OMG it's a tier list

[nflchamp]

You can't have double standards about BEXP when comparing BEXP usage in FE9 and FE10. The two systems are too different to be able to draw comparisons.

No, sorry bro, the idea is the same.

- Mia gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

- Aran gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

Which is a total misrepresentation of the situations. Mia gets BEXP in ch. 8 (PoR) because we have so much that the amount she takes doesn't actually affect anyone and she greatly improves. Aran takes BEXP in 1-4 (RD) which someone may or may not want later on and gets dubious returns on it.

Anyways, no one actually cared all that much about Aran being bad in 1-4. It's not like it ever moved him down in the tier list. The entire debacle only came up since smash was butthurt that Int said Aran was a worse tank in 1-4 than Eddie and has since tried to argue Aran as not being that bad in 1-4.

It's actually more about people QQing over a 1% chance thing of happening while ignoring the advantages of actually being able to take 2 hits.

Although this entire board being aran haters doesn't really help the poor guy's case.

It's not that being able to take 2 hits is being ignored, it's that the 1-2% chance of crit from everything on the map reduces that usefulness. For example, even if Aran is 4HKO'd and not doubled by cats, so long as the cat has crit Aran can't afford to stay in 3HKO range. In other words, Aran is same as Eddie except Eddie actually has a chance of dodging an attack. This logic extends to tigers and any existent crit with them.

This is so funny. Eddie level 7:

Chance of having +3 HP: 61.4125%

Chance of having +2 HP: 32.5125%

Chance of having +1 HP: 5.7375%

Chance of having +0 HP: .3375%

Chance of having +3 DEF: 4.2875%

Chance of having +2 DEF: 23.8875%

Chance of having +1 DEF: 44.3625%

Chance of having +0 DEF: 27.4625%

Eddie's chance's at level 7 of not being able to take a 26 MT attack is ~13%.

Combinations that won't let him be able to take a 26 att.

0 def, 0 HP. 0.092686% chance of happening.

0 def, 1 HP. 1.5757%

0 def, 2 HP. 8.929%

0 def, 3 HP (this technically will let him take a hit, but he takes 21 damage to his 22 HP. He then uses a vulnerary to go back to 21 HP, and then dies on the next hit. I would say it's rather risky to not heal him with Micaiah or Laura in this situation, since if Ilyana/Micaiah fail to kill, or if there's another tiger waiting, he's SOL). 16.865%.

1 def, 0 HP. 0.16636%.

1 def, 1 HP. 2.5453%.

2 def, 0 HP. 0.0806%

Comes out to 30.25%.

BTW, even if you can somehow refute 0 def, 3 HP, 13.39% >>>>> whatever aran's chances to die

in other news, i have a new sig

Even using the 30%, all that means is that 30% of the time Aran is better than Eddie vs 26 MT tigers since 0-1% chance of death is obviously > 100% chance of death. The other 70% of the time Eddie is better than/equal to Aran vs 26 MT tigers since 0-1% chance of death is <= 0% chance of death.

[Florete]

On a different note: @Red Fox of Fire; good madam, have you considered making a second topic for this? As this has reaches 201 pages, it seems to have gotten a tad unwieldy, and I have no doubt that duplicate arguments are going to start appearing because this is hardly searchable. Sorry for the trouble ^^;;

Won't duplicate arguments appear regardless? It's not as if I'm against making another topic, I just don't really see the need to. It's kind of cool that this topic has been going for almost a year now and has over 4,000 posts.

[Narga_Rocks]

On a different note: @Red Fox of Fire; good madam, have you considered making a second topic for this? As this has reaches 201 pages, it seems to have gotten a tad unwieldy, and I have no doubt that duplicate arguments are going to start appearing because this is hardly searchable. Sorry for the trouble ^^;;

Won't duplicate arguments appear regardless? It's not as if I'm against making another topic, I just don't really see the need to. It's kind of cool that this topic has been going for almost a year now and has over 4,000 posts.

Plus it is easier to search through one topic with the search function. Assuming this could go another 30 pages in a new topic, there would be 600 posts in one topic (using 20 posts a page) and 4000+ in this one and I wouldn't necessarily remember just which one to search for something in particular.

