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Colonel M (Jill) vs B2BD (Kieran)


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#1 Vykan12

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 03:12 PM

Haar's underage lover vs the macho cavalier.

#2 Colonel M

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 08:05 AM

Well I guess I better get going. Kieran is only available for a grand total of a chapter more than Jill so he isn't pulling huge numbers against her as is. Might as well do a comparison to each other:

Base Kieran: 30 HP | 11 Str | 1 Mag | 10 Skl | 12 Spd | 8 Luck | 10 Def | 1 Res
Iron Axe - 19 Atk, 103 Hit
Hand Axe - 18 Atk, 83 Hit, 10 AS
Steel Axe - 22 Atk, 93 Hit, 8 AS

Base Jill: 24 HP | 11 Str | 0 Mag | 10 Skl | 9 Spd | 6 Luck | 11 Def | 2 Res
Iron Lance - 18 Atk, 106 Hit
Javelin - 17 Atk, 86 Hit
Steel Lance - 21 Atk, 96 Hit, 7 AS

They're a lot closer than you think. I guess it's Kieran's Spd lead which helps pull him an advantage at some points, but he can barely use the Hand Axe without dropping to Jill Spd. Well, let's just look if it matters much in the chapter Jill joins:

C12

1x Raven lv 2 (beak, coin)
28 hp, 16 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit, 26 avo, 10 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

2x Raven lv 4 (beak, arms scroll [d])
30 hp, 18 atk, 15 AS, 115 hit, 31 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

2x Raven lv 5 (beak)
31 hp, 18 atk, 16 AS, 115 hit, 33 avo, 11 def, 9 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

Seeker lv 8 (beak, blue gem [d], demi-band, elixir)
36 hp, 22 atk, 16 AS, 131 hit, 43 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 11 cev

Turn 4 Reinforcements:

1x Raven lv 4 (beak, secret book [d])
30 hp, 17 atk, 15 AS, 114 hit, 30 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 0 cev

Turn 6 Reinforcements:

2x Raven lv 3 (beak, 1 seraph robe [d])
29 hp, 17 atk, 14 AS, 112 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

Turn 8 Reinforcements:

1x Raven lv 3 (beak, coin [d])
29 hp, 17 atk, 14 AS, 112 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

Total enemy count: 6 + 4 reinforcements = 10

Kieran might want to stick to that Iron Axe if he wishes to beat Jill here. Kieran can't use the Hand Axe without falling into that trap. 3 Ravens double him anyway so it's hard to avoid it at some points. When doubled, both are 2-3RKOed. Since Jill is getting doubled might as well use the Steel Lance for her main offense and Javelins for distance fighting. Kieran has to stick with the Iron Axe to mobilize a durability lead, otherwise he has to succomb to Jill's fate to match her power. By the way he needs the Steel Axe to really hurt these things as Jill w/Steel Lance. Steel Lance!Jill can 3RKO these guys while Kieran is 4RKOing even the weakest Raven w/Iron Axe. Flight is a major help for this chapter because of the limited space on the boat. While Kieran does have his horse, it's not being used to its fullest advantage here. I daresay the win would go to Jill here just because of how useful she is with flight and the Steel Lance pulling around the same KO rate as Steel Axe!Kieran. Kieran can only have a lead if he wields the Iron Axe but then he loses out on Atk or tying with Steel Axe.

C13 is a bit different since we're facing humans and Ravens. Let's give Kieran and Jill 2 levels:

Level 14 Kieran: 31.2 HP | 12 Str | 1.3 Mag | 11 Skl | 12.8 Spd | 8.5 Luck | 10.8 Def | 1.6 Res
Iron Axe - 20 Atk, 13 AS
Hand Axe - 19 Atk, 12 AS
Steel Axe - 23 Atk, 10 AS

If you really want to count supports, Kieran gets +7 Avo and +1 Atk.

Level 10 Jill : 25.2 HP | 11.8 Str | 0.6 Mag | 10.9 Skl | 9.9 Spd | 6.5 Luck | 11.7 Def | 2.6 Res
Iron Lance - 19 Atk, 10 AS
Javelin - 18 Atk, 10 AS
Steel Lance - 22 Atk, 9 AS

If you really want to count supports, Jill gets +1 Def.

So at this point Kieran does win combat. Jill at least can hold her own offensively and defensively, but the former gets lost by Kieran. There's still flight, correct? Absolutely, Jill can carry chest keys and start pilfering from the chests before the Ravens show up, a great advantage here. While Kieran can reach them by horse, Jill can technically reach them faster due to being able to cross the water.

