Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

There are 4 spaces your Archer can be attacked from. A unit coming and finishing off an enemy makes 1, or if the enemy was already killed, there are none at the moment. So you have to cover 3-4 spaces worth to make sure your Archer isn't attacked. Unless you place a literal wall around him/her, this'll probably take a few units to do, which can restrict your units movements, especially if they're God units on horses like Alan, Lance, Miledy, and Percival.

Or you know, we can be smart and not play Turtle the Archer and just have a wall of people we would normally have in case ya know, someone attacks our healers or Lou. An archer does not retrict people from moving ahead and you don't have to defend an archer so closely as to cover all 4 of his vulnerable sides, just enough that enemies can't generally reach them. That seriously is not that hard unless you're doing it on purpose.

Klein and Shin can kill multiple enemies per turn naturally now?

You suggesting I drop them down to their level because you get all butthurt whenever bows are mentioned?

[dondon151]

There are 4 spaces your Archer can be attacked from. A unit coming and finishing off an enemy makes 1, or if the enemy was already killed, there are none at the moment. So you have to cover 3-4 spaces worth to make sure your Archer isn't attacked. Unless you place a literal wall around him/her, this'll probably take a few units to do, which can restrict your units movements, especially if they're God units on horses like Alan, Lance, Miledy, and Percival.

An archer cannot be attacked from all 4 spaces unless you stupidly plop one right in the middle of an enemy's movement range. An archer 4 spaces away from an enemy (not solely in one direction, otherwise this will not be possible) can be attacked from all 4 sides. However, protecting the 2 sides closest to the enemy also prevents the enemy from attacking the other 2 sides. This is the same case if the archer is 3 spaces away from an enemy (again, not solely in one direction, otherwise not all 4 sides are vulnerable). If the archer is 2 spaces away from an enemy, then it logically follows that the enemy will die on the same player phase, because it's pretty stupid to have an archer attack an enemy and not finish him off.

It's generally assumed that an archer ends up 2 spaces away from an enemy, because that's the necessary distance for an attack. Other enemies maybe be 3 or 4 spaces away, but the archer generally only needs 2 PC units to cover his sides, and at least 1 of them will already be there from attacking the original target. Then, also consider that other movement paths may be blocked off naturally by other attacking units. If an archer needs more than 2 PCs to cover him, then it's not a wise decision in the first place to send him in to attack.

Klein and Shin can kill multiple enemies per turn naturally now?

The value of an extra attack is more than just "number of enemies killed." An extra attack, if uncountered, saves a heal. It also lets another unit use his full movement to progress through the chapter faster.

[Florete]

Or you know, we can be smart and not play Turtle the Archer and just have a wall of people we would normally have in case ya know, someone attacks our healers or Lou. An archer does not retrict people from moving ahead and you don't have to defend an archer so closely as to cover all 4 of his vulnerable sides, just enough that enemies can't generally reach them. That seriously is not that hard unless you're doing it on purpose.

Well, you know, part of the reason healers and Lugh aren't higher than they already are is because they're not durable and need walling.

Another problem with forming walls is how enemy reinforcements appear. I recall a good number of chapters where enemies actually spawn behind you, so if you're covering an Archer from the front, that still might not save him/her.

You suggesting I drop them down to their level because you get all butthurt whenever bows are mentioned?

What the fuck is this? I'm the butthurt one? Who cries whenever Klein vs. Fir is brought up? Screw you.

The value of an extra attack is more than just "number of enemies killed." An extra attack, if uncountered, saves a heal. It also lets another unit use his full movement to progress through the chapter faster.

That's just a minor advantage. Hurting things on the enemy phase also means I'm less likely to take a counter on the player phase, or even have to fight on the player phase. One extra attack per phase is not that valuable. This is why FE10 Shinon isn't higher than he is.

[dondon151]

That's just a minor advantage. Hurting things on the enemy phase also means I'm less likely to take a counter on the player phase, or even have to fight on the player phase. One extra attack per phase is not that valuable. This is why FE10 Shinon isn't higher than he is.

FE10 Shinon is still pretty damn high for being locked to bows. Klein and Shin would be higher as well.

I would be satisfied if people acknowledged that one doesn't have to go very far out of his way to protect an archer, and in some cases he doesn't even need to consciously protect them at all. They're already recognized for having no enemy phase and therefore no damage, but they don't have to be penalized twice.

Edited August 27, 2009 by dondon151

[Quasar]

Long coffee break. Too many things to quote on too many pages, sorry. Again.

Wolt > Karel > Dorothy was agreed on and the basis was that 6 chapters >>>> 1 chapter where mediocre > 1 chapter where very slightly worse relatively. There is a problem here. Or actually it's only possible there is, I for one haven't checked Wolt and Dorothy's performance yet.

Enemies usually come from a single direction. Average unpromoted enemies have five movement. Put a character directly in front of an Archer and enemies in that line will have to spend two extra movement to get to him assuming clear ground. Make that more for every forest/hill/wall/whatever in way. And this is only with a single character in the way, moving there naturally. Chances are others will join.

What comes to penalizing for the lack of enemy phase I usually give them less levels in addition to the regular no one range minus when comparing too since it directly hurts your Exp gain somewhat but I don't really buy into triple punishment. If nothing else not taking a counter on enemy phase at least negates the somewhat rare occasion you'd have to wall them. Once again - you don't have to attack with them if it's too risky. Only time you need walling is when both of the following conditions are met: being killed on enemy phase and being attacked from so many directions you cannot avoid it. Walling outside these conditions is negative utility for favoritism.

Reinforcements from behind in many chapters? Yeah, sure. But that's only the half truth. From the top of my head...

Chapter 6 - full of chokepoints anyway, not to mention the whole map is so damn small it doesn't bother you

Chapter 7 - not sure, I think you can outmaneuver them but maybe not

Chapter 8 - sure. The amount of enemies blocking your progress forces you to fight them

Chapter 11A - they come too late to be a problem

Chapter 13 - upper route only, can be skipped (take town, return south)

Chapter 14 - no way they'll get to you in time

Chapter 15 - well, it's Percival

Chapter 17B - too late

Chapter 19B - hm, maybe. There are Cav reinforcements to the SW EDIT: oh yeah the "guerrilla forces", make it a "sure" then too

Chapter 21 - definitely. Actually make that "from every direction"

Chapter 24 - slowkutes can't catch you

Don't remember Bartre/never been to Ilia.

On a somewhat related note I think it's an ass game mechanic that enemy reinforcements attack on the same turn they appear on. If I want to play a god damn memory game I play a memory game. At least give a warning or something, it's not like you can't see charging horses until they're next to you shoving their Silver Lance in places you didn't want to expose to any object of that length.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

Gruesome as that thought is, there a couple things to take in mind. Like sometimes, there is an actual physical wall already for archers to utilize. Going back to chapter 7, all northern area is walled off but 1 doorway which can be plugged up by one dude while the rest of your force goes to fight Devious. This makes cav reinforcements easy pickings for your archers and Lou.

Same with Bartre route's first chapter.

Another note is Sacae, where there are plenty of nomads, and someone with range and durability can be pretty godly. 2 Range isn't always a negative.

Then for snipers specifically, there are ballistae to snipe dracos out the air (ala, the bridge), but that's rather minor for snipers.

Would you people agree with Boris above Douglas and Hue at least?

Edited August 27, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

wall of text about 2-range

None of this covers the primary reason why Walt and Dorothy suck ass: Their stats.

although can we please use this as evidence to bump Klein over Fir because I am so damned sick of seeing them tied when it is so blatantly not true

Edited August 27, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

Exactly. Walt, Dorothy and Sue are quite low due to the fact that they suck, bows of which compound this. If you're actually good with bows, you tend to get a nice boost, like Klein and Shin.

Seems I have a bit of support as well. I mean who better to help train Fir in hte first place, eh?

[Florete]

although can we please use this as evidence to bump Klein over Fir because I am so damned sick of seeing them tied when it is so blatantly not true

So now decent 2 range > good 1 range? What a turn-around.

