Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Actually, I could see Thany rising too. Looked through the numbers, and supports all around with Dieck's group does some serious wonders for her. I mean like being one of the best people to fight the wyverns in chapter 7 good ;;>> But again, that might be me miscalculating again.

But Reikken, by no means am I against it. But if you could humor the crowd to see how underrated our pegasi is?

[Colonel M]

As for the support things, wtf? Zealot's supports are iffy, but Noah isn't winning any badges either. Zealot has his Cav duo, who don't mind him. Thany and Tate aren't terrible options either since Tate likes the Avoid and the only significant other is probably Klein. Noah? His situation doesn't stand much better either. Zealot and Treck are two of them, then there's Fir which I won't deny. After that? Juuno, like Zealot has. Then Karel. Fucking. Karel.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but...

Thany is apparently low tier (Thany < Bors? wtf), so that's pretty much out, and Tate and Treck (and Zealot and Noah) are lower mid, so they're all very iffy. So the other thing that might happen is that Noah supports Fir, and Zealot doesn't get any supports at all due to all his supporters sucking too much.

I may do a Lot vs Noah in a bit. Or a Thany vs someone in lower mid

You've basically just said that Noah sucks.

[Reikken]

Indeed I did, sir. Or rather, I said that the tier list says that he sucks. Anyway, on to Thany.

Thany has one very notable advantage on the likes of Bors, and Treck, Geese, Ray, and even Lot and Lugh. That she can fly? Well..yes, that's one, but not what I'm talking about. It's her promotion item. FE6 promotion items have typically have tons of competition, with you getting only 2 until quite a ways in and you having like half a dozen units who can use them. For the Elysian Whip, however, you get 3 of them, and there are only 3 potential candidates. What does this mean? It means Thany can promote whenever the hell she wants with no negative consequences at all. Even Rutger using a Hero Crest has the effect of making Lot wait. None of that for Thany.

This is hugely awesome for her. For instance, you can promote her at the beginning of the western isles chapters so that she doesn't have to be stuck with lol-lances-vs-mass-axes and instead gets both swords and con she desperately needs.

Oh and her supports are pretty w1n, too. Fast early supports with ~high tier units = awsm. And she's your only unit who can fly for 11 chapters, not that flying means something on every single one of them.

k, with that in mind, who should I compare her to? hm...

How about Lot? Hm,,, though... while that looks like an easy comparison at first, since they both join at the same time, supports get a bit confusing, as their best option is to support each other; and Thany is currently low tier, so normally Lot wouldn't be getting a Thany support, so he wouldn't have it for comparisons; but on Thany's end, Lot is near the top of upper mid, so Lot would likely be around to support her, so she would get a Lot support, and also get credit for making Lot better (and in so doing make him even more likely to be played), as without a Thany support, he can only support Deak and then wait around for Echidna and hope she's free. But then if, hypothetically, Thany were to be shown to be close to Lot on the tier list, then Thany would likely be around for Lot to support, so Lot would now get that support and also get credit for making Thany better. But actually, now that I think about it, that would only make Lot go up, not Thany down. I guess that should be alright, then.

Ok. Well I already mentioned supports, so I'll start with that, though it should be pretty obvious by now. Conveniently for Thany, her best supporters also have her as one of their two best supports. And they're fast and start the instant she joins, in ch 2. So Thany gets nice supports, and her supporters (Dieck and Lot) are improved by her supporting them. pro

25 turns to C, 30 (55 total) to B. Not quite as fast as Alan-Lance-Roy, so she likely won't get Bs by ch 7 unless you try really hard, but it's pretty close.

Lot has only one supporter, but he's awesome, and Lot supporting him makes him better. pro, though only half as pro as Thany's. Actually much less than half, since Deak does have other, albeit inferior, supports that he can go to in the absence of Lot, and while the same applies for Thany's Dieck support, for Thany's Lot support, he has no supports at all for a very long time that he can fall back on. So like maybe 3-4x as pro.

(btw I just noticed that Thany and Lot have the same str growth)

It's also worth noting that Thany gets more out of the body ring than pretty much anyone else. Echidna is the only other real contender. Tate if you use her. Hm. Echidna does get quite a lot out of it, too, though, what with all that axe spamming. +2 AS on axes vs Thany's +2 AS on everything. That's easily a greater benefit for Thany, but then again, Echidna's AS is borderline more often come late game,,, but the avo loss doesn't hurt her as much as it hurts Thany, and fast things she doesn't need axes for anyway. The only thing is that late game wyvern lords can be iffy for Echidna doubling with a killer axe. So yeah, Thany gets more out of it than anyone else. Her gain - the opportunity cost = net positive.

Thany vs Lot. Who wins?