Then there's other chapters where Jill's flight is very useful. C14 has the dumbass boss that likes to go in the water, so at some points Jill might be the only unit that can actually fight him at times. C15 Kieran was wishing he wasn't on a horse and Jill is having the time of her life on a Wyvern since the desert doesn't nerf her mobility. She's also one of the best units here since she can carry and drop off Volke with Marcia to speed up the process of getting items or carrying someone such as untransformed Lethe over to Stefan (even transformed over the mountains). Jill has a lot of use in this chapter alone. A lot of C17 maps have swamps all over the place making it easy for Jill to fly over them. So over the course of this time Jill has been a huge positive contribution for many reasons. Let's look at 20/1 Jill vs. 20/3 Kieran. In response to the Knight Ward, it's safe to give Jill Paladin Band level-ups so I won't do mixing and matching with the Wyvern Band, her second option.

Jill - 36.8 HP | 17.8 Str | 4.6 Mag | 17.4 Skl | 17 Spd | 9 Luck | 17.2 Def | 6.6 Res
Steel Axe - 29 Atk
Hand Axe - 25 Atk

Kieran - 39 HP | 18 Str | 4.5 Mag | 17 Skl | 20.5 Spd | 10.5 Luck | 16 Def | 7 Res
Stee; Axe - 29 Atk
Hand Axe - 25 Atk

I didn't overkill it so I put 5 levels. I guess if you really wanted to you could put more in but even that is sufficient:

3x Wyvern Rider lv 14-15 (steel lance)
31 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 95 hit, 21 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

4x Soldier lv 16-18 (steel lance)
34 hp, 21 atk, 9 AS, 98 hit, 22 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev
1x Soldier lv 18 (javelin)
33 hp, 16 atk, 10 AS, 89 hit, 24 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev
1x Halberdier lv 1 (short spear)
35 hp, 20 atk, 10 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Archer lv 19 (steel bow)
29 hp, 20 atk, 14 AS, 107 hit, 33 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 8 crit, 5 cev

1x Fighter lv 20 (steel axe, hand axe, vulnerary)
40 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 92 hit, 29 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 5 crit, 5 cev
1x Warrior lv 1 (steel axe, iron bow)
40 hp, 26 atk, 10 AS, 89 hit, 24 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 5 crit, 4 cev

1x Sage lv 1 (blizzard, wind)
27 hp, 20 atk, 6 AS, 97 hit, 14 avo, 8 def, 13 res, 5 crit, 2 cev
2x Sage lv 1 (bolting, 1 thunder, 1 shade [d])
28 hp, 24 atk, 4 AS, 89 hit, 10 avo, 8 def, 14 res, 10 crit, 2 cev
2x Bishop lv 1 (light, mend)
28 hp, 16 atk, 9 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 5 def, 18 res, 4 crit, 6 cev

1x Knight lv 16 (knight killer [d])
33 hp, 19 atk (26 eff), 0 AS, 91 hit, 3 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 3 cev
1x General lv 1 (short spear, vulnerary)
32 hp, 22 atk, 6 AS, 93 hit, 15 avo, 17 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 cev
1x General lv 1 (laguz lance)
32 hp, 26 atk (38 eff), 2 AS, 98 hit, 7 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

2x Sword Knight lv 19 (steel sword, vulnerary)
34 hp, 21 atk, 14 AS, 98 hit, 33 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

Kayachey lv 8 (tornado [d], elixir)
32 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 137 hit, 47 avo, 10 def, 16 res, 7 crit, 17 cev

Turn 4 Reinforcements:

3x Raven lv 6 (beak, 1 vulnerary, 2 coin [1d])
33 hp, 19 atk, 17 AS, 119 hit, 35 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

Turn 6 Reinforcements:

4x Raven lv 6-8 (beak, 2 coin [1d])
34 hp, 20 atk, 18 AS, 120 hit, 38 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 2 cev

Turn 7 Reinforcements:


2x Lance Knight lv 16-17 (steel lance)
31 hp, 22 atk, 12 AS, 92 hit, 28 avo, 14 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 4 cev

Turn 8 Reinforcements:

1x Axe Knight lv 18 (steel axe, hand axe)
32 hp, 23 atk, 10 AS, 87 hit, 25 avo, 14 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 5 cev
1x Lance Knight lv 20 (steel lance, javelin)
33 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 91 hit, 31 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 6 cev
1x Paladin lv 1 (steel lance, iron bow, vulnerary)
31 hp, 23 atk, 13 AS, 92 hit, 30 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 6 cev

Total enemy count: 23 + 12 reinforcements + Shinon = 36

It only gives him leverage to double a couple more units here, but otherwise they're more or less the same.