The real problem with Klein is that after like 5 maps he's not even that good anymore. He'll stop doubling, which is pretty significant in itself, especially when you think of it like this:

What comes to penalizing for the lack of enemy phase I usually give them less levels in addition to the regular no one range minus when comparing too since it directly hurts your Exp gain somewhat but I don't really buy into triple punishment.

So he has kinda low experience gain when he's actually good and then when everyone else catches up he's not even that good anymore. And I already showed how he's not even that much better at first, if at all. I've mainly given up though because putting Klein and Fir in the same slot was such an act of desperation I'm thinking you wouldn't put her over him unless a gun was being pointed at your head, even though you largely gave up the argument, which would suggest that you'd make the move since no one else was really involved, but you tried to pass on that with a "Well, I'm not good at getting a point across, but I know I'm right."

[grandjackal]

although can we please use this as evidence to bump Klein over Fir because I am so damned sick of seeing them tied when it is so blatantly not true

So now decent 2 range > good 1 range? What a turn-around.

The "good" 1 range doesn't show up till she promotes. So yes, I'd take decent 2 range> crappy 1 range.

The real problem with Klein is that after like 5 maps he's not even that good anymore. He'll stop doubling, which is pretty significant in itself, especially when you think of it like this:

I still have to protect Fir regardless, since she still isn't teh gratest 1 range around, forcing her to always take counters. He's still got access to silver bows, and until she waits to promote (of which Klein need not deal with, meaning we could sell our orion's bolts for money) he's got Wyverns too.

What comes to penalizing for the lack of enemy phase I usually give them less levels in addition to the regular no one range minus when comparing too since it directly hurts your Exp gain somewhat but I don't really buy into triple punishment.

So he has kinda low experience gain when he's actually good and then when everyone else catches up he's not even that good anymore. And I already showed how he's not even that much better at first, if at all. I've mainly given up though because putting Klein and Fir in the same slot was such an act of desperation I'm thinking you wouldn't put her over him unless a gun was being pointed at your head, even though you largely gave up the argument, which would suggest that you'd make the move since no one else was really involved, but you tried to pass on that with a "Well, I'm not good at getting a point across, but I know I'm right."

My point has actually been clearly described though now. It's harder to protect a 1-ranger than it is to protect a 2-ranger. So that whole problem is now over with, especially since Fir is a 1-ranger we really want to protect, considering how fragile she is without supports (of which Klein doesn't even need, but can still benefit others with, others that suck much less than Fir's supports). She wins when she promotes, of which she needs a hero crest. Klein needs nothing to be spanking her up until then. Advantage>Klein.

I knew you were gonna see these few quips and explode, but I can't help but think this bit was aimed at me and YET you quoted the wrong bit...I don't think that was me saying that, but hte point is made regardless.

So, anyone object to Klein>Fir that isn't Fox, and anyone agree with Klein>Fir that isn't me?

Edited August 28, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

The "good" 1 range doesn't show up till she promotes. So yes, I'd take decent 2 range> crappy 1 range.

What the hell? I showed a while back how Fir is not bad at all before promotion. Promotion just magnifies it because of +3 Str and +30 Crit.

I still have to protect Fir regardless, since she still isn't teh gratest 1 range around, forcing her to always take counters. He's still got access to silver bows, and until she waits to promote (of which Klein need not deal with, meaning we could sell our orion's bolts for money) he's got Wyverns too.

She doesn't have to be "teh greatest 1 range around" to beat Klein on offense. And she generally has enough avoid that her durability isn't terrible either.

My point has actually been clearly described though now. It's harder to protect a 1-ranger than it is to protect a 2-ranger.

Except that Fir doesn't really need much protection. She might a bit at first, but Klein always does.

(of which Klein doesn't even need, but can still benefit others with, others that suck much less than Fir's supports).

Shin sucks now? Even you've been pushing for Bartre to go up. And this helps them as well as her, especially since these 2 have like no one else to support. Klein's only option that doesn't have anywhere else to go is Tate, but she apparently sucks too much to be in play.

She wins when she promotes, of which she needs a hero crest. Klein needs nothing to be spanking her up until then. Advantage>Klein.

I love how you keep saying he "spanks" her despite the fact I've proven like 15 times that even when he is better (which isn't particularly long) he's not a whole lot better.

I knew you were gonna see these few quips and explode, but I can't help but think this bit was aimed at me and YET you quoted the wrong bit...I don't think that was me saying that, but hte point is made regardless.

I know what I quoted. I didn't have to quote you specifically to be talking to you. Normally I wouldn't attack you like this but you've been so stubborn I have no other choice. Sirius even said earlier in the topic that you should raise her above him, to which you had no reply. And as I mentioned, giving them the same slot was like the lowest act of desperation you could run to. You just can't handle the thought that I might actually be right and you're wrong, so you just "compromised." You wouldn't even accept a formal debate because you "can't get your point across very well." You're just doing your best to dodge my arguments.

So, anyone object to Klein>Fir that isn't Fox, and anyone agree with Klein>Fir that isn't me?

Apparently I don't matter anymore because I'm biased or something despite the fact that you've obviously been acting out of bias the entire time.

It's like Shinon vs. Mia in FE10. Shinon's got the superior range and concrete durability, but Mia's ability to dodge, counter, and crit-blick enemies pushes her above him quite easily.

[grandjackal]

With the Wo Dao maybe, but that's a weapon Rutger could use as well.

Otherwise, I'd hardly call 12 MT with iron sword "not that bad".

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

This is chapter 10. Her 13 AS doubles a grand total of 2 enemy types, 1 of which is a weaker form of the same class that she can't counter and has great accuracy. Not a single damn thing on this map can't 2RKO her. Since she's not doubling, she 5RKOs the axers, 7RKOs mercs, do I even need to go on? You could equip a steel sword, but you lose 5 AS, 10 avoid (ya know, which you say is important to her "durability" ). Mercs can double her and just flat out end her life. She becomes easier to hit. Even then, she's not even 3RKOing fighters anyways. So no! You are wrong, good si-...madam!

She doesn't have to be "teh greatest 1 range around" to beat Klein on offense. And she generally has enough avoid that her durability isn't terrible either.

She does to make up for her concrete durability of which I'm putting her at such risk as to make her anyhting more than an archer that has to take a counter anyways. There are mroe than just axers, and in order to kill them quicker she needs steel, which reduces her avoid by a whopping 10. They'd have actually enough hit to make me reconsider then. Otherwise, the offense I'd consider wasteful.

Shin sucks now? Even you've been pushing for Bartre to go up. And this helps them as well as her, especially since these 2 have like no one else to support. Klein's only option that doesn't have anywhere else to go is Tate, but she apparently sucks too much to be in play.

Shin quite quickly becomes Klein with a horse who will double forever, though he is lacking in weapon rank, but he does get melee options after promotion. He's got his uses over Klein, thus he's higher despite the fact he costs about a promotion item's worth of gold above Klein.

I love how you keep saying he "spanks" her despite the fact I've proven like 15 times that even when he is better (which isn't particularly long) he's not a whole lot better.

I'd hardly call worse offense, needing even more protection due to taking counters no matter what "not a whole lot better", I'd consider it "plenty better"

Also, when have you proved this now?

I know what I quoted. I didn't have to quote you specifically to be talking to you. Normally I wouldn't attack you like this but you've been so stubborn I have no other choice. Sirius even said earlier in the topic that you should raise her above him, to which you had no reply. And as I mentioned, giving them the same slot was like the lowest act of desperation you could run to. You just can't handle the thought that I might actually be right and you're wrong, so you just "compromised." You wouldn't even accept a formal debate because you "can't get your point across very well." You're just doing your best to dodge my arguments.

Let's change that then...For the third time.

Besides, the other problem was that it was formal. I don't seem the type to be made formal, do I? I mean come on, it'd be weird putting me in a tux and everything! *Horrible wit that needs to be punished*

Apparently I don't matter anymore because I'm biased or something despite the fact that you've obviously been acting out of bias the entire time.

And apparently I don't matter anymore because apparently I'm a delusional loony. Clearly we both are not gonna settle this anytime soon.

It's like Shinon vs. Mia in FE10. Shinon's got the superior range and concrete durability, but Mia's ability to dodge, counter, and crit-blick enemies pushes her above him quite easily.

Fir can't slowpad BEXP, nor does she have fantastic growths in every stat I could ask for, nor can she just support Ike for lulz boosts, NOR is she like 2 points away from capping several stats.

Srsly, Mia has 35% defense growth, the best of the SMs...Wtf? Even Taur's only got 10% more, he's a freaking general.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Quasar]

wall of text about 2-range

None of this covers the primary reason why Walt and Dorothy suck ass: Their stats.

It wasn't supposed to. If you're referring to Dorothy vs Karel Dorothy's opportunities lie in being useful mid to late game before Karel joins. That is if she is useful.

Edit: Also I don't understand why Shin is so underappreciated around here. You can't really give him negative points for Orion's Bolt either because there are four people needing it, you get two and Shin is pretty awesome compared to the three others unlike the situation with Guiding Rings where everyone and their mother needs one. Nomadic Trooper is probably the second best class in the game, losing only to Paladin.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Quasar

[Colonel M]

Unfortunately the bar that's set against Shin is the most ridiculous one:

"lolSacae".

[Reikken]

Dorothy is cool because she gives Saul an excellent support that there's no way he's getting filled otherwise, and a promoted Saul packing A Dorothy B Ellen is pretty good.

Also, Marcus is way too low. With exp rank not existing? Yeah, he's amazing as far as efficiency goes. High tier at least.

[Dat Nick]

Also, Marcus is way too low. With exp rank not existing? Yeah, he's amazing as far as efficiency goes. High tier at least.

Easy there, tiger. Marcus doesn't have half of the longterm use of his FE7 counterpart. I don't see how he could possibly be High.

Earlygame utility, yes, but you can only stretch that so far.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[Reikken]

Indeed. FE7 Marcus is top of top when exp (and funds--else Matthew takes it) rank doesn't exist. FE6 Marcus can be well below that and still be in high tier.

How is MARCUS high tier? How is he not is a better question. He's the MVP for several of the hardest chapters. He's king of kings when no one else can step up to the plate at all. He is extremely useful and even essential to completing the game efficiently. Ch 1-7 are made much harder, slower, or even luck-based without him. He makes a bigger impact in those chapters than any unit does in any other chapter. What do the likes of Shin or Lot have on that?

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reikken

[Dat Nick]

Ch 1-7 are made much harder, slower, or even luck-based without him.

That's only seven chapters, though. I don't deny Marcus is handy during that timeframe, but that's already factored. You have to do more than explain what we already know.

What do the likes of Shin or Lot have on that?

the rest of the game? hell, Shin's BASES are comparable/higher than Marcus's

[Reikken]

Marcus isn't used for said rest of the game, so them beating him via a direct comparison is irrelevant.

By the time Shin shows up, you have a nearly full team that's kicking his ass. Beating Marcus's stats? So what? (he's not, btw; he just has better spd, but loses in everything else, often very badly)

Ditto on Lot. Lot is never any better than average, and usually worse, depending on what "average" is (in a good team, he'll be among the worst, if not the worst). Except in ch 7 against those wyverns, he's a bit better than Alan and such.

All high tier+ units have something really going for them. Marcus is no exception.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

Lott can become a tanky sonofabitch later on. He's an ideal support for Deak (I think Clarine or Rutgar getting him is slightly overrated since Lott at least offers Atk and it's quick) and with supports he can be decent sponge in Sacae.

[Dat Nick]

Marcus isn't used for said rest of the game, so them beating him via a direct comparison is irrelevant.

So 7 chapters of being good= high tier? I know they're the chapters that hold the most weight, but REALLY?

By the time Shin shows up, you have a nearly full team that's kicking his ass. Beating Marcus's stats? So what? (he's not, btw; he just has better spd, but loses in everything else, often very badly)

huh? he ties in str and only slightly loses in concrete durability. WTA, melee, and move are the only points against him, really.

And nearly a full team that's kicking his ass? look, Lance has to be lvl 14 to tie him in AS Granted, Lance has supports, but the fact that Shin is comparing quite well to the top unit when he shows up is suggesting that he's kicking the team's ass, not the other way around.

Ditto on Lot. Lot is never any better than average.

fine with that

[Reikken]

7 chapters of being great to godly >>> spending the entire game being average, yes.

Shin compares well to Lance? lol?

base Shin:

Iron Bow: 15.1 atk, 13.2 AS, 105.4 hit, 5.2 crit - - 34.4 avo, 28.5 hp, 7.8 def, 1.1 res, 8.1 critavo

Steel Bow:18.1 atk, 11.1 AS, 90.4 hit, 5.2 crit - - 30.4 avo

13 Lance, B Alan B Roy

Iron Lance: 20.8 atk, 14.0 AS, 105.6 hit, 15.4 crit - - 54.2 avo, 29.6 hp, 10.4 def, 3.8 res, 16.2 critavo

Steel Sword: 21.8 atk, 13.0 AS, 105.6 hit, 15.4 crit - - 52.2 avo

uh ohz, Shin has comparable spd. And is massacred everywhere else. Like weapon triangle for a 62 avoid on the mass axes in these chapters while using a steel sword for ~23 atk, and being able to counterattack them as well.

Hell, let's compare him to a noncombat unit:

14 Chad, B Lugh

Iron Sword: 16.5 atk, 19.6 AS, 114.7 hit, 9.5 crit - - 61.0 avo, 27.0 hp, 6.2 def, 2.9 res, 16.8 critavo

Steel Sword: 19.5 atk, 14.6 AS, 99.7 hit, 9.5 crit - - 51.0 avo

Chad is beating him even before you factor in lolWTAandCounterattacks

[Reikken]

Oh yeah, and to compare Marcus to base Shin, just for kicks, since you brought it up:

5 Marcus:

Steel Sword: 18.0 atk, 12.0 AS, 104.8 hit, 7.2 crit - - 34.8 avo, 34.4 hp, 9.6 def, 8.8 res, 10.8 critavo

Steel Lance: 20.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 89.8 hit, 7.2 crit - - 30.8 avo

lolSilverLance: 24.0 atk, 12.0 AS, 99.8 hit, 7.2 crit - - 34.8 avo

2 def, 6 hp, and almost 8 res, and then often a +1 for full WTC makes for no small lead in concrete defenses. Marcus is one of few who would actually be able to eat a two hits from a steel axe and still be alive.

Marcus is winning offense as well. Shin has 1 AS, while Marcus has leads in atk and hit, or with a limited use weapon, a huge lead in atk.

And not just "melee". He also has 1-2 range from two different weapons.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reikken

[Quasar]

Marcus isn't used for said rest of the game, so them beating him via a direct comparison is irrelevant.

No it's not. Marcus will be used for the rest of the game.

13 Lance, B Alan B Roy

Hell, let's compare him to a noncombat unit:

14 Chad, B Lugh

What? Let's start with the more atrocius one, 14 Chad. You said it yourself - noncombat unit. Yet he's gained 13 levels during seven chapters. Yes thieves get more exp from combat but this is just ridiculous. Also 13 Lance and all supports you suggested are very much blown out of proportions for chapter nine.

[Reikken]

Saying it's ridiculous without any reason as to why? You'll have to do better than that, sir.

12 level ups in nearly 10 chapters is possibly even low for Lance. 3 hits and 3 kills per chapter is enough for that, assuming same-level enemies. Granted they are often a bit lower level, but that still leaves a lot of room. 4 hits and 4 kills per ch if they're around 3 levels lower than Lance.

And supports out of proportion? lol what? It takes 45 turns to get to B with either Alan or Roy. in 9 chapters, that's a mere 5 turns per chapter, when the chapters take like 17 turns each. No, far from blown out of proportion, Lance will soon reach A with Alan.

That's 7.5 chapters for Chad, btw. Shin doesn't join at the beginning of 9. And this is also far from unreasonable. 3 hits and 3 kills per ch assuming equal levels gets him that much, or 3.5 hits and kills per ch if they're around 3 lower. Non combat unit doesn't mean he's not fighting---he usually doesn't have anything else to do, so that is indeed what he does---it just means that's not his primary function.

No it's not. Marcus will be used for the rest of the game.

Oh? Do tell why we should assume Marcus should be used in an inefficient manner.