matter. The only person whose authority stars matter is the leader of the army, who, iirc, is Micaiah and not Naesala.

As in his Avoid is reliable enough to not give a damn about Authority Stars plus units being iffy on going that route if they're Avoid-light and rely a bit on Authority Stars.

[soundecho]

There is the question of Aran's concrete defenses. For example, level 20/6 (A perfectly reasonable level to be at by part 4) Aran has 24.5 Def and 35 HP. Level --/14/1 Tauroneo (Who is considered to be pretty damn durable) has 23 Def and 42 HP. And this is without considering supports. Aran (A Laura) bumps this up to 35 Hp/26 Def. Naesala does have two chapters of awesomeness against Aran, but Aran's own Part 4 isn't too shabby as long as he doesn't go into the desert.

What? He only got 5 levels in 3 chapters. There's tons of Laguz and there's skills like beastfoe and paragon going around. Something like 20/8~10 would be more reasonable.

[_____]

You missed the point, which was that Naesala helps the weakest team Part 4.

As in his Avoid is reliable enough to not give a damn about Authority Stars plus units being iffy on going that route if they're Avoid-light and rely a bit on Authority Stars.

Huh. Apparently, I did miss the point.

Ignore me, then.

What? He only got 5 levels in 3 chapters. There's tons of Laguz and there's skills like beastfoe and paragon going around. Something like 20/8~10 would be more reasonable.

And let's not forget the BEXP he uses oh so well. If Jackal can try to give Lucia a large amount of BEXP and no one cares because she's "underleveled", Aran can damn well grab some, too.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

Naesala can BEXP too. Assuming that is a Tier 3 Aran, Naesala takes less BEXP to grow in the first place.

[_____]

Aran getting to Tier 3 in Part 4 would be amazing. This is Tier 2 we're talking about. o_O

[Colonel M]

Aran getting to Tier 3 in Part 4 would be amazing. This is Tier 2 we're talking about. o_O

o_O;

Alright carry on.

EDIT: Well, it'd still work to Naesala's advantage since he isn't desiring as much BEXP to hit such a high bar.

I'll wait for Boyd vs. smashAran to get finished up, then I'll try getting Naesala above them.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheetah7071]

I've got some enemy stats for 4-E-1 and 4-E-3. Didn't bother with 4-E-2 since all that matters is the BK's stats, and got fed up with trying to get to 4-E-4 when Deg Ire'd me. The enemy stats aren't really as high quality as the ones already in the topic (I really didn't want to bother looking at every enemy, so I conflated enemies with the same level and weapon into whichever one I happened to look at first), so I didn't want to clog it up.

At any rate, the generals in 4-E-1 have 24-27 AS, with 27 being quite rare. 42-47 atk depending on the weapon. Defense hovered around 30-32, with res at 22-25. Hp had very little variation at 50-52. Accuracy was highly weapon dependant, but lowest I saw was 132, and the highest was ~170. Evasion hung out at around 75-80.

The sages had the same AS and atk, but had 41-43 hp, 18-19 def, 26-27 res, and 70-75 avo.

The bishops were truly pathetic, with 22 or so AS, 75 or so avo, def at around 15, res at around 30, and hp at 40-42, and an atk of 35 or so.

In 4-E-3, every single non-boss dragon had 12 AS. They had 56-58 atk, ~67 avo at neutral biorhythm, and 34-36 in their primary defense (def for reds and res for whites) and 18-20 in their secondary. ~164 hit at neutral biorhythm. 74-77 hp for he reds, and 68-70 for the whites.

EDIT: I went ahead and got spirit and aura stats too.

There appears to be no variation whatsoever amongst spirits of the same type.

Fire Spirits have 36 atk, 30 AS, 171 hit, 95 avo, 25 def, 30 res, and 40 hp

Thunder Spirits have 36 atk, 28 AS, 165 Hit, 86 Avo, 23 Def, 30 Res, and 39 hp

Wind Spirits have 39 atk, 30 AS, 176 Hit, 90 Avo, 23 Def, 32 Res, and 38 hp

Auras have 35 AS, 135 Avo, 30 Def, 30 Res, and 90 hp, with all their normal skills.

Edited July 10, 2009 by cheetah7071

[dondon151]

How so? I can, in a way, "duplicate" a Master Crown by simply leveling a unit past 20 (since this isn't the Japanese game we're discussing) so that the unit promotes. Energy Drops are much more limited (I can only think of two at the moment, but I'm pretty sure there's a third) and help a wider variety of units. I don't see how Crowning is taking more than an Energy Drop.

You can't "duplicate" a Master Crown. Gatrie wants to be promoted at something like --/16. If you don't use a crown, you have to give him 5 more levels, which is impossible.

If you still believe that "duplicating" a Master Crown is a legit argument, then you could "duplicate" an Energy Drop the same way that you would "duplicate" a Master Crown, that is, by pumping levels into units.

Vykan has a nice line about the effect of Gatrie's crown being cancelled out by the opportunity cost of giving it to someone else, which is an indirect way of making the silly point that these crownings are roughly equivalent, which has already been shown to be false.

Well, I don't agree with this, and I did state that they were not equivalent.

I did understand your post, you apparently did not understand mine (which may be my fault). I was making a point about how I can make up any number of absurd figures to support a point, but reality has the final say. Whether your number is 10% or 40% does not matter. Pointing out that Gatrie has a "chance" to get something is something that I find to be a dangerous argument, because if he's objectively the best use of the resource and you only give it to him half the time when he's deployed, that suggests that around half the time you're a retard.

Giving a resource only to the unit that uses it best is also a dangerous argument. This ranges from weapons to stat boosters to promotion items to unit slots. Under this assumption, worse units get literally nothing and can't possibly display their actual potential.

I prefer to use the chance to get a resource as a weighting factor, but to use the resource reasonably in calculations. AKA, take into account that Gatrie's use of the crown has an opportunity cost, but give it to him in a comparison. I feel that using units stupidly undermines the point of tier lists.

OK then. I was under the impression that people were denying Ulki his Energy Drop, since it's much the same way.

This is not really a good analogy if I understand my Seal mechanics correctly, as they apply to FE10 crowns.

