Efficiency Tier List?

[CATS]

Except that's just EXP we made vanish. My whole team could have had better stats if we just made Marcus vanish suddenly.

So you think Marcus not existing and everyone else getting his Exp >>>>>> using Marcus from Ch 1-7 and then dropping him?

Using someone and then getting rid of them is throwing exp and thus stats in the trash. It's not like the piddling bit he took from being utility early on, but rather serious kills throughout most of the game. It's not stealing kills, but it's certainly making them vanish.

So what? You don't get any special benefit by continuing to use him. The exp that he gained early on won't start magically transferring to the rest of the team if you keep him on the field. It's not going anywhere. This isn't a reason to keep using him. If I now have a better unit who could be going in Marcus's slot, even if this new unit has gained exactly 0 exp, then that unit goes in Marcus's spot and Marcus hits the bench. The exp that Marcus has already gained has zero relevance to anything.

Edited August 29, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

Jackal, I think you're getting the wrong idea about how Marcus gets experience. Like I said earlier, he can often leave kills for others when it's safe to do so, so a lot of the experience he gets is actually the result of funneling experience into other units you wish to use. Such as, if our planned team is Alan, Lance, Rutger, and Lot, or something (and Clarine/Ellen, but that's irrelevant) and no one else, Marcus can help us funnel kills into them specifically better than other characters in msot situations, so I won't even have the need to have someone like Ward take a swing on occasion because an enemy was left alive or we need three units to kill one enemy.

And when Marcus actually kills, I assume it's because that enemy was posing a real threat to the team, so he easily could have just saved someone's ass.

[grandjackal]

I DO think so, because it's what keeps him going. He's basically able to go all game, just needing a tidbit of fixing in lategame of which he can do on simply equipment. I'd take that over someone who'd need to be fed kills for most of their existence or right up until they stop sucking.

[CATS]

Okay. You going to actually respond to anything else that was said?

[grandjackal]

Does it really matter when either way, he'd be in high tier regardless?

Well either way, moving Marcus up to bottom of high for now.

[CATS]

Does it really matter when either way, he'd be in high tier regardless?

You'll notice that I haven't mentioned "Marcus should be high tier" even once.

[grandjackal]

Does it really matter when either way, he'd be in high tier regardless?

You'll notice that I haven't mentioned "Marcus should be high tier" even once.

3 others have.

[Reikken]

He isn't 3 others.

Anyway, this fundamental issue I see as more important than one unit's placement. Dropping Marcus means the exp you gave him is no longer being used, yes, but what does that actually mean? Nothing in itself. As was said, exp isn't what matters; stats are. We drop Marcus so that we have room to field someone who's more useful. If we had infinite unit slots, then yes, keeping him would be the best idea since he's certainly far from a liability even lategame, but we don't, and he's just not as helpful as other units are after those early chapters.

We lose his exp, o noz! What's worse, continuing to block a unit slot and pour exp into someone who will give back little in return, or replacing him with someone who performs better from that point on (perhaps not better immediately, but overall, considering only from there on)?

[Reikken]

It's probable Wolt won't be used later but that's no excuse to have Marcus damage two enemies and have Alan, Lance and Roy take the rest of the map on by themselves. If you are given resources with no cost (unit slot) there is no reason for you to not use them effectively. If you have enough time to prance around killing things with only three characters you might as well have used all the characters available, clear the chapter faster and hit the next arena and use the bonus turns you just saved this way to upgrade your characters.

It's not that Wolt and Marcus and even Bors aren't fighting. They are. It's that the killing blows are going to Alan, Lance, Roy, whoever you're using long term, whenever possible.

What do you have to gain by moving Alan (or whoever) farther ahead than the rest of the team when he has to wait for them to catch up anyway or else get himself killed? Moving deeper into enemy lines than anyone else, with no one able to back him up, will indeed result in his death. He's not invincible, especially early on and without supports.