4 Lot,

Iron Axe: 15.3 atk, 7.3 AS, 78.5 hit, 2.9 crit - - 16.9 avo, 29.8 hp, 4.4 def, 1.1 res, 2.3 critavo

2 Thany,

Slim Lance: 8.3 atk, 12.6 AS, 95.8 hit, 8.0 crit - - 30.8 avo, 17.5 hp, 6.1 def, 5.2 res, 5.6 critavo

Iron Lance: 11.3 atk, 8.6 AS, 85.8 hit, 3.0 crit - - 22.8 avo

Unsurprisingly, Lot wins combat. He can double soldiers, which are extremely numerous in ch 3 especially, one-rounding them if they're lower-end on the hp/def. And while he has less def, he has like 12 more hp. Thany isn't without her advantages, though. She wins offensively against most things that aren't soldiers or fighters, though they're rare for now, and she can only attack archers if you're able to kill it or pin it in that turn. And on the soldiers that he doesn't one-round, he doesn't have much of an advantage since Thany does enough damage to leave anyone not Chad able to finish without taking a counter. And on fighters, he does ~12 at ~76% real, while Thany does ~8 (4x2) at ~85% real despite WTD

Then he has less def but like 12 more hp and no bow weakness, so his defenses are a lot better. 2 crit avo can be annoying, though, as he faces real crit rates from some enemies. Archers, knights, RNG blessed soldiers

Also Thany has flying/mounted. Rescue/drop, visit.

ch 4 isn't too much different. Lot's defenses and atk are more important, and Thany's hit, and flying/mounted rescue/drop visit is more important. Lot still wins overall

7 Lot, C Deak

Iron Lance: 16.2 atk, 8.4 AS, 80.8 hit, 5.3 crit - - 25.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 6.6 def, 2.6 res, 8.2 critavo

5 Thany, C Deak, C Lot

Slim Lance: 10.2 atk, 14.4 AS, 104.9 hit, 10.8 crit - - 41.2 avo, 18.8 hp, 7.4 def, 7.0 res, 17.4 critavo

Iron Lance: 13.2 atk, 10.4 AS, 94.9 hit, 10.8 crit - - 33.2 avo

ch 5, things start getting better for Thany as far as combat goes and worse for Lot since mercs exist, which can double him, and he can't hit them. and forests make hit a real issue, and it's crowded and hard to move around, so Lot has more trouble finding room to attack at all. Thany's offense is better, but Lot's still owning in defense. Also, Thany with iron is as fast as Lance, soon to be faster, despite con issues.

ch 6, yay soldiers and armors for Lot, yay mages and lots of need to ferry Chad around for Thany

ch 7, Lot may hit B Dieck by now. Thany won't have Bs yet. And Lot wins combat. You get a killer axe, and only he can use it. w1n. Thany wins on mercs, archers (offensively only, of course), mages, and whatever cavs are holding swords, but Lot wins on the wyverns, soldiers, armors, and lance cavaliers, and by a lot more.

10 Lot, B Deak

Iron Axe: 18.1 atk, 9.5 AS, 83.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 33.1 avo, 34.6 hp, 8.8 def, 4.0 res, 14.1 critavo

Steel Axe: 21.1 atk, 6.5 AS, 68.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 27.1 avo

9 Thany, B Lot, B Dieck

Iron Lance: 16.4 atk, 12.8 AS, 105.5 hit, 19.9 crit - - 45.4 avo, 20.6 hp, 8.8 def, 9.0 res, 29.8 critavo

Slim Lance: 13.4 atk, 16.8 AS, 115.5 hit, 24.9 crit - - 53.4 avo

Steel Lance: 19.4 atk, 7.8 AS, 90.5 hit, 19.9 crit - - 35.4 avo

gonna throw in Noah here, too, and give him a Treck support even though it's iffy

8 Noah (no support yet)

Steel Sword: 16.6 atk, 9.6 AS, 89.0 hit, 3.7 crit - - 26.0 avo, 28.5 hp, 7.6 def, 1.2 res, 6.8 critavo

Steel Lance: 18.6 atk, 6.6 AS, 74.0 hit, 3.7 crit - - 20.0 avo

Keep in mind Lot has exclusive Killer Axe access to keep the hit and AS of iron and get the mt of steel, and get +30 hit. Though it's limited, and he undoubtedly used up a good bit of it pwning in ch 7. And Thany's crit is notable, too.

ch 8 has a lot of soldiers and armors, which Thany doubles even with a steel lance, tying Lot against them on offense for the most part. More atk/hit makes up for WTA. Armors and tankier soldiers require more atk, so Lot still wins since he can step it up to steel. Thany is better at killing everything else, though. Archers, mages, mercs.

And of course, Lot wins defense. Except against the mages and mercs. Mercs may double Lot. Thany's avo is pretty good when not using a lulzsteel lance. Steel lance users in this chapter have liek 68 hit, so they would have <5% chance to hit her if she were to use slim. Too bad she can't have both the avoid and the atk at the same time.

Offense: Thany. Defense: Lot.

Noah unfortunately does not use an axe, nor does he have massive hit for using a steel lance and still having good hit. With no supports, he is clearly worse for the moment.

From here, Thany can promote whenever you want.

8x joke chapter

9:

13 Lot, A Dieck --if not A, it'll be A soon enough, so whatever

Iron Axe: 19.0 atk, 10.5 AS, 85.3 hit, 11.3 crit - - 41.0 avo, 37.0 hp, 11.0 def, 5.5 res, 20.0 critavo

12/1 Thany, B B

Iron Sword: 17.3 atk, 20.4 AS, 128.6 hit, 21.8 crit - - 62.4 avo, 28.0 hp, 11.1 def, 11.8 res, 31.6 critavo

Iron Lance: 19.3 atk, 17.4 AS, 113.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 56.4 avo

Steel Lance: 22.3 atk, 12.4 AS, 98.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 46.4 avo

11 Noah, C Treck

Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 93.1 hit, 6.2 crit - - 30.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 8.2 def, 1.4 res, 12.6 critavo

Unfortunately, E swords. 0% real vs axes, though, and somethinglow vs anything else, of which there is not much. And Thany doubles, while the other two usually don't. Noah vs Lot? Lot wins defense with his hp (and def), and Noah wins offense due to actually having decent hit. Also Thany's move lead matters a lot more now than it did since she has defense to use it. She doesn't even need her supports to face <1% real vs axes, and there's not much else in this chapter.

