3434 replies to this topic

[Lord Raven]

I'm ~somewhat~ with Snowy but they pretty much hit an "unranked" tier as paradoxical as it sounds. My idea is to make a "Laguz Royals" tier and kinda gauge from there who's the best one even if they all won't really see any action.

[dondon151]

Ike also has the option of going Aether, which is undoubtedly weaker than Wrath + Resolve, but still moderately effective against Ashnard. There's no way that Ike will not have either of those 2 skill setups.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't have any problem with putting the Laguz Royals on the normal tier list really. Considering characters like Lehran and Athos are on other tier lists no reason to exclude them really. As with most situations like this, characters don't get punished for preventing a better option.

That being said, Naesala doesn't seem very helpful. He's only doing 4 damage a hit to Berserk Ashnard. Tibarn hits for 10, Giffca for 15. Not sure if flight helps reach Ashnard more quickly or not (depends on where you got him the first time I guess). At the moment I'm inclined to say Giffca>Tibarn, maybe putting them between Ulki and Rolf or something. Naesala might go the the bottom of the bottom, he can't hit Berserk Ashnard as hard as base Nasir and even Ena can have skills/BEXP/stat boosters dumped on her to make her damage on Ashnard more significant (plus she can Shove once during C28 or something).

I guess part of the thing about the Laguz Royals is that they depend on the Ike's stats pretty significantly, which could be significantly above his 20/20 average if stat boosters become involved.

[aku chi]

One could easily make a case for Laguz Royals > Ena, but anything above that seems like a stretch to me. Bastian and Lucia can actually contribute meaningfully in C25, so I'd be inclined to give them the nod over even Giffca. Truth be told, I could probably be convinced that Lucia and Bastian are more valuable than Nasir.

even Ena can have skills/BEXP/stat boosters dumped on her to make her damage on Ashnard more significant

Even at level 20. Ena deals ~3.5 damage to Ashnard full-transformed (which probably requires a very valuable Laguz Stone) or ~1.5 damage with the Demi Band. Giving Ena an Energy Drop to boost that damage by 2 is the height of silliness (plus, you could give it to Naesala instead if you like). The only skill that saves Ena's combat is Resolve, which is almost always better to give to Ike instead. Ena is good for nothing but shoving in two chapters.

Edited by aku chi, 05 November 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[Anouleth]

I see very little reason for Ike not to have Resolve. I can see him not having Wrath since after all it does have a lot more availability, but not Resolve: and Resolve is the key ingredient that turns a 12 round into a 2 round task.

[Snowy_One]

Aside from the Dragons (which isn't exactly a good idea, especially if you get Ena), Ike is the only one who can hurt Ashnard in his first form. There isn't much room to try different strategies here. Resolve is only usable for 28 and Final so it would be downright foolish to give it to someone else and there's no way that a skill like Wrath is going to be as effective even over multiple maps as it would be on Ike for killing Ashnard, especially in this game where a lot of characters have trouble just getting that low in HP.

I would say very much otherwise. Wrath is a great skill when used properly, especially on a unit with a natural critical boost (increasing the chance of a critical hit greatly, especially with a crit-boosted weapon), vantage, as well as a few other skills to a degree. On a SM alone, between the +50% crit from Wrath, +15% from natural boost, and + 9% from a forge (not taking SKL into account) they can achieve 72% critical rates, more if a KE or the VK is used by them. That is pretty useful to have. A sage can also get decent critical rates with a boosted tome. Meanwhile, Aether is pretty handy for keeping Ike topped off throughout the game. IMO, Aether >>> Wrath/resolve overall (especially considering you have to either sacrifice a skill to get Resolve or go until 28 with only wrath). Either way, there are justifiable reasons for not using a wrath/resolved Ike, especially when you aren't shooting for a LTC.

And remember, as far as ranking the Laguz Royals goes, how long it takes to kill Ashnard the first time doesn't matter at all since you can't call one until you're already facing berserk Ashnard.

So we're putting them in for the sake of beating one boss a bit faster. Wooo... We were already doing that with Ike Wrath/Resolve. Don't see what impact that has anyways on which laguz king is better.

IMO, It's Giffca > Tibran > Naesala, but I'm gauging that on sheer combat power alone.

[Anouleth]

Meanwhile, Aether is pretty handy for keeping Ike topped off throughout the game.

Nothing wrong with removing Aether in Chapter 28.

IMO, Aether >>> Wrath/resolve overall (especially considering you have to either sacrifice a skill to get Resolve or go until 28 with only wrath).

To be honest, the "sacrifice" is so minor that it barely registers. By that point in the game, you can easily throw away a skill without making a meaningful impact on strategies. Nor is Ike going skill-less practically the entire game that big a sacrifice. I usually find that I have way more people than I do skills to give them, so someone is going to have to go without. Might as well be the guy I plan to staple Resolve to.