[Anouleth]

...

Why are people even talking about PoR Mia?

[Interceptor]

...

Why are people even talking about PoR Mia?

Because smash doesn't care about tiering, he only cares about fighting. That's why he made an Eddie v. Aran comparison in this thread without even including something about where they should move in the listing, and why he misrepresented a BEXP argument from a completely different tier list based on a different game and run by someone else.

He's been slapped down by people who understand the underlying logic behind opportunity cost, so now we can get back to our regularly scheduling tiering, supposing that anyone has any valid arguments to make.

[nflchamp]

BEXP usage. Smash doesn't like how people (namely Int and Narga) are saying that Mia doesn't have a bad start in PoR because we have so much BEXP at that point we can just fix her bad level/stats with it without hurting anybody else. Smash is trying to say we can do the same for Aran because it's the same situation. Except the situations are different.

[-Cynthia-]

The main difference here in that in PoR we have a ton of BEXP by Ch8, the DB, as pointed out doesn't have enough BEXP to give Aran a single level by 1-4, at most it will let him finish the level he started in 1-3.

Also, the BEXP system changed, in PoR it's the same as a levelup, in RD BEXP is generally worse until untis start stap capping.

So yeah, I'm not really seeing the argument here. I don't see anyone denying Aran a forge or anything, and I'm not sure what else would even benefit him (Seraph Robe?).

[Interceptor]

Seraph Robe is not even on the table for this chapter, since it's in a chest in 1-4, and by the time you get to it the chapter is basically over. smash tried that argument before, and when Interceptor someone pointed out the logistical problems with it, he basically forgot that he even said it.

Outside of 1-4, sure the Seraph Robe is on the table for him, but right now smash is myopically focused on 1-4 to the exclusion of all else. Might as well wait for him to take the lead.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, I don't know what to do with Rolf(T).

He starts with 19str and 21spd. By level 10, he has 25.75 str and 25 spd. At level 1 to begin, he gets to fight level 7s to 9s mostly in the first few chapters. On a hit, he gets 8 to 9 exp. On a kill, he gets 29 to 32 exp. It shouldn't take him too long to reach. Also, he has a 56% chance of at least 24 AS by level 7. 6 levels could easily happen by chapter 3-4, at which point 24 AS is good enough for most of our doubling needs (except 2 warriors, 5 swordmasters, 1 boss). 25 AS may not happen for 3-5, since level 9 only sees a 52% chance of having 25 AS, and level 10 gives him 64% (and 25.05 on average). But 24 AS is mostly good enough again in 3-7, since there is just 1 warrior with 21 AS and 5 swordmasters and any DB units with >20 AS to start. Also, 2 swordmaster reinforcements and 3 warrior reinforcements, but by turn 7 he should easily have level 10, considering that is 9 levels in 6 and a half chapters while being rather underleveled. So now he has 41 or 42 mt with the silencer (40 or 41 with steel forge) and doubles everything Shinon does and depending on who Shinon supports, Shinon(N) may actually be missing one or two ORKOs that Rolf can pull.

(note: in response to possible inquiries about what happens the 44% of the time he doesn't hit 24 AS by 3-4, I'd like to let you know that in 5 levels he has a 41% chance of at least 24 AS, so he could easily double some in 3-3. Doubling in 3-3 and 3-4 some of the time, not doubling in either some other times, and only in 3-4 other times, 41% isn't far from 44% so it evens out over time. He even has a 24% chance of at least 24 AS in just 4 levels. And a 32% chance of at most 23 AS in 7 levels, but going to far off the median for just Rolf is a little extreme.)