Thany's also good at attacking bosses now. No C for killing edges, so she's not as good as Rutger or anything, except in that she can get to them before Rutger can, but pretty good since she has the massive hit and AS that most others lack.

10: pretty similar, but with more mercs. Worse for Lot, good for Noah and Thany as they have lances. Especially Thany as she can double them (!). Lot and Noah risk getting doubled by some of the mercs. There are a few archers (2), but not to worry as Thany can take a hit from an archer and a merc and still be alive. And they have ~32% real on her. Also Thany-A-Lot now or very soon.

11: more of the same. The fighters h4x a bit more due to jumping up like 3 levels, though, so Thany's leads matter more. Also you can use flying skillz + Lalum if you want to ferry some people over for a super shortcut, get to the villages in time, go shopping early (killer axes ftw), or whatever.

16 Lot, Deak

Killer Axe: 22.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 87.5 hit, 41.7 crit - - 43.9 avo, 39.4 hp, 12.2 def, 5.9 res, 20.9 critavo

Hand Axe: 18.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 72.5 hit, 11.7 crit - - 43.9 avo

12/3 Thany, supports:

Steel Sword: 21.9 atk, 16.6 AS, 118.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 58.0 avo, 28.9 hp, 11.3 def, 12.2 res, 37.8 critavo

Iron Sword: 18.9 atk, 21.6 AS, 133.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 68.0 avo

Javelin: 19.9 atk, 15.6 AS, 103.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 56.0 avo

15 Noah B Treck, C Fir

Steel Sword: 21.4 atk, 11.4 AS, 102.5 hit, 12.1 crit - - 42.0 avo, 33.0 hp, 10.4 def, 2.8 res, 21.2 critavo

Javelin: 19.4 atk, 10.4 AS, 87.5 hit, 12.1 crit - - 40.0 avo

Noah finally beats Lot on defense if it's against axes. Thany beats both as long as it's not against bows. Offense, Thany. But Noah vs Lot? Hit vs crit

12x: Thany can double those pesky myrmidons and may double some thieves.

13: lots of lances is good for Lot. He has trouble doubling them, though, especially the wyverns (and paladins--no chance there). Noah is the same except he doesn't get to have an axe.

19 Lot, Dieck

Killer Axe: 23.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 89.8 hit, 42.1 crit - - 47.0 avo, 41.8 hp, 13.4 def, 6.4 res, 21.8 critavo

Hand Axe: 19.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 74.8 hit, 12.1 crit - - 47.0 avo

12/5 Thany, supports

Killer Lance: 24.5 atk, 18.8 AS, 126.2 hit, 54.9 crit - - 63.6 avo, 29.8 hp, 11.5 def, 12.8 res, 39.0 critavo

Killing Edge: 23.5 atk, 20.8 AS, 136.2 hit, 54.9 crit - - 67.6 avo

Javelin: 20.5 atk, 16.8 AS, 106.2 hit, 24.9 crit - - 59.6 avo

18 Noah, A Treck, B Fir

Killer Lance: 26.3 atk, 12.3 AS, 116.0 hit, 47.8 crit - - 52.0 avo, 35.2 hp, 12.3 def, 4.1 res, 30.4 critavo

Javelin: 22.3 atk, 11.3 AS, 96.0 hit, 17.8 crit - - 50.0 avo

killer lances ftw. Now even better at slaying bosses. Still not as good as Rutger or anything, assuming he promoted, since he has that lulz +30 crit, again aside from being able to get there faster.

14: lol desert (flying) full of axes (swords/avo), mages (res/hit/1-2), merc/heroes (AS/lances), and status staves (res. and flying/offense to go kill them ASAP). Thany >>>. Also wyverns (AS -- wyvern lords especially are hard to double). Noah's move sucks even more than Lot's. His stats are slightly better otherwise.

14x. Pirates! and water, and speedy swordies, and promoted mages throwing boltings at you. Looks like a job for Thany.

Thany >> the other two, but Noah beats Lot at offense in general, and also wins defense against the pirates and mercs, while Lot wins def against the wyverns.

15: This chapter has the best enemies ever. There need to be way more of them, instead of only 2. I'm talking about valkyries. 8 move 18 AS mages ftw. 23 atk. They also have ~47 avo. Noah can be one-rounded pretty easily. Lot has too much hp/res to be one-rounded outright, but he'll have single-digit hp afterwards. The aircalibur one does a lot of damage to Thany if she doesn't dodge (not enough for a OHK, but pretty close), but Thany can double them, and the elfire one she pwns. Also loads of high level (lv 17-18) mercs with 16-17 AS, so Thany's massive spd comes in handy. And some 13 AS wyvern riders. Long bow archers that Thany doesn't really care too much about (86 hit, and they're weak for a bow), but also some silver bow snipers. Dangerous for anyone but especially Thany as they have ~30 atk with ~108 hit and don't die easily at all (44 hp, 10 def, 12 AS, 35 avo). Keep her from being attacked, and you can put her offense to good use against them. Lot avoids a 2HK because he's pro like that, but they're surrounded by mercs which may double him.