If someone just attacked something that was close and is left behind a bit because of it, then yes, it's expected that you won't be building supports with that unit that turn. That's why I subtracted out the turns spent attacking. Yes, this is the unit's supporter who did the attacking rather than the unit in question, but just the same, you have times when the unit in question attacks and the unit's supporter doesn't and so can spend that turn building supports. Not all attacks result in the attacker being left behind. Most don't.

With this, I might as well return Zealot to upper mid since he's basically Marcus with better lategame durability but without the epic chapters, though I'm not 100% that his minions should follow..

Losing the epic chapters means losing the entire reason Marcus is good in the first place. Zealt in upper mid? Naw. Noah, however... I don't see why he's so far below Lot, who he's quite similar to. Gonzales, too. Why is he below Lot at all? This guy is actually good. Like high tier.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Reikken

[Quasar]

What do you have to gain by moving Alan (or whoever) farther ahead than the rest of the team when he has to wait for them to catch up anyway or else get himself killed? Moving deeper into enemy lines than anyone else, with no one able to back him up, will indeed result in his death. He's not invincible, especially early on and without supports.

Let's take "whoever" here because I admit it's less of a problem with the Cavs. I already said you don't move the characters in situations where they would get themselves killed. Now let's say we move Lot two spaces away from his support partner. What we have gained by doing this is effectively give Lot +2 movement range for the turn. If you ask me it makes perfect sense since being able to move further gives you more and better options than what you had with less move. Do note that if you'd have to retreat the next turn it's not worth going in to begin with.

If someone just attacked something that was close and is left behind a bit because of it, then yes, it's expected that you won't be building supports with that unit that turn. That's why I subtracted out the turns spent attacking.

What the numbers don't show is that catching up with the rest of the team isn't going to happen immediately in every case. Facing two enemies with a team of ten is going to leave some of the party behind for some turns.

Well, either way I suppose it doesn't matter anymore. I actually had to go and check where this all began just now.

Losing the epic chapters means losing the entire reason Marcus is good in the first place. Zealt in upper mid? Naw. Noah, however... I don't see why he's so far below Lot, who he's quite similar to. Gonzales, too. Why is he below Lot at all? This guy is actually good. Like high tier.

I recall someone proving Zealot > Noah/Treck in this thread unless it was eaten up. Maybe the person who did it can say something about this, I haven't looked to them.

Gonzales was recently kind of screwed over. There used to be two versions of Gonzales for each route split and the better one was right above Shin. It was suggested that they be next to each other and then they got merged to one. The worse one.

Both are worth a look if you ask me.

[Narga_Rocks]

He isn't 3 others.

Anyway, this fundamental issue I see as more important than one unit's placement. Dropping Marcus means the exp you gave him is no longer being used, yes, but what does that actually mean? Nothing in itself. As was said, exp isn't what matters; stats are. We drop Marcus so that we have room to field someone who's more useful. If we had infinite unit slots, then yes, keeping him would be the best idea since he's certainly far from a liability even lategame, but we don't, and he's just not as helpful as other units are after those early chapters.

We lose his exp, o noz! What's worse, continuing to block a unit slot and pour exp into someone who will give back little in return, or replacing him with someone who performs better from that point on (perhaps not better immediately, but overall, considering only from there on)?

I don't think that's the issue. I think the idea Robo Ky has is that if we didn't use Marcus then the hits and kills that went to him could have gone to other units, improving their stats. When we get the unit that was supposed to replace Marcus anyway, or whatever, the other units have better stats and Marcus being dropped doesn't mean anything went to waste. If he was allowed to get meaningful experience, then we should continue to use him because otherwise once he's dropped there was no benefit from the sunken experience.

Issue is, the whole point of using Marcus is that it's more efficient in the early chapters, and as for dropping him and missing out on the sunken experience, well, the loss in stats to other units likely doesn't cause enough of a drop in efficiency to counteract the benefits of his earlier use. If it can be done later without that extra exp anyway, then speeding up the earlier parts and making those easier is worth it.

[Reikken]

This "sunken experience" applies to units who stay on the team as well. It applies to every combat unit. ...And the fact that it doesn't apply to healers and dancers is another part of what makes them awesome and is why Lalum is too low.