Then there's supports so let's go over that. Jill has Lethe, Mist, and Haar. Haar isn't coming for a while so for now we'll just say it's a maybe. A Mist / B Lethe is pretty good spread for her. Now before you spout out "But what about Mordecai?" the difference is negligible: 1 Atk vs. 2 more Avo. By C18 both spreads are possible. As for Kieran... yeah, poor guy. More people appreciate Jill's Thunder affinity than Kieran's Wind affinity. Only real reason Oscar is choosing Kieran is because he matches movement and he would consider the Ike support as his slightly better option since he's also on overkill mode. Well there's Marcia too at least but she'd rather go for A Manith for killer Avoid. If anything Kieran would be in the middle with 2 B supports but it isn't all that bad.

Jill - +1 Atk, +4 Def, +12 Avo
Kieran - +1 Atk, +20 Avo

So slap it onto their stats and you get this:

Jill - 30 Atk, 21 Def, 10.6 Res, 55 Avo
Kieran - 30 Atk, 70 Avo

Jill's Def is killer and the Avo isn't too shabby either. WTA can still knock Wyvern Riders from 95 base Hit all the way down to 30 Hit, or 18.3% True hit. Even under the scenario that she did get hit it's barely going to hurt anyway. Without Full Guard (which she is the best user of) there is that slight annoyance to Wind Magic although the only one who's fairly accurate with it is the boss. So at this point they're about the same. Difference is Avoid vs. Def and boy is the latter shining like a diamond. Former isn't too bad either, but in the event that Jill got hurt it might as well be considered a scratch.

Then to continue on with the major advantages of flight. There's the chapter with Shiharam where she can go over the mountains, the chapter vs. Petrine where she can diddle around the sandbags (or IIRC she can go over the trap holes) and many more things. Flight is an awesome advantage for Jill despite Kieran at least having the horse. Flight can easily speed up chapters and war drops are easy to pull off thanks to the flying. There are many more obstacles, but I'll try not to go in-depth with it.

Jill has flying and a decent durability advantage once she gets brought up a bit. Kieran's only real advantage is doing slightly better than Jill earlygame and at least pulling Avoid numbers later on once supports are built up, and the latter isn't doing it much better than Jill anyway since it's very difficult for her to die as well.

Kieran should just go back to juggling axes because let's face it: there's nothing really stellar that he can do. Jill > Kieran

Edited by Colonel M, 12 August 2009 - 08:27 AM.


#3 Dat Nick

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 09:23 AM

Kieran doesn't die after an axe gets stuck into his head, has defeated endless beasts from the great depths of-, and does not fear his nails being pulled out with tongs or pins being inserted into the soft flesh of his underbelly. Oh, and he can wrestle a bear.

Jill is a whiney emo girl who cries in Mist's chest.

Yeah. You figure it out. /debate

Base Kieran: 30 HP | 11 Str | 1 Mag | 10 Skl | 12 Spd | 8 Luck | 10 Def | 1 Res
Iron Axe - 19 Atk, 103 Hit
Hand Axe - 18 Atk, 83 Hit, 10 AS
Steel Axe - 22 Atk, 93 Hit, 8 AS

Base Jill: 24 HP | 11 Str | 0 Mag | 10 Skl | 9 Spd | 6 Luck | 11 Def | 2 Res
Iron Lance - 18 Atk, 106 Hit
Javelin - 17 Atk, 86 Hit
Steel Lance - 21 Atk, 96 Hit, 7 AS

They're a lot closer than you think.


close? what? Kieran didn't need to gain a single level to totally flatline Jill in every possible parameter: As well as having no bow weakness, which matters for a bit.

Furthermore, it's one and a half chapters as Jill joins midway, and the ravens give pretty good EXP. It's not hard at all to imagine Kieran getting a level and raping Jill even more than he already is.

Only two of the ravens double Kieran, the highest lvl one and the boss. ALL of the ravens double Jill. And no, she is not entitled to the Laguzguard she comes with: If anything Kieran makes better use of it since he only takes one hit from the ravens which in turn makes him far more durable with it than Jill is.

Don't even give me this shit about hit either because there's a gaping 3 hit disparity between them. liek wow

but he can barely use the Hand Axe without dropping to Jill Spd.


Wait, what are you trying to pull? Hand Axe weighs 13 wt. Kieran has 11 str and 12 spd. He has 10 AS with the handaxe. Granted that still gets doubled by 95% of the ravens, but two levels and he is out of that rut. He may not get it up to 11 AS in this chapter, but he doesn't have to.


By the way he needs the Steel Axe to really hurt these things as Jill w/Steel Lance.


Steel Axe - 23 Atk, 10 AS

Steel Lance - 22 Atk, 9 AS

Did you even look at the numbers you posted? If Jill's fine using steel, there's absolutley no reason Kieran cannot use Steel either.

it's not being used to its fullest advantage here.


Disagreed. Canto has several advantages here, such as walling a weaker unit like, say, Soren.

Kieran has to stick with the Iron Axe to mobilize a durability lead, otherwise he has to succomb to Jill's fate to match her power.


See, there you go again contradicting your own numbers. Just like in the example above, Kieran has 1 more ATK and AS than Jill when both are using Steel so if Jill is fine with using Steel I don't see any way in hell Kieran isn't.

I daresay the win would go to Jill here just because of how useful she is with flight


You're hyping Flight a bit: Nobody really cares if you can fly out to where the main action is if you're 2-3RKOd anyway and thus likely will not do it. You don't see anybody talking about how awesome Marcia is in this chapter, do you?

Jill at least can hold her own offensively and defensively, but the former gets lost by Kieran.


Incorrect. Kieran's HP win and getting doubled less>>>1 more def/res. Not to mention no bow weakness.

While Kieran can reach them by horse, Jill can technically reach them faster due to being able to cross the water.


Interestingly, most of the archers are placed very close to the chests. You figure out how this debunks your statement.

C14 has the dumbass boss that likes to go in the water, so at some points Jill might be the only unit that can actually fight him at times.


Did Marcia crawl under a rock and die? Hell, couldn't you still 1-2 range him with Boyd or something if he's not too deep in?

oh hey, speaking of C14: Kieran can use the Laguz Axe in 13 quite well since this is one of those lagooz-heavy chapters. Yeah, Boyd can use it too, but the point is so can Kieran. There's a Laguz Lance dropped by a lance knight mid-chapter but not only will Jill likely not have the rank to use it, lots more people want lances than axes at this point [Brom, Neph, Oscar, Marcia, et cetera. Kieran's only competition is Boyd since Titania is already lol, and offense is Boyd's game so even then Boyd may not want it. And that's ignoring the fact that Kieran would see more use out of the axe for the whole chapter than Jill would see out of it mid-chapter.]

C15 Kieran was wishing he wasn't on a horse and Jill is having the time of her life on a Wyvern since the desert doesn't nerf her mobility.


well, you got me there



It only gives him leverage to double a couple more units here, but otherwise they're more or less the same.


I.e Kieran's the better unit.

Mustard, you know I love ya, but you really gotta stop contradicting the exact same numbers that you post. Jill's 17 AS fails to double archers, the boss, ravens, sword knights, and lance knights. Altogether, that's...8 enemies. That's notable.

What's more, the usual flier weaknesses stand out. Compared to the whopping one guy with Knight killer, 3 guys have effective damage on Jill. And I know I know you're just going to laugh that off, but consider this: One of those weaknesses is a siege tome, Blizzard. Jill takes it HARD if she gets hit by that. The other is the boss with Tornado. I consider both of those far more threatning than one measly knight with 0 AS.

...Oh, and that's ignoring avoid!

let's see here...15 avo disparity between the two. That's quite relevant. 15 displayed on the Wyvern where Jill has 32 displayed. 32 displayed is 20.80 real. 15 displayed is 4.65 true. Even on something neutral like the fighter it's still there: 27 displayed on Kieran, 44 displayed on Jill. 14.85 real vs 39.61 real. It's hard to deny that Kieran's avo lead is very significant. And then he has Sol to boost his durability lead further whereas Jill makes no use of an occult whatsoever so she's out as far as masteries go.


Oh, and look at this:

wyvern

31 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 95 hit, 21 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 3 cev


factoring in WTA, Kieran ORKOs the Wyvern with Marcia support. Jill just misses.



Furthermore, since Jill just promoted, she doesn't have the axe rank to use Hammer: Kieran does, which helps on the armors.

Are you really going to dispute that all of these advantages do not>Flight? Flight doesn't even stand out that much in this particular chapter since it's practically terrain free.




Jill's Def is killer and the Avo isn't too shabby either.


Fine, Jill can tink a few enemies. Kieran's getting ridiculous numbers like getting 8RKOd by the general so I'm really not impressed by those leads since not only does Kieran not die to begin with due to his avo and concrete durability, his HP lead is having an effect on Jill's defense win.

Without Full Guard (which she is the best user of)


Disagreed, one of the pegs want it. They actually have durability problems. Jill is in no way entitled to it.


Former isn't too bad either, but in the event that Jill got hurt it might as well be considered a scratch.


You're acting like it's not a scratch for Kieran either which could not be further from the truth.

and the latter isn't doing it much better than Jill anyway since it's very difficult for her to die as well.


I'd actually value the avo more than the def: If you're not going to die either way, might as well avoid more attacks so you look in better shape and don't need Rhys/Mist to heal you out of paranoria.

Oh, and you totally ignored Sol for Kieran which makes him die even less.

Kieran being better at combat from day one>>>Flight

#4 Colonel M

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:06 PM

[quote]close? what? Kieran didn't need to gain a single level to totally flatline Jill in every possible parameter: As well as having no bow weakness, which matters for a bit.[/quote]
You kind of forgotten that in this game the bonus is only double. It will harm her temporarily.
[quote]Furthermore, it's one and a half chapters as Jill joins midway, and the ravens give pretty good EXP. It's not hard at all to imagine Kieran getting a level and raping Jill even more than he already is.[/quote]
It's true C13 has a fair amount; 13% of the enemies to be exact, but that doesn't mean that she can't suddenly escape from the fiasco. There's also the Full Guard which is recieved in Chapter 16 so she's capable of dodging that bullet later on. Only other unit that can use it is Marcia, so it's not like she's pulling major detriments and costs here (otherwise Marcia would suffer the same penalty). After C13 Archers + Snipers are pretty rare to see. Even in C16 there's only 4 Bow users so it drops dramatically after that.

Kieran is still pretty weak to Horse-effective weapons: Horseslayer, Halberd, and Longsword. Not common, but still a minor point against him.
[quote]Only two of the ravens double Kieran, the highest lvl one and the boss. ALL of the ravens double Jill. And no, she is not entitled to the Laguzguard she comes with: If anything Kieran makes better use of it since he only takes one hit from the ravens which in turn makes him far more durable with it than Jill is.[/quote]
In order for Kieran here to take less damage from the Ravens, he must do one of the following:

1) Attack with the Iron Axe which in turn puts his damage output worse than Jill's.
2) Requires a trade which would require more than one unit (Kieran himself) to pull it off.

Then Kieran is in a sea of other units that can use it. Oscar, Boyd, Ike, and many others can use it. Kieran is certainly not more entitled to it and even Jill doesn't make that bad use of it. I believe it's always rounded down (damage output) so she takes about 4 damage in one round, 6 from others. First one 6RKOes and the second 4RKOes.

[quote]Don't even give me this shit about hit either because there's a gaping 3 hit disparity between them. liek wow[/quote]
Uh... I never did so... why mention it?
[quote]Wait, what are you trying to pull? Hand Axe weighs 13 wt. Kieran has 11 str and 12 spd. He has 10 AS with the handaxe. Granted that still gets doubled by 95% of the ravens, but two levels and he is out of that rut. He may not get it up to 11 AS in this chapter, but he doesn't have to.[/quote]
You've just outlined the point that I was saying. If he wields the Hand Axe he still draws down to Jill's Spd even if she did get two level ups.
[quote]Did you even look at what you posted?[/quote]
Yes, yes I did. In summary form: "If Kieran is to equal the damage output as Jill w/Steel Lance due to her not caring about it, Kieran must also use a Steel Axe and roughly match her durability." In other words in order to tie damage output with Jill offensively Kieran must drop down to having Jill's durability.
[quote]Disagreed. Canto has several advantages here, such as walling a weaker unit like, say, Soren.[/quote]
You forgot that Jill also has Canto so it's a minor point. What I meant was there is a limited amount of space on the ship in the first place. Jill has freedom to go just about anywhere on the map; especially with the Laguzguard (I'm not suggesting Leeroy Jenkins-esque chapter beating, just stating that she has little restriction to movement).
[quote]See, there you go again contradicting your own numbers. Just like in the example above, Kieran has 1 more ATK and AS than Jill when both are using Steel so if Jill is fine with using Steel I don't see any way in hell Kieran isn't.[/quote]
Simple: it kills Kieran's lead of durability. Though in turn his damage output gets worse w/Iron Axe. In other words it's about a tie.
[quote]You're hyping Flight a bit: Nobody really cares if you can fly out to where the main action is if you're 2-3RKOd anyway and thus likely will not do it. You don't see anybody talking about how awesome Marcia is in this chapter, do you?[/quote]
Actually she can be pretty good in this chapter. Flight still has the advantage of being able to pull off a guerilla tactic easier. She could stick on the edge of the boat and get a healing from the whole situation.
[quote]Incorrect. Kieran's HP win and getting doubled less>>>1 more def/res. Not to mention no bow weakness.[/quote]
Too bad Bows aren't in C12 first off and second off Kieran would still drop to ~Jill's level defensively in that chapter if he is to match her in damage output. It's a tie battle-wise.
[quote]Interestingly, most of the archers are placed very close to the chests. You figure out how this debunks your statement.[/quote]
She can still Canto out of the way so it's a minor point to show. The Full Guard is obtained in this chapter anywhow and there are still other strategies (dropping Volke off near the chests is a possibility). If a single enemy is in the way of the bridge Kieran isn't getting there any faster.
[quote]Did Marcia crawl under a rock and die? Hell, couldn't you still 1-2 range him with Boyd or something if he's not too deep in?[/quote]
Uh... no? When I played through this game I've seen him cross to the point where he's about 3 spaces away from land so it was impossible to get someone with 1-2 range to tackle him. It took a combination of Marcia + Jill in order to take him down. No, Marcia did not crawl under a rock and die. It's something that Jill can still accomplish and Kieran cannot.
[quote]oh hey, speaking of C14: Kieran can use the Laguz Axe in 13 quite well since this is one of those lagooz-heavy chapters. Yeah, Boyd can use it too, but the point is so can Kieran. There's a Laguz Lance dropped by a lance knight mid-chapter but not only will Jill likely not have the rank to use it, lots more people want lances than axes at this point [Brom, Neph, Oscar, Marcia, et cetera. Kieran's only competition is Boyd since Titania is already lol, and offense is Boyd's game so even then Boyd may not want it. And that's ignoring the fact that Kieran would see more use out of the axe for the whole chapter than Jill would see out of it mid-chapter.[/quote]
I don't remember this chapter being "laguz heavy". If anything it was C14. C13 had a lot of Bandits and the usual. There's two Tigers which IIRC don't even move in the first place so it's a minor point. You're also stretching this "competition" ordeal because Titania is still decent at this point (her Str isn't as nukish) and at least Jill has the capability of using it. Few problems actually sharing the weapon anyway.
[quote]
I.e Kieran's the better unit.