Lot's defense > Noah's since Noah's getting doubled by those mercs, too, and there are no axes, but Noah's offense is considerably better. Lot's ~55 displayed hit on those snipers (and fail on the mercs) is saddening. Noah actually has hit and also has more attack. Even the cavaliers Lot has 75 (~88% real) on. They're fairly evenly matched, I suppose.

16: long range magic and status staves, mercs, fighters, mages, and armors. Not much that Lot wins against. Noah gets the WTA on the physical enemies, and Lot sucks at hitting everything except the armors. Everything else has liek 30 avo, except the mercs. Noah's offense >>, and he doesn't lose defense too much. Lot tanks those magic hits better, though, and this chapter has quite a lot.

20/1 Lot, A Deak, C Echidna

Killer Axe: 28.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 98.5 hit, 43.8 crit - - 56.9 avo, 50.6 hp, 17.8 def, 7.5 res, 27.1 critavo

Iron Bow: 23.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 113.5 hit, 13.8 crit - - 56.9 avo

Hand Axe: 24.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 83.5 hit, 13.8 crit - - 56.9 avo

12/8 Thany, supports

Killer Lance: 25.4 atk, 20.6 AS, 130.4 hit, 55.7 crit - - 69.0 avo, 31.1 hp, 11.8 def, 13.5 res, 40.8 critavo

Killing Edge: 24.4 atk, 22.6 AS, 135.4 hit, 55.7 crit - - 73.0 avo

Javelin: 21.4 atk, 18.6 AS, 110.5 hit, 25.7 crit - - 65.0 avo

20/1 Noah, supports

Killer Lance: 28.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 122.1 hit, 49.2 crit - - 58.0 avo, 39.8 hp, 14.9 def, 7.3 res, 31.2 critavo

Javelin: 24.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 102.1 hit, 19.2 crit - - 58.0 avo

In case you were wondering, Lot and Noah didn't gain many levels because of the level cap and being unable to promote until after 16.

woo, Lot now can have hit. Unfortunately all his atk disappears with it, as does his melee, but it can still be quite useful. And he doesn't lose the atk against wyverns and pegs.

Lot's hp/def is now wtf high. He won't die to anything. His offense is much better but still lacking in hit.

Noah's defense is quite high as well now, so he shouldn't have much issue there, and, as always, his offense is better, though it's not as notable as before. Unless we're going to Sacae.

For Thany... her concrete defenses are now much worse by comparison except against magic, though you now have a delphi shield to throw around, and her avoid is pretty good. It's overall worse for sure, but not too bad. Lot's is overkill. And if you really need the avoid, more than you need offense, you can use an iron sword or slim lance (or that body ring) for 77 avo at the above level. Attack and then trade up a lighter weapon so that you don't sac offense, at least on player phase. Though even with a light weapon, her offense may still beat Lot's...

Her atk has fallen behind, but her offense is still better because of spd/hit/crit.

This picture doesn't change too much from here, in how they compare. Lot will get yet more def once B Echidna hits (if he's getting the support at all... He won't mind the loss in defenses too much if he doesn't have it, but he'll also be losing atk and hit). Other than that, Lot and Noah have quite similar growths, and all three have the same str growth, though Thany levels more slowly.

L8r:

20/7 Lot, A Diek, B Echidna

Killer Axe: 29.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 44.7 crit - - 67.9 avo, 55.4 hp, 21.2 def, 9.4 res, 33.9 critavo

Silver Axe: 33.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 96.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo

Iron Bow: 24.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 121.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo

Hand Axe: 24.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 91.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo

12/12 Thany, supports

Killing Edge: 25.6 atk, 25.0 AS, 141.1 hit, 56.8 crit - - 80.2 avo, 32.9 hp, 12.2 def, 14.5 res, 43.2 critavo

Silver Lance: 30.6 atk, 22.0 AS, 126.0 hit, 26.8 crit - - 74.2 avo

Iron Sword: 21.6 atk, 27.0 AS, 146.1 hit, 26.8 crit - - 84.2 avo

Javelin: 22.6 atk, 21.0 AS, 116.0 hit, 26.8 crit - - 72.2 avo

20/7 Noah, supports

Killer Lance: 30.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 128.8 hit, 50.5 crit - - 64.0 avo, 44.2 hp, 16.7 def, 7.9 res, 33.6 critavo

Silver Lance: 34.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 118.8 hit, 20.6 crit - - 64.0 avo

Javelin: 26.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 108.8 hit, 20.6 crit - - 64.0 avo

Hand Axe: 27.7 atk, 103.8 hit

21 def. I lol'd. Because that's totally necessary, especially with his 68 avo and 55 hp. Anyway, Lot and Noah can double some stuff now. Things that aren't ubermassively slow. Things that are as fast as just kinda slow they can double. Meanwhile Thany can even double NTs and SMs. Silvers are available, but unfortunately, Lot's crappy hit gets even crappier if he goes with silver. Noah fares much better in that regard, especially since he also has swords.

Those flying doods also like to pack axereavers, which is especially troublesome for Lot. He can slap them with a bow on player phase, but he can't do much about enemy phase. If Ilia, and he manages D bows while still fighting pegs, he can OHK the unpromoted ones with a steel bow.