So we're putting them in for the sake of beating one boss a bit faster. Wooo... We were already doing that with Ike Wrath/Resolve. Don't see what impact that has anyways on which laguz king is better.

Hmm, well Lehran is already on the FE10 tier list. Maybe it would be better to just slash (not in that way) the Royals and shove them at the bottom.

IMO, It's Giffca > Tibran > Naesala, but I'm gauging that on sheer combat power alone.

What else would we rank them on? Mustache growing ability? Shirtlessness? Coin ownership? I suppose that Giffca has the significant advantage of starting only halfway around the world rather than the whole way around the world, whatever good that does him.

[Red Fox of Fire]

Hmm, well Lehran is already on the FE10 tier list. Maybe it would be better to just slash (not in that way) the Royals and shove them at the bottom.

Even Lehran is guaranteed to be able to do something. Not that I have a problem with putting the Laguz Royals on the list, just that it doesn't mean anything either way.

Edited by Red Fox of Fire, 05 November 2011 - 07:46 PM.

[Lord Raven]

Sephiran is no more guaranteed to do something as the Royals are.

I see very little reason for Ike not to have Resolve. I can see him not having Wrath since after all it does have a lot more availability, but not Resolve: and Resolve is the key ingredient that turns a 12 round into a 2 round task.

Once again, while a Swordmaster is a poor way to use Wrath (since Swordmasters have a bunch of shortcomings, think Ike with a lot less Defense and no Ragnell to salvage them), I am only with Snowy here on the fact that you have assumed an "optimal" playthrough where only Ike is getting Resolve.

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 05 November 2011 - 10:03 PM.

[Red Fox of Fire]

Sephiran is no more guaranteed to do something as the Royals are.

Able to. It's very possible to beat Ashnard before the Royal can reach him, but Lehran can hit an Aura from turn 1.

[Lord Raven]

You still need to trade Sephiran a tome, and the only tome that has any guarantee of being forged is one wielded by Micaiah (and that will probably be some shit like Thani or whatever) because that's the only thing that can hit an Aura.

[Snowy_One]

Nothing wrong with removing Aether in Chapter 28.

A fair enough point. I guess I just have a personal stigma against removing a skill from a character. However, do keep in mind that removing Aether for wrath/vantage means setting aside wrath for several chapters unused for the sole purpose of shaving off some extra turns. That means hurting the units who could use it well for their various reasons simply for that one chapter.

To be honest, the "sacrifice" is so minor that it barely registers. By that point in the game, you can easily throw away a skill without making a meaningful impact on strategies. Nor is Ike going skill-less practically the entire game that big a sacrifice. I usually find that I have way more people than I do skills to give them, so someone is going to have to go without. Might as well be the guy I plan to staple Resolve to.

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

Hmm, well Lehran is already on the FE10 tier list. Maybe it would be better to just slash (not in that way) the Royals and shove them at the bottom.

There are two easy ways to handle it that I can see. Including them outright, or making a separate tier. It is a hard choice either way. If we make them part of the main tier list and they score anywhere above Ena (or maybe, MAYBE Bastion and Lucia), we are invaliding a lot. As it has been pointed out, there is a very real chance that they will end up doing nothing. It doesn't sit right with me to put them above even Ena if their contribution to the game is outright squat. Might as well put Morgan from LoAF on the tier list then as she would contribute as much as the Laguz Royals would in that situation (except possibly serving as a stress-relief for Cyn) while Ena, as horrible and hamfisted as it sounds, at least has the potential to help.

The second option is to include them on a separate 'Laguz Kings' tier list. I am actually leaning towards this one because... well... In order for the Laguz kings to be of any value, I guess it does need to be assumed that Ike isn't using Wrath/Resolve. While the possibility of that happening is real, if Ike does for any reason, it renders them largely useless. Their only value comes from when that scenario doesn't happen (or gets screwed up badly). So basically their value comes from the assumption that Ike isn't at optimal performance. Maybe he got RNG screwed a bit hard, maybe you decided to use Wrath or Resolve elsewhere for whatever reason, maybe he just didn't crit or something (I don't actually know the hard numbers, but doubt Ike can score a 100% crit rate), but either way, something has gone wrong from the 'optimal' style.

What else would we rank them on? Mustache growing ability? Shirtlessness? Coin ownership? I suppose that Giffca has the significant advantage of starting only halfway around the world rather than the whole way around the world, whatever good that does him.

I was thinking their polka-dancing abilities myself.