Let's take "whoever" here because I admit it's less of a problem with the Cavs. I already said you don't move the characters in situations where they would get themselves killed. Now let's say we move Lot two spaces away from his support partner. What we have gained by doing this is effectively give Lot +2 movement range for the turn. If you ask me it makes perfect sense since being able to move further gives you more and better options than what you had with less move. Do note that if you'd have to retreat the next turn it's not worth going in to begin with.

Yes, sometimes it may be beneficial to move farther than where your supporter can move and have nothing to do with someone attacking that turn, but that's a rare case, and stuff like that is the real reason for me adding "Even blank out a turn completely for no reason". It's already accounted for.

What the numbers don't show is that catching up with the rest of the team isn't going to happen immediately in every case. Facing two enemies with a team of ten is going to leave some of the party behind for some turns.

For Lance and his move? Naw.

Also, facing two enemies with a team of ten usually won't leave some of the party behind since you can just use the units who were more in the back to begin with to finish off the units who attacked and were presumably counterattacked by those who are in the front.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Reikken

[CATS]

Does it really matter when either way, he'd be in high tier regardless?

You'll notice that I haven't mentioned "Marcus should be high tier" even once.

3 others have.

Okay. So do you have any sort of actual response, or not?

I don't think that's the issue. I think the idea Robo Ky has is that if we didn't use Marcus then the hits and kills that went to him could have gone to other units, improving their stats.

So you think Marcus not existing and everyone else getting his Exp >>>>>> using Marcus from Ch 1-7 and then dropping him?

I mean if this is honestly your position, it's perfectly possible. Just take all his weapons in Ch 1 and make him die. Now he doesn't exist and other units will get his Exp, so you'll be better off, right?

Or if this isn't your position, then stop talking about it as if it means anything.

If he was allowed to get meaningful experience, then we should continue to use him because otherwise once he's dropped there was no benefit from the sunken experience.

Bullshat on a stick. Hypothetical: Unit A joins in the Prologue and is your only unit for the next 5 chapters. Unit B joins in Ch 5 and has 5 times higher stats than Unit A in every area. You have one deployment slot in Ch 6. Which unit do you deploy in Ch 6?

It's a rhetorical question, because the answer is stupid obvious. I'm just saying this to demonstrate exactly how ridiculous it is to claim that Marcus should continue to be used because otherwise you're "sinking Exp" and "making Exp vanish" and other such nonsense.

Edited August 29, 2009 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

It's not like we gave Marcus 10 levels of EXP, he'll MAYBE level once [perhaps twice] by the time he's dropped, and most of that was from not killing EXP. Cry harder, please. I'm sorry, but that's just a pathetic excuse to bone over utility characters, oh noes a trivial amount of EXP.

[grandjackal]

You people DO realize Marcus is perfectly usable for quite a bit of midgame, right? I'm dead serious when I say his only problem is lategame offense, and you can double check the goddamn numbers if you want. Marcus can be used past 1-7, thus why I brought up using him seriously. He can be, and he only has 1 damned rough spot, of which he can fix with the huge amount of weapons he could choose from, since he's had all game to build any rank he could imagine. When he's perfectly usable throughout the game when you people just want to drop him stuns me. He could have supports going and his mere presence would be a benefit to the team, especially since he can get a square going with Roy's Boys. I don't see why we shouldn't use him seriously when we damn well can. Dropping him eventually is just a waste. It's great to drop someone after their peak, but it's only good if they suck afterwards anyways (Walt), Marcus does not. I acknowledge he's way too damn helpful early on, that plus being perfectly fine midgame and at least being able to dodge and use various weapons according to the situation lategame, thenperfectly usable endgame lands him in high tier.

As for the Zealot issue, that's why they'd be a tier apart. Zealot is better than his two minions, because to basically match Zealot's bases, they gotta get all the way to promotion, of which they pretty much stay like him with more luck. But now they have another problem, weapon choice, of which Zealot starts with nice ranks and all the time to build them all up.

I have no idea how I'm boning over a completely usable character just by fielding him. Here's the idea: Of COURSE we'd normally drop him after his normal utility is spent. However, if he gets this nice of mileage throughout the game, it shows he is still usable past his utility, and thus if the player wants, he or she can continue to use him. I mean if that were the case, I'd be dropping Echidna faster than you can say "Why are you dropping Echidna?". They're both high because they got utility, and they're quite good for most of the game with like 1 or 2 rough patches of which they can fix.

I dont know why you're getting all butt-hurt about "boning over a utility guy", when even with my rule he's getting to freaking high tier.

[Reikken]

I know Marcus is "usable" midgame and even somewhat for late. That's not the point. Please pay better attention. The point is that loads of others are still better, so your best course of action is to drop Marcus for someone better. Therefore, he is more useful if you are able to drop him once he's no longer good. He gained exp. So what? His replacement is more useful than him even though he gained exp.

Or are you trying to say that there aren't loads of others better than Marcus from a certain point on?

I dont know why you're getting all butt-hurt about "boning over a utility guy", when even with my rule he's getting to freaking high tier.

"this fundamental issue I see as more important than one unit's placement."

As for the Zealot issue, that's why they'd be a tier apart. Zealot is better than his two minions, because to basically match Zealot's bases, they gotta get all the way to promotion, of which they pretty much stay like him with more luck. But now they have another problem, weapon choice, of which Zealot starts with nice ranks and all the time to build them all up.

Mm, not quite. Noah, for instance, at 20, before promotion, ties Zealot's base in spd and def, and loses in res, but the other stats are higher, notably str by 2 and luck by 6. Of course Zealot will have gained some levels himself, but this is before promotion. After a crest, he beats Zealot's bases in all stats save res. A lv 8 Zealot loses str by 2, spd by 0.5, skl by 1.5, luck by 5, wins res by 3

Of course, pure stats aren't everything. There are also supports, and indeed, weapon levels. Noah's base wpn lvs are pretty nice, starting with a C in swords. Unlike all the other cavaliers, who start with E swords and so need a lot of work before being able to use all those D and then C swords, he won't be lacking in anything (except in ability to use that silver lance) until he promotes, when his axe levels will be low.

And then supports. Zealot's most viable options (none are very good, given current positions on the list) are Treck and Noah themselves, and Tate.

Noah's are Treck and Zealot, and Fir. Fire-anima >>>>> dark-ice (and also Fir doesn't suck, especially with a Noah support). Well I guess dark-ice isn't too bad for Zealot, since he's lacking in crit avo and hit. However, it gives him no atk, while Noah is getting 3. So that str lead effectively increases to 5. And if we throw in a support with Treck for each, the atk difference increases even more. So Zealot's defense is pretty cool, but offense? not so much.

Then, of course, Noah's growths > Zealot's, such that by near the end..

20/10 Noah, A Fir, B Treck

Killer lance: 31.6 atk, 17.6 AS, 131.9 hit, 51.2 crit - - 70.0 avo, 46.5 hp, 17.6 def, 8.2 res, 31.8 critavo

14 Zealot, A Tate, B Treck

Killer lance: 24.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 132.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo, 44.8 hp, 15.9 def, 9.9 res, 31.9 critavo

Killer axe: 25.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 122.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo

Edited August 29, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

I know Marcus is "usable" midgame and even somewhat for late. That's not the point. Please pay better attention. The point is that loads of others are still better, so your best course of action is to drop Marcus for someone better. Therefore, he is more useful if you are able to drop him once he's no longer good. He gained exp. So what? His replacement is more useful than him even though he gained exp.

Or are you trying to say that there aren't loads of others better than Marcus from a certain point on?

I still say you can eventually drop Marcus, like msot people use him. HOWEVER, the fact that even considering he is STILL usable in some form is what ranks him so high. His utility doesn't just drop like a rock eventually (like Sue/Walt/Dorothy after chapter 7), it simply is lowered. It's a measure of long term power, and he has it unlike some characters. He goes from great to ok over the period of the entire game. Most people have a bad time, and Marcus's "bad time" he's still ok at worst. Measure this to someone like Allen who starts ok and ends up amazing (thus he is in top).