On defense, Noah's 17 def is plenty enough. Thany's is lacking, but 80ish avo is quite nice, so she's not too bad off.

l8r still

20/11 Lot

Killer Axe: 31.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 109.0 hit, 45.3 crit - - 71.9 avo, 58.3 hp, 22.8 def, 10.0 res, 35.1 critavo

Silver Axe: 35.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 99.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo

Iron Bow: 26.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 124.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo

Hand Axe: 27.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 94.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo

Steel Bow vs wings: 47.1 atk, 109.0 hit

12/15 Thany

Killing Edge: 26.5 atk, 25.8 AS, 144.9 hit, 57.5 crit - - 83.6 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.5 def, 15.2 res, 45.0 critavo

Silver Lance: 31.5 atk, 22.8 AS, 129.9 hit, 27.6 crit - - 77.6 avo

Iron Sword: 22.5 atk, 27.8 AS, 149.9 hit, 27.6 crit - - 87.6 avo

Javelin: 23.5 atk, 21.8 AS, 120.0 hit, 27.6 crit - - 75.6 avo

20/11 Noah

does Noah have enough w1n for a killer axe? Maybe if he went Ilia. No if Sacae.

Killer Axe: 32.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 122.9 hit, 51.4 crit - - 68.0 avo, 47.2 hp, 17.9 def, 8.3 res, 35.2 critavo

Killer Lance: 31.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 132.9 hit, 51.4 crit - - 68.0 avo

Silver Lance: 35.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 122.9 hit, 21.4 crit - - 68.0 avo

Javelin: 27.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 112.9 hit, 21.4 crit - - 68.0 avo

Hm, killer axe probably doesn't matter too much, actually. More avoid vs axes, but he has massive def anyway. I guess it's nice on wyvern lords.

Lot can double any unpromoted wyvern rider that has a steel lance equipped, but he'll have some trouble with the faster javelin ones, and the killer lance ones and wyvern lords he likely won't double. So he can one-round the ones he doubles on player phase without any need for a crit. He still has to hit, though, and he loses his WTA with a bow, and iron usually isn't quite strong enough to get the job done, so he has to resort to steel. 109 hit - liek 33 avo = 88.7% real = 78.7% chance of not missing and successfully one-rounding on player phase. With a killer axe counterattack, that's 96.2%*37 crit = 58.5%.

What's also cool is that if you have the luxury of being able to position him at the edge of the wyvern's range, he can counterattack javelins with a bow. And even if he can't double, he'll still leave it with ~16 hp almost 90% of the time. Half hp for the wyvern lords.

Thany doubles all of them obviously, but she's is borderline on having enough power to kill a wyvern rider with a killer lance crit. Chance of pulling off a crit is about 75.5%. Chance of two, killing no matter what, is about 24.5%. So her offense is better than Lot's on enemy phase, about the same on player phase. At least against wyvern riders. Lot still loses against all other things that aren't generals. Even he doubles, his chance of hitting twice ~= Thany's chance of critting unless it uses a lance, and he doesn't have enough power to 2HK much anyway. Unless he uses a silver axe, in which case his chance of hitting twice < her chance of getting a crit. And that's on things he doubles. He fails on things he doesn't. Noah has borderline AS for wyvern riders but plenty of atk for 2HKing if one is a crit, no hit issues, and more crit than Lot. Not as much as Thany, though. So... his offense is probably pretty similar. Vs wyvern riders. Against other things, his offense is a bit better than Lot's, with his massive skl and +hit supporters.

On defense, Lot is lol, Noah is beastly, and Thany has 80 avo with 4 AS loss and no WTA. She still needs to watch out for silver lance wyvern lords, as those do a lot of damage, and she can't dodge them too reliably (~12% real).

And that's pretty much THE END.

So Lot is pretty cool in the first few chapters. Better than Thany. His lead steadily drops off, until it probably doesn't exist by ch8. Then soon after that, Thany promotes and starts owning, and oddly enough, she wins by more and more the closer Lot gets to promotion, rather than the opposite as is usually the case with unpromoted units vs promoted ones. After promotion, it's offense vs defense.

Oh, and Thany's supports are more helpful.

Noah misses out on early stuff, and he gets beaten soundly when he first joins up, and then the western isles' mass axes gives him a good bit of padding, giving him time to build supports and catch up, and from then on, he's pretty solid, marginally beating Lot forever after killer lances/swords appear. That may still leave him worse, though, and it does assume an iffy support.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Wonderfully said, but a couple notes.

-I noticed you didn't bring Ward into the equation, despite the fact they all can get to BBC faster than AB. 3 Cs is better than 2, and it's helping 3 rather than 2.

-Promoting her early seems even long term it doesn't hurt her much. 12/15 is like being 20/5, right?

-I'd still consider Lot's early win>Noah marginally beating him later. You basically have shown that Noah's Lot on a horse with glasses, though not quite as good durability.

Otherwise, it sounds good. I'm guessing you want Noah (and consequently, Treck and Zealot) in upper mid, Thany around Lot's level?

[Reikken]

12/15 ~= 20/7, except for her spd. She's probably 20/12 by the end if she promotes at 20.

and indeed. Ward is quite low on the list. I didn't want to include something that requires me to use someone bad

Treck and Zealot? Treck has a much worse start (lower spd, lower con, E swords), so he's certainly worse. He does get to have +2 atk by late game, though, as well as +1 def. I don't think that's too helpful, though, as Noah's problems aren't atk and def after promotion. I guess he'll have an easier time 2HKing some enemies. I guess they're both still fairly close even if they are worse, so not enough to be in different tiers, unless Noah is at the bottom of the tier.

Really, I think some of it is that Lot, while good, is a bit too high. by like 6 slots. Or at least Lot without a Thany support. With that, he'll be a good bit better. +7 hit, +3 atk for all of midgame. (+5 hit and +2 atk by when he otherwise gets C Echidna)

[grandjackal]

12/15 ~= 20/7, except for her spd. She's probably 20/12 by the end if she promotes at 20.

and indeed. Ward is quite low on the list. I didn't want to include something that requires me to use someone bad

Doesn't sound too off her normal performance. She'd be doubling anyways, not like she'd be hitting much harder (2 STR at best with that gap)...Very well then, but first let's get all this sorted out.

Mekkah has brought up Ward, who's currently in the middle of lower mid. However, for a vague reason I feel he could rise...Very unreasonable, but it's there. I think his affinity is just too much a boon to his team.

Treck and Zealot? Treck has a much worse start (lower spd, lower con, E swords), so he's certainly worse. He does get to have +2 atk by late game, though, as well as +1 def. I don't think that's too helpful, though, as Noah's problems aren't atk and def after promotion. I guess he'll have an easier time 2HKing some enemies. I guess they're both still fairly close even if they are worse, so not enough to be in different tiers, unless Noah is at the bottom of the tier.

To be honest, there is a bit of difference between Treck and them. Then again, he's weird. Technically, his advantage is he's leveling faster.

But otherwise if Noah moves, Zealot's at least going with him. They're very close in their own ways and different functions.

Really, I think some of it is that Lot, while good, is a bit too high. by like 6 slots. Or at least Lot without a Thany support. With that, he'll be a good bit better. +7 hit, +3 atk for all of midgame. (+5 hit and +2 atk by when he otherwise gets C Echidna)

And this is where I ask, where do you want Lot? I'll drop Lot (no one's really contested him yet, I think he could be taken down a peg or two about now), then I'll put Thany above him. Either way, I just don't see him dropping out of upper mid.

[Reikken]

drop Lot, put Thany above, and then move him back up (ftw)

Ward? I dunno.. His single-hit offense does get pretty good, but that spd... Even after promotion, he runs the risk of being doubled by mage/sages and wyvern lords, and he fails things that should be easy to double, like random unpromoted archers and the like. And doesn't just run the risk of being doubled by mercs and such, he gets doubled with no questions asked, and with his much worse def than Lot's, that's very bad. Even many of the pirates in like 14x double him, and knights are sometimes too fast for him. Like these 4-5 AS knights in ch 16, he can't deviate down on spd at all for. Also generals late game have about 8 AS, so he's cutting it very close there, too. Who would he go above? He may even be too high..

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

drop Lot, put Thany above, and then move him back up (ftw)

Ward? I dunno.. His single-hit offense does get pretty good, but that spd... Even after promotion, he runs the risk of being doubled by mage/sages and wyvern lords, and he fails things that should be easy to double, like random unpromoted archers and the like. And doesn't just run the risk of being doubled by mercs and such, he gets doubled with no questions asked, and with his much worse def than Lot's, that's very bad. Even many of the pirates in like 14x double him, and knights are sometimes too fast for him. Like these 4-5 AS knights in ch 16, he can't deviate down on spd at all for. Also generals late game have about 8 AS, so he's cutting it very close there, too. Who would he go above? He may even be too high..

It's been shown due to his great HP, that he has great durability even considering he's getting doubled. He's goddamn awesome in Sacae for example. On top of it with Thany rising, he's got a support that does something that his others don't-Give him more accuracy. He's very capable of getting max power too (A Thany, B Lot-5 ATK, 1 Def, 17 avoid, 20 hit, 20 crit). Even for one hit, that's quite a bit going for him.

Though he DOES have a lategame problem with his shit-storm speed...but either way, he is by no means low tier. I'm positive Mekkah would challenge you on that, and for the most part I agree with him.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Reikken]

How is he awesome in Sacae? He takes about 9 damage per nomad, 15 from myrmidons, 20 from NTs, about 21 from magic, 26 from promoted magic, and 20-45 from wyvern lords, with no real chance of dodging except the silver lance lords (silver lance and axereaver lords). That's not good.

I guess he can main iron bows so that he can counterattack the short bows with good hit. That can be pretty cool.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

How is he awesome in Sacae? He takes about 9 damage per nomad, 15 from myrmidons, 20 from NTs, about 21 from magic, 26 from promoted magic, and 20-45 from wyvern lords, with no real chance of dodging except the silver lance lords (silver lance and axereaver lords). That's not good.

I guess he can main iron bows so that he can counterattack the short bows with good hit. That can be pretty cool.

Not much are doing much better really. Sacaens also have a habit of being hard to hit, of which with his supports and bows can not only counter nomads, he can do so accurately with plenty of power behind his shot. He's got huge HP, so that damage is rather no as bad as it seems.

[Reikken]

I guess he's fine where he is.

But Gonzales... This guy is too amazing to not be high tier. Spd > hit, srsly.

16 Lot, B Deak, A Thany

Killer Axe: 25.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 94.5 hit, 46.7 crit - - 45.9 avo, 39.4 hp, 12.2 def, 5.9 res, 30.9 critavo

9 Gonzales

Killer Axe: 28.9 atk, 12.4 AS, 83.9 hit, 33.6 crit - - 32.3 avo, 45.3 hp, 7.7 def, 0.9 res, 7.5 critavo

Gonzales has less hit and crit, but he doubles more and has more atk. He has less avo and def, but the hp lead helps some, and his defenses are pretty good as is. And he's better at not getting doubled by mercs and such.

19 Lot, supports

Killer Axe: 26.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 96.8 hit, 47.1 crit - - 49.0 avo, 41.8 hp, 13.4 def, 6.4 res, 31.8 critavo

14 Gonzales

Killer Axe: 30.4 atk, 14.9 AS, 86.2 hit, 34.0 crit - - 39.0 avo, 49.8 hp, 8.9 def, 1.1 res, 9.3 critavo

doubling for more damage > hit

He also doesn't get doubled by mercs and stuff

20/2 Lot, supports

Killer Axe: 30.4 atk, 15.3 AS, 104.3 hit, 49.0 crit - - 55.0 avo, 51.4 hp, 17.2 def, 6.7 res, 32.4 critavo

Iron Bow:

20/1 Gonzales, C Echidna, C Treck

Killer Axe: 33.0 atk, 19.9 AS, 104.0 hit, 73.9 crit - - 58.0 avo, 59.2 hp, 14.4 def, 2.4 res, 21.3 critavo

Gonzales >>>> in offense, no longer losing in hit and owning in AS and crit and winning atk, too. And he doesn't lose in defense. He also can cross rivers and stuff.

20/7 Lot

Killer Axe: 31.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 108.0 hit, 49.7 crit - - 59.9 avo, 55.4 hp, 19.2 def, 7.4 res, 33.9 critavo

20/6 Gonzales, B B

Killer Axe: 37.0 atk, 22.4 AS, 111.5 hit, 82.3 crit - - 72.8 avo, 60.0 hp, 17.7 def, 4.7 res, 33.0 critavo

Gonzales is so fast that he may double even nomads, and though it's hard for him to hit twice, he likely OHKs with just one hit anyway. If he doubles something with 7 crit avo and 45 avo, his chance of successfully one-rounding with these stats is 86.6%. The only things with more avoid than that are things that are getting WTA on him. Even myrmidons he has a decent change of one-rounding, as they don't have that much more avoid. Change that avoid to 53 (43+10), and his chance of ORK is...77.2%. SPD + CRIT. He destroys everything. Except high avo bosses. He does need some hit to work with.

Even with these stats, he easily one-rounds wyvern lords that you'll face several chapters later, and wyvern riders are a joke. And his defenses are excellent.

Gonzales is pretty close to Lot early, getting better after several levels, and then he's made of w1n after promotion and on.

[Florete]

I question Gonzales Hit issues early on (IIRC, he sees ~50 displayed at WTA) putting him in High tier. He may be win at promotion since +5 Skl is pretty awesome for helping that, but getting there isn't particularly easy.

[uzy5o]

So Thany is a full tier above Tate now? Doesn't look right to me.

[grandjackal]

What Red Fox said. I could put him at the top of upper mid, but he's not going any higher. Deal?

As for Thany and Tate, I don't see what Tate has going for her, specifically that Thany doesn't.

[Florete]

What Red Fox said. I could put him at the top of upper mid, but he's not going any higher. Deal?

As for Thany and Tate, I don't see what Tate has going for her, specifically that Thany doesn't.

Tate has the exact same shit except better growths and only one decent support partner. And lacking early game. At the very least, they shouldn't be a tier apart, but I'd say Tate > Thany for better mid-lategame.

[CATS]

It sounds to me like people are operating under the assumption that crit is determined before hit, i.e. a unit with 0 hit and 100 crit will always crit? This was disproven a very long time ago IIRC. Or I could just be reading things wrong.

[Reikken]

No, I understand quite well that an attack needs to hit before it can crit.

Tate has several things that she doesn't have going for her that Thany does.

Tate joins at lv 8, so she need to put up with western isles axes for two more levels before she can promote, and even before she has promoted, Thany has D swords so she can use steel swords, while Tate will be stuck with E for a while. And she won't be able to use killing edges yet by the time you can buy them (she probably will have E swords for a bit longer, even), so she'll lag behind again. This lagging in sword levels means that she'll have to use the heavier lances in order to attack with a decent weapon, so she loses more AS, making her less able to double with killer (and it also slows her sword level growth). This higher AS loss is in addition to her lacking Thany's epically high spd--Tate has about 4 less spd--, so her AS is much lower indeed. She won't have a big part of what makes Thany awesome: ability to double superfast enemies like mercs.

Also, she lacks Thany's epic supports. Klein? Zealot? meh @ them. It gives her nice defensive bonuses, though. However, her much lower spd and luck means her avoid is still lower than Thany's even if and when she manages to max both supports, and they don't give her any atk and give very little (5) crit, while Thany gets +4 atk and 17 crit. And Thany also has early game use.

I question Gonzales Hit issues early on (IIRC, he sees ~50 displayed at WTA) putting him in High tier. He may be win at promotion since +5 Skl is pretty awesome for helping that, but getting there isn't particularly easy.

You remember quite incorrectly, then. Looking at the stats I posted, it should be quickly obvious that what you said is not the case. For his 83.9 hit to result in 50 displayed with WTA, the enemy would need to have 43.9 avoid. Lance-wielding foes he sees a couple of chapters later (in ch 13) have little more than 20 avoid. Around 22 or so. So that would be 72 displayed (84.6 real) with WTA. The axe-wielding fighters in chapters closer to his join time he doesn't get WTA on, but they also have less avoid. Like around 17, so that's 67 (78.5%) on them.

For non lance enemies, later on, you'll be seeing more archers and pirates and the like, which have more avoid. However, he's fast enough to double most of them, while Lot is not, and he has enough power to 2HK, so he's doing very well against them.

[Progenitus]

Is this lalum gonzales or elphin gonzales? If it's the former, high tier, easily. The latter... not really sure about that. He may still have a shot at high tier though.

[Reikken]

I'm talking about Lalum route Gonzales.

[grandjackal]

Tate has the exact same shit except better growths and only one decent support partner. And lacking early game. At the very least, they shouldn't be a tier apart, but I'd say Tate > Thany for better mid-lategame.

Thany 12/1

27 HP, 9 Str, 14 Skill, 20 Speed, 11 Luck, 9 Def, 9 Res. Chances are likely at something along the lines of Deick and Lot, netting her something along the lines of 4 ATK, 2 Def, 15 Avoid, 17 crit, 15 hit. 5 con, Sword option

Tate's bases

27 HP, 9 Str, 11 Skill, 14 Speed, 6 Luck, 8 Def, 8 Res

Hmm...Her bases are surprisingly similar, but until Tate herself promotes (with which her leveling speed upon joining, I'd rather milk as much as I can first). However, Thany's got some serious support packaging, a second weapon and a sizeable speed lead. With Tate's con being similar though, it's not as bad. However...It's still bad con, and unlike Thany she neither has the sheer speed to make up for it, nor a second weapon choice. She can use steel and have similar speed to Tate using a slim. So offense is severely in Thany's game. Defensivel, 1 def and res isn't a big deal, but a 38 avoid lead and weapon control is. Along with all the things Thany has that Tate doesn't that you mentioned.

I dunno about you, but I can see an easy tier gap.

Also CATS, no worries, I'm positive that's not what Reikken is talking about. I'm not about to let Gonzo's hit rate go unaccounted for just because he doubles.

EDIT: One post, all this appears first AND I got ninja'd by Reikken. Damn you people!

Edited August 31, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Reikken]

Note that doubling, even if you have 60% real hit, is much better than not doubling but having 84%. Both have an 84% chance of hitting at least once, but the former also has a 36% chance of hitting twice. So I would say that 50% and doubling is about as good.

And the difference in hit between Gonzales and Lot is much smaller than that. When Gonzales has 60% real, Lot has about 76%. Assuming A Thany B Dieck for Lot.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Gonzo to top upper mid then.

[Quasar]

Been somewhat busy with fluid mechanics and whatnot but I managed to play up to 9 to check the leveling. I had a 12 Lance with B Alan and C Roy at the end of Ch 8.

Supports: I only got the C Roy at 8x and getting C with Alan took until the end of Ch 4 but with Javelin use being more popular it got faster. Suppose it's pretty safe to say that fast supports with units having similiar move are great and I for one have been underestimating their growth pace. On another note supports with healers and supports between units having a move difference were ridiculously slow to utilize.

Levels: I was pouring exp only on Lance, Alan, Lot, Rutger, Dieck and Lugh and I still got Lance to only 12. The way I played Lance is way past the point of favoritism in my opinion but w/e. I also tried to level up Thany but she's so shit it's kind of nasty. I had her at 4 by Ch 7. I tried to kill with her, I really did, but her unimpressive hit rates, poor damage and not doubling with anything not SL make it uncool. Care to explain how your Thany is 9 @ 7 Reikken because I don't really see that happening. Thany definitely needed the raise but uhh > Lot?

Anyway. Did I play efficiently? I don't know because the turn counts for efficient play aren't defined. There were things I had forgotten about some of the maps such as reinforcement appearing turns so sometimes I had to pull off emergancy evasive maneuvers such as sacricing Bors meaning that a second playthrough could probably shave turns off too but I'm not sure how low they're supposed to go in any case. With that in mind here's what I got:

1 9

2 9

3 12

4 11

5 14 (scenery route)

6 14

7 14

8 23 (think this could be improved quite a bit)

8x 10

I recorded levels and support levels characters gained along with additional notes in each chapter while playing too but let's leave those for another time.

[grandjackal]

Unimpressive hit ra-were you trying to use nothing but the javelin with her?

[Quasar]

Against non-axe users yes. It's not like the problems end after changing weapon either. 3 Thany did 0-3 damage to Ch 4 Cavs with Iron (can't double) IIRC. Good luck pulling off killing blows with that. She's decent against Mercs and Myrms but they're rare as shit. Mages too I guess. If you say she doesn't have a problem leveling then you're lying. I was literally trying to feed her kills and I failed.

Edit: More details? Sure.

Chapter 2 - more useful for transport due the dangerous archer not to mention the enemies are piling up, making it dangerous for her to attack

Chapter 3 - can attack Soldiers at beginning easily at least.

Chapter 4 - ass Cavaliers and lolnomads keeping her away

Chapter 5 - axemen with crazy power, some ORKO'ing even with HA

Chapter 6 - some easier units here

Chapter 7 - Cavaliers, Archers and Wyverns

Chapter 8 - easier units here

Chapter 8x - you're pretty much required to use Thany for non-combat purposes

Edited September 1, 2009 by Quasar