Anyways, as it has been pointed out, it has been mentioned that Ike may kill Ashnard before they can reach him. So if Tibran and Naesala are more likely to reach him before Giffca, then that technically makes them better. Or maybe they just simply don't chip in enough damage to be worth much, so they are actually all equal with Giffca slightly behind since he's land-bound.

Once again, while a Swordmaster is a poor way to use Wrath (since Swordmasters have a bunch of shortcomings, think Ike with a lot less Defense and no Ragnell to salvage them), I am only with Snowy here on the fact that you have assumed an "optimal" playthrough where only Ike is getting Resolve.

I know what the advantages and flaws of the SM are. I was freaking trapped in Mia vs. Zihark debates for what was probably 5,000 posts on Gamefaqs. They may have less defense, but their skill usage, AVO, and critical bonuses can be very useful when done right. Zihark has some semi-solid avoid, Mia has a skill that can be comboed for greatness and enough magic/+ATT supports to actually use the SS to some degree, Stefan has his level, and Lucia... has... ummm... That 'Princesses gone wild' video to distract enemies with? (Lucia sucks, admittedly).

Sides, it isn't just the SM. Other units can get boosts out of wrath that can be useful depending on the situation that would not be 'sub-optimal'. It seems foolish to assume Ike ALWAYS has it when there are other uses for it.

[Red Fox of Fire]

You still need to trade Sephiran a tome, and the only tome that has any guarantee of being forged is one wielded by Micaiah (and that will probably be some shit like Thani or whatever) because that's the only thing that can hit an Aura.

Sanaki can wield Light magic, too. Arms Scrolls exist to make getting Rexaura blessed not a problem.

[Lord Raven]

I know what the advantages and flaws of the SM are. I was freaking trapped in Mia vs. Zihark debates for what was probably 5,000 posts on Gamefaqs. They may have less defense, but their skill usage, AVO, and critical bonuses can be very useful when done right. Zihark has some semi-solid avoid, Mia has a skill that can be comboed for greatness and enough magic/+ATT supports to actually use the SS to some degree, Stefan has his level, and Lucia... has... ummm... That 'Princesses gone wild' video to distract enemies with? (Lucia sucks, admittedly).

Sides, it isn't just the SM. Other units can get boosts out of wrath that can be useful depending on the situation that would not be 'sub-optimal'. It seems foolish to assume Ike ALWAYS has it when there are other uses for it.

I was referring to the lack of 1-2 range off the strength stat (which has absolutely no bearing on Mia vs Zihark vs Stefan, which btw Stefan wins anyway), but thanks for bringing up the other reasons.

Sanaki can wield Light magic, too. Arms Scrolls exist to make getting Rexaura blessed not a problem.

Doesn't mean the player's going to want to use them on Micaiah. Wrath and Resolve exist to be on anyone you want, too.

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 05 November 2011 - 11:11 PM.

[Red Fox of Fire]

Doesn't mean the player's going to want to use them on Micaiah. Wrath and Resolve exist to be on anyone you want, too.

By that point in the game there should be more than enough money for such a purpose. Remember they are buyable (like 10 of them) in 4-E-1.

Even if it's not 100% guaranteed that Lehran will be able to attack, it's still much more likely than a Laguz Royal in this game attacking. Lehran also comes with the Ashera staff, anyway, so he can at least do some healing.

[Snowy_One]

I was referring to the lack of 1-2 range off the strength stat (which has absolutely no bearing on Mia vs Zihark vs Stefan, which btw Stefan wins anyway), but thanks for bringing up the other reasons.

IMO, Mia > Zihark > Stefan, but my reasons for this are based off of a different series of values for their traits (valuing Mia's Vantage and magic potential more than Zihark's AVO, especially since I dislike using Muarim, and Stefan's chance to be crit). Not looking for a debate or advise, just sayin...

[Aethereal]

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

Um. It is possible to know. What can we do with Wrath that we cannot do otherwise? Any bosses can we kill a turn earlier, units in the way we can clear out more reliably? Anything?

This isn't a sarcastic comment, I don't know the ins and outs of FE9, but I would like to see a response on the discussion of what Wrath could hypothetically give you on other units outside of Ike. I have a feeling that Ike getting Wrath is probably the best bet, but it could be otherwise. And I also think it's more relevant/important than other stuff being discussed. =X

[Anouleth]

Sephiran is no more guaranteed to do something as the Royals are.

Once again, while a Swordmaster is a poor way to use Wrath (since Swordmasters have a bunch of shortcomings, think Ike with a lot less Defense and no Ragnell to salvage them), I am only with Snowy here on the fact that you have assumed an "optimal" playthrough where only Ike is getting Resolve.

Well, tell me then, who are you suggesting we give Resolve to? Because I don't see any character that gives 1/10th as much benefit as Ike does. It's one thing to have an open mind when a resource has a decent alternative destination. It's quite another to refuse to assume that we use a resource for basically the only useful thing we can do.