This is addressed above. Saying that you could mimick the effects of a Master Crown means nothing because that unit does not want to promote past level 20; that unit wanted to promote 5 or more levels ago.

I am arguing about the magnitude of this likelyhood. If it's not sufficiently smaller than a crown, Ulki still loses because of availibility. Follow?

Yeah, sure.

[CT075]

What? He only got 5 levels in 3 chapters. There's tons of Laguz and there's skills like beastfoe and paragon going around. Something like 20/8~10 would be more reasonable.

This is helping my case even more...

[Colonel M]

Alright, just a quick overview:

- If Naesala does not have SS Strike, he 4HKOes Generals. As for Tibarn, he can't 2HKO some Generals (like those with 50 HP / 32 Def, you get the point right?). If Naesala does get SS Strike he 3HKOes at worst like Tibarn.

BTW, for Naesala BEXP-wise Str is his 3rd highest growth, so he has a decent chance of +1 on that sometimes if applied BEXP.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheetah7071]

Alright, just a quick overview:

- If Naesala does not have SS Strike, he 4HKOes Generals. As for Tibarn, he can't 2HKO some Generals (like those with 50 HP / 32 Def, you get the point right?). If Naesala does get SS Strike he 3HKOes at worst like Tibarn.

BTW, for Naesala BEXP-wise Str is his 3rd highest growth, so he has a decent chance of +1 on that sometimes if applied BEXP.

Yeah, I just played through that chapter, and Tibarn missed a few ORKOs.

EDIT: added spirit and aura stats above.

Edited July 10, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, I should probably just leave this, but I kind of feel like if I did I'd be ignoring all your hard work in your 2 (3) posts.

Enough about crowns, the word itself is making me noxious. The whole issue of Gatrie using a crown is actually a pretty minor point in regards to the full Gatrie vs hawks comparison. If you buy that energy drops are less competed for than a crown for instance, then this whole elaboration was wasted breath (relatively speaking Int).

Yeah, that's great for you. I don't really buy that energy drops are less competed for. So while I do understand that you might be getting sick of it, I still think some of your points were stuff I can't leave as is.

I don't have the mental bandwidth to get into the argument between Narga and Vykan.

If you don't think you'd have fun I won't request it, but don't feel like I wouldn't want you chipping in. Even if you go against some of my points, I don't mind. It might help me make them stronger.

No it doesn’t. If there are 99 units who can use a resource equally well and a 100th unit who can use it 5% more proficiently, then the fact that the 100th unit makes the best use of the resource is negligible at best. That’s of course an exaggeration of the facts but the same general concept applies here.

That's...not how opportunity cost works. Opportunity cost is solely the value of the next best alternative forgone as the result of making a decision. Nothing more, nothing less. Thus, if we can create a scale and place #1 and #2 on that scale, the opportunity cost is whatever value #2 earns, and net gain is #1 - #2.

When talking about what we get out of something, we can call it utility. Thus, we can create a scale and say that Doritos is worth 8, Caramilk is worth 5, and Junior Mints is worth 4, and say these all cost the same to actually purchase and for whatever reason we can only afford one of these things. Thus, Doritos is worth 8 utils, Caramilk 5, and Junior Mints 4. The opportunity cost of getting Doritos is 5 utils, because that is the value of the next best alternative forgone. So, we can say net gain of getting Doritos is 3 utils. We actually have a net loss of -3 utils if we get Caramilk, and -4 if we get Junior Mints.

It wouldn't actually matter if there are 5 billion other choices that we can afford with whatever money can get us Doritos. If not one of those choices gave us more than 5 utils, the opportunity cost of getting Doritos is always 5 and our net gain is always 3. We do not add up the utils from the other choices and subtract that from best choice. No one would ever be able to make a decision if we did things that way.

Now, in real life we wouldn't always get Doritos, but that's because 8 is not a static number in real life. As we get Doritos more and more, we might get somewhat sick of Doritos and thus the next purchase of Doritos only gives us, say, 4 utils after 2 months of getting Doritos every day. At this point we stop getting Doritos because Caramilk gives us a positive net gain. After 5 playthroughs we might get sick of using Gatrie, but the game mechanics are static and so while we might want to do something different for once, that shouldn't affect the tier list.

if he's objectively the best use of the resource and you only give it to him half the time when he's deployed, that suggests that around half the time you're a retard.

I think that's a decent summary. It's more debatable when things are actually close, but when they aren't, ^

One of the main problems with your crowning analysis is your comparing crown!Gatrie to crown!other units. The problem is if Gatrie >>> Oscar before a crown, he’s still going to be much better when both are raised a crown, so that comparison doesn’t truly reflect the change in performance for those units individually. Another is that you're not considering the dramatic effect it has to wait just 2 chapters before using that crown you got in 3-3. Sure, Gatrie could've used it more or less immediately, but then the effect on the other crowned unit is probably big enough to compensate for that, at least somewhat.

And my issue with your point of view is that crowned Oscar vs. non crowned Oscar is silly. While Mia is actually gimped by early crowning pretty hard, other units might actually see some meager benefit, but that still doesn't matter. I admit it might be difficult assigning utils or whatever to what we gain through each crowning, but we can't merely look at what a unit gains. I know Int doesn't like hypotheticals, but I need to make a point about the principle of the situation.

If I had:

1. a unit who is ORKOd by everything and 6RKOs in return, and I could give him an item that makes him 3RKOd by everything and 2RKOs in return, I would triple his durability and triple his offence.

2. a unit who is 5RKOd by everything and 2RKOs in return, and I could give him an item that makes him 7RKOd by everything and 1RKOs in return, I would increase his durability by 40% and double his offence.

3. Most other units already 2RKO enemies and are 3RKOd in return, and giving them this item doesn't change their offence and makes their durability 4RKOd.

Unit 1 has the biggest increases, even over unit 2, but never actually gives me something I don't already have in abundance, but unit 2 actually gives me something I don't have, namely a unit that can 1RKO and can now safely be sent against 6 enemies whereas before the best I could do anywhere is one unit that can safely go against 4 enemies and nobody could ever 1RKO.

The principle is, Unit 2 is the only unit in this scenario worth giving the magic item. Unit 1 may see a better individual increase, but since now he is merely one among many and I still don't have anything better in the army than I had before, there is little point in giving this item to Unit 1. It might make this 1 unit better, but it won't significantly improve my army.