From this point on, since we don't generally want either one of these attacked on enemy phase and Rolf's 39hp/16def is enough to keep him alive if we need to put him in danger once or twice, Rolf isn't really any worse than Shinon until Shinon promotes. Rolf caps str and spd by level 12 (60% for spd to cap by level 12, 71% for str to cap by level 12). He has a 51% chance of having 41 hp or less and 49% chance of having 42 hp or more. Bexp basically goes into hp and skl, then def or lck. HP will cap pretty quickly at this point, as just one shot of bexp by level 16 means hp is capped. At this point, Rolf could either early crown or continue to try for some bexp levels to get skl/def/lck. Point is, he could probably hit 22 def before promotion, possibly more. Shinon should have 29 def or so by 4-E-1 for the double bow, but Rolf could hit 26 def by then, reasonably. Also they'll have about the same hp. So Shinon is definitely more durable, but only by enough to push his mt to be #HKOd values up by 3. Also, Rolf can be at lower levels than Shinon to ORKO Generals. 51hp/31def needs 57mt to ORKO. Rolf has this at 20/5. Even if Shinon had enough bexp to go from 23.8 to 26 in tier 2, that's only 28 str and he needs 20/11 just to hit 32 str (20/10 would be 31.6, so it could happen then, too). And there are also 52hp/32def Generals that require 33 str, something Rolf hits pretty easily and Shinon needs 20/13 (20/12 is only 32.4).

So, Shinon >> Rolf(T) is obviously true, and I'm not disputing that (That is, I'm not even suggesting it is only one '>' rather than two). But aside from 3-5, Rolf is matching Shinon's output by 3-4. Shinon's earlier promotion mostly amounts to 3 range and him not losing str to Rolf, and thus the things Rolf can ORKO because of capping tier 2 str, Shinon can ORKO because of the promo bonuses. So 3 range a little earlier is what it comes down to. Also, a little more durable with the double bow. However, they should both be looking at a 3HKO from reds and a 2HKO from whites. Also, Rolf could very well support light/water/thunder if his def isn't enough to reach 3HKO. Shinon supporting that isn't going to push him to 4HKOd. And a cover tile makes each of them get past 3HKOd from reds and 2HKOd from whites. So even in 4-E Shinon isn't that much better.

Of course, in early part 4 Rolf may have some issues, and he may not hit 34 AS by Deg, but by spirits it could happen. Rolf has 28 AS after promotion, and I'm not sure when that happens. He needs ~level 20/5 to double the halbs in 4-4, for example. 20/7 for just a 56% chance (assuming capping in tier 2) of doubling warriors in that chapter (except 2 that have 28 AS). So again, Shinon > Rolf.

But I'm thinking that Rolf is doing well enough for long enough that he could be upper mid. Low end of upper mid, but he's ORKOing a significant portion of every map for a very long time when many other units above him are not. Also, he starts with the same speed Titania(N) has in 3-P and 3-1, and he does have 29 mt with the steel bow and 27 mt with the killer bow (if Shinon takes the steel bow from Rolf). It isn't horribad. And while he's not building much utility during the time before 3-4 (unless he attacks things he can double), he's definitely a worthy member of the clean up crew, so getting exp for him is easy. It also isn't slowing us down, considering those weakened enemies have to die somehow anyway. Also, fyi, in 3-2 if he is level 4 he has 21.25 str and 22.35 spd. With a forged steel that is 36 mt. He can actually ORKO a fair number of paladins. And obviously sages (even without a forge). Aside from 2 generals he 3HKOs, he 4HKOs the others. But that is still a 2RKO anyway. Also he 3HKOs dragonmasters. Doubles all of them, too. So even in 3-2 he's actually far from horribad. Sure, Shinon is better against a couple of paladins if he has 22 str, and he is better against the two halbs. But as soon as Rolf hits level 4 (should be partway through the chapter, if not at the beginning) he's already comparing. (Oh, without forges Shinon only has 32 mt anyway, assuming he pulled 22 str. So neither of them are all that good here and Shinon could have = mt with Rolf as well. They just 2HKO (2RKO) swordmasters and ORKO sages and bishops like they do with forges. Otherwise, on the rest neither ORKO anything anymore and they are quite miserable against Generals and Dragonmasters.)

Shinon is, of course, a fair amount better in 3-3 with a larger number of 20 AS enemies.

Now, obviously having little enemy phase ability hurts him, just like Shinon. But Shinon is in high tier because of his ability to ORKO when others can't. Rolf can do the same job about 80% of the time Shinon can do it. If Shinon is high tier for that, then Rolf should be able to be upper mid for doing the same job just as well throughout a lot of the game (or almost as well) and not hurting us at all when he isn't.

Oh, and Rolf(T) probably starts with almost S bows, if it matters (A rank in PoR gives 120 wexp, so 60 out of 60 for B -> A and 60 out of 70 for A -> S). I think he'd do enough attacks with steel by 3-4 to wield the Silencer anyway, considering he just needs 20 attacks in at most 42 turns. Of course, probably < 42 turns, but surely at least 25 turns. Plus Rolf's bow has 8 mt and gives 4 wexp, so on things like sages that he will 2HKO regardless or things that have been weakened he can probably use that. 3 attacks with Rolf's bow mean one less total attack needed.

16(3) + 3(4) = 60 (19 total attacks).

12(3) + 6(4) = 60 (18 total attacks).

8(3) + 9(4) = 60 (17 total attacks).

Considering when he doubles that's 2 attacks, he could pull an A in less than 18 encounters rather easily (18 encounters in 25 turns is him attacking something on 72% of his turns). Even with a fair amount of time spent doing clean-up. 5 doubles + 10 not-doubles = 60 wexp without even using Rolf's Bow.

[Florete]

I'm not going to jump the gun too fast, but I do agree Rolf (T) needs to go up. I don't have anything to add aside from Bonds; Rolf has +10's with both Oscar and Boyd, which help him as well as them. Although his affinity is bad, he can also build support with them pretty fast, but he'd probably be better with someone like Gatrie, who overall doesn't really care who he supports but wants Hit more than anything.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not going to jump the gun too fast, but I do agree Rolf (T) needs to go up. I don't have anything to add aside from Bonds; Rolf has +10's with both Oscar and Boyd, which help him as well as them. Although his affinity is bad, he can also build support with them pretty fast, but he'd probably be better with someone like Gatrie, who overall doesn't really care who he supports but wants Hit more than anything.

That's the thing: I don't know what to do with him. I'm actually not sure how to measure how high he could go. Player phase only vs. more well rounded units (who aren't going to be anywhere near as good on player phase). But it didn't stop Shinon from High Tier.

Anyway, you are probably right about giving him something like Gatrie. The +15 hit probably helps Gatrie when he uses special weapons. Well, +7 on what he normally gets, but it helps. Gats doesn't really care about mt, nor does he care about more def/res, and Earth on him is a bad use of Earth. So if Gatrie cares about anything, it is hit, and so Rolf is no worse than any of his other choices. In fact, if Gatrie cares about anything aside from hit, it is probably avo for a little less chance of sages hitting him on the rare occasions when there are enough that I'd have to heal him otherwise (One of the reasons Gats is so great is we rarely need to heal him). And while Rolf doesn't exactly care about the def until the Double Bow, and only cares about hit while shooting up ledges, it does help a bit eventually. Especially considering Shinon's affinity already giving him 2 def. Plus Rolf doesn't really care about +mt either given his soon to be massive str. Well, it helps turn Generals into 3HKOs instead of 4HKOs earlier, but oh well. A player phase only unit likely isn't getting Adept anyway, and crits will KO with a 4HKO just as easily as they do with a 3HKO when he doubles. Also, like I said earlier, Shinon potentially needs his support partner for some ORKOs. Rolf soon won't (and Gats doesn't give mt anyway). So Rolf can go first, Gats can go second. Meaning Gats gets the hit boost on attacking with Hammer or short axe or whatever. If Gats' partner actually needs his boost, Gats must go first so that his partner can have him in range. Either that or his partner only goes 3 beyond where Gats is at the start of the turn. Meaning at times it could very well be +15 hit over what Gats might get otherwise.

Another potential support is Haar, though that doesn't give the +def in 4-E. Neither really care all that much about their supports anyway, and Haar has access to hammers and short axes too. Rolf is about as likely as anybody else to be in range of Haar for a support when we might want Haar to be more accurate. It isn't like there are any other fliers. It doesn't even matter if they only have 2 adjacents for every three chapters. Building up a support level every 3 chapters probably doesn't bother either of them. Haar doesn't have anything faster than a 02 in part 3 anyway, so chances are that without holding Haar back most of his potential partners will take 3 maps per support level. Only Neph, Brom, and Heather are faster (by one chapter total) by virtue of the 2-E chapter bonus. But Neph and Heather probably care more about their support, and Brom is a turtle with no motivation for us to wait for him or move him around with laguz and Haar and other mounted units. (Incidentally, I suppose Gatrie x Haar is also an okay support for similar reasons to why Rolf is okay, but then they will get the hit bonus for special weapons even less often than if they supported Rolf.)

[Pineapple]

Reading through this thread, I find it amazing how, even after 4000 posts, people seem to be barely any closer to reaching a conclusion than they were originally.

It would have been interesting to have seen the original tier list, just for reference.

[Florete]

Reading through this thread, I find it amazing how, even after 4000 posts, people seem to be barely any closer to reaching a conclusion than they were originally.

What do you mean by that? FE tier lists aren't supposed to have conclusions.

It would have been interesting to have seen the original tier list, just for reference.

Trust me, it was bad. I think Edward was in Upper Mid, above Mia.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm sure you could read through some of the first few pages to get an idea. I don't because I'd be embarrassed at how bad I was a year ago.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Pineapple]

Reading through this thread, I find it amazing how, even after 4000 posts, people seem to be barely any closer to reaching a conclusion than they were originally.

What do you mean by that? FE tier lists aren't supposed to have conclusions.

Aren't they? I thought they were supposed to give the most accurate possible ranking of the characters. By the list, you have essentially reached the conclusion that a character in high tier is better than a character in low tier.

But to rephrase myself: People seemed equally discontent at page 50 as they did at page 150 (randomly selected page numbers)

[Mekkah]

late to the party but

Light and Wind do not weigh her down. She won't be using them most likely, but it's worth mentioning and proves she doesn't get weighed down by enemies.

What's Sanaki doing carrying around enemies?

Edited November 16, 2009 by Mekkah

[Florete]

Aren't they? I thought they were supposed to give the most accurate possible ranking of the characters. By the list, you have essentially reached the conclusion that a character in high tier is better than a character in low tier.

Well, there's that, but I meant to say that there will never be a time where we can just close the topic or something because the list is accurate as possible. New ideas and criteria are always popping up. In fact, it was only fairly recently we added the transfer versions of characters.

But to rephrase myself: People seemed equally discontent at page 50 as they did at page 150 (randomly selected page numbers)

That's not true at all. The only person who is consistently discontent with this list is smash.

late to the party but

Light and Wind do not weigh her down. She won't be using them most likely, but it's worth mentioning and proves she doesn't get weighed down by enemies.

What's Sanaki doing carrying around enemies?

B)

[Interceptor]

But to rephrase myself: People seemed equally discontent at page 50 as they did at page 150 (randomly selected page numbers)

It's easier to understand why this is if you keep in mind two things:

1) There are various disagreements between people that are basically intractable. The majority opinion in this tier list on Mia's relative worthiness is completely at odds with that of the like of smash and Paperblade. It causes flare-ups all the time.

2) The tier list has gone through a few different eras of philosophy. Standards have morphed over time. For example, as recently as a few months ago units were not seriously considered with much in the way of non-generic gear. Mordecai's current position reflects what he can do with Resolve (spoilers: he rapes), whereas before it did not.

So basically, a lot of the time the work of previous arguments gets undone, and there are always people who are unhappy with the status quo.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[charmander6000]

Not wanting to start a flamewar, but I've been wondering about something.

Let's say unit A is the best at using multiple resources and would therefore get those resources. However is there a point where even though unit A is the best at using those multiple resources it actually slows down the team because that unit has a monopoly on those resources? As in even though units B, C and D aren't as good at using the resource as unit A the plus that they get will help the team more than unit A.

[Florete]

Not wanting to start a flamewar, but I've been wondering about something.

Let's say unit A is the best at using multiple resources and would therefore get those resources. However is there a point where even though unit A is the best at using those multiple resources it actually slows down the team because that unit has a monopoly on those resources? As in even though units B, C and D aren't as good at using the resource as unit A the plus that they get will help the team more than unit A.

That sounds contradictory. If Unit A is the best at using a resource, it should be because it helps the team more than anyone else using it. If B, C, and D help the team more with it than A does, then A isn't the best with it in the first place.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not wanting to start a flamewar, but I've been wondering about something.

Let's say unit A is the best at using multiple resources and would therefore get those resources. However is there a point where even though unit A is the best at using those multiple resources it actually slows down the team because that unit has a monopoly on those resources? As in even though units B, C and D aren't as good at using the resource as unit A the plus that they get will help the team more than unit A.

But then A isn't the best at taking those resources. Or at least not all at once.

A, B, C, D.

Items w, x, y, z.

wxyzA + B + C + D would have to be > any other way of setting it up (and there are too many ways to set it up. There are 24 ways to simply give exactly one item to each unit, so I'm not listing all the alternatives that wxyzA + B + C + D has to beat, which is 4^4 - 1 = 255 ways, or 5^4 - 1 if you include the possibility of any or all of w, x, y, z going nowhere.).

However, even if A isn't the best place for all 4 together, it could very well be the best place for two of them.

For example:

wxA + yB + zC + D could be > any other way to distribute those resources, including dumping them all on A.

Of course, it gets even more complicated when you consider that A is the only unit guaranteed to be deployed on the team in question, but there is still a "rest of team" with A.

So even if wxyzA + B + C + D > any other way for some B, C, D, there could potentially exist an E such that wxyzA + B + C + E < A + B + wxC + yzE, or something. At which point A might not be able to get all 4.

(Yeah, Red Fox got in first. But I have more funky symbols.)

Also, even if A is the best for any one of those resources, ie:

wA + rest of team > any other unit getting w, and

xA + rest of team > any other unit getting x, and

yA + rest of team > any other unit getting y, and

zA + rest of team > any other unit getting z

that doesn't necessarily mean that

wxyzA + B + C + D > any other way.

And even if:

wxyzA + B + C + D < some other way can be proven, that doesn't change the truth of the other 4 statements. It's a diminishing marginal returns thing. Giving w to A is all well and good, but chances are the economic profit from giving x to A now that A has w will be less than giving x to A when A has nothing. There comes a point when the economic profit from giving the next item to A is in fact negative, at which point that item goes elsewhere.

Hence the team might get 6 from giving w or x or y or z to A instead of another unit, but once A has w the team may only get 3 more from giving x or y or z to A instead of another unit. And maybe now that A has w and x, the team gets -1 from giving either y or z to A instead of some other unit, and thus whichever unit(s) had the higher profit from getting y or z than A would be getting those items. A might still be gaining, since giving an item to a unit almost never makes the unit worse, but in the end it is a -1 for the team because the next best alternative forgone was actually a better destination for y or z, and thus it hurts the team to give either y or z to A. A is likely still getting w and x, though.

The idea, then, is to maximize the total utility of the team through the distribution of resources.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[tehnikhil]

I am going to argue Snacky above Lehran and Vika below Bastian. Hopefully I don't get too caught up in arguing...

Sanaki vs. Lehran:

- Lehran is great and we all know that... but for 1 chapter. We can give his Ashera staff to Mickey who shouldn't have much excuse to not beign able to use it since healign has been all she has done since part 3.

- Sanaki/Siggy combo of siggy weakening while Sanaki finishes off enemies helps for the non-endgame chapters. Neither have movement reductions in 4-3 too.

- Come endgame, Sigrun can be replaced by someone else who is 2 rounding, so Sanaki can potshot for the 1 rounds.

- 4-E-3. Meteor/Bolting spam FTW. She can help crush those pesky red dragons in this chapter and that can actually be very helpful. She can stand behind the wall of heron/2 dragons to do this possibly.

I would say that is why she is better than Lehran. Plus, exactly which tome is he going to use? Mickey may choose to bless purge for 4-E-3 and so she can make easy potshots for the next 2 chapters. Does Lehran really want to use siege tomes?

Vika vs Bastian:

The whole argument is 3 chapters of mediocrity vs 1 chapter of awesome and 5 more chapters of mediocrity.

Vika comes in as one of the 3 famous Jagens who suddenly turn into Ninos. But, there is something special about Vika: Her stats compared to others aren't that much different from FE11's Jagen with a silver steel lance. So she really doesn't have that much greatness. Plus, she has that whole downtime and 1 range issue. We already have 5 Jagens to satisfy us and who actually do their job well: Zihark, Sothe, Volug, Tormod, and Muarim. Two of those can support each other in part 3 and make a very dangerous couple.