That is impossible to know. Even from the perspective of a LTC tier, there will be units who will become more capable by using Wrath (Swordsmasters and sages) or are durable enough to constantly use its effect without fear of death and having it contribute in other ways (a paladin using wrath and a 1-2 range weapon for better ranged killing power and such).

And as I have said I don't care about Wrath. It would be nice, but it's not a big deal. What matters is Resolve.

Plus, how is it impossible to know? List of valuable skills that are always collected:
-Adept
-Wrath
-Four Occults
-Savior
-Smite
That's eight skills. But one Occult doesn't appear until the same time that Resolve does, and another is carried by Stefan so we might not get it, and it's very possible to miss the Adept scroll as well, and Smite usually goes on a non-combatant. So between 4 and 6. So it's perfectly likely that we can be using all our skills and Ike still won't have one.

So in other words:
1. It's not a big deal if we don't put a skill on Ike
2. It's not a big deal if we do put a skill on Ike and remove it later
2. It's not a big deal if we put Resolve on Ike since seriously who else is going to use it?

[aku chi]

Um. It is possible to know. What can we do with Wrath that we cannot do otherwise? Any bosses can we kill a turn earlier, units in the way we can clear out more reliably? Anything?

This isn't a sarcastic comment, I don't know the ins and outs of FE9, but I would like to see a response on the discussion of what Wrath could hypothetically give you on other units outside of Ike. I have a feeling that Ike getting Wrath is probably the best bet, but it could be otherwise. And I also think it's more relevant/important than other stuff being discussed. =X

Giving Boyd or Largo Wrath and Vantage can make them sufficiently durable to drop at the top of the trail in C25. Largo, in particular, has 100% crit in Wrath range with a Killer Axe, so he'll take 0 damage from 1-range enemies (Boyd is likely to have 85-90% crit in this scenario). With a +crit Hand Axe forge, Largo is looking at a ~80-85% chance to crit-blick at 1-2 range while in Wrath range. Boyd has a less impressive 65-70% chance (but Boyd has more concrete durability). If Jill and Haar aren't recruited (because we early-cleared C11 or C12), dropping a tough footsoldier at the top might be the only way to 2-turn C25. With Wrath and Vantage, Boyd and Largo are the best candidates for this task (Nephenee with Vantage is close behind). A Marcia with Wrath and Vantage might also have some value here. Her lower Atk means that she won't kill everything with a (Killer Lance or Javelin forge) crit, but she can crit-kill most foes and can ORKO all foes with a crit and regular attack.

Wrath might also make it easier to defeat Ena in C21. But we can use Resolve Tauroneo to remove the drama of a Wrath-crit hitting. Chapter 20 also features a boss too tough to 2HKO, so using Wrath to get a crit could be helpful. But using a Sage to siege-bomb for the extra damage works just as well. Chapters 23, 26, and 27 have tough bosses that need to be killed (so a crit from Wrath would be helpful), but it generally isn't too tough to bring another unit in range to finish the bosses off without losing a turn.

And as I have said I don't care about Wrath. It would be nice, but it's not a big deal. What matters is Resolve.

Agreed. Resolve is the key skill to speed up Endgame. Wrath is just a potential bonus.

List of valuable skills that are always collected:
-Adept
-Wrath
-Four Occults
-Savior
-Smite

Vantage is also a valuable skill. Especially in conjunction with Wrath, Adept, or Guard.

[Lord Raven]

Well, tell me then, who are you suggesting we give Resolve to? Because I don't see any character that gives 1/10th as much benefit as Ike does. It's one thing to have an open mind when a resource has a decent alternative destination. It's quite another to refuse to assume that we use a resource for basically the only useful thing we can do.

Ena/Nasir and there's also the chance that we haven't even built up Ike considering if he weren't a Lord he wouldn't be that great a character. And once again you are contradicting your previous stance, since you are once again assuming the absolute optimum. Just because he's the best doesn't mean he's the one getting it.

Even if it's not 100% guaranteed that Lehran will be able to attack, it's still much more likely than a Laguz Royal in this game attacking. Lehran also comes with the Ashera staff, anyway, so he can at least do some healing.

*shrug* it's not even 100% guaranteed he'll be recruited (this is before we consider what he does) yet he's still ranked. Same with the three royals in this game, since they're not 100% guaranteed to be recruited either, and just because they're not as likely to be recruited doesn't mean they shouldn't be ranked at all. In tier lists we tend to judge as if the character has been recruited and used, which has been the general stance for as long as *I* have been on SF (so nearly 3 years). Granted, they'll be ranked pretty low, but they should still be ranked.