If you disagree with this principle and think unit 1 is deserving of this item, then I don't think I could ever convince you that Gatrie is virtually entitled to the crown any time he is used.

Obviously, the problem with making up hypotheticals is that they don't directly apply to the actual situation at hand. I'm not making up the hypothetical to prove Gatrie deserves a crown, I'm making it up to enhance the Doritos/Caramilk example. I'm basically trying to show that in Fire Emblem, Doritos is not necessarily the unit that gains the most individually. If some other unit can be proven to be Doritos, then fine. The idea, though, is that individual improvement is secondary to the improvement of the team.

Which is why I am trying to show that Gatrie changes our army's entire situation in ways that the others don't. I have to compare crowned Oscar + uncrowned Gatrie + army vs. crowned Gatrie + uncrowned Oscar + army. If I compare anything else, the next scream won't be math in its death throws , but Economics (Of course, math already died on page 61, unless Int and I saved it). It is irrelevant how much improvement crowning Oscar has over non crowned Oscar because the only thing that matters is does it make my team better to have a crowned Oscar with a non-crowned Gatrie than my team would be with a crowned Gatrie and a non-crowned Oscar. Looking at anything else is just red herrings, distractions, and side points that don't deal with the issue at hand.

Oh yeah, if we wait just one chapter, we can add the entire CRK BEXP supply to the GMs, so a total of 34650 is available. Now even Ulki’s only using 25% of it.

Um, we don't get the CRK bexp supply until 3-11 starts, and 2-P to 2-3's bexp should've been spent in 2-E to make it easier and improve the performance of units that go from there to the GMs. That way we get the benefit from the bexp in 2-E, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, and aren't saving it for 3-11. All we are getting is 2-E's and 3-9's, and we might even have spent a bit in 3-9, though not necessarily. Besides, even if we did save all the bexp that could've helped us in 8 chapters it isn't now, Ulki would still be without Tear in 3-7, 3-8, and 3-10. Considering all he has left at this point is ~6 chapters with which to wield Tear (using Int's 4-E = 2 chapters thing), I don't see how he could make those 6 chapters > Gatrie's many more chapters, and he likely isn't coming close to beating Gatrie in 3-7, 3-8, 3-10 without it.

If we’re arguing Gatrie vs a specific hawk, why would we assume the other one is necessarily in play? If we’re talking about Ulki for instance, I’m not punishing him for whatever amount of BEXP Janaff uses. Should we start punishing Gatrie for the amount of BEXP Neph uses?

I don't know, I kind of want to. Gatrie shouldn't have access in 3-11 to the bexp from 2-3 because it was better spent on Neph in 2-E to make her double stuff and help us out. And she would have more speed in 3-2 and beyond to double there, too. Similarly, since Janaff gets to Tear much more cheaply than Ulki does, if I want 1 guy with Tear it should be Janaff. If I want 2 guys with Tear, then sure, it can be Ulki, but then Janaff's already spent a fair amount.

If you’re intentionally slowplaying a character then you can basically control their CEXP to as close to a level up as you want. At that point, the BEXP they use is pretty negligible.

We still need to finish the chapters in 10 turns, or however many. Ike shouldn't be slowplayed in 3-5, for example, since he is really helpful going to the boss and depending on his current level will likely get a level and then some on the way to the boss. If he gets to 80, great, but if he gets to 40 I still want to boost his speed so I will. Stopping him from getting a level just makes the chapter that much harder. I can't cut everyone off at 90 and finish the chapter with a Mist/Rolf combo (tried it on NM a bit, good times) so there's going to be some people who level. I reduce the amount of bexp because some get to 80, and some get a level and get to like 10 so I don't let them have any because it'd be too expensive, but things happen. Bexp will not be negligible, in fact it can be a lot at times, but getting Ike speed is worth it because he needs speed for more than just 1 or 2 fights, he needs it to double warriors and other stuff all the way to the end of the game.

It would probably be significantly lower than that the farther you get in part 4 due to units levelling faster than enemies and BEXP ramming is only effective in late second tier (usually 20/15 onwards).

Take a lv --/17 Mia in 3-11 for instance. Enemy levels average to about 13-14 so she’s only gaining 3-4 exp per hit/14-16 exp per kill (source). She needs a good 11 kills per map to maintain that 1.6 levels per chapter rate you’re suggesting, which is essentially 20% of the map’s total enemies. In an army of 10 units, that’s twice what you’d expect of the average unit, which is rather lofty.

Um, by 3-11 we should be focusing on endgame team as much as possible to boost their level. An army of 10 units should be ~6 units fighting seriously and the other 4 helping to finish the chapter where necessary. Well, that of course depends on how much of the endgame team will be from the GMs. If you aren't bringing Jill, Nolan, royals, Elincia, Zihark, Volug, Skrimir, a few others maybe to endgame, then sure we might be using 10 units. But since Ike is likely already level 20 that means of those 10 units you are raising equally, every single one of them should go to endgame.

And honestly, it is more trouble to prevent Mia from killing 11 guys than it is to actually give her that many. If she still has Adept and you dump her in front of a few enemies every other turn, she can do it rather easily. If you only average 2 enemies per turn between player phase and enemy phase, since she kills 3 out of 5 she gets 11 kills already.

I think I gave her a steel sword at times (4HKO some things) and a steel blade others (maybe her forge against generals, but I think I just had Ike and Haar say hi to them), and she still up and leveled on me. She was lvl 19 at the beginning and that chapter is tightly packed with enemies, so I should've known in advance, but it was annoying. I think she got at least 40 more afterwards. Possibly more. She might have even promoted if I let her use her forge a bit, and the steel blade the rest of the time. Put her in the path of a few enemies whenever possible and she just won't understand the idea of slowplaying anymore.

I just tested out untransformed CEXP gain with Skrimir and Naesala in 4-P and both of them got 15. Using the HM exp calculations yields 9 for Skrimir and 8 for Naesala respectively, so there has to be a bonus that’s unaccounted for. I think it’s a safe guess that either hawk is getting >10 CEXP from untransformed counters, and that obviously compounds over time, especially if a kill was tacked in there somewhere.

Really? Wow. Who knew? Oh well, learn something new every day. That changes things a bit, but not much, though.

Anywyay, in 1-8 he starts transformed and late. He won't even start attacking until turn 3 or 4. He likely won't untransform if we grass him and if he does untransform, he needs a grasses or a two turns before he transforms again (if we revert him with less than 22 gauge remaining.) So we can let him punch something twice, but then he was mostly useless for those two punches. With 96 avo he has a good shot at dodges a few hits while doing this, and with enemies having 20 to 40 hit against him and a fair number 4HKOing and others 3HKOing it might be reasonable to let him go against 4 at once, the trouble is that he is doing far less damage to them that enemy phase than another unit could have, which slows us down. He has 22 mt untransformed so while Generals mean he doesn't need grass anymore because he got gauge, it also means he only got 1 exp against them. And since he isn't doubling he did like <8 damage to the rest.

Still, if we let him try he can get to 40 or so in a few hits, but the opportunity cost is gonna be pretty high. I'm not actually sure what the best alternative foregone is, though, in this case: Whether it is letting him fight those things transformed or letting someone else do it. Either way, it is probably higher than what we get out of it.

And he isn't killing stuff easily while untransformed. Anything with that low hp usually runs to the nearest priest or might even get healed before attacking so Ulki is only getting a kill if the guy:

isn't in range of a physic priest

can't run away to a vulnerary/concotion guy

can't attack something that won't kill him

Which means we had to arrange stuff just to feed him a kill, and it takes a fair amount more work than it does feeding kills to something that can actually attack on player phase.

Presumably you crown someone who has very little to lose from the remaining level-ups they have left in second tier. In addition, they actually make long term gains in uncapping important stats earlier, and there’s no denying the short term benefits of crowning are colossal. In other words, basically everyone I already mentioned.

Or we crown someone who makes the team better than they would be with anyone else getting the crown. Using general phrases like that and pointing out that everyone gets huge short term benefits is ignoring the possibility of the existence of Doritos. (yes, it's a theme, and ironically my preference list is in the opposite order)

If he has a B Shinon support by then, he’ll actually have 45hp/28 def/14 res/83 avo for durability #s. A 3-5 steel blade!paladin does a whopping 4 damage (12HKO) while the second most powerful enemy in the level (a steel poleax!paladin) pulls 8 damage (6HKO) with only 18.30 real hit. Still sounds like a brick wall to me.

Brick wall that needs to be healed almost every turn we stand him in front of stuff. When we cross the river in 3-7 to Zihark's island a guy can be attacked by 4 or 5 pretty easy. In 3-5 we can get swarmed by 4 paladins and a couple of warriors in one turn down the middle, plus a thunder sage thrown in to be rude. In 3-4 there's a lot of enemies near the top and it can be beneficial for Gatrie to not need healing once during that time. By 3-10 with his defence growth he likely covers the def loss by then, but not the res loss.

Basically, there are times where it is preferable to be able to send a Gatrie in that can go 3 or 4 rounds without healing. Really though, increased durability is a side benefit to increased offence.

I’ll give you that he survives sages better with a crown, but so does anyone else who takes one. See, most people get +4 hp/+4 res upon promotion, which is a massive durability boon against mag based enemies.

Sure, but how many times is there just mag based enemies? Giving Gatrie the crown means he no longer cares what the configuration is made of.

The 3-5 ones have 27 atk, so even if Gatrie is unsupported, he’s taking a massive 1 damage, 3 if he’s critted.

Yeah, I'm more worried about the 30 mt steel blade swordmasters if he's unsupported. 9 damage is effectively equivalent to the damage the rest of the guys are doing and means that unless we want the potential of whining about RNG screwage, we need to treat them like the rest of the enemies in our calculating his chances of survival. He's still going to be one of the best guys to use against them, though, so I admit it is a minor gripe.

2 rounding offence =/= suckage, especially when more than half your cast suffers the same fate for a good portion of part 3. Granted, he does go from 2 rounding -> 1 rounding quite a few enemy types, but many units are still competitive in the offensive boosts they get from a crown anyway.

Having a guy go from 3 or 4 rounding to 2 rounding is not as good as going from 2 rounding to 1 rounding. Since you pointed out how so many guys already 2 round, what's the point in getting another one?

In her case, even promoting her at lv 20 has a pretty significant benefit since now she gets promo bonuses and sol a good 1-2 chapters before she normally would.

So, shaving 1-2 chapters from Titania is greater than shaving 3 or 4 chapters from someone else? Is she doing so much more with 2 extra chapters of tier 3 than another guy is with 4 extra chapters of tier 3? Heck, with the bexp you are dumping into Ulki, just promote her that way.

Titania only has 23 AS at lv 20, so she’s doubling as consistently as second tier Gatrie is, which I gather isn’t very much :P. The second crown shows up in 3-11, so if Titania promotes in 3-8 or 3-10 naturally, then that would be the only period of time where your statement holds true. In other words, we can have one killing machine or the other, not both, with the exception of maybe 1-3 chapters.

She can take a speedwing. I mentioned it. 5 times, in fact. Well, the word is there in the Titania part 5 times. I didn't reread to see what was said. This sentence is an example:

So Titania with a speedwing already doubles pretty much anything we want her to, and since she needs that speedwing to match Gatrie's offence regardless of crowning, crowning does diddly for her offence.

Now, admittedly this ignores how between lvl 18 and bexping like 20 points to lvl 19 she is looking at 24 speed and yelling at us for not crowning her, but we can ignore her for this time period because 80 exp for her is a lot less time than 6 more levels for Gatrie (15 to 20/1). Remember, without the wing in the first place she needed to wait until lvl 19 minimum to crown anyway. Plus this way when she promotes she'll have 27 speed and be set until 4-1. It would've taken until 19/5 to get that kind of speed without a wing, and I don't think she'd make that by 4-1 and she needs 29 speed there anyway (25 spd warriors). This way I don't think she can either, but I think 28 for the halbs is more possible this way than crowning early.

At any rate, yes I agree Titania is probably one of the weaker crown candidates on that list but she’s still there regardless.

If she's one of the weaker crown candidates, how is she "still there regardless"? I mean sure, she exists, but crowning her is nuts. Since her opportunity cost is higher than her benefit, she is a net negative. ie: Caramilk. Heck, if Gatrie is Doritos then I don't think she'd even rank as high as Junior Mints.

The point of crowning Soren is entirely staves. He basically replaces Rhys as a healbot and does a much better job at it due to getting 2-3RKOed as opposed to frequently 1RKOed, not to mention better ranged output and supports we don’t necessarily want to throw away in the long run.

We already have Rhys though. If we can't protect Rhys then we should pack up now. Besides, with mend or recover Mist is fine anyway. If we have more than one healer getting attacked, we suck. Healer walks up, heals. Healed unit runs up and kills stuff. Other units kill stuff. Now nobody can attack healer. Mission accomplished. Frankly, the only times Mist gets attacked is when I figured why not? (I had Rhys, Soren, Mist, and Shinon take out the generals in 3-5 with just a little help from Haar, cause I'm nuts.) Otherwise, they shouldn't be attacked.

Wut? Are you saying Oscar’s avo is so high that enemies won’t even attack him? This isn’t FE4, and I’m fairly certain enemies look at concrete durability more than avo when prioritizing targets.

Concrete durability isn't the only thing they look at. Besides, 21 def is better than some of his potential supports, and so is his 44.5 hp. But if you can I'd like you to try something in 4-E-4. You need 11 units that have 1-2 range, plus your heron. There is a diamond of wardwood tiles near the top that you can stick those 12 characters on. See who gets attacked. By the way, when I did this Kurth got attacked and he was taking no damage. I had a bunch of people with ~20 (+10) res on those tiles, so they would've taken ~6 from fire/thunder and ~9 from wind. And Kurth wasn't getting doubled (don't ask, I did something silly cause I could) so they don't just like attacking things they double. Whether it was because he did low damage in return, or because his laguz level was lower than the rest of my team or what I don't know.

The point is, Oscar will be --/??/1 or higher, and enemies would rather fight the --/13 unit you've got next to him. Especially if the other unit can't do as much damage in return.

Sure it is, because those atk values you listed are enormous. There’s only 1 enemy in 4-2 with 46 atk, and even the 40 atk benchmark is about as rare aside from warriors, but those usually have laughable hit rates anyway (a poleax one probably pulls ~28 display on him unsupported).

typo. Seriously, I know since it was my typo and all that makes it my fault, but Oscars hp/def were right there in my post. The calculation isn't that hard. Basically 32 mt 4HKOs and 36 mt 3HKOs. Calculate the % of enemies that have that in 3-8.

Why’s that an issue? Forges are a financial strain only, and most people here seem to agree that money isn’t an issue in any part of the game.

One forge isn't, but he needs a +5 mt forge and if we want him to have a shot at ORKOing generals he can't touch use hammer so he needs crit to. Even if we ignore crit, 3360 gold each. With crit, 5760 gold. He buys a fair number if we want him to ORKO stuff, and he'll still fail to kill a ton of things with that 39 mt so we might want him to have that crit for them, too.

If Oscar’s supports can’t keep up with him, I can’t see how anyone else can either, so him 2RKOing would be much more forgivable. Let’s say he weakened 3 enemies before Ike and Boyd could reach those enemies. Now Oscar can kill one of those 3 enemies and canto off while Boyd and Ike finish off the remaining 2. The effect is largely similar to having a lower move unit simply 1RKO those 3 enemies to begin with.

How many times will a unit using 9 move only be in range of 3 enemies? He is now 4HKOd by the majority of the map, those that don't are balanced by those that 3HKO to reach an average of 4HKO. He'll be facing >40% hit rates by most of these, so with 5 enemies he needs to be healed, and since he is so far into enemy territory he can run back to his healer, or his healer can run forward and we might just have to wall or something. Plus, if that healer healed Oscar before he ran ahead, either Oscar runs back or the healer burns a physic. (We have ~11 uses from 3-2 until 3-11 because Elincia probably used it ~4 times in 2-E and the first physic that doesn't need to be disarmed before getting stolen is the guy in 3-10 that is likely to be the last unit killed.)

Oscar’s other option would be to restrict his move a little so that his supports can keep up, and now his atk is respectable again. With B Mordy, he has 40 atk, the same as Janaff’s base.

Woot, he now has +1 mov over Gatrie over time, unless he supports Mordy. He just needs a C for that 40 mt, by the way, but since Mordy is around only in 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E, he's looking at A rank by part 4 so he's stuck at 40 mt with a 35% str growth and really slow leveling until part 4 or he manages to pull off a str on level up.

With a 3-2 joiner, he gets 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, likely reaching A by 3-10 or 3-11. Keep in mind he can't climb in 3-4 and can't cross the river in 3-7. If he takes Soren/Rhys, then 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, and he can have it in 3-7 or 3-8, but again there's that 3-4 thing, so 3-8 is most reasonable. But Soren and Rhys have Gatrie's move so he is now averaging Gatrie's move. All he's got left is Canto-ing a couple spaces forward to attack then back to get to his support.

(40 mt even starts missing some paladins in 3-11, by the way. Halbs have been laughing at 40 mt since 3-8. So Mordy doesn't give him what he needs to ORKO even if it lets him run further.)

A support grows at slowest every 2 chapters for me, so that seems a bit off. A Brom/Heather would’ve been done by 3-8, if not sooner. Also, Oscar with Boyd/Mia/Mist isn’t inconceivable.

Brom/Heather is done by 3-11 because of his limitations in 3-4 and 3-7, unless we held back Brom/Heather. It still fixes some issues in 3-11, though.

Your issue with giving Oscar a regular weapon was that it caused hit rate issues. Ironically enough, the same is true of Gatrie. If we crown him at the earliest possible moment (--/15/0), he now has 78 base hit to Oscar’s 84, and Oscar also has a 65% higher hit growth. I guess the silver poleax does have +10 hit on the silver greatlance, but even considering that, they’d still more or less tie overall hit rate.

With a steel axe Gatrie has 40 mt and 151 hit. A forge with +2 mt and +2 hit costs 1152, giving him 42 mt and 161 hit, more hit than Steel Greatlance Oscar and 4 more mt, allowing ORKOing everything that isn't a general or a swordmaster. Even 3-7s dragonmasters die from this, if I really want to. ORKOing the later dragonmasters is a bit harder, but oh well, Oscar isn't doing as much against them anyway.

He can almost get three of these forges for the cost of Oscar's one super lance. And that's without giving Oscar crit to offset his mt woes.

It would be up to 43/36 respectively since hand weapons are forgable, and it’s a pretty wise investment to make. Adding 2 Mt alone only increases the cost by 40%, which is simply 240 extra gold.

You know I brought that up in the following paragraph, where I said:

Fast forward to forges, and Gatrie has 43 mt, ORKOing everything not a general, and Oscar has 36 mt, again, only ORKOing mages and priests. And unlike Shinon, he doesn't even have doubling swordmasters to show for it.

Gatrie could actually cheap out and only make a +3 forge and the skill difference between the two people is partly covered by the difference between hand axes and javelins, so he needs +5 hit over Oscar's to make about the same hit. And if you can find a way for Gatrie's support partner to be nearby and still have the enemies attack Gatrie then he's looking at +7 hit on Oscar (possibly +8 or +15 depending on each of their supports, or even +0 I suppose)

Evidently Oscar’s 2 rounding a lot more than Gatrie is with hand weapons but he’s also reaching targets sooner (he’s a full turn ahead of him in just 2 moves), which heavily offsets that.

Oscar doesn't need a crown to get to targets sooner. He'll be better when he gets there with a crown than without, but given enemy concentration in 3-5 and his ledge woes in 3-4 and his river woes in 3-7, his movement range doesn't really matter in any of those chapters. And we can steal a crown in 3-7 if we really want to crown Oscar after his biggest part 3 issues are over. Heck, in 3-8 he has 1 move on Gatrie so he really only gets to exert the full force of that movement range for ONE chapter (3-10) before the 3-11 crown is available naturally. With all his other issues, giving Oscar a crown before 3-10 is a funny thought, and Oscar's movement in one chapter can't possibly be greater than Gatrie's 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-8 wins against Oscar when we are comparing crowned capabilities.

I suppose I should really touch on whether uncrowned Gatrie > uncrowned Oscar by enough to offset how much crowned Gatrie > crowned Oscar, but since uncrowned Oscar gets more speed and a few levels while actually getting good experience to try to nab some strength, uncrowned Oscar is at times performing better than uncrowned Gatrie, so they are way closer in performance than crowned Gatrie vs. crowned Oscar.

Oh, that is important since we are dealing with crowned Gatrie + uncrowned Oscar vs. crowned Oscar + uncrowned Gatrie.

Since c G >>> c O, and u O ~= u G,

therefore cG + uO > cO + uG.

Pretty simple there. Even if uG > uO, it isn't by enough to offset cG > cO.

And that's not even bringing up how with a bit of slowplaying Oscar could have 3 more str before promoting if we take him up to level 20 and let him promote naturally. His 20/1 str is 26.75 this way, whereas with a 17/1 Oscar he has 23.75 str and won't get to 25.85 until 17/7 (.9 less, 26.55 takes until 17/9!), and I think it should be rather obvious that Oscar is reaching 20/1 long before he gets to 17/7, even accounting for his slightly increased performance in that time.

All Gatrie gets by going to level 20 first is a bit more skl/lck/def, but I think it's fairly obvious that a +2mt/+10hit steel axe fixes most of Gatrie's hit issues in part 3 and those are dirt cheap, and that 29 def is plenty. With his growth he'll do fine in part 4 as far as def is concerned.

I know you said you were sick of crowns, but Haar is really a much better candidate than Oscar. By a lot. This game hates paladins that much. (3-4 and 3-7, I'm talking to you.)

Nullify. Nobody wants it in part 3. The only competition for it is Haar, but his issue is more with mages having crit rates on him than the actual damage they do. Jump to part 4, I guess Naesala could use it to ph33r crossbows less in 4-3, but that’s the extent of it. There’s only 1 bowgun in 4-2 for Elincia to worry about and she’s probably healing most of the time anyway. The only other area in the game with major bow threats is 4-E-2, but Ike can choose to beat the chapter whenever he pleases, so it barely matters.

Well, we don't have to sell ashera icons. One enemy group for one unit is probably not worth losing the 4000, though. We can't give it to both Hawks, though. We can't act like they can both have it even though they get argued separately. It just seems wrong. Still, let them have it and they still have the other issues.

Oh, and speaking of crossbows, if you can get one of your hawks to survive a hit, they can then take an herb and go wrath crazy the remainder of the chapter. This is especially true of Ulki, who with an A Janaff support has 140+ avo and a low amplitude biorhythm wave. The amount of enemies in part 3 with >140 hit can probably be counted on 1 finger, and a lot of them are non-threatening enemies like ellight bishops.

Um, Janaff ORKOs most things with 42 might, and 1 str isn't too hard to get when it is his 4th best growth. If you hate resets, though, it seems a shame when he is mostly just missing halbs and generals. Wrath likely isn't doing much good on anyone else, though, but Mordy could put it to use in conjunction with resolve. Janaff only has 70-45=25 capacity left, so he can't combine wrath with anything that is also 15 or more, but that mostly just means no smite, celerity, pass, of the 15 cap skills most likely going to him. Although Adept lets him ORKO anything he 3HKOs an alarming amount of the time when combined with his Tear, but wrath might be better since no one else wants it and Adept could go to better use than 2 enemy types.

As for Ulki, he only survives because I'm assuming resets for defence. If he gets no def in his 2 bexp level ups, since it is his tied for his 4th best stat, he needs the draco shield or the nullify. And since his Tear is 64% with +2 speed from the bexp levels (it's his 2nd best growth), he's looking at an amazing chance of ORKOing everything anyway. So wrath doesn't help much. And again, with 25 capacity nullify means he has enough left for Miracle. Whoopie. So nullify means no adept, which means 64% is still pretty good but now Mia has just lost her only reasonable competition for the thing in 3-8 and 3-10.

And if we do give either a draco shield to avoid the skill loss and give them wrath, and give the other nullify, Gatrie just lost some of that competition for celerity (which also takes up one of Ilyana's slots, by the way, making it harder to take the 1-2 drop with her).

And we are still giving up a draco for 1 enemy type in a few maps and wrath that they barely put to use. I'll grant nobody but Mordy puts it to more use, though. And if we boost his 38 mt, he needs it a bit less. He, however, isn't getting a mastery any time soon.

Well, I'll get to Jill and other drop candidates later, and the rest of your two posts. I ate up the time I had typing this.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Naesala isn't getting SS strike until like 4-E-2 or 4-E-3. That's a LOT of attacks, you know. It's 80 hits, which is at LEAST 40 rounds of combat, and usually more, because if he gets a tear on the first attack, which has like a 42% chance of happening, the enemy gets OHKO'd and that's only one hit.

I still think Naesala does pretty well against generics on offense even without SS strike, because his activation rate for his mastery alone is ridiculous, and if we throw in adept it just gets even funnier. Something like 66.4% chance just for a tear at neutral bio at base level, and with both tear and adept, 88.7% for one to go off. The big thing I'd say Tibarn has over Naesala is being able to handle the bosses better, since Degh has ridiculous def (Naesala needs 4 more att just to damage him, while Tibarn at base level is doing double 6s), in addition to better durability which helps against generics and such (8 HP/6 def/5 avo vs 8 res at their base levels. Of course Naesala gains levels faster, but his HP/def growths are ass, so he's going to be losing overall).

I personally think Tibarn and Naesala are even outside of 4-E. True, Naesala's 4-3 is harder than Tibarn's 4-5, but Tibarn's 4-2 is harder than Naesala's 4-P (4-2 has reinforcements that are spread out over the entire map, plus are a fairly high level when compared to 4-P and 4-1 enemies IIRC. 4-P is loladin swarm). Thus Tibarn's superior 4-E gives him the win, although I do think Naesala and Tibarn should be closer.

Upper Mid tier is pretty messy in general though, since if I were in control of the tier list, I would move around basically everyone, including moving Mist/Heather/Cain/Giffca up from mid.

[Jaybee]

Upper Mid tier is pretty messy in general though, since if I were in control of the tier list, I would move around basically everyone, including moving Mist/Heather/Cain/Giffca up from mid.

I found Upper Mid quite okay.

Also, add Rhys in that list :D

[Vykan12]

Upper Mid tier is pretty messy in general though

You seem to think every tier is messy to some degree.

@Narga: freoutg9034tgjio4lbmfgklbhfgukhu I don't have time for posts that enormous, expect a very concise response.

[Colonel M]

I wouldn't call that "lolalidan" chapter too easy though. Remember that even though we have good units on the field permenantly like Naesala and Skrimir, we still have to protect units such as Leanne, Sanaki, Miccy, and Sothe to an extent (I dunno about Sigrun so I'll be borderline with that). Miccy at least has ThaniBomb, but she still can't stay in range with them since they still have Canto.

I can see how Tibarn's 4-2 is a bit more dangerous in terms of numbers, but I don't think it's a "major" victory for him. Not that I'm saying Naesala > Tibarn in the first place (I'll admit Tibarn's 4-E is a bit better), but yeah just shows how the gap should close a little. Like I said, I'll wait for the Aran and Boyd situation to be resolved then see what arguments I can make for Naesala.

[Vykan12]

How do you calculate enemy luck in this game? Is it just 21 x their luck growth? The site doesn't list their bases.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Vykan12

[Narga_Rocks]

I wouldn't call that "lolalidan" chapter too easy though. Remember that even though we have good units on the field permenantly like Naesala and Skrimir, we still have to protect units such as Leanne, Sanaki, Miccy, and Sothe to an extent (I dunno about Sigrun so I'll be borderline with that). Miccy at least has ThaniBomb, but she still can't stay in range with them since they still have Canto.

Plus anyone who is 4HKOd by them is at risk most of the time unless you place your units just right, which'll make it go slower. And with no authority stars the unit is more likely to get hit. If all you are using is Skrimir, Naesala, Haar, or something like that, then they don't have to worry, 6 or 7 or more HKOd is usually fine. But if you are trying to raise units that can reach 34 speed, they need to be rather careful since most of them lack defence. With the reinforcements that keep coming from the top, and the already existing paladins in the middle, if you get a bit of bad luck even 5HKOd units might die since there can be 6 at once sometimes.

Well, if you are trying to do this chapter quickly, anyway. Doing it slowly can make a 4HKOd unit only ever face 3 enemies, if you really want. It would be easier to finish in 10 turns the slow way if not for the reinforcements on turn 9 in the northeast, the farthest point from the start.

Oh, about Sigrun, 38 hp and 23 def at 19/1 or 20/1 means that she is 4HKOd on average by the paladins, and her avo is 80 or 81 + supports, so a B Tanith if possible is 38 hp, 24 def, 95/96 avo. Still 4HKOd on average, 5HKOd if she gets the right combination, and with 40 to 50 listed hit by most of them. And that's if you managed to promote her. There's a fair number of 3HKOs from paladins if she isn't promoted, and 2HKOs from warriors and generals. And if she doesn't have B Tanith there is also a much better chance of getting hit, too, promoted or not, since it goes above 50 for some enemies, now.

~10% chance of death from 4 enemies is not helpful. Higher chance from more enemies.

Just because Paladins have low AS doesn't mean they aren't dangerous to some units.

[dondon151]

When talking about what we get out of something, we can call it utility. Thus, we can create a scale and say that Doritos is worth 8, Caramilk is worth 5, and Junior Mints is worth 4, and say these all cost the same to actually purchase and for whatever reason we can only afford one of these things. Thus, Doritos is worth 8 utils, Caramilk 5, and Junior Mints 4. The opportunity cost of getting Doritos is 5, because that is the value of the next best alternative forgone. So, we can say net gain of getting Doritos is 3. We actually have a net loss of -3 if we get Caramilk, and -4 if we get Junior Mints.

It wouldn't actually matter if there are 5 billion other choices that we can afford with whatever money can get us Doritos. If not one of those choices gave us more that 5 utils, the opportunity cost of getting Doritos is always 5 and our net gain is always 3. We do not add up the utils from the other choices and subtract that from best choice. No one would ever be able to make a decision if we did things that way.

You haven't seen or bothered to address my comparison of the 3-3 crown to FE11 Master Seals (or promotion items in any other FE game). Better units don't always get resources, such as promotion items, weapons, supports, unit slots, etc.

I'm going to eschew the FE10 tier list for a little bit because there's way too many characters on split routes and stuff. I'll use the FE9 tier list for this example. The top 13 characters are all in high tier and above, which is conveniently around the number of deployment slots that the player gets by lategame. The rest of the cast in upper mid and below, if deployed, therefore take away unit slots from the top 13 characters, resulting in negative utility since the opportunity cost outweighs the returns. By your logic, the characters in upper mid and below should never be deployed.

Debating the tier list requires assumptions. You have to assume that a bottom tier unit is being played. You have to assume that a resource is going to a certain character even if another could make more use out of it. You have to assume that a support works in a certain way. You can't get hung up all over opportunity costs that render the point of comparisons useless because there's little point in comparing which negative is marginally better than other negatives when the ideal player doesn't want to deal with any of that.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm going to eschew the FE10 tier list for a little bit because there's way too many characters on split routes and stuff. I'll use the FE9 tier list for this example. The top 13 characters are all in high tier and above, which is conveniently around the number of deployment slots that the player gets by lategame. The rest of the cast in upper mid and below, if deployed, therefore take away unit slots from the top 13 characters, resulting in negative utility since the opportunity cost outweighs the returns. By your logic, the characters in upper mid and below should never be deployed.

Debating the tier list requires assumptions. You have to assume that a bottom tier unit is being played. You have to assume that a resource is going to a certain character even if another could make more use out of it. You have to assume that a support works in a certain way. You can't get hung up all over opportunity costs that render the point of comparisons useless because there's little point in comparing which negative is marginally better than other negatives when the ideal player doesn't want to deal with any of that.

I'm perfectly fine with choosing to use one unit rather than another. My problem is, once you've chosen the 10 guys you are going to use, why not use all 10 of these guys in the best way possible? If we are using Gatrie anyway, and there is no one who better uses the Crown, then giving it to anyone else makes my life more difficult than it already was. And since debating Gatrie means we are using him, what's the problem?

Further, if one unit grabs a certain support and demolishes with it, and another grabs that support and switches from mediocre to decent, then as long as the performance on the whole is better what's the problem.

Unit A with support + unit B without support v. Unit A without support + unit B with support.

Which one is better? If the second one is better, use it, if the first is better, use it. The fact that neither unit A nor unit B might be used is not relevant. If they both suck but we chose to use them both anyway and they are fighting for the only support remaining, this is how to determine who gets it. Note that with this logic, if unit A demolishes with it and unit B just becomes decent, it is still theoretically possible that unit B is the best choice regardless. Unlikely, but depending on other factors unit B might turn out to be the best choice.

Sadly, when compare crowned Gatrie + uncrowned unit A vs. uncrowned Gatrie + crowned unit A, there is no unit A that makes the second choice better than the first. If you can find one, then do tell.

You haven't seen or bothered to address my comparison of the 3-3 crown to FE11 Master Seals (or promotion items in any other FE game). Better units don't always get resources, such as promotion items, weapons, supports, unit slots, etc.

So? they don't always get resources because the player is either sick of giving it to them every playthrough or the army as a whole performs better when the item is given to someone else. Like I said, if you can find a situation where uncrowned Gatrie + crowned random unit A + rest > crowned Gatrie + uncrowned random unit A + rest, then tell me. Until then, Gatrie gets it if we use him.

[dondon151]

I'm perfectly fine with choosing to use one unit rather than another.

Why? This is inefficient. If your mantra is to "use all 10 of these guys in the best way possible," then what keeps you from choosing 10 of those guys in the best way possible?

So? they don't always get resources because the player is either sick of giving it to them every playthrough or the army as a whole performs better when the item is given to someone else. Like I said, if you can find a situation where uncrowned Gatrie + crowned random unit A + rest > crowned Gatrie + uncrowned random unit A + rest, then tell me. Until then, Gatrie gets it if we use him.

If you can find a situation where unpromoted Barst + promoted bottom tier unit > promoted Barst + unpromoted bottom tier unit, then tell me. You still haven't addressed my comparison yet; you've basically admitted that you don't agree with how the people working on the FE11 tier list allocate promotion items.

Let's pretend that this debate is solely between 2 units, Gatrie and Titania, who both rock with a crown. The end result is that in the comparisons, either both get the crown or neither get the crown, since neither side wants to sandbag his character by denying that character a much needed resource. This simple fact means that there is reason not to give the crown to Gatrie even when he uses it best.

It's an oversimplification to just assign numbers to utility of crowned units. Titania and Haar get 9 move + canto as opposed to Gatrie's 6 move and no canto, which is an example of how their utility when crowned surpasses Gatrie's even though his combat is likely superior. Soren gets staves. Rolf and Shinon get 3 range. And so on. There are scenarios when each of these advantages is more useful than Gatrie's 6 move + combat that we can't just write them off.

By the way this "getting tired of using units" crap has no place in this tier list discussion which doesn't take into account "getting tired of using units."

Edited July 10, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

I wouldn't call that "lolalidan" chapter too easy though. Remember that even though we have good units on the field permenantly like Naesala and Skrimir, we still have to protect units such as Leanne, Sanaki, Miccy, and Sothe to an extent (I dunno about Sigrun so I'll be borderline with that). Miccy at least has ThaniBomb, but she still can't stay in range with them since they still have Canto.

Leanne isn't that hard to protect because she has canto, and she can always just chant our staff users who should be sitting in the back using physics or something, and its not like Leanne helping us kill a few more paladins on player phase will really help us since the loladins are going to die on enemy phase anyway.

Why would we be bothering with Sanaki or Sothe? Sanaki is one of the worst units in the game, and Sothe is just garbage in part 4. I usually just have them sit in a corner and do nothing, since that's better than getting in my way. No one is forcing us to use them.

Like I said, I'll wait for the Aran and Boyd situation to be resolved then see what arguments I can make for Naesala.

To me, Aran vs Naesala sounds like a worthy debate. Naesala vs Boyd is going to be a total blowout though...

And why wouldn't Aran vs Boyd be resolved already? Has anyone actually countered my 2-3 paragraph post on it?

I actually think you could do better than move Naesala above Aran though. Naesala is probably better than Jill (though I think Jill is too high), and you can make good arguments for Naesala vs Ranulf/Oscar.