Mustard, you know I love ya, but you really gotta stop contradicting the exact same numbers that you post. Jill's 17 AS fails to double archers, the boss, ravens, sword knights, and lance knights. Altogether, that's...8 enemies. That's notable.[/quote]
Honestly, it is notable. For now, but we still need to dig deeper into the road. Keep in mind that Kieran can only have a major advantage with AS when he's using more and more of the Knight Ward. While it's okay that he gets some levels, it doesn't mean he's entitled to full use and in realistic scenarios him getting it more often isn't something safe to assume. Some other things: I also kept the level lead on Kieran when IMO that should've been shot down and both promoted around the same time due to Jill being able to reach things easier in C17 and C15's desert. Yes, I will admit that Kieran does have the minor lead on some units with his slightly higher AS. That I'm not trying to pull a contradiction nor blatantly ignoring it in general. However, the enemy's AS will still be fairly low for the rest of the game.

Highest non-Merc / Swordmaster Spd stats are as follows:

C19 - 14
C20 - 15
C21 - 15 (this being a boss)
C22 - 15 (some get higher like the boss and a Thief has 16)
C23 - 18 (Cats)
C24 - 17 (Boss has 19)
C25 - 21 (Hawk though)
C26 - 18

I could keep going, but you get the point: the enemy's AS isn't sky-high. It's enough to offset Jill at times, but it still doesn't mean that she's losing all the time.
[quote]What's more, the usual flier weaknesses stand out. Compared to the whopping one guy with Knight killer, 3 guys have effective damage on Jill. And I know I know you're just going to laugh that off, but consider this: One of those weaknesses is a siege tome, Blizzard. Jill takes it HARD if she gets hit by that. The other is the boss with Tornado. I consider both of those far more threatning than one measly knight with 0 AS.[/quote]
Bow users barely make up 10% of the map in general. Even so, the effective bonus is only x2 to begin with and Jill has more than enough HP | Def to make it barely matter. Furthermore, Jill's got some avoid to cut some of the hit anyway. As for Blizzard, again, the Hit rates are too low and Blizzard has fairly low Mt: 8. Then Jill gets a Def bonus from supports, etc. Yeah, I know, this game is a complete joke.
[quote]...Oh, and that's ignoring avoid!

let's see here...15 avo disparity between the two. That's quite relevant. 15 displayed on the Wyvern where Jill has 32 displayed. 32 displayed is 20.80 real. 15 displayed is 4.65 true. Even on something neutral like the fighter it's still there: 27 displayed on Kieran, 44 displayed on Jill. 14.85 real vs 39.61 real. It's hard to deny that Kieran's avo lead is very significant. And then he has Sol to boost his durability lead further whereas Jill makes no use of an occult whatsoever so she's out as far as masteries go.[/quote]
The Avoid is there, yes, but that doesn't mean Jill is getting WTFraped. She still has the high ass Def stat in the first place so it barely matters. Mastery Skill is true (lol Stun) but that just leaves more room for other skills. For example, C24 Jill can make excellent use of the Saviour skill thanks to flight and relative durability. Wrath isn't bad with her good durability and being able to find instances where she'll take some damage. It's true Kieran has the better mastery skill, but that doesn't mean she's out of options.
[quote]Oh, and look at this:

[quote]
wyvern

31 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 95 hit, 21 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 3 cev[/quote]

factoring in WTA, Kieran ORKOs the Wyvern with Marcia support. Jill just misses.[/quote]
That's... one enemy? K.
[quote]Furthermore, since Jill just promoted, she doesn't have the axe rank to use Hammer: Kieran does, which helps on the armors.[/quote]
Have we also forgotten that there's Heavy Lances too? >_>;
[quote]Are you really going to dispute that all of these advantages do not>Flight? Flight doesn't even stand out that much in this particular chapter since it's practically terrain free.[/quote]
In this chapter, no. In others, yes.
[quote]Fine, Jill can tink a few enemies. Kieran's getting ridiculous numbers like getting 8RKOd by the general so I'm really not impressed by those leads since not only does Kieran not die to begin with due to his avo and concrete durability, his HP lead is having an effect on Jill's defense win.[/quote]
Barely. They both can't die without taking major amounts of high Atk enemies and Jill still can Avoid things with WTA too. For example, a unit with 100 Hit still gets knocked down a bit. Then her HP still isn't that shabby and her Def cushions the hits that do land.
[quote]Without Full Guard (which she is the best user of)

Disagreed, one of the pegs want it. They actually have durability problems. Jill is in no way entitled to it.[/quote]
Doesn't mean she can't use it anyway. She is practically the best user of it because she takes little damage. In terms of not needing it though, it would be more of her advantage (or just sandbagging her of an item that she is an excellent user of).
[quote]You're acting like it's not a scratch for Kieran either which could not be further from the truth.[/quote]
They both don't die. K? Jill just has instances when she does take damage it barely matters with the Def boost.
[quote]I'd actually value the avo more than the def: If you're not going to die either way, might as well avoid more attacks so you look in better shape and don't need Rhys/Mist to heal you out of paranoria.[/quote]
Like it barely matters. You'd have to have sick Hit and Atk in order to actually worry about a healing. Though she doesn't avoid as well as Kieran, she still has the Def so it counterbalances slightly.
[quote[Oh, and you totally ignored Sol for Kieran which makes him die even less.[/quote]
Again, both aren't dying. Great to know once again, but as I'm going to say "like it barely matters".
[quote]Kieran being better at combat from day one>>>Flight
[/quote]
That's what you may think, but Flight is an awesome thing to have. If you don't believe me, I still have one more post to go in-depth with that...

Edited by Colonel M, 23 August 2009 - 09:12 PM.


#5 Dat Nick

Dat Nick

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 04:36 PM

[quote]You kind of forgotten that in this game the bonus is only double. It will harm her temporarily.[/quote]

I didn't forget, but more problems when you already lose in every possible way doesn't help.

[quote]Only other unit that can use it is Marcia, so it's not like she's pulling major detriments and costs here (otherwise Marcia would suffer the same penalty).[/quote]

But Marcia's def sucks, i.e she actually wants it. Either flier effective boost is a problem for Jill which means she is reliant on the Full Guard or if it isn't a problem then assuming she saps it from a unit who HAS a problem with bows is blatant favoritism for Jill: Can we go with one or the other, please?

[quote]After C13 Archers + Snipers are pretty rare to see. [/quote]

We're talking about earlygame so the problem is relevant for now.

[quote]You've just outlined the point that I was saying. If he wields the Hand Axe he still draws down to Jill's Spd even if she did get two level ups.[/quote]

My point against your point was that there is a huge difference between 8 AS and 10 AS: It even matters here because 10 AS doesn't get doubled by ALL of the ravens, just most of them. But the primary reason I attacked that one for being incorrect is because it makes it look like Kieran stays in his getting doubled while weighed down rut a lot longer than he actually is.

[quote]Yes, yes I did. In summary form: "If Kieran is to equal the damage output as Jill w/Steel Lance due to her not caring about it, Kieran must also use a Steel Axe and roughly match her durability." In other words in order to tie damage output with Jill offensively Kieran must drop down to having Jill's durability.[/quote]

Um, okay? Who cares again when Kieran's durability is still better even when both are doubled? If anything this is a point for Kieran because he has an option of not getting doubled in exchange for less damage and can still do slightly more damage than Jill with steel. I have no idea why you want to keep fighting me on this point when it's so blatantly obvious you're wrong.

[quote]1) Attack with the Iron Axe which in turn puts his damage output worse than Jill's.[/quote]

Even when Kieran gets doubled he's still not dying any faster than Jill [6 HP>1 def] so I don't know why you keep going all melodramatic on Kieran "sacrificing his durability win" when both his offense and durability are better than hers even when Kieran DOES whip out steel.