Also, don't tell me that Vika is good for 1-8; she isn't going to kill those dracos until they already have killed a lot of the citizens.

Bastian has the whole "WEEEEEE STAFF UTILITY" thing going for him, so that is always a plus. He is also helping beat up those pesky laguz in 4-5 and is RNG proof. He can get Rexcalibur if you decide not to use Soren, and honestly, considering how most physical GM's are better than him, why would you? In endgame, he is actually fighting for a role, but even if he gets accepted, it isn't like he is doing a bad job. Kill wise, he is probably killing as consistently as Vika was. Plus he has the 4-E-3 siege tome thing where he and Sanaki can trade around a siege tome and eat those dragons alive.

[Florete]

I would say that is why she is better than Lehran. Plus, exactly which tome is he going to use? Mickey may choose to bless purge for 4-E-3 and so she can make easy potshots for the next 2 chapters. Does Lehran really want to use siege tomes?

Micaiah is probably best with blessing Nosferatu for tanking Dragons (She may need Kurth and/or a Cover tile for Reds), which does nothing for Lehran. Although Purge probably works just as well.

So yeah, I support Sanaki > Lehran.

No comment on Vika vs Bastian yet.

[Narga_Rocks]

Vika > Bastian.

1-7:

Tormod takes out one of the two mages blocking the east ledge. Vika and Muarim run up and wreak havoc. Killing a soldier and the longbow user. Using the key to open up the door by turn 3 or 4 so that the soldier can get out by turn 9 or 10. Or just clearing the path for Micaiah to pull a quick clear, or even picking Micaiah up and cantoing with her to get Micaiah to the exit quicker.

1-8:

Tormod moves and then gets shoved by Muarim. Do it right the dragon rider suicides into him on the first turn. Vika takes a grass, tries to get hit by a Bandit that either

a: has 16 def

b: will stand on a reed to attack her (since the others have 15 def)

She transforms on turn 2 and takes out the bandits. Even before she transforms (or if you can't swing the bandit thing), she is the only one that can stand in the way of one guy close to the civilians. All she has to do is block his movement and he'll attack her instead of moving towards the civilian. She takes <20 damage and thus can vulnerary back up, or even grass if it was the first hit or it missed (they 3HKO, I think). After she kills the bandit she can start helping out Sothe with the guys on the right. Helpful for the 6 turn limit.

1-E:

Doesn't really matter anymore. She's done enough in those two chapters to outrank Bastian's 4-5 considering you can finish it off any time you want by having Tibarn and Elincia take a run at the boss. His 4-E is superfluous. Even if we don't consider it to be superfluous, he still doesn't have the footprint (talonprint) on turncount that she does.

[tehnikhil]

Oh christ, I didn't know 1-8 was a six turn limit fight o.O. Never mind about that then. At that time, you woudl need every single person you could get I guess.

BTW, what exactly is reason for all the positions for bottom? Namely Meg vs Astrid and Fiona vs Lyre? If Fiona because she at lease has an earth affinity to help for a C support? Does meg get doubled in her starting chapter? Plus, who doesn't love Meg's great bases of 10 str and 10 def? Oooor am I just getting messed up from playing FE6 where Marcus has 9 str as a base and can dominate with taht for a while?

Edited November 17, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Florete]

BTW, what exactly is reason for all the positions for bottom? Namely Meg vs Astrid and Fiona vs Lyre? If Fiona because she at lease has an earth affinity to help for a C support? Does meg get doubled in her starting chapter? Plus, who doesn't love Meg's great bases of 10 str and 10 def? Oooor am I just getting messed up from playing FE6 where Marcus has 9 str as a base and can dominate with taht for a while?

Fiona > Lyre: No cat gauge, ends up better, Earth affinity, free for 3 pre-part 4 maps, easier to feed kills to.

Astrid > Meg: I think there was something about Astrid w/Silencer helping getting people into KO range in 3-11 or something. In any case, Bows make it easier for her to potshot/take kills and Meg's mobility sucks enough to make even that all the more harder for her.