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Kirsche (Soren) vs Tino (Ilyana)


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#1 Vykan12

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 03:10 PM

Who can cast a bigger fireball?

#2 kirsche

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:40 AM

First off, Ilyanaís some wimpy girl who constantly begs for food. Nagging wimpy girl = fail. Soren? He doesnít care what others think of him, he has the guts to stand up to Skrimir in FE10 by refusing to sit next to him. Iíd like to see Ilyana do that, sheíd probably faint at the sight of Skrimir. Fun stuff aside, letís get down to business...

Soren joins in capter 4, Ilyana joins in chapter 8. What does Soren do in the 4 and a half chapters where Ilyana is busy working for those dastards Daein? Quite a bit. It is said that Sorenís durability becomes a problem in chapter 4, and yes, yes it does. However, not to the point where Soren becomes a burden as it is easy to protect him. This is a map of chapter 4. As you can see, if we position Soren and Rhys in the top-right corner of the map (Or at least near it), the only enemies threatening them are the two closest to them, both of which can be killed by Shinon + Titania or Titania/Shinon + a combination of Gatrie and Ike. Once these enemies have been finished off, it is easy to protect them as the enemies would be killed before they got close. Whilst Soren has not contributed positively, he also hasnít contributed negatively. Thus, he has neutral utility in chapter 4.

In chapter 5 things are very different for Soren and he starts to contribute positively because this is a defence chapter and he can hide behind other units who can chokehole. With this he can finish off weakened enemies and save the unit in front of him doing so. That unit can then attacks a different unit or heal himself. Thus, thereís obvious worth in Soren attacking. Say Soren makes 3 potshots and finishes off 3 enemies as well. Enemies are level ~6 by this point, so that gives Soren 138 exp.

Level 2 Soren with wind: 18 HP, 9 Atk, 7 AS, 19 Avo, 2 Def, 7 Res

1x Soldier lv 8 iron lance: 26 hp, 14 atk, 6 AS, 97 hit, 13 avo, 7 def, 2 res
1x Soldier lv 8 javelin: 26 hp, 13 atk, 3 AS, 76 hit, 8 avo, 6 def, 2 res
1x Archer lv 9 iron bow: 23 hp, 12 atk, 7 AS, 109 hit, 16 avo, 7 def, 3 res
1x Axe Knight lv 7 iron axe: 24 hp, 15 atk, 5 AS, 85 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res

Defensively, heís getting 2RKOíed. But he has 1-2 range, meaning he can only take damage on the enemy phase unless you pit him against a ranged enemy. Protect him on the enemy phase and youíre good to go, and this isnít hard to do. Titania and Oscar can canto around to protect him after doing what they wanted to do, plus there are bridges which can serve as chokepoints. So yeah, protecting him is not a problem and certainly not a negative.

On the offensive side, heís 4HKOing the soldiers, but 2RKOíing the ones he can double. Heís 4RKOing the archers and the weapon knights. This sounds bad, but few ar ORKOing this point. A level 6 Oscar with an iron lance has 14 Atk/7 AS. Thatís 2RKOing the soldiers he doubles (just like Soren) and 4RKOing those he doesnít (just like Soren). A level 6/0 Boyd with an iron axe has 17 Atk/7 AS. Even heís not ORKOing the soldiers he doubles. So 4RKOing is not below average performance at this point. Because of this, Soren getting 3 kills and 5 attacks in this chapter isnít absurd. And since enemies are level ~8 by this point, he nets himself around 167 exp.

Level 4/0 Soren with wind + 2 uses of a def band: 19 HP, 10 Atk, 8 AS, 22 Avo, 3 Def, 8 Res

3x Soldier lv 7 steel lance: 25 hp, 16 atk, 0 AS, 85 hit, 1 avo, 6 def, 2 res
1x Soldier lv 9 steel lance: 26 hp, 17 atk, 1 AS, 88 hit, 4 avo, 7 def, 3 res
2x Archer lv 6 steel bow: 21 hp, 14 atk, 2 AS, 89 hit, 5 avo, 6 def, 1 res
2x Knight lv 10 iron lance: 27 hp, 16 atk, 2 AS, 94 hit, 6 avo, 15 def, 4 res

As you can see here, there are various corridors which are only 2-3 spaces large which can be chokeholed, especially with Titaniaís and Oscarís canto. This still makes it easy to protect Soren.

As you can see, Sorenís doubling a lot more, and is 3RKOing, at worst, on the enemies I presented. How many enemies doesnít he double? 10 enemies. One of those is the boss which noone is doubling save Shinon and Titania. So letís say, that in this 11 turn map, Soren gets 4 kills and 5 attacks. Leaving him a turn of doing absolutely nothing. Enemies are still level 8 ish, so this gets Soren 184 exp, which can easily be rounded off through the use of bexp at the start of the next chapter. I wonít bother with a chapter 8 comparison, as Ilyana joins halfway through it, so letís compare them in chapter 9:

8/0 Soren with forged thunder + 4 str band, ĎCí Ike: 21 Hp, 14 Atk, 11 AS, 36 Avo, 3 Def, 10 Res, 11 Crit
8/0 Ilyana with forged thunder + 1 str band: 21 Hp, 13 Atk, 10 AS, 27 Avo, 3 Def, 11 Res, 10 Crit

Wow, Soren wins every single offensive parameter. And yes, it does matter. Soren can double 5 enemies that Ilyana canít and an extra 5 more which Sorenís Atk lead letís him RKO faster than Ilyana. Thatís 10 enemies which Soren is better against. An existant win for Soren.

Defensively, Sorenís avo lead matters much more than Ilyanaís res lead as not only are mages in a minority, Soren doesnít die from them anyway. Add this to Sorenís existant outgoing bonuses from supports.

Letís skip ahead to chapter 13, say theyíre level 13 at this point. We get something that looks like this, with band usage:

13/0 Soren with forged thunder, ĎCí Ike: 24 HP, 22 Atk, 13 AS, 42 Avo, 4 Def, 13 Res
13/0 Ilyana with forged thunder, ĎCí Mordy: 23 HP, 21 Atk, 11 AS, 31 Avo, 5 Def, 15 Res

Ilyana wins defence, but by a very small margin (1HP + 11 Avo vs 1 Def). Offensively, Soren doubles 8 more enemies than Ilyana does. This is more major than Ilyanaís defensive win. So itís a small, but existant, win for Soren.

Skip ahead to chapter 17.4 and Ilyana and Soren have just promoted. With band usage where appropriate:

20/1 Soren with forged thunder, ĎBí Ike: 31 HP, 29 Atk, 18 AS, 62 Avo, 7 Def, 18 Res, 29 Physic
20/1 Ilyana with forged thunder, ĎBí Mordy, ĎCí Zihark: 30 Hp, 26 Atk, 15 AS, 47 Avo, 9 Def, 20 Res, 26 physic

Ilyanaís def lead is still small (1 HP + 15 avo vs 2 Def), but bigger than before. Still, that durability isnít enougth to make her avilable to be thrown in a group of enemies, so itís unimportant. Sorenís offensive lead, however, is important as heís doubling 14 enemies that Ilyana isnít and he RKOís 7 enemies earlier than Ilyana does. So thatís 21/ 34 enemies Soren is beating Ilyana agains offensively. Thatís definitely more important than Ilyanaís Durability lead.

Fast-forward to endgame, letís say these two are level 16:

20/16 Soren with forged thunder, ĎAí Ike, ĎBí Stefan: 38 Hp, 39 Atk, 24 AS, 90 Avo, 9 Def, 24 Res
20/16 Ilyana with forged thunder, ĎBí Mordy, ĎBí Zihark: 37 HP, 34 Atk, 20 AS, 69 Avo, 13 Def, 30 Res
Ouch, 4 Def is big. But you know what else is big? 90 Avo. Since most beorc units have <120 Hit, they have <40 displayed hit on Soren. Ilyanaís laguz wins only include 1 dragon and the 4 cats. Soren doubles 17 more enemies than Ilyana and his Atk lead allows him to have a HKO lead over Ilyana against an extra 10 enemies. So yeah, once again, Sorenís offensive lead outweighs Ilyanaís defensive lead.

Now, you might question the support bonuses I shwoed you. Well, Soren is one of Sefanís only 2 supports, so itís obvious Soren will get Stefan. Ilyana fails to get an ĎAí support with people because Mordy doesnít like the movement difference and Zihark prefers Water and thunder affinities over Ilyanaís light affinity.

Something i know youíll call me out on is Sorenís ĎAí support with Ike. Ikeís affinity generally means that defensive boosts like Titaniaís is useless to him. Letheís heaven affinity is also useless to him and Reyson/Ranulf/Elincia come too late to be very useful to him. Thus, it is obvious that Soren and Oscar are Ikeís two best supports. The difference between Ike ĎAí Oscar, ĎBí Soren and ĎAí Soren, ĎBí Oscar is +3 Avo. Something very superfluous. Whatís not superfluous is Oscarís + 2 mov difference compared to Sorenís +1 mov difference and that Oscar has other supports which appreciate the ĎAí more. Kieran, for example, who loses 18 avo from having ĎAí Marcia instead of ĎAí Oscar and this might be more considering Marcia prefers the Tanith support over her Kieran support, meaning Kieranís avo loss from Ike having ĎAí Oscar can be as great as 20 avo. Thatís not a minor loss.