[quote]Then Kieran is in a sea of other units that can use it. Oscar, Boyd, Ike, and many others can use it. Kieran is certainly not more entitled to it and even Jill doesn't make that bad use of it. I believe it's always rounded down (damage output) so she takes about 4 damage in one round, 6 from others. First one 6RKOes and the second 4RKOes.[/quote]

You're missing the point, I never said Kieran was entitled to the laguzguard, I just said Jill wasn't.

[quote]You forgot that Jill also has Canto so it's a minor point.[/quote]

But the point of Canto in this chapter is to wall: Which doesn't work out so well if your durability sucks. And Jill's durability does suck if she doesn't get the laguzguard.

[quote]Too bad Bows aren't in C12 first off and second off Kieran would still drop to ~Jill's level defensively in that chapter if he is to match her in damage output. It's a tie battle-wise.[/quote]

No, but they're in C13.

And for gods sake, stop it with this whole "Kieran doesn't want to sacrifice his durability" shit. For the gillionth time, Kieran is not only more durable than Jill with Steel, he also has more ATK and AS. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever if Steel bones over Kieran but not Jill when her overall parameters are worse, so you should really stop trying to sell it lest you make your argument look worse.

[quote]She could stick on the edge of the boat and get a healing from the whole situation.[/quote]

Kieran can't do the same thing?

[quote]She can still Canto out of the way so it's a minor point to show.[/quote]

If she opens a chest from within flight distance away, she won't have enough spaces left to gtfo out of enemy range.

[quote]Uh... no? When I played through this game I've seen him cross to the point where he's about 3 spaces away from land so it was impossible to get someone with 1-2 range to tackle him. It took a combination of Marcia + Jill in order to take him down. No, Marcia did not crawl under a rock and die. It's something that Jill can still accomplish and Kieran cannot.[/quote]

Then that would be my bad.

[quote]I don't remember this chapter being "laguz heavy". If anything it was C14. C13 had a lot of Bandits and the usual. [/quote]

Um...the laguz heavy chapter in question was 14. The axe is received in C13. That's what I meant.

[quote]You're also stretching this "competition" ordeal because Titania is still decent at this point (her Str isn't as nukish) and at least Jill has the capability of using it.[/quote]

It doesn't change the fact that Kieran's laguz weapon is in far less demand than Jill's. And what? Ti's str not as nukish? 13 str not counting possible supports is pretty good atm. Her str is fine and she can double, why would she need it?

[quote]Keep in mind that Kieran can only have a major advantage with AS when he's using more and more of the Knight Ward.[/quote]

Fine with me since Kieran's AS is still better than Jill's even without assuming a single level with the KW.

[quote]C17 and C15's desert. [/quote]

17's terrain isn't such a penalty and so common that it's a major point against Kieran, at least I don't remember it being as such.

[quote]Bow users barely make up 10% of the map in general.[/quote]

Knightkillers often make up 2% of the map in like 3 chapters, so it's an even smaller problem for Kieran.

[quote]Furthermore, Jill's got some avoid to cut some of the hit anyway. As for Blizzard, again, the Hit rates are too low and Blizzard has fairly low Mt: 8.[/quote]

8's decent when it hits res: The sage has 12 mag so Jill has to eat 28 atk from it and her res stat blows: She's getting 2RKOd easy. As for avo...you're exaggerating. The blizzard guy has 97 hit [Blizzard the WEAPON had 75 hit in case you misunderstood what I said on IM] so hit rates on her are hovering around 50~ displayed; which, when you are getting 2RKOd, is not cool.

[quote]That's... one enemy? K.[/quote]

It's enough to prove that the extra ATK from the Marcia support matters.

[quote]Have we also forgotten that there's Heavy Lances too? >_>;[/quote]

scroll up

there are far more heavy lances than bows, and Kieran has his usual lol avoid against heavy lances [WTA and stuff, also lol heavy lance hit]

[quote]In this chapter, no. In others, yes.[/quote]


What others? I don't ever recall terrain being a major issue in FE9 once, and that's all Jill has since her actual mov is equal to Kieran's mov.

[quote]She is practically the best user of it because she takes little damage. [/quote]

Isn't taking little damage a sign that you don't need the full guard?

[quote]They both don't die. K?[/quote]

k, thanks for conceding that Jill's durability win means almost nothing.

[quote]You'd have to have sick Hit and Atk in order to actually worry about a healing. [/quote]

You're making Jill's durability win look less and less awesome by the second after spending most of your first post hyping it.

[quote]That's what you may think, but Flight is an awesome thing to have.[/quote]

It's not as awesome as having much more consistent AS and a better start in a game that isn't very terrain heavy at all