Mm, not quite. Noah, for instance, at 20, before promotion, ties Zealot's base in spd and def, and loses in res, but the other stats are higher, notably str by 2 and luck by 6. Of course Zealot will have gained some levels himself, but this is before promotion. After a crest, he beats Zealot's bases in all stats save res. A lv 8 Zealot loses str by 2, spd by 0.5, skl by 1.5, luck by 5, wins res by 3

The fact I need to give Noah a crest and whatever levels it takes him to get to level 20 should show how much Zealot's whooping his ass the entire time. To take that long just to catch up with such minor wins? Noah only wins lategame really, of which Zealot is like Marcus in hte fact he's still usable with any weapon of his choice, just a tougher version.

Of course, pure stats aren't everything. There are also supports, and indeed, weapon levels. Noah's base wpn lvs are pretty nice, starting with a C in swords. Unlike all the other cavaliers, who start with E swords and so need a lot of work before being able to use all those D and then C swords, he won't be lacking in anything (except in ability to use that silver lance) until he promotes, when his axe levels will be low.

Here is a good point, and never thought of about Noah. Weapon rank has been a weird thing in FE6, none of which has been really thought through. I think it should. This could be a good part in rising Noah up in that he can use the weapons Zealot can in the grasp of when we realistically get them, save axes. Tell me a bit more, and Noah can go above Zealot.

Also, you think it's possible for Boris to get A rank by chapter 7? ;;>> Just curious on others' thoughts is all.

And then supports. Zealot's most viable options (none are very good, given current positions on the list) are Treck and Noah themselves, and Tate.

Noah's are Treck and Zealot, and Fir. Fire-anima >>>>> dark-ice (and also Fir doesn't suck, especially with a Noah support). Well I guess dark-ice isn't too bad for Zealot, since he's lacking in crit avo and hit. However, it gives him no atk, while Noah is getting 3. So that str lead effectively increases to 5. And if we throw in a support with Treck for each, the atk difference increases even more. So Zealot's defense is pretty cool, but offense? not so much.

I'd consider they might as well support eachother really. Faster, move difference isn't severe, good all around bonuses for all of them that much quicker...I mean sure, Noah would prefer Fir, but there is move difference, chapter time and support speed to consider. Treck pretty much has no one else to support. He wouldn't mind this either, as he gets basically all around boosts for everything.

Then, of course, Noah's growths > Zealot's, such that by near the end..

20/10 Noah, A Fir, B Treck

Killer lance: 31.6 atk, 17.6 AS, 131.9 hit, 51.2 crit - - 70.0 avo, 46.5 hp, 17.6 def, 8.2 res, 31.8 critavo

14 Zealot, A Tate, B Treck

Killer lance: 24.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 132.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo, 44.8 hp, 15.9 def, 9.9 res, 31.9 critavo

Killer axe: 25.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 122.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo

Of course Noah's growths make him better in the end, but they're still pretty close considering. Well, everywhere save offense really, but I acknowledge that Noah beats Zealot lategame.

[Reikken]

Also, you think it's possible for Boris to get A rank by chapter 7? ;;>> Just curious on others' thoughts is all.

wtf no. Alan and Lance have trouble getting D swords by then.

I'd consider they might as well support eachother really. Faster, move difference isn't severe, good all around bonuses for all of them that much quicker...I mean sure, Noah would prefer Fir, but there is move difference, chapter time and support speed to consider. Treck pretty much has no one else to support. He wouldn't mind this either, as he gets basically all around boosts for everything.

Fir support isn't any slower. All three of Noah's supports are fast ones. +2s with 10 base. Zealot's Treck/Noah ones, too. The one with Tate is a 30 +1, though. Noah is better off in supports even bonuses aside. He can get full supports without needing Zealot. Indeed, he doesn't even want to support Zealot if he can help it. Zealot, on the other hand, wants Noah's support. That's a point in Noah's favor if Zealot is to support Noah. Noah is making Zealot better, and Zealot is making Noah worse. So I'll just assume they don't support for comparisons.

Anywyz, back to Noah's supports. Like I said, the Fir support isn't any slower. And for chapter time, it's 3 chapters later. Not too bad. Move difference isn't good, but that's not too bad either, given the general layout of FE6's chapters. Noah's not running off ahead or anything. But yes, support bonuses with Fir will come a bit later. He should hit A at least by the time he promotes. C Treck by the time Fir joins. B Treck/C Fir by ch 12. B Fir by 14. Alternatively, A Treck by 14x or a bit earlier, which gives him +1 atk and 2 avo for 3-4 chapters at the cost of 3 avo from 16x-end.

The fact I need to give Noah a crest and whatever levels it takes him to get to level 20 should show how much Zealot's whooping his ass the entire time. To take that long just to catch up with such minor wins? Noah only wins lategame really, of which Zealot is like Marcus in hte fact he's still usable with any weapon of his choice, just a tougher version.

Well let's see.

Hm. Zealot does have the advantage of being able to bust out the killer axes in ch 11-13, and 13 spd is pretty good for then... maybe he's better than I thought.

11 Noah, C Treck

Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 93.1 hit, 6.2 crit - - 30.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 8.2 def, 1.4 res, 12.6 critavo

2 Zealot, C Treck

Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 13.2 AS, 101.8 hit, 10.8 crit - - 33.6 avo, 35.8 hp, 11.3 def, 7.2 res, 10.2 critavo

Zealot's atk is worse than I thought, though. lol. But he can still do this!:

Steel Blade: 21.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 91.8 hit, 10.8 crit - - 27.6 avo, 35.8 hp, 11.3 def, 7.2 res, 10.2 critavo

Zealot wins defense easily, and he wins atk or AS/hit, though not really both once Noah hits C Treck. He wins both before that. Also move.

4 Zealot, B Treck

Steel Sword: 19.8 atk, 13.6 AS, 107.7 hit, 16.1 crit - - 37.7 avo, 37.2 hp, 11.9 def, 7.5 res, 15.5 critavo

Steel Blade: 22.8 atk, 10.6 AS, 97.7 hit, 16.1 crit - - 31.7 avo

Killer Axe: 22.8 atk, 13.6 AS, 102.7 hit, 46.1 crit - - 37.7 avo

14 Noah, B Treck, C Fir

Steel Sword: 21.1 atk, 11.1 AS, 101.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 41.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 10.1 def, 2.7 res, 20.8 critavo

Steel Blade: 24.1 atk, 7.1 AS, 91.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 33.0 avo

still mostly axes, so swords are what they want to be using most of the time. There are a few patches of lance heavy action, though, and a huge one coming up soon in ch 13. Zealot wins offense by a lot against lances and things that have 8-9 AS or so. Otherwise they're pretty close. Noah can use steel blades and the like, too if he's not doubling anyway and needs more damage. Zealot's defense lead is shrinking but still there, and especially prominent vs lances.

6 Zealot, A Treck, C Tate

Killer Axe: 23.2 atk, 14.0 AS, 113.7 hit, 53.3 crit - - 45.8 avo, 38.8 hp, 12.5 def, 7.7 res, 25.8 critavo

Killer Lance: 22.2 atk, 14.0 AS, 123.7 hit, 53.3 crit - - 45.8 avo

17 Noah, A Treck, B Fir

Killer Lance: 26.0 atk, 12.0 AS, 114.8 hit, 47.5 crit - - 51.0 avo, 34.5 hp, 12.0 def, 4.0 res, 30.0 critavo

Hm, who wins offense? It's not so clear anymore. Who wins defense? That's none too clear either. Zealot's lead is now very small. Move and WTA on lances are his solid leads.

8 Zealot, A Treck, C Tate

Killer Axe: 23.8 atk, 14.4 AS, 114.5 hit, 53.5 crit - - 46.8 avo, 40.2 hp, 13.1 def, 8.0 res, 26.0 critavo

Killer Lance: 22.8 atk, 14.4 AS, 124.5 hit, 53.5 crit - - 46.8 avo

20/1 Noah, A Treck, B Fir

Killer Lance: 28.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 122.1 hit, 49.2 crit - - 58.0 avo, 39.8 hp, 14.9 def, 7.3 res, 31.2 critavo

Zealot is now getting his ass kicked, and it only gets worse from here out. Yeah, I stand by my claim of Noah > Zealot. The upcoming B Tate offsets the difference in growth rate for defenses, so that loss doesn't get any worse than it already is, but the offense loss gets worse and worse.

"Zealot's whooping [Noah's] ass the entire time" up to promotion? Nay, sir.

[grandjackal]

Just a couple loose ends to bring up, and if you can tie them, then Noah>Zealot.

1. You're assuming a Fir support, saying Zealot makes him worse. Zealot comes sooner with the same speed, and there is another problem with FirxNoah. That being move difference. Zealot is far mroe flexible to building a support with Noah than Fir would be. Sure, losing out to 2 ATK might hurt for Noah, but otherwise he gets exactly the same bonuses he would anyways. Fir has other options on top of this.

2. Fine, Zealot is spanking him up until he's near promotion, that still takes a while. Even then, it's not like Noah's wins are major, just he has wins. Zealot's still got an entire axe rank to boast over.

That's all you got left, really. Glad to see someone's appreciating Zealot though. I find him underrated.

Anyways, as for Boris...Uhhh, the thing with the cavs is they switch between weapons a lot. Boris does not, and he already starts with a C in lances, on top of the fact that Lance has no reason to have a javelin for the first two chapters where you could have bought another for lance anyways in chapter 2.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic?

[_____]

Anyways, as for Boris...Uhhh, the thing with the cavs is they switch between weapons a lot. Boris does not, and he already starts with a C in lances, on top of the fact that Lance has no reason to have a javelin for the first two chapters where you could have bought another for lance anyways in chapter 2.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic?

Didn't I already prove this wrong by pointing out that Bors would need to kill half of the enemies we see in Chapters 1-6 in order to reach A lances?

[Reikken]

Far too optimistic. Alan and Lance switch weapons, yes, but they also double much more and engage the enemy more due to move, not getting doubled, and dodging.

1. Fir has other options? Like what? She usually just has Shin. Rutger's support is the slowest possible, and he has faster and much earlier supports.

The move difference was already addressed; it's not a big issue. People don't run off away from the group in FE6 HM, unless they're Miledy or Percival. What is he losing out on by supporting Fir over Zealot? On the off chance that you do need him to do some running around out of range of Fir and when he would have been in range of Zealot, he'll just have lesser stats for that turn or two, as opposed to having lesser stats the entire rest of the time. And something like that is often not something he needs massive stats for anyway. And/or just do what Alan and Lance do with Roy sometimes: rescue/drop

Even then, it's not like Noah's wins are major, just he has wins. Zealot's still got an entire axe rank to boast over.

lolwhat? Do you not see that "Killer Axe" in Zealot's stats? It's already accounted for.

and 6 atk isn't major? 7 atk and 2 AS (later) isn't major? and that combined with ~11 avo and 2 def. That >>> Zealot's leads earlier. Remember how Zealot's atk lead is 0 once Noah hits C Treck? except against lances, which pretty much DNE (do not exist) after ch 8 until ch 13.

Fine, Zealot is spanking him up until he's near promotion

When Noah is midway through the time to promotion (see "14 Noah"), Zealot is winning by less than Noah is winning after promotion

[Mekkah]

What is this hyped crap about Marcus' mid- and lategame? His atk/AS combo is too awful to hurt anything. iirc he has trouble killing unpromoted Wyverns unless he gets two consecutive Killer Axe crits. Even if he's borderline, you likely took supports into account, but Reikken already explained why Marcus supporting any of the cavs/Roy is terrible.

[Colonel M]

As for Noah and Zealot comparison, keep in mind that Zealot doesn't need a shitload of training and doesn't have a true period of suck (Noah does start on the iffy side, don't try to blow that off). It's true Noah will beat Zealot later on; however, Zealot can still pull off utility just fine with his bases.

I don't care if Noah > Zealot, but let's not try to deny that Zealot can stay in Upper Mid if we're seeing that Marcus can still perform fine.

EDIT: Alright, I'll admit Zealot has trouble with Wyverns, but I don't see many others pulling significants on them either. They're Generals with wings and enough Spd to prevent being doubled by some units.

As for the support things, wtf? Zealot's supports are iffy, but Noah isn't winning any badges either. Zealot has his Cav duo, who don't mind him. Thany and Tate aren't terrible options either since Tate likes the Avoid and the only significant other is probably Klein. Noah? His situation doesn't stand much better either. Zealot and Treck are two of them, then there's Fir which I won't deny. After that? Juuno, like Zealot has. Then Karel. Fucking. Karel.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Far too optimistic. Alan and Lance switch weapons, yes, but they also double much more and engage the enemy more due to move, not getting doubled, and dodging.

1. Fir has other options? Like what? She usually just has Shin. Rutger's support is the slowest possible, and he has faster and much earlier supports.

The move difference was already addressed; it's not a big issue. People don't run off away from the group in FE6 HM, unless they're Miledy or Percival. What is he losing out on by supporting Fir over Zealot? On the off chance that you do need him to do some running around out of range of Fir and when he would have been in range of Zealot, he'll just have lesser stats for that turn or two, as opposed to having lesser stats the entire rest of the time. And something like that is often not something he needs massive stats for anyway. And/or just do what Alan and Lance do with Roy sometimes: rescue/drop

Even then, it's not like Noah's wins are major, just he has wins. Zealot's still got an entire axe rank to boast over.

lolwhat? Do you not see that "Killer Axe" in Zealot's stats? It's already accounted for.

and 6 atk isn't major? 7 atk and 2 AS (later) isn't major? and that combined with ~11 avo and 2 def. That >>> Zealot's leads earlier. Remember how Zealot's atk lead is 0 once Noah hits C Treck? except against lances, which pretty much DNE (do not exist) after ch 8 until ch 13.

Fine, Zealot is spanking him up until he's near promotion

When Noah is midway through the time to promotion (see "14 Noah"), Zealot is winning by less than Noah is winning after promotion

Right then, Noah>Zealot

What is this hyped crap about Marcus' mid- and lategame? His atk/AS combo is too awful to hurt anything. iirc he has trouble killing unpromoted Wyverns unless he gets two consecutive Killer Axe crits. Even if he's borderline, you likely took supports into account, but Reikken already explained why Marcus supporting any of the cavs/Roy is terrible.

Crit weapons, slayer weapons, he has ways around this, though yeah his offense isn't brilliant. His supports though, helps his durability. He'd be putting them to better use than Roy would this whole time. First off, mobility matching. Secondly, Roy never starts beating Marcus until he FINALLY promotes, then he has to deal with only having one weapon type, while Marcus could have any killer/slayer he wants. C. He's more durable than Roy for the most part anyways. If anything, Marcus is much more deserving than Roy is. Roy at that time we would be protecting him anyways, it's not like we'd try to let him be in danger anyways.

If he did disprove it, he's free to show why again, cause I don't quite remember when or what he said.

[Reikken]

As for the support things, wtf? Zealot's supports are iffy, but Noah isn't winning any badges either. Zealot has his Cav duo, who don't mind him. Thany and Tate aren't terrible options either since Tate likes the Avoid and the only significant other is probably Klein. Noah? His situation doesn't stand much better either. Zealot and Treck are two of them, then there's Fir which I won't deny. After that? Juuno, like Zealot has. Then Karel. Fucking. Karel.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but...

Thany is apparently low tier (Thany < Bors? wtf), so that's pretty much out, and Tate and Treck (and Zealot and Noah) are lower mid, so they're all very iffy. So the other thing that might happen is that Noah supports Fir, and Zealot doesn't get any supports at all due to all his supporters sucking too much.

I may do a Lot vs Noah in a bit. Or a Thany vs someone in lower mid