As you can see, Soren clearly wins offence for the entirety of the game, whilst Ilyanaís defensive leads are minor positiveís at best. Add in Sorenís existant healing superiority and itís clear that Soren > Ilyana.

Your turn.

#3 Tino

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 08:37 AM

I cannot really be bothered to go over the fun stuff, except Ilyana kind of resembles this loli in a box. Soren can in no way compare to that.

For now, letís first assume Soren has completely neutral utility from chapter four through chapter eight.

Wow, Soren wins every single offensive parameter. And yes, it does matter. Soren can double 5 enemies that Ilyana canít and an extra 5 more which Sorenís Atk lead letís him RKO faster than Ilyana. Thatís 10 enemies which Soren is better against. An existant win for Soren.

Defensively, Sorenís avo lead matters much more than Ilyanaís res lead as not only are mages in a minority, Soren doesnít die from them anyway. Add this to Sorenís existant outgoing bonuses from supports.


Yes, and thatís assuming Soren got four levels with a str band, which I think is highly unlikely, and Sorenís spd lead stems completely from these four levels. However, there are plenty other units who would definitely like some str band usage, such as Oscar, Ike, Rhys, even, et cetera. Soren taking all those levels with a str band from them is obviously a negative. Heís taking up a resource that others couldíve taken in order to even be Ďso much betterí than Ilyana, making things even worse. Soren relies on something others want to be better. Looks like Ilyana can take advantage of that.

What also kind of surprises me is that Ilyana gained only one level with a str band, not two. Care to explain that? Letís just assume both got two str band level ups.

Now, if Soren doesnít have four levels with a str band, he loses one spd, meaning they double the same things. This reduces the amount of enemies Soren is better against to five, one of which is a mage and both fail against anyway, so itís more like four. Oh, and for all those instances where Ilyana doesnít match Sorenís offense, Ilyana only needs +1 atk on her forge and sheís equal to Soren. And Ilyana can afford that, for she hasnít taken up resources that Soren already has. So they have equal offense.

On the defense, you seem to be neglecting Shade throughout your entire post, and thatís actually quite a large part of Ilyanaís durability. 9 avo is nice, but what does it actually do for Soren? Enemies have an average of 91 hit. Soren is facing hit rates of 60% true, Ilyana is facing hit rates of 74% true. While ~3/4 is quite a bit more than a little less than 2/3, there are also other things that need to be factored in. For example, Ike needs to head to the castle. Soren must follow him if he wants to retain this large avoidability lead. This hurts his flexibility a lot, more importantly because you may want him and Ilyana both in the sand because theyíre not affected by the movement penalties. So either itís large inflexibility, or a drop in durability. Both are bad for him. Inflexibility for obvious reasons, and a drop indurability because it means heís facing 72% hit rates, and a 2 percentage points large avoid lead is vastly inferior to shade, which allows Ilyana to take no damage at all, especially because having a 28% chance to avoid is nothing spectacular.

We get something that looks like this, with band usage:

13/0 Soren with forged thunder, ĎCí Ike: 24 HP, 22 Atk, 13 AS, 42 Avo, 4 Def, 13 Res
13/0 Ilyana with forged thunder, ĎCí Mordy: 23 HP, 21 Atk, 11 AS, 31 Avo, 5 Def, 15 Res

Ilyana wins defence, but by a very small margin (1HP + 11 Avo vs 1 Def). Offensively, Soren doubles 8 more enemies than Ilyana does. This is more major than Ilyanaís defensive win. So itís a small, but existant, win for Soren.


ďWith band usageĒ is quite a broad term. Iíve no idea which bands you gave them, nor do I therefore have any idea whether theyíre all justified.

Anyway, Soren may double more enemies than Ilyana, but that can be mended. With a Speedwings.

Ah, I hear you say that thatís not going to happen because of a, b and c, but this Speedwings is actually very justified on Ilyana. Speedwings is an item that boosts a certain statistic, in this case a unitís spd. Since itís an improvement, we look at what improvement is most useful to us. There are few units who really improve from a Speedwings. At this point, we have quite a lot of units already. The majority of them either suffices by using a spd band, has access to the Knight Ward, or doesnít need to boost their spd in any way. The only ones that may really want a Speedwings are Ilyana, and perhaps Mordecai. Mordecai, however, never really puts it to good use, even later in the game. Heíll still be too slow, especially if he uses the Demi Band to stay transformed. This basically just leaves Ilyana. Thereís also no unit that joins in the near future thatíll need a Speedwings. Ulki may be the first one to need one, and he joins in chapter 18. Then the next one is probably Haar (Tauroneo, too, but he doesnít make good use of it at all, plus he has Knight Ward access anyway). So yes, Ilyana getting those Speedwings is perfectly just, and it gives her the same spd as Soren, meaning all Soren has is 1 atk. This is useful against one beorc enemy, and the lv 2 Ravens, of which you probably wonít kill all that many overall.

Then thereís Ilyanaís durability. Enemies average 16-17 atk (itís hovering around 16.5, whether you count mages and/or Norris or not), meaning Ilyana is actually able to take an extra hit in quite a few instances. Then Ilyana has Shade on top of that. Sorry, but that easily gangrapes an 11 avo lead, unless it would mean Soren faced 0-10 hit, which he doesnít. Oh, and Ilyana canít be scratched by mages, Soren can, meaning he could be in danger of dying more easily after a magic attack and a physical attack.

Ilyanaís def lead is still small (1 HP + 15 avo vs 2 Def), but bigger than before. Still, that durability isnít enougth to make her avilable to be thrown in a group of enemies, so itís unimportant. Sorenís offensive lead, however, is important as heís doubling 14 enemies that Ilyana isnít and he RKOís 7 enemies earlier than Ilyana does. So thatís 21/ 34 enemies Soren is beating Ilyana agains offensively. Thatís definitely more important than Ilyanaís Durability lead.


If Ilyana got that Speedwings, which she did, she has only one less spd than Soren. Then, all she needs is 6 levels with a spd band and sheís already up to par with Soren. And if she didnít get that, she has a 40% chance to have 16 spd natural upon promotion. So considering all that, the chance of her having less spd than Soren is very tiny, thus itís fair to assume they still have equal spd. That leaves six enemies (one priest, two halberdiers, two generals, and a mage) that Soren fares better against than Ilyana. Thatís not even a fifth of the enemies.

Then Ilyana has better concrete durability plus Shade against some avoid when weíre looking at defense. 23 atk 2HKOes Soren. This 3HKOes Ilyana. How many enemies have 23+ atk? Only five. Not much, huh? Well, consider that Soren needs only one less hp or one less def to get 2HKOed by 22 atk enemies, and there are quite a few 22 atk enemies. Six, in fact. This means that he gets 2HKOed by 11/28 physical enemies, which is nearly two fifth. In other words, if one of those events (one less hp or one less def) happens, Ilyanaís concrete durability lead is over twice as large as Sorenís offense lead. And what are the odds of at least one of those events happening? A massive 95.35%. So that concrete durability lead is as good as a truth.

Then Shade and avoid cancel eachother out fairly well, considering theyíre both based on random chance very much.

Ouch, 4 Def is big. But you know what else is big? 90 Avo. Since most beorc units have <120 Hit, they have <40 displayed hit on Soren. Ilyanaís laguz wins only include 1 dragon and the 4 cats. Soren doubles 17 more enemies than Ilyana and his Atk lead allows him to have a HKO lead over Ilyana against an extra 10 enemies. So yeah, once again, Sorenís offensive lead outweighs Ilyanaís defensive lead.


Yes, 90 avo is quite a lot. I think itís quite fair to say Soren wins durability by now. Though by a much smaller margin than Ilyana did all the time. Offensively Soren also has a win, but not because he doubles more, because Ilyana with her spd band + Speedwings has the same spd as Soren does.

So, you may have noticed I only countered what you said, but didnít say who was better than who. I decided that, since itís true throughout the entire game, but probably to a lesser extent in the endgame, that Ilyanaís durability lead is larger than Sorenís offense lead. Soren is usually better against a few enemies, while Ilyanaís durability is better against the average enemy or quite a large percentage of all enemies. So itís established that Ilyana is better than Soren throughout the game, when both exist. That was all assuming Soren has neutral utility in those first chapters heís available in.

So for this earlygame part, you basically just gave some data.

ďOh, Soren xRKOes this and gets yRKOed by that and thatís all you need to know, itís not necessary to tell whether heís actually a positive, a negative, or neutral.Ē

That basically sums up your earlygame rant. So hereís my counter: ďSoren can find himself killing things every now and then, there are defend maps where his ranged damage comes in useful, but there are also maps where his durability hurts him and makes him a primary target by enemies. Itís not always possible to wall him in. Overall, itís perfectly fine to say Soren is neutral in the earlygame, meaning heís built up no positive/negative utility yet, which means the wins Ilyana accumulated over Soren over the course of the rest of the game are of a higher value than the wins Soren accumulated over the same course. Thus, Soren is inferior to Ilyana.

Then you had a few things on supports. Ike actually does prefer A Oscar. Ike needs to head towards the seizing tile on quite an amount of maps, which means the support partnerís flexibility gets quite a large cut. Sorenís pitiful movement already doesnít allow him too much flexibility, but an A Ike support (and staying with him) would make things very inefficient. Oscar, with more movement than Ike and Canto, has a much easier time staying near Ike. Also, Kieran doesnít care about losing an x amount of avo, since his concrete durability is great already anyway. The additional avo is merely a niceÖ addition.

Then, if you could give Soren supports like that, Ilyana also couldíve gotten an A support easily. For example, if Mordecai is already being played, itís unlikely youíre going to play Muarim, too, for it would give us two inconsistent fighters, which is inefficient. This means Zihark wouldnít mind an A Ilyana support, for example. Though I agree A Mordecai isnít that great an option. But if Mordecai/Zihark wouldnít be available, thereís still Gatrie, who could be played and given an A support with Ilyana.

Et cetera.

The reason I didnít call you out on supports earlier, though, is because it means Ilyana is better than Soren even with supports skewed horribly in Sorenís advantage. In other words, if the supports would be more valid, Ilyanaís total win would be even larger than it is with Ďwrongí supports assigned to both units.

And then you had something on healing, but thatís just redundant. Oh no, Soren heals five more hp than Ilyana does! Oh no, Ilyana heals 34 hp instead of 39! The worldís gonna end!

So, yeah, I suppose itís fair to say that Ilyana is better than Soren. Thanks for your time.

On a sidenote, I had expected this debate to be much more boring, since theyíre two units with equal movement, the same weapon types, the same level, generally, et cetera. Itís much more fun than I had expected.

#4 kirsche

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 12:22 PM

Yes, and thatís assuming Soren got four levels with a str band, which I think is highly unlikely, and Sorenís spd lead stems completely from these four levels. However, there are plenty other units who would definitely like some str band usage, such as Oscar, Ike, Rhys, even, et cetera. Soren taking all those levels with a str band from them is obviously a negative. Heís taking up a resource that others couldíve taken in order to even be Ďso much betterí than Ilyana, making things even worse. Soren relies on something others want to be better. Looks like Ilyana can take advantage of that.

What also kind of surprises me is that Ilyana gained only one level with a str band, not two. Care to explain that? Letís just assume both got two str band level ups.


Bands are easy to use and easy to train with. If Sorenís nearing a level up, you can have him trade with someone with the strength band, equip it, then have him attack/heal himself/whatever. The times he canít do that? Thatís why he didnít use one every turn. Using bands like this is not a negative. Plus, any bexp he could have used can contribute to said band usage.

She doesnít need it. A level 8 Ilyana goes from 1.5 str to 2 str with the 1 str band usage. Oh and itís not fair to have Ilyana get 2/2 band usage when Soren only gets 2/7. Try again.

This counters youíre next paragraph about what you think Sorenís offensive lead is. Oh and Soren can have +mt to his forge too.

On the defense, you seem to be neglecting Shade throughout your entire post, and thatís actually quite a large part of Ilyanaís durability. 9 avo is nice, but what does it actually do for Soren? Enemies have an average of 91 hit. Soren is facing hit rates of 60% true, Ilyana is facing hit rates of 74% true. While ~3/4 is quite a bit more than a little less than 2/3, there are also other things that need to be factored in. For example, Ike needs to head to the castle. Soren must follow him if he wants to retain this large avoidability lead. This hurts his flexibility a lot, more importantly because you may want him and Ilyana both in the sand because theyíre not affected by the movement penalties. So either itís large inflexibility, or a drop in durability. Both are bad for him. Inflexibility for obvious reasons, and a drop indurability because it means heís facing 72% hit rates, and a 2 percentage points large avoid lead is vastly inferior to shade, which allows Ilyana to take no damage at all, especially because having a 28% chance to avoid is nothing spectacular.


I also ignored adept. Which only futher increases Sorenís offensive lead to help balance this out. Remember, Shade is unreliable Ė sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnít. However, when it doesnít, Ilyana can very well die. This is why an enemy phase for Ilyana/Soren shouldnít happen.

This is only true in the few seize chapters. Aka, chapter 9, chapter 16, chapter 21, chapter 23, and chapters 26 to 28. And in chapters 21-28, Soren can have Shade. Plus, there are more enemies around the seize point anyway, so units generally go to more use there than otehr places.

ďWith band usageĒ is quite a broad term. Iíve no idea which bands you gave them, nor do I therefore have any idea whether theyíre all justified.


I gave Soren an extra 3 HP band usages and I gave Ilyana a use of a magic band and a res band. Not that it matters.

Anyway, Soren may double more enemies than Ilyana, but that can be mended. With a Speedwings.

Ah, I hear you say that thatís not going to happen because of a, b and c, but this Speedwings is actually very justified on Ilyana. Speedwings is an item that boosts a certain statistic, in this case a unitís spd. Since itís an improvement, we look at what improvement is most useful to us. There are few units who really improve from a Speedwings. At this point, we have quite a lot of units already. The majority of them either suffices by using a spd band, has access to the Knight Ward, or doesnít need to boost their spd in any way. The only ones that may really want a Speedwings are Ilyana, and perhaps Mordecai. Mordecai, however, never really puts it to good use, even later in the game. Heíll still be too slow, especially if he uses the Demi Band to stay transformed. This basically just leaves Ilyana. Thereís also no unit that joins in the near future thatíll need a Speedwings. Ulki may be the first one to need one, and he joins in chapter 18. Then the next one is probably Haar (Tauroneo, too, but he doesnít make good use of it at all, plus he has Knight Ward access anyway). So yes, Ilyana getting those Speedwings is perfectly just, and it gives her the same spd as Soren, meaning all Soren has is 1 atk. This is useful against one beorc enemy, and the lv 2 Ravens, of which you probably wonít kill all that many overall.


You know what else? We can also give Soren a speedwing to keep his AS lead. Or we could give him a dracoshield so Ilyana no longer wins defence. Or we could give him a seraph robe. I love how you included such a valuable resource for Ilyana, but not one for Soren. Thatís called favouritism. How about we donít give them any valuable resources like this because they are not the best with them?

See, a level 6 Mordy doubles 13 more enemies in chapter 16 with said speedwing. Thatís an extra 13 units that he can ORKO. Brom/Gatrie would rely on the KW less to double. Heck, if a character is speed screwed theyíd want it too.

Then thereís Ilyanaís durability. Enemies average 16-17 atk (itís hovering around 16.5, whether you count mages and/or Norris or not), meaning Ilyana is actually able to take an extra hit in quite a few instances. Then Ilyana has Shade on top of that. Sorry, but that easily gangrapes an 11 avo lead, unless it would mean Soren faced 0-10 hit, which he doesnít. Oh, and Ilyana canít be scratched by mages, Soren can, meaning he could be in danger of dying more easily after a magic attack and a physical attack.


In order for Ilyana to be 3RKOíed and Soren not 3RKOíed, an enemy has to have 16 Atk. Since the ravens stop attacking you in turn 6, thatís 5 enemies. And if after that, Ilyana gets attacked by a 17 Atk enemy or higher (15 enemies), Ilyana will die. So yeah, that small durability lead just doesnít put Ilyana ahead of Soren.

Lol@Soren dying from mages. If the strongest mage attacks Soren twice, he can still face an attack from the strongest unit on the map and live.

Shade isnít reliable, and can lead to deaths if misused (aka, put Ilyana into the Atk ranges of too many enemies). Whereas Iím using avo to decide whether or not Soren needs healing. Think of it this way: Soren has an 11% more chance of taking 0 damage than Ilyana does. Thatís quite good. Especially as this builds up over time. Take the myrmidon with 100 hit, he has a ~42.5% chance of killing Soren after attacking him twice. That same myrmidon has a ~65.75% chance of dying in two rounds. So Soren has a ~23.25% chance of living against said myrmidon. Donít underestimate what 11 avo can do.

If Ilyana got that Speedwings, which she didnít, she has only one less spd than Soren. Then, all she needs is 6 levels with a spd band and sheís already up to par with Soren. And if she didnít get that, she has a 40% chance to have 16 spd natural upon promotion. So considering all that, the chance of her having less spd than Soren is very tiny, thus itís fair to assume they still have equal spd. That leaves six enemies (one priest, two halberdiers, two generals, and a mage) that Soren fares better against than Ilyana. Thatís not even a fifth of the enemies.


Fixíed, which means they donít have equal speed.

60% chance of Ilyana having 15 spd looks more likely to me anyway.

Then Ilyana has better concrete durability plus Shade against some avoid when weíre looking at defense. 23 atk 2HKOes Soren. This 3HKOes Ilyana. How many enemies have 23+ atk? Only five. Not much, huh? Well, consider that Soren needs only one less hp or one less def to get 2HKOed by 22 atk enemies, and there are quite a few 22 atk enemies. Six, in fact. This means that he gets 2HKOed by 11/28 physical enemies, which is nearly two fifth. In other words, if one of those events (one less hp or one less def) happens, Ilyanaís concrete durability lead is over twice as large as Sorenís offense lead. And what are the odds of at least one of those events happening? A massive 95.35%. So that concrete durability lead is as good as a truth.


Actually, 0 melee enemies have 23 Atk, and enemies with 24 atk 2RKO Ilyana too. So Ilyana doesnít actually have a concrete durability lead. Iíve already talked about shade and avoid too.

What happens if Soren is def/HP blessed? What happens if Ilyana is HP/Def screwed? There are a variety of scenarios which indicate contrary to the averages, but the averages are just that: averages. Sure, Soren may have 30 HP and/or 6 def but averages tell us that he is likely to have 31 HP and 7 Def.

So, you may have noticed I only countered what you said, but didnít say who was better than who. I decided that, since itís true throughout the entire game, but probably to a lesser extent in the endgame, that Ilyanaís durability lead is larger than Sorenís offense lead. Soren is usually better against a few enemies, while Ilyanaís durability is better against the average enemy or quite a large percentage of all enemies. So itís established that Ilyana is better than Soren throughout the game, when both exist. That was all assuming Soren has neutral utility in those first chapters heís available in.


I believe the opposite is true. Especially as you never actually countered this:

that durability isnít enougth to make her avilable to be thrown in a group of enemies, so itís unimportant.


Which is basically saying: ďIlyana may be more durable, but she cannot actually use this durability to her advantage as trying to do so will most likely result in her death.Ē

ďSoren can find himself killing things every now and then, there are defend maps where his ranged damage comes in useful, but there are also maps where his durability hurts him and makes him a primary target by enemies. Itís not always possible to wall him in. Overall, itís perfectly fine to say Soren is neutral in the earlygame, meaning heís built up no positive/negative utility yet


Itís pretty damn easy, as I've shown with the maps I've provided, and whilst he may have bad durability, you can afford an enemy breaking through the front lines and attacking Soren. That is, if Rhys and Shinon arenít nearby, in which case that enemy would attack them because they canít counter (And Shinon has provoke).

Because of his ease of being protected (As shown through the various maps I gave) and his overall decent offensive capabilities, saying Soren is not a positive contribution in the earlygame is silly. In every playthrough, Soren kills/hurts enemies in chapters 5-7. Ilyana never does so. Soren wins.

Then you had a few things on supports. Ike actually does prefer A Oscar. Ike needs to head towards the seizing tile on quite an amount of maps, which means the support partnerís flexibility gets quite a large cut. Sorenís pitiful movement already doesnít allow him too much flexibility, but an A Ike support (and staying with him) would make things very inefficient. Oscar, with more movement than Ike and Canto, has a much easier time staying near Ike. Also, Kieran doesnít care about losing an x amount of avo, since his concrete durability is great already anyway. The additional avo is merely a niceÖ addition.


This only helps counter why Soren shouldnít be supporting Ike instead of Oscar, not why either of them deserve to get ĎAí Ike. Why? Because since both are supporting Ike, both are following him around. Oscar may have canto, but he also has a larger mov difference between the two, cancelling it out. In fact, Oscarís higher mov means that in order for him to get Ikeís bonuses, we have to slow him down. With ĎAí Kieran, he doesnít care about being slowed down and can rush ahead as Kieran gives him plenty of avo.

Ike also has good concrete durability. Oscar also has good concrete durability. Why on earth(see what i did there?) would Oscar choose Ike over Kieran when Kieran needs the bonuses more than Ike (instead of Kieran losing 20 avo, Ike loses 3 avo. More important? The former). Plus, with Soren around, Ike canít get critkilled. Just anotehr reason why ĎAí Soren, ĎBí Oscar > ĎAí Oscar, ĎBí Soren.

Then, if you could give Soren supports like that, Ilyana also couldíve gotten an A support easily. For example, if Mordecai is already being played, itís unlikely youíre going to play Muarim, too, for it would give us two inconsistent fighters, which is inefficient. This means Zihark wouldnít mind an A Ilyana support, for example. Though I agree A Mordecai isnít that great an option. But if Mordecai/Zihark wouldnít be available, thereís still Gatrie, who could be played and given an A support with Ilyana.


Zihark can also support Brom. Water > Light.

Gatrie is kinda ďmehĒ and isnít as likely to be fielded as the others.

And then you had something on healing, but thatís just redundant. Oh no, Soren heals five more hp than Ilyana does! Oh no, Ilyana heals 34 hp instead of 39! The worldís gonna end!


5 HP is half a vulnerary saved. After 4 heals, thatís 20 HP more Soren has healed. It builds up quick.

Soren > Ilyana.

On a sidenote, I had expected this debate to be much more boring, since theyíre two units with equal movement, the same weapon types, the same level, generally, et cetera. Itís much more fun than I had expected.


I find similar units are more fun to debate with as a crushing victory gets boring quickly. With similar units, itís closer and more exciting.

#5 Tino

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:52 AM

Bands are easy to use and easy to train with. If Sorenís nearing a level up, you can have him trade with someone with the strength band, equip it, then have him attack/heal himself/whatever. The times he canít do that? Thatís why he didnít use one every turn. Using bands like this is not a negative. Plus, any bexp he could have used can contribute to said band usage.


Trading is generally inefficient in the early chapters. You have quite the limited time in a few of those chapters.

Chapter 4: 4 turns
Chapter 5: 6 turns
Chapter 6: 9 turns

I didnít include Chapter 7 because weíre likely doing stealth there anyway.

So thatís a total of 19 turns. Chapter 4 requires you to attack all the time and/or to leave Soren in the back, out of enemy range. Unless you want to risk Soren getting killed in a measly two hits, of which there is a 75% chance, roughly. In other words, he wonít really get any band usage there, which leaves him with just fifteen turns. And you want him to attack, heal himself, trade the band to someone, get the band from someone, and that all within fifteen turns? That seems ridiculous to me. If you have to constantly have the other str band user stay near Soren and trade the band to him when Soren nearly levels up, that reduces either Sorenís, the other unitís, or both their flexibility, dependent on what your strategy is. Either way, thereís a loss of efficiency.

As for BEXP, yes, he probably couldíve gained a level with a str band there, no problem.

She doesnít need it. A level 8 Ilyana goes from 1.5 str to 2 str with the 1 str band usage. Oh and itís not fair to have Ilyana get 2/2 band usage when Soren only gets 2/7. Try again.


Please, you know better than this. And then you tell me to Ďtry againí?

Political debate
A: Sir, I am of the opinion we should give all tramps over a million dollars so they can pay taxes
B: But that only costs us more money!
A: Yes, but itís also fair to give the tramps some money, because otherwise the rich people would have way too much in comparison to them.

I mean, what the fuck? Would you also say Soren > Titania because 20/1 Soren > base Titania (I havenít done the comparison, but just assume that comparison holds true)? I hope not, for it just doesnít work like that. Though this is a different scenario, the same concept applies Ė it just doesnít work like that. ďItís not fairĒ doesnít exist in discussions Ė only ďthis is valid/invalidĒ and ďthis is sound/unsoundĒ.

For instance, I could say ďIím a man. All men are French.Ē. The conclusion that follows these premises is that Iím French. Valid, but unsound. Fairness is nowhere to be found.

Now assume the following scenario.

ď1: Hey! Hereís a criminal! Letís kill him!Ē
ď2: Yeah! Kill him!Ē
ď3: How do you know heís a criminal!Ē
ď1: He looks like one!Ē
ď2: Yeah! Kill him!Ē

Apparently, someone only needs to look like a criminal in order to be a criminal. Considering this man looks like a criminal, the conclusion is that heís a criminal? Fair? Fairness has nothing to do with it. But this is valid reasoning, for the conclusion follows the premises.

tl;dr fairness doesnít exist

Oh and Soren can have +mt to his forge too.


That doesnít counter my point at all.

And Ilyana can afford that, for she hasnít taken up resources that Soren already has.

I also ignored adept. Which only futher increases Sorenís offensive lead to help balance this out. Remember, Shade is unreliable Ė sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnít. However, when it doesnít, Ilyana can very well die. This is why an enemy phase for Ilyana/Soren shouldnít happen.


What? Shade is unreliable, but you neglect to mention Adeptís even more fail reliability? A 12% chance to active it in a non-double is quite pathetic, and a ~22.5% chance to active it on a double still isnít very large. I donít know the mechanics of the Shade skill, but I am fairly certain Shade is more reliable than 12-22%, meaning Soren has a slight offence lead, while Ilyana has a defence leadÖ

Oh yeah, but an enemy phase shouldnít happen. Al right. Too bad that doesnít matter jack shit. Better durability is a trait that canít be ignored. Ilyana could advance a little further when Soren canít. Ilyana can kill that one enemy while Soren canít because heís at a large risk of dying afterwards. Et cetera. It can go on like that. Ilyanaís durability lead (and mainly Shade) allows her to do things Soren canít, giving her quite a considerable lead that might even cancel out Sorenís offence lead Ė since sheís able to do a bit more than Soren.

Or let me put it this way: a more reliable skill doesnít matter for durability at all, but a less reliable skill does increase offense quite a bit?

Short answer: no.

This is only true in the few seize chapters. Aka, chapter 9, chapter 16, chapter 21, chapter 23, and chapters 26 to 28.


You do realize that thatís nearly 30% of the chapters Sorenís available in, right? Even if we would count chapter 17 as four separate chapters, it would still be 25% of the time heís around, thus limiting their flexibility in 25% of their time. While that may seem like a pretty low amount, itís actually fairly considerable. To take a much more extreme example, it would also be very significant if a unit would be absolutely useless in 25% of his chapters while heís forced to be played.

Itís definitely significant.

And in chapters 21-28, Soren can have Shade.


Yes, but so can plenty of others. There are other magic users, units with bad durability Ė like Reyson Ė etc. So Soren can have Shade, but thereís competition for it. Ilyana has Shade no matter what.

Plus, there are more enemies around the seize point anyway, so units generally go to more use there than otehr places.


Not necessarily true.

Chapter 9: Plenty of enemies on the beach, where Sorenís full movement could be of use. But if he has to follow Ike, it means Ilyana is going there, being important up there, while Soren has to follow Ikeís inflexible ass.
Chapter 16: Admittedly, itís true here. Though, he may want to go around the seize point area because he may be the one that has to recruit Devdan, while your other units start killing enemies there already. So itís actually not entirely true.
Chapter 21: There are multiple ways to go. Soren mightíve wanted to go after some soldiers and shit, while Ike goes after those fighter/warrior reinforcements at the top of the map. Iím not saying this exact scenario happens all the time, but the point is that Soren may have preferred going one way while Ike would rather go the other.
Chapter 23: Itís true, here.
Chapter 26: Definitely not true. Enemies are coming from all directions, and there are plenty of enemies Soren would love to go after that are not near the seize point.
Chapter 28: True again.

I gave Soren an extra 3 HP band usages and I gave Ilyana a use of a magic band and a res band. Not that it matters.


Excuse me? Why does Soren get a band he can actually make good use of while Ilyana gets two different bands, both of which she doesnít even need? If you want to do it that way, give Ilyana 3 hp band uses as well, or give her 3 str band uses, or give her 3 spd band uses, or even 3 def band uses, but mag/res band uses? What does she need those for? For nothing!

Oh yeah, and for soren it does matter.

Remember this?

A level 8 Ilyana goes from 1.5 str to 2 str with the 1 str band usage

We round values over .5 up. Soren with three more hp band uses thus has 23.55 = 24 hp instead of 23.4 = 23. Or if we count the two hp uses from the str band, that means he has 23.65 = 24 hp instead of 23.5 which is just 23.5, apparently.

You know what else? We can also give Soren a speedwing to keep his AS lead. Or we could give him a dracoshield so Ilyana no longer wins defence. Or we could give him a seraph robe.


Thatís not quite how it works.

Letís say we have unit A. What does this unit need to become good? Or perhaps a better question would be: what does this unit need that others donít, or what does this unit not need that others do?

Assuming unit A is supposed to kill enemies, heíll need to be able to fight properly. Letís say there were two other units on our team, unit B and unit C. B and C are capable of doubling incredibly realiably. They can double at least 99% of the enemies, though itís not unlikely itís even more (in other words, everything). Unit A, however, sometimes struggles to double. Now, if only he could get +2 spd from somewhereÖ Hey! Thereís a Speedwing. Now, there are three choices of whom to give it to. Thereís unit A, who really wants (and possibly even needs) it, and units B and C, who donít need it at all. Now, we could give the Speedwing to either unit B or C, but that would be useless. All we get is overkill, which we donít need. Unit A, however, doesnít do as well without the Speedwing, and is the only unit left to choose from. Wham! Unit A got a resource without hurting any others. Perfect.

The same concept applies here. Ilyana needs it, Soren doesnít. Ilyana can get one, Soren canít. Other items? Other stat boosters are much more wanted. There are plenty units who would like to have +7 hp. Many units want an atk boost. Many units would like their skill activation rates/hit rates to rise, etc. Soren is, overall, incredibly unlikely to get a stat booster.

I love how you included such a valuable resource for Ilyana, but not one for Soren. Thatís called favouritism.


Nay, favouritism is the act of prefential treatment, and I donít recall giving Ilyana any.

See, a level 6 Mordy doubles 13 more enemies in chapter 16 with said speedwing.


So how does that counter him not doubling a lot later on, quite a bit after chapter 16? Prove that he still doubles reliably and you may have a point, but the way it is now, my point still stands (for you didnít couner my point on how a speedwing doesnít help Mordecai for later).

Heck, if a character is speed screwed theyíd want it too.


True, but, and this applies to everything you said about Ilyana possibly not getting a SpeedwingsÖ There are two Speedwings. Three, technically, but Iím not counting the one Bryce gives you. So really, Ilyana can get a Speedwings, while someone else who got spd screwed/relies on the Knight Ward a lot can also still get one. In other words, nobody suffers from Ilyana taking a Speedwings, especially because itís very unlikely that youíre playing so many units that rely a lot on the Knight Ward or that can get spd screwed fairly easily.

In order for Ilyana to be 3RKOíed and Soren not 3RKOíed, an enemy has to have 16 Atk. Since the ravens stop attacking you in turn 6, thatís 5 enemies. And if after that, Ilyana gets attacked by a 17 Atk enemy or higher (15 enemies), Ilyana will die. So yeah, that small durability lead just doesnít put Ilyana ahead of Soren.


Thatís five enemies she has a concrete lead against. And then thereís Shade, which you mentioned something about. Or rather, you mentioned Shade possibly leading to death if misused, and then rambled on about Sorenís chance to avoid attacks building up over time, while Shade is probably more reliable than a 11 percentage point advantage in avoid.

I mean, letís say Shade only had as much as a 20% chance of working. That already would cancel out that avo lead, and even surpasses it quite a bit. And then thereís still the concrete lead she has (no matter how minor it is).

And then consider that itís highly unlikely for Shade to have only a 20% chance of working. From my own experiences, Iíd say that it has at least a 50% chance to work, and probably way more, giving Ilyana quite the defensive lead.

60% chance of Ilyana having 15 spd looks more likely to me anyway.


ÖSo? The possibility still exists. As I said, the chance of her having less spd than Soren is very tiny, thus itís fair to assume they still have equal spd, which was considering all factors (including 6 spd band uses). So either she has 16 natural spd, or 16 spd through six spd band uses. You only focused on natural gains, while thatís not the only factor that needs to be taken into account. This led me to the conclusion that itís incredibly likely that they have equal spd. Considering you didnít counter my entire point, I dare say my point still stands.

What happens if Soren is def/HP blessed? What happens if Ilyana is HP/Def screwed? There are a variety of scenarios which indicate contrary to the averages, but the averages are just that: averages. Sure, Soren may have 30 HP and/or 6 def but averages tell us that he is likely to have 31 HP and 7 Def.


No, averages tell us that 50% of the time the stat will be below that value, and 50% of the time it will be above that value. Not that heís (most) likely to have that value. For example, if we round 0.6 up to 1, Soren has an average of 1 str at lvl 14. However, he is more likely to have 0 str than >0 str (51% chance of 0, 49% chance of over 0). Thus we say that Soren has 0 str? Or 1 str? The average says 1, probability says 0.

If things are really tight, we can look at the probability of things happening and draw conclusions from that, like I concluded that, if Soren would have at least 1 less hp or 1 less def Ė of which there is a ~71% chance, mind you Ė Ilyana would obtain quite the considerable durability lead. Now, for those other scenarios you provided.

  • Soren gets def blessed Ė Soren has a 44% of having <7 def, a 24% chance of having 7 def, and a 32% chance of having >7 def. In other words, heís most likely to get screwed.
  • Soren gets hp blessed Ė Soren has an 48% chance of having <31 hp, an 18% chance of having 31 hp, and a 34% chance of having >31 hp. In other words, heís most likely to get screwed.
  • Ilyana gets def screwed Ė Ilyana has a 35% chance of having <7 def, a 29% chance of having 7 def, and a 36% chance of having >7 def. In other words, Ilyana is most likely to get blessed.
  • Ilyana gets hp screwed Ė Ilyana has a 33% chance of having <30 hp, a 21% chance of having 30 hp, and a 46% chance of having >30 hp. In other words, Ilyana is most likely to get blessed.

What can we conclude from this? Soren is most likely to get screwed when it comes to concrete durability (hp/def), while Ilyana is most likely to get blessed the same department. So those scenarios you providedÖ the chance of them happening all at once is a little over Now say Ilyana only got screwed in def and is average in hp, while Soren got blessed on both parts. The chance of those scenarios occurring is still a minimal 3.8%.

In other words, too unlikely to actually make a case of. Heck, even Soren getting blessed in both stats only has a chance of 10.9% of occurring. What Iím saying is, the ďwhat ifĒ statement of yours doesnít quite apply, for the possibility of your scenarios occurring is incredibly minimal.

Which is basically saying: ďIlyana may be more durable, but she cannot actually use this durability to her advantage as trying to do so will most likely result in her death.Ē


One word: Shade.

But since thatís already been covered earlier, I wonít go over it again.

Itís pretty damn easy, as I've shown with the maps I've provided, and whilst he may have bad durability, you can afford an enemy breaking through the front lines and attacking Soren. That is, if Rhys and Shinon arenít nearby, in which case that enemy would attack them because they canít counter (And Shinon has provoke).

Because of his ease of being protected (As shown through the various maps I gave) and his overall decent offensive capabilities, saying Soren is not a positive contribution in the earlygame is silly. In every playthrough, Soren kills/hurts enemies in chapters 5-7. Ilyana never does so. Soren wins.


What ďvarious mapsĒ? You provided one earlygame map, and thatís it.

Anyway.

What, now Sorenís durability also relies on either Rhys or Shinon being in play and nearby? Please. First Rhys is even more fragile than Soren is, plus his only use is healing, which Soren and Ilyana can do, too, and healing isnít exactly a priority later on anymore, anyway. Shinon justÖ sucks too hard to have at leats a decent chance of being played.

Soren can indeed take a hit. But what if a second enemy gets to him? Thatíll put him in critical health, at least, or may even kill him. What if thereís a third enemy that can get to him? Itís basically his death. Ever thought about that, rather than just that one enemy you think could break through or get to Soren in some way (not to mention ballistae and the like exist)?

Oh yeahÖ

Rolf hurts/kills enemies, too! Thus heís a positive contributor! Thus he should be >>>> someone like Tauroneo, because he doesnít do anything positive for a looooong time!

Get the sarcasm?

supports


Another possibility, which would limit no-oneís flexibility, would be to leave them all completely supportless Ė or rather, not have them limit their flexibility even though they have supported. Itís not like Ike, Oscar and Kieran need supports anyway. So they could just support eachother and then enjoy the bonuses when theyíre in range of eachother. Soren depends a lot on the bonuses Ike gives him, so they need to stick together basically all the time, thus limiting Sorenís flexibility a lot (as I already mentioned earlier).

Zihark can also support Brom. Water > Light.

Gatrie is kinda ďmehĒ and isnít as likely to be fielded as the others.


Fire > Wind, too. However, a 50 atk unit with 58 avo would rather have some more avo from the wind affinity than even more atk from the fire affinity. My point is that you generalize things too much.

As for Brom, all he gives Zihark that Ilyana doesnít is 1 atk at B level. At C, thereís no difference at all. Not to mention Zihark has Adept and a fairly high crit rate to get rid of his opponents Ė he doesnít need +1 atk for that. Though, it first requires Brom to be in played, and with his 5-6 mov and bad movement type (even the fewest terrain slows him down a lot), thatís not very likely (and thatís without mentioning crappy offense Ė he gets way too much credit for his apparently Ďgoodí offense). Not much more likely than Ilyana being played, at least. So Iíd say my supports are still perfectly valid. Besides, if Brom is played, he also might want to support Boyd for more atk (which he really enjoys in case he doesnít double), and then itís between Nephenee and Zihark.

And blablabla

Point being, Ilyana can perfectly get an A support with Zihark, and otherwise itís a B support for a little less avo. Not that big a deal.

5 HP is half a vulnerary saved. After 4 heals, thatís 20 HP more Soren has healed. It builds up quick.


I smile at how you overestimate the value of healing later in the game, but I doubt I need to actually explain that. The vast majority of units is durable enough to not need healing very often. Healing is more of a nice asset for both than an actual trait of them that can make a difference between their performance.

#6 kirsche

kirsche

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:39 PM

Trading is generally inefficient in the early chapters. You have quite the limited time in a few of those chapters.

Chapter 4: 4 turns
Chapter 5: 6 turns
Chapter 6: 9 turns

I didnít include Chapter 7 because weíre likely doing stealth there anyway.

So thatís a total of 19 turns. Chapter 4 requires you to attack all the time and/or to leave Soren in the back, out of enemy range. Unless you want to risk Soren getting killed in a measly two hits, of which there is a 75% chance, roughly. In other words, he wonít really get any band usage there, which leaves him with just fifteen turns. And you want him to attack, heal himself, trade the band to someone, get the band from someone, and that all within fifteen turns? That seems ridiculous to me. If you have to constantly have the other str band user stay near Soren and trade the band to him when Soren nearly levels up, that reduces either Sorenís, the other unitís, or both their flexibility, dependent on what your strategy is. Either way, thereís a loss of efficiency.

As for BEXP, yes, he probably couldíve gained a level with a str band there, no problem.


For one thing, chapter 4 doesnít matter, as I gave Soren a grand total of 0 exp in chapter 4, so trading doesnít matter. In chapter 5, the chapter cannot exceed 6 turns so having someone trade with Soren doesnít necessarily reduce efficiency as the chance that it stops you completing the chapter in over 6 turns is 0%. Not to mention that as itís a defence chapter, weíre likely to have people just blocking chokepoints, so having Soren just run up behind someone, trade the band, equip it, then attack, is not even slowing the team down. Chapter 6 has similar chokepoints and having him only trading now and again when heís nearing a level-up isnít even hard in an open map such as this or chapter 7. Youíre exaggerating the issue, especially with units with canto such as Oscar and Titania. In fact, Iíd question their need to constantly have the str band themselves, making your comparison of them having to hang around Soren false. I mean, theyíre in high/top/Titania tier for a reason: theyíre great units that need very little resources, meaning them losing 1-2 uses of an str band is largely unimportant in the long run. Gatrieís problem is spd, not str. Shinon is lol and unlikely to be used in the long-term anyway. Which just leaves Rhys, who matches Sorenís mobility and durability so having them trade with each other now and again isnít particularly difficult. Oh yeah, and since he attacks at 1-2 range, he often doesnít need to heal himself. So again, your scenario is moot, as is the point it was trying to make.

Chapter 7 is a rout, aka, we have to kill everything. So I fail to see youíre point.

tl;dr fairness doesnít exist


Ignoring the point I made ftw!!11!

Seriously, all that was irrelevant. The fact is that you gave Ilyana a higher pecentage of str band usages than Soren, which is favouritism, ie, an invalid/unsound/unfair thing to do.

To show how stupid making such an irrelevant point is, Iíll show up first hand:

ď3: How do you know heís a criminal!Ē


The exclaimation mark should be replaced with a question mark or at the very least a question mark should be added to the end of the sentance. Making such a gramatical error means that the point that you were trying to make is moot, even though it had very little to do with grammer, amirite?

And Ilyana can afford that, for she hasnít taken up resources that Soren already has.


These resources Ė money and bands Ė are not the same. The latter is easily used and traded around, erasing the negative utility for using it. Money however can only be spent once, meaning that the gold Ilyana takes away is gone forever and cannot be used again (unless you sell the forge, but you still lose money from doing that). Money is a much larger resource than using bands. Not only that, but the % amount of band usages they used is similar: Ilyana used an str band for 50% of the time she levelled up. Soren got an str band for just over 50% of all his level-upís also. However, Soren has also had more time to use the str band so such a lead in str band % is perfectly justifiable. Therefore, the extra gold Ilyana uses up is a negative towards Ilyana compared to Soren, and Soren keeps his doubling lead in any case.

Oh yeah, but an enemy phase shouldnít happen. Al right. Too bad that doesnít matter jack shit. Better durability is a trait that canít be ignored. Ilyana could advance a little further when Soren canít. Ilyana can kill that one enemy while Soren canít because heís at a large risk of dying afterwards. Et cetera. It can go on like that. Ilyanaís durability lead (and mainly Shade) allows her to do things Soren canít, giving her quite a considerable lead that might even cancel out Sorenís offence lead Ė since sheís able to do a bit more than Soren.


No Ilyanaís durability ďleadĒ is shade, not mainly shade. This is the problem: shade should not count as a durability lead with units as frail as this as it can often result in death. Because of this, you should always avoid giving them more than 1 enemy per enemy phase (unless said enemy is a mage). Death chances are never good, and shoudl always be avoided whenever possible.

Or let me put it this way: a more reliable skill doesnít matter for durability at all, but a less reliable skill does increase offense quite a bit?


No. Neither affects gameplay very much as we are always keeping these two out of enemy ranges because of their durability. Shade has a larger requisite to not occuring than Adept does : Death.

You do realize that thatís nearly 30% of the chapters Sorenís available in, right? Even if we would count chapter 17 as four separate chapters, it would still be 25% of the time heís around, thus limiting their flexibility in 25% of their time. While that may seem like a pretty low amount, itís actually fairly considerable. To take a much more extreme example, it would also be very significant if a unit would be absolutely useless in 25% of his chapters while heís forced to be played.

Itís definitely significant.


Untrue, a majority of the enemies are found near the seige point so Soren is usually helping more there than elsewhere and sometimes said ďelsewhereĒ doesnít exist. Take chapter 28, for example, where the main path leads you directly to the seige point, meaning that Soren isnít losing flexibility here either. A similar thing can be said for chapters 16 and 23 as well.

Not to mention that Ike can even move across the beach and around to the seige point. In chapter 9, which I deem the only chapter where Soren actually loses useful from heading straight to the throne room, so again, not much is lost from his support with Ike, only 1-2 turns of only having a 7 avo lead, at best.

Yes, but so can plenty of others. There are other magic users, units with bad durability Ė like Reyson Ė etc. So Soren can have Shade, but thereís competition for it. Ilyana has Shade no matter what.


Reyson alsmot protects himsefl, because after vigoring the untis he refreshes can move around to protect him, kill enemies that threaten him etcetera. Thatís why heís top tier Ė his durabiltiy matters less. And the other magic users are kinda meh/show up later so have less of a claim on it. Soren has the highest claim to shade, so getting it is neutral utility as itís only a negative if heís preventing units who use it better than him from using it.

Chapter 9: Plenty of enemies on the beach, where Sorenís full movement could be of use. But if he has to follow Ike, it means Ilyana is going there, being important up there, while Soren has to follow Ikeís inflexible ass.
Chapter 16: Admittedly, itís true here. Though, he may want to go around the seize point area because he may be the one that has to recruit Devdan, while your other units start killing enemies there already. So itís actually not entirely true.
Chapter 21: There are multiple ways to go. Soren mightíve wanted to go after some soldiers and shit, while Ike goes after those fighter/warrior reinforcements at the top of the map. Iím not saying this exact scenario happens all the time, but the point is that Soren may have preferred going one way while Ike would rather go the other.
Chapter 23: Itís true, here.
Chapter 26: Definitely not true. Enemies are coming from all directions, and there are plenty of enemies Soren would love to go after that are not near the seize point.
Chapter 28: True again.


Chapter 9: More enemies near the seige point, however. These enemies pop up:

2x Myrmidon lv 11 (steel sword)
24 hp, 17 atk, 8 AS, 100 hit, 19 avo, 6 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 3 cev
1x Myrmidon lv 13 (iron sword)
25 hp, 15 atk, 13 AS, 117 hit, 29 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev
1x Myrmidon lv 13 (steel sword)
25 hp, 18 atk, 11 AS, 104 hit, 25 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Soldier lv 11 (javelin)
28 hp, 14 atk, 5 AS, 80 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev
1x Soldier lv 12 (iron lance)
29 hp, 15 atk, 9 AS, 101 hit, 21 avo, 9 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 3 cev

1x Knight lv 13 (steel lance)
30 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 87 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 6 res, 3 crit, 3 cev


As well as kotaff and the ~9 enemies you can vaguely see here: http://www.fireemble.../guia/cap9.htm. So thatís ~50% of the enemies Soren can face by following Ikeís ďInflexible assĒ if we ignore my strategy of having Soren move with Ike along the beach and then down towards the seize point. More if we use my strategy.

Chapter 16: You can recruit Devdan from near the seige point and we can have Mist/Rofl/Sothe/Tormod do it instead. No biggie.

Chapter 21: If we have them take the most inside route possible, they get to the seize point the fastest and face the most enemies along the way.

Chapter 26: This one is actually true, thereís a patrol of wyverns nearby, a group of paladins, a general, a group of sages, and of course, Bertram to deal with. Oh, and some feral ones. The other ways (North and west), have fewer enemies than going straight north-west. This: should help show you.

Excuse me? Why does Soren get a band he can actually make good use of while Ilyana gets two different bands, both of which she doesnít even need? If you want to do it that way, give Ilyana 3 hp band uses as well, or give her 3 str band uses, or give her 3 spd band uses, or even 3 def band uses, but mag/res band uses? What does she need those for? For nothing!


Well, I gave those too her to round up the stats. It could be more if you want or we can give her some suerfluous HP band usages if you really want that. I donít see the point in this discussion really. Which is what I meant by ďNot that it matters.Ē

Thatís not quite how it works.

Letís say we have unit A. What does this unit need to become good? Or perhaps a better question would be: what does this unit need that others donít, or what does this unit not need that others do?

Assuming unit A is supposed to kill enemies, heíll need to be able to fight properly. Letís say there were two other units on our team, unit B and unit C. B and C are capable of doubling incredibly realiably. They can double at least 99% of the enemies, though itís not unlikely itís even more (in other words, everything). Unit A, however, sometimes struggles to double. Now, if only he could get +2 spd from somewhereÖ Hey! Thereís a Speedwing. Now, there are three choices of whom to give it to. Thereís unit A, who really wants (and possibly even needs) it, and units B and C, who donít need it at all. Now, we could give the Speedwing to either unit B or C, but that would be useless. All we get is overkill, which we donít need. Unit A, however, doesnít do as well without the Speedwing, and is the only unit left to choose from. Wham! Unit A got a resource without hurting any others. Perfect.

The same concept applies here. Ilyana needs it, Soren doesnít. Ilyana can get one, Soren canít. Other items? Other stat boosters are much more wanted. There are plenty units who would like to have +7 hp. Many units want an Atk boost. Many units would like their skill activation rates/hit rates to rise, etc. Soren is, overall, incredibly unlikely to get a stat booster.


Units in general are very durable, especially later on. Take a 20/12 Ike with ĎAí Soren and ĎBí Oscar in chapter 26 and some band usages. 46 HP, 112 avo and 20 Def is an awesome combination. Take the 30 Atk tigers with 126 hit; they have the best Atk/hit combo in the chapter excluding the boss. They 5RKO Ike at 4.06, meaning he faces a measly 1.1% chance of death after 5 attacks. And this is the same with most earth affinities (Tanith and Oscar), so thatís 3 units right there who have incredible durability.

Now letís take a few non-earth affinities, Mak and Astrid, for example. Letís say they support each other, Mak supports Haar and Astrid supports Sothe. A 20/10 Makalov with some band usage has 45 HP, 82 avo and 21 Def. He definitely fears those Tigers more than Ike, but having 1-2 range helps on the player phase and his avo could be bigger with KW usage. A 20/16 Astrid with KW usage has 40 HP, 96 avo and 12 Def. She fears the tigers even more than Mak, but fortunately, she can ORKO them with the help of a laguz bow, which she practically has a monopoly over unless weíre fielding lolRofl or lolShinon, meaning she doesnít fret on the player phase and on the enemy phase she can canto away. Basically, these tigers wonít survive long enough to kill her.

A 20/14 Brom with 2 supports gets tinked by these tigers. A 20/12 Gatrie with2 support active also gets tinked. So thatís another 2 incredibly durable units that can be found within our team.

Oh yeah, and this is just looking at Tigers, looking at low hit warriors and low Atk SMís and Snipers will really highlight just how durable units are in this game.

Because of this durability, giving Soren a dracoshield/seraph robe (or both) is actually a smaller negative than Ilyana getting a speedwing. Why? Because there are quite a few units that canít double.

Take Mordy, for instance. In chapter 26, letís say heís level 13. Demi!Mordy with ĎAí Mist, ĎBí Stefan has 16 AS. He doubles 12 more enemies in this chapter alone. Over the course of the game, that figure is higher. Other units that improve are units such as Gatrie and Brom, who need the KW much less if they get a speedwing. Haar becomes better with a speedwing also. A level 17 Haar in chapter 28, for example, doubles a whopping 7 enemies without the speedwing. With it, he doubles 28, a massive improvement.

So yeah, more people want the speedwing than they do the dracoshield/seraph robe. Now you might say that they want the defensive boosters earlier, but this is also true with the speedwing, more so in fact, as doubling is much less consistent earlygame than lategame. Take chapter 6, neither Boyd nor Oscar, two top tier units, are doubling consistently. A level 6 Oscar with his 7 AS with an iron lance misses out on doubling 16 enemies in this chapter, with the speedwing itís reduced to 7 enemies. Considering thereís only 24 enemies on the map, thatís quite a drop percentage wise (66.666%  29.166% or ~37% of the enemies). As for Boyd, a level 5 Boyd with an iron axe doubles 7 more enemies, or ~29% of the map, with the speedwing. So again, the speedwing is indeed a popular resource.

And what does the dracoshield do to Sorenís performance? Well, it gives him a lead of +1 def in the level 13/0 comparison, and erases Ilyanaís def lead in the 20/1 comparison. So overall, this means Sorenís HP and avo leads are just in direct comparison to Ilyanaís shade.

Btw, the Mordy example counters this:

So how does that counter him not doubling a lot later on, quite a bit after chapter 16? Prove that he still doubles reliably and you may have a point, but the way it is now, my point still stands (for you didnít couner my point on how a speedwing doesnít help Mordecai for later).


Nay, favouritism is the act of prefential treatment, and I donít recall giving Ilyana any.


http://dictionary.re...wse/favouritism

ďAn inclination to favour some person or groupĒ <-- thatís what youíre doing with Ilyana as the person/group. If youíre going to give Ilyana valuable resources, at least give Soren some.

Thatís five enemies she has a concrete lead against. And then thereís Shade, which you mentioned something about. Or rather, you mentioned Shade possibly leading to death if misused, and then rambled on about Sorenís chance to avoid attacks building up over time, while Shade is probably more reliable than an 11 percentage point advantage in avoid.

I mean, letís say Shade only had as much as a 20% chance of working. That already would cancel out that avo lead, and even surpasses it quite a bit. And then thereís still the concrete lead she has (no matter how minor it is).

And then consider that itís highly unlikely for Shade to have only a 20% chance of working. From my own experiences, Iíd say that it has at least a 50% chance to work, and probably way more, giving Ilyana quite the defensive lead.


Or 0 if we gave Soren a dracoshield.

No, shade doesnít prevent you unit from dying if they get attacked, avoid does. Overall, Iím giving neither an enemy phase, so itís a moot point anyway. Considering itís about as hard to protect Soren as it is someone like Astrid (whoís easy to protect thanks to canto).

Basically, shade is doing nothing for either of them, whilst Sorenís avo is helping him when they get counter attacked by a 1-2 range weapon user.

ÖSo? The possibility still exists. As I said, the chance of her having less spd than Soren is very tiny, thus itís fair to assume they still have equal spd, which was considering all factors (including 6 spd band uses). So either she has 16 natural spd, or 16 spd through six spd band uses. You only focused on natural gains, while thatís not the only factor that needs to be taken into account. This led me to the conclusion that itís incredibly likely that they have equal spd. Considering you didnít counter my entire point, I dare say my point still stands.


The problem word here is ďtinyĒ when it most certainly isnít ďtinyĒ compared to what the chance is that they donít have equal speed (Which is the %chance of Ilyana getting a speedwing * the %chance Ilyana has 16 AS without the speedwing). The former is incredibly small as weíre not giving Soren any valuable resources and other units want said speedwing. The latter, even with said 6 band usages, only has a ~48.6% chance of occurring. So basically, no, the chance of Ilyana having 16 AS is < the chance Ilyana has 15 AS, and whilst Ilyana has a chance of having 16 AS, Soren also has an existent chance of having 19 AS, so that point is moot.

No, averages tell us that 50% of the time the stat will be below that value, and 50% of the time it will be above that value. Not that heís (most) likely to have that value. For example, if we round 0.6 up to 1, Soren has an average of 1 str at lvl 14. However, he is more likely to have 0 str than >0 str (51% chance of 0, 49% chance of over 0). Thus we say that Soren has 0 str? Or 1 str? The average says 1, probability says 0.


Well, then the average is wrong in this instance, but not in the instances which we are talking about.

Soren gets def blessed Ė Soren has a 44% of having <7 def, a 24% chance of having 7 def, and a 32% chance of having >7 def. In other words, heís most likely to get screwed


Well, actually, according to this: http://reikken.awardspace.com/CoD.php, Soren has a ~55.9% chance of gaining 3 def over 19 levels with a 15% def growth. This is very similar to the chance you displayed of Soren having >6 Def, meaning that he has the bigger chance of having >6 def than having 6 Def. Thus, Soren is most likely to have 7 Def. Huzzah!

Soren gets hp blessed Ė Soren has an 48% chance of having <31 hp, an 18% chance of having 31 hp, and a 34% chance of having >31 hp. In other words, heís most likely to get screwed.


From here it certainly looks like Soren has a greater chance of not being screwed than being screwed. Unless you think 48% > 52%? If so then Iíd question your math skills.

Ilyana gets def screwed Ė Ilyana has a 35% chance of having <7 def, a 29% chance of having 7 def, and a 36% chance of having >7 def. In other words, Ilyana is most likely to get blessed


Actually, the chance of her getting 7 Def > the chance of her getting >7Def. (64% vs 36%).

Ilyana gets hp screwed Ė Ilyana has a 33% chance of having <30 hp, a 21% chance of having 30 hp, and a 46% chance of having >30 hp. In other words, Ilyana is most likely to get blessed.


Again, the chance of her having her displayed average > the chance of her not having her displayed average. For this reason, I displayed these two as having their average stats and treated them as such, as they are likely to have said stats.

This counters the rest of your point about RNG screwage/blessing. Including:

What can we conclude from this? Soren is most likely to get screwed when it comes to concrete durability (hp/def), while Ilyana is most likely to get blessed the same department. So those scenarios you providedÖ the chance of them happening all at once is a little over Now say Ilyana only got screwed in def and is average in hp, while Soren got blessed on both parts. The chance of those scenarios occurring is still a minimal 3.8%.

In other words, too unlikely to actually make a case of. Heck, even Soren getting blessed in both stats only has a chance of 10.9% of occurring. What Iím saying is, the ďwhat ifĒ statement of yours doesnít quite apply, for the possibility of your scenarios occurring is incredibly minimal.


What ďvarious mapsĒ? You provided one earlygame map, and thatís it.


Two, actually. Chapters 4 and 7.

What, now Sorenís durability also relies on either Rhys or Shinon being in play and nearby? Please. First Rhys is even more fragile than Soren is, plus his only use is healing, which Soren and Ilyana can do, too, and healing isnít exactly a priority later on anymore, anyway. Shinon justÖ sucks too hard to have at least a decent chance of being played.


Not reliant on, helped by. If Soren is not chokeholed off (Something that is easy to do in the first place), then he can still survive when Shinon/Rhys are around. And Rhys and Shinon are both forced in the earlygame, which is when Iím talking about so stuff about how they are later on matters not, because theyíre in play and at a time when theyíre very useful (healing is useful earlygame + Shinon he the second best PP offence on the team).

Soren can indeed take a hit. But what if a second enemy gets to him? Thatíll put him in critical health, at least, or may even kill him. What if thereís a third enemy that can get to him? Itís basically his death. Ever thought about that, rather than just that one enemy you think could break through or get to Soren in some way (not to mention ballistae and the like exist)?


The only thing that will get Soren killed by having him get attacked by 2-3 enemies is player stupidity and placing him in said 2-3 enemy ranged or at least not protecting him thanks to chokeholes. And Player stupidity should not be accounted for as this is a debate to see whoís most efficient, and stupidly placing units is not efficient.

Ballistae will prioritize one of our fliers, and siege tomes are no problem. Other than that, I fail to see the problem with long range weapons and Soren existing.

Rolf hurts/kills enemies, too! Thus heís a positive contributor! Thus he should be >>>> someone like Tauroneo, because he doesnít do anything positive for a looooong time!


Yes, because Rofl and Tauroneo are as close as Soren/Ilyana are when they both exist.

Get the sarcasm?


Another possibility, which would limit no-oneís flexibility, would be to leave them all completely supportless Ė or rather, not have them limit their flexibility even though they have supported. Itís not like Ike, Oscar and Kieran need supports anyway. So they could just support eachother and then enjoy the bonuses when theyíre in range of eachother. Soren depends a lot on the bonuses Ike gives him, so they need to stick together basically all the time, thus limiting Sorenís flexibility a lot (as I already mentioned earlier).


Not really, not be a whole lot more than Ilyana supporting Mordy, whom have a massive mov difference, slowing Mordy down or even just the Zihark support.

Fire > Wind, too. However, a 50 atk unit with 58 avo would rather have some more avo from the wind affinity than even more atk from the fire affinity. My point is that you generalize things too much.


So you think Zihark, with his high skill base, growth, cap and a very accurate weapon type (Swords) is having hitting problems? No. Zihark will always prefer +Atk over +Hit. Oh, and Bromís Ziharkís faster support, meaning that heíd take Brom over Ilyana even if both bonuses were shown to be superfluous/not very useful. This counters this bit:

As for Brom, all he gives Zihark that Ilyana doesnít is 1 atk at B level. At C, thereís no difference at all. Not to mention Zihark has Adept and a fairly high crit rate to get rid of his opponents Ė he doesnít need +1 atk for that.


Though, it first requires Brom to be in played, and with his 5-6 mov and bad movement type (even the fewest terrain slows him down a lot), thatís not very likely (and thatís without mentioning crappy offense Ė he gets way too much credit for his apparently Ďgoodí offense). Not much more likely than Ilyana being played, at least.


Crappy offence? Oh no, you have it WAY wrong. Iíll just use the statistics I used in the Brom vs Calill debate in the tier list for ease:

Level 20/5 Brom with a forged steel lance + 9 KW uses, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark: 43 HP, 39 Atk, 16 AS, 49 Avo, 25 Def, 9 Res


Well, that def is insane for a unit at chapter 20. For referance, only 6 non-magical enemies can touch him, and none of them deal more than 10 damage, heck, only 1 deals more than 5 damage, and thatís the boss. And guess what, he canít ORKO a whopping 5 enemies. Which is reduced to 1 if you give him a speedwing. (Not doing your speedwing argument any favours).

Skip ahead to endgame:

20/15 Brom with 17 uses of the KW, forged silver lance, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark: 51 HP, 49 Atk, 21 AS, 61 Avo, 30 Def, 12 Res


Again, that def is hilarious. Only 14 non-dragon or magical enemies can scratch him, and a majority of those deal <10 damage against him. Bryce is the only one with >40 Atk that should be attacking him sans dragons, so yeah, 1 non-dragon or magical enemy deals >10 damage. Awesome. Brom can survive a hit from each of the level 15 dragons and a hit from the level 18 dragon and survive, which is just plain awesome. As for offence, he 2RKOís everything, but few can match that Atk. Take Oscar for example, who canít get to said Atk with str capped, something that happens rarely in the first place. So yeah, itís not as crappy as you might think.

In fact, Brom ranks above Zihark in the current tier list, so if Brom isnít being played, then assuming Zihark in play is rather silly.

Besides, if Brom is played, he also might want to support Boyd for more atk (which he really enjoys in case he doesnít double), and then itís between Nephenee and Zihark.


And why would Brom choose Neph over Zihark? 15 avo at ĎAí >>> 7 Avo + 7 lolhit. Unless you really think Brom has hitting problems, in which case I would probably die laughing.

Point being, Ilyana can perfectly get an A support with Zihark, and otherwise itís a B support for a little less avo. Not that big a deal.


So a ĎBí is fine then? Then wth is the point in this argument as I gave her a B?

I smile at how you overestimate the value of healing later in the game, but I doubt I need to actually explain that. The vast majority of units is durable enough to not need healing very often. Healing is more of a nice asset for both than an actual trait of them that can make a difference between their performance.


Oh? Units generally fear seige tomes, fliers fear ballistae/bows in general. Units in general fear dragons and Tigers too, thanks to their combination of high hit and high Atk. In fact, most units fear sages in general thanks to low res. And even being ~7RKOíed over a 10 turn chapter could create the need to be healed from time to time as being hit 7 times isnít hard. Basically, donít underestimate healing lategame.

Better healing + better offence the whole game round + more availability >>> a small, mostly pointless, durability lead.

Soren >>> Ilyana.




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