3434 replies to this topic

[Olwen]

or we could just scoot marcia and jill up to top tier and call it a day

If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day.

Anyway, I never said that was the only change I wanted. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Edited by Aeine, 08 August 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[aku chi]

or we could just scoot marcia and jill up to top tier and call it a day

Or somebody could actually make an argument, first.

[dondon151]

If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day.

uhhh this is rather uncalled for, but not only that; i have no idea how this is insulting to me because i don't collect FE4 figurines

Anyway, I never said that was the only change I wanted. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

no, but it's the one everyone cares about, and it's the one the most people would agree to

[-Cynthia-]

I think Marcia and Jill moving up a tier is reasonable. Oscar and Kieran don't compare favorably with Titania IMO, I'm not sure their minor combat leads in later chapters make much of a difference.

[Snowy_One]

I'm not really an active member of the tiering community anymore, but in the past, if you wanted to make a new list, you were free to, but people may choose to discuss the old one in it's stead depending on their thoughts on the deviations you've made, or something to that effect.

You can feel free to try, but my past experience tells me that you'll get little more than idle interests, sneering remarks from the users of the older list, and maybe one or two people fully interested in the list. MAYBE.

[aku chi]

I think Marcia and Jill moving up a tier is reasonable. Oscar and Kieran don't compare favorably with Titania IMO, I'm not sure their minor combat leads in later chapters make much of a difference.

True, Oscar and Kieran don't compare favorably with Titania, but neither do Marcia or Jill. I still believe Oscar > Marcia and Jill, so I clearly disagree with this change. Perhaps I ought to craft my long-delayed Oscar > Jill argument.

[Anouleth]

I think it's more reasonable to move Titania into the same tier as the other units.

[Lord Raven]

On the topic of Titania, do people support me making a new tier list? This is a little outdated for my tastes.

no, make your arguments or present a tier list in your thread with a lot of backup

If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day.

That makes absolutely no sense

I feel like Marcia and Jill should be in the same spot because they are just way too close to split up. They really do complement one another, but the fact is that only one gets the Boots at a time.

[Progenitus]

I'm not really an active member of the tiering community anymore, but in the past, if you wanted to make a new list, you were free to, but people may choose to discuss the old one in it's stead depending on their thoughts on the deviations you've made, or something to that effect.

if you're not part of the SF niche and you try to make a separate tier topic, the regulars will run in and troll it to the ground

[Lord Raven]

Smash, I do have respect for you, but I don't think it'll end well for anyone if you go and accuse us of trolling. I'll PM you about some questions I have for you, but I don't think that's for this topic.

[Olwen]

True, Oscar and Kieran don't compare favorably with Titania, but neither do Marcia or Jill. I still believe Oscar > Marcia and Jill, so I clearly disagree with this change. Perhaps I ought to craft my long-delayed Oscar > Jill argument.

How on earth is Oscar > Marcia/Jill? Oscar by himself can't cut any turns other than one or two exceptions. Marcia/Jill, on the other hand,

You can argue that giving Marcia/Jill exp has a "cost," but it doesn't really because it's the best way to clear chapters quickly. People argue that giving all of your resources to Levin!Arthur in FE4 is the most efficient thing to do because he's going to save the most turns in the long run. Why doesn't the same apply to Marcia/Jill?

Super Marcia/Jill is easily the best unit in the game, and not giving her a lot of exp when she comes is beyond stupid if you want to save turns. Titania at most saves a dozen turns; how can she compete with the dozens Marcia/Jill save, and much less Oscar?

Chapter 11: You need Marcia here to get a 3 turn unless you want to train up 2 Paladins, lol.
Chapter 12: Marcia is needed for a 2-turn, unless you want to get Jill.
Chapter 15: Self-explanatory, desert chapter, etc.
Chapter 17-2 and 4: Absolutely necessary in both these chapters to cut turns as well, since she can bypass the swamp at the middle of the path to the arrive path.
Chapter 19: The only way to reach this boss in 1-turn is with Marcia/Jill.
Chapter 20: Extremely important here to get a quick path to Shiharam.
Chapter 21: Again, extremely important here to cut turns because the alternate path to the boss is a much longer one without flight.
Chapter 23: Self-explanatory, due to the pitfalls and walls in this chapter only fliers can bypass.
Chapter 25: Mounted units can't even be used here.
Chapter 28: Incredibly important here, too, because fliers have a much shorter path to the boss area.
Endgame: Fliers can bypass the walls and etc. mounted units can't.

I honestly doubt the validity of people who say absurd things like Oscar > Marcia/Jill. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Even Titania > Marcia/Jill I can understand, but not Oscar.

That makes absolutely no sense

It's an inside joke, smartypants.

Edited by Aeine, 09 August 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Anouleth]

You can argue that giving Marcia/Jill exp has a "cost," but it doesn't really because it's the best way to clear chapters quickly.

But it still has a cost. Just because it's a great deal, doesn't make it free. Somehow I have a mental image of you walking past shops, and seeing items on sale, so you decide to buy all of them because they "don't really have a cost".

People argue that giving all of your resources to Levin!Arthur in FE4 is the most efficient thing to do because he's going to save the most turns in the long run. Why doesn't the same apply to Marcia/Jill?

But nobody argues that those resources don't come with an opportunity cost. That Pursuit Ring isn't superglued to Arthur's hand, you can give it to other people.

Super Marcia/Jill is easily the best unit in the game, and not giving her a lot of exp when she comes is beyond stupid if you want to save turns. Titania at most saves a dozen turns; how can she compete with the dozens Marcia/Jill save, and much less Oscar?

Because the turns that Marcia saves are often heavily contingent on the presence of other characters, or can be replicated by other characters. Since no character is assumed to be in play (or assumed not to be in play), she can therefore only take partial credit for them. Titania's turn savings are not contingent on anyone and cannot be replicated by other characters.

Chapter 11: You need Marcia here to get a 3 turn unless you want to train up 2 Paladins, lol.
Chapter 12: Marcia is needed for a 2-turn, unless you want to get Jill.
Chapter 15: Self-explanatory, desert chapter, etc.
Chapter 17-2 and 4: Absolutely necessary in both these chapters to cut turns as well, since she can bypass the swamp at the middle of the path to the arrive path.

Isn't Oscar apparently also completely necessary... Well, I guess there's always Makarov.

Chapter 19: The only way to reach this boss in 1-turn is with Marcia/Jill.

Er, or Tanith. I don't see any reason why Tanith can't do the same thing as Marcia/Jill in this chapter. And I imagine that you would also have to use quite a lot of other characters. It's not like Marcia/Jill save those turns singlehandedly.

I honestly doubt the validity of people who say absurd things like Oscar > Marcia/Jill. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Even Titania > Marcia/Jill I can understand, but not Oscar.

I agree with this.

[Olwen]

But it still has a cost. Just because it's a great deal, doesn't make it free. Somehow I have a mental image of you walking past shops, and seeing items on sale, so you decide to buy all of them because they "don't really have a cost".

By "don't really have a cost," I don't literally mean it has no cost--I just mean that it's by far the best deal one can make in order to play efficiently. And I put emphasis on "by far." Giving craploads of bexp to Oscar, Titania or Kieran etc. can't even do half of what Marcia/Jill can.

But nobody argues that those resources don't come with an opportunity cost. That Pursuit Ring isn't superglued to Arthur's hand, you can give it to other people.

Not as simple as you think; the Pursuit Ring costs a whooping 40000 gold. When you have characters trying to buy the Elite Ring in the Arena, you'll find that they can't spare money for the Pursuit Ring.

Besides, who else would need the Pursuit Ring anyway? Arthur is going to use it constantly to speed through maps. So it kinda is superglued to Arthur's hand, though not literally but practically.

Because the turns that Marcia saves are often heavily contingent on the presence of other characters, or can be replicated by other characters. Since no character is assumed to be in play (or assumed not to be in play), she can therefore only take partial credit for them. Titania's turn savings are not contingent on anyone and cannot be replicated by other characters.

Marcia/Jill's turn savings can't be replicated by anyone else in a playthrough, because she's the one who is most likely to be getting a large bexp dump and the Boots. Unless I don't understand your point..?

Bolded part is just plain false. In my girls only LTC playthrough on HM, which basically consisted of a Titania solo, was around 12 turns greater than my normal LTC playthrough from Chapter 1 to 8. Again, I'm not sure if I understand your point fully, so I may be wrong.

Er, or Tanith. I don't see any reason why Tanith can't do the same thing as Marcia/Jill in this chapter. And I imagine that you would also have to use quite a lot of other characters. It's not like Marcia/Jill save those turns singlehandedly.

Her strength is too low to ORKO the boss even with a Spear.

Titania doesn't save turns singlehandedly either. I don't know where you get the idea that she does.

Edited by Aeine, 09 August 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Hawk King]

I agree with Marcia and Jill being above Titania. In my current playthrough, I am 1 turn better than Aeine's at Chapter 12, and Titania has only reached LV 5. I could completely drop her from the team and not suffer at all.

How can she be the absolute best character (who is in her own tier), if she is completely expendable after Chapter 11??


Oscar > Marcia and Jill is idiotic. How can you even try to argue this?

[-Cynthia-]

Bolded part is just plain false. In my girls only LTC playthrough on HM, which basically consisted of a Titania solo, was around 12 turns greater than my normal LTC playthrough from Chapter 1 to 8. Again, I'm not sure if I understand your point fully, so I may be wrong.

That would just show that the non-Titania characters go have some effect on the earlygame. The reason for Titania being in the top spot is that Titania /and only Titania/ can save these turns. Marcia can potentially save more turns, but this can be replicated by Jill and Tanith once she shows up. There are multiple characters with flight utility...but only one Titania.

Marcia is higher than Jill mainly because of her Chapter 12? (the ravens one) contributions. It's an important chapter for fliers and Jill shows up about halfway through and doesn't KO ravens too well.

[Olwen]

That would just show that the non-Titania characters go have some effect on the earlygame. The reason for Titania being in the top spot is that Titania /and only Titania/ can save these turns. Marcia can potentially save more turns, but this can be replicated by Jill and Tanith once she shows up. There are multiple characters with flight utility...but only one Titania.

Marcia is higher than Jill mainly because of her Chapter 12? (the ravens one) contributions. It's an important chapter for fliers and Jill shows up about halfway through and doesn't KO ravens too well.

On the flip side, you have a unit who becomes completely superfluous after earlygame, whereas Marcia/Jill not only cut more turns overall than she does earlygame, they also stay useful throughout the entire game.

I think it's quite clear which one is more important.

And please don't mention Tanith. She doesn't have the stats to compete with Marcia/Jill (not having enough strength to kill Homasa in one round, for example). Jill, for example, has 5 strength and axes over her at level 10 promoted.

[Lord Raven]

I don't see how Oscar>Jill and Marcia is idiotic, that's the way it was before I started to argue the reverse.

Marcia is higher than Jill mainly because of her Chapter 12? (the ravens one) contributions. It's an important chapter for fliers and Jill shows up about halfway through and doesn't KO ravens too well.

Jill sucks against magic and Jill is not doubling Petrine, muarim, or bertram iirc

Going to add onto this point; only one of them receives resources at a time and both of them are super units of they're given the resource dump. The cost of Marcia/Jill are the other being a super unit... Instead them being a super unit by themselves. This is hardly something to punish and is nitpicky even by my standards.

It's an inside joke, smartypants.

Emphasis on inside right... You being the only one on the forum who is in on it. At least, that's my impression

Edited by Lord Raven, 09 August 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Anouleth]

By "don't really have a cost," I don't literally mean it has no cost--I just mean that it's by far the best deal one can make in order to play efficiently. And I put emphasis on "by far." Giving craploads of bexp to Oscar, Titania or Kieran etc. can't even do half of what Marcia/Jill can.

Okay then.

Marcia/Jill's turn savings can't be replicated by anyone else in a playthrough, because she's the one who is most likely to be getting a large bexp dump and the Boots. Unless I don't understand your point..?

Except that in your very post, you are implying that Marcia and Jill do the same thing! They replicate each other's turn count savings.

And we can hardly give both of them the Boots. Only one of Marcia/Jill can be the most likely to take the Boots. Which one? I mean, you're willing to poo-poo any suboptimal decision that we dare to suppose for any given resource ever, even if it's something as pathetically small as training Titania instead of the virtually identical Oscar. Why is it that you seem to think that Titania is queen EXP hog because she competes with Oscar, but you're unwilling to tell us which is the EXP hog out of Marcia and Jill? I don't have nearly as much experience as you do with LTC, so I'll take your word for it, whichever one you pick. But you have to pick one. Both cannot be optimal. Even if it's a turncount saving of 1 or 2 turns, well, that's all Oscar has over Titania, which is apparently enough for her to be "useless".

Bolded part is just plain false. In my girls only LTC playthrough on HM, which basically consisted of a Titania solo, was around 12 turns greater than my normal LTC playthrough from Chapter 1 to 8. Again, I'm not sure if I understand your point fully, so I may be wrong.

There's a difference between me saying that Titania saves turns singlehandedly and saying she can solo the entire earlygame with no turncount loss. No matter what combination of strategies, or resource distribution, or characters you choose to use in earlygame, Titania will save turns on that. But if you choose to train up Jill and give her the boots, then Marcia's turn count savings evaporate.

Her strength is too low to ORKO the boss even with a Spear.

I only realised that later :(

Titania doesn't save turns singlehandedly either. I don't know where you get the idea that she does.

No matter WHAT team, or strategy, or resource distribution you pick for earlygame, Titania will deliver a turncount saving upon that. That is to say, that her turn savings are contingent on nothing. Not getting BEXP/Boots that other, equally good units could use (since apparently Marcia and Jill are equally good because you're unwilling to say which is better). Not the deployment of a laundry list of specific Smite-equipped Laguz and various Paladins and roided up Valkyries.

[aku chi]

Oscar vs. Jill

Assumptions:
Jill's optimal resource bundle is ~1000 Bexp sometime before C15, the C13 Speedwings if her Speed is lagging, and the C12 Seraph Robe if she needs the extra durability, and perhaps the C12 Arms Scroll for A Axes. Jill will use the Full Guard when there are Ballistae that threaten her. Jill might also be the best candidate for the Boots. Then again, she might not (especially if Marcia is recruited and trained). Jill's contributions will be considered with and without the Boots.

Nature of the Argument:
Deployment: When considering Jill's contributions, I will consider playthroughs where Marcia is and is not used. When considering Oscar's contributions, I will consider all four possibilities of using and not using Marcia and Jill. Otherwise, nearly optimal deployment will be assumed, but only as a simplifying factor. If ever Jill or Oscar have a comparative advantage when the assumption of optimal deployment is lifted, I will try to point it out. If I have been less than vigilant in my efforts here, I encourage others to step in.

Resources: Measuring opportunity costs is a challenging feat. I will work around the need to do so by crafting an argument in Jill's favor. I will assume that Jill receives her optimal resource bundle. I will, with minor substitutions mentioned later, assume that Oscar receives Jill's optimal resource bundle. These assumptions most favor Jill, because she receives her optimal resource bundle, whereas Oscar receives resources that may or may not be optimal for him. See this post (and those that follow it) for an explanation of the validity and rigor of this technique.

So, Oscar will receive ~1000 Bexp sometime before C15 (same as Jill). Oscar will receive the Speedwings, Seraph Robe, and Arms Scroll if Jill does. Because Oscar will have a commanding level lead when Jill is recruited and get the same amount of Bexp, Oscar will retain a level lead over Jill throughout the entire game. Oscar and Jill's Atk will be very similar, Oscar will have a slight concrete durability advantage, and Oscar will have a noticeable Spd advantage. In this argument, Boots Jill will be compared with Boots Oscar. Jill will only have an advantage over Oscar if she is superior with the same resources.

As for the exceptions: whereas Jill will equip the Full Guard when she needs the extra durability, Oscar will equip the Knight Ward (which is, if anything, less valuable during a map). I will at least mention cool things Oscar can do if he's promoted early in chapters 10 and 11, but they shouldn't hold too much influence with this argument, because I don't want to get into the quagmire of evaluating the present value of 1000 Bexp from C15 in C10. Just know that promoting Oscar early is a potentially rewarding option.

Chapter Contributions:
Chapter 1: Oscar is necessary for a 2-turn clear, where he can rescue Ike and also visit for the Seraph Robe. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 2: Oscar's combat is valuable here. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 5: Oscar can get Cexp himself, facilitate other units' acquisition of Cexp (thanks to his good durability), and help get some dropped treasures. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 6: Oscar is clearly the second most valuable unit here, rescue/take/dropping Ike, damaging enemies, and contributing to the boss kill. Oscar is necessary for a 4-turn clear. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 7: Another big chapter for Oscar. Oscar's high-mov and combat make him necessary for 4-turn (and, I believe, 5-turn) clears of this chapter. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 8: Same as chapter 5; Oscar can help get Karuma's Red Gem. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 9: If Marcia is not being recruited, Oscar is necessary for a 4-turn clear. He rescues and drops Ike, contributes with combat, and helps kill Kotaff. If Marcia is recruited, Oscar is necessary for the ambitious 6-turn clear (advancing Ike to the end). Oscar is similarly helpful in conventional 7-turn clears where he can advance Ike and help kill Kotaff. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 10: A promoted Oscar is necessary for the fastest stealth clears (to rescue Mordecai). A promoted Oscar is also super-helpful in brute-force 3-turn clears. An unpromoted Oscar is still useful to recruit Kieran/Brom or Nephenee. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 11: If Oscar is promoted, he can make major contributions to an efficient clear of this chapter (regardless whether Marcia was recruited). He can help blast through the congested middle, contribute to killing Makoya, and/or killing the Knight on the Arrive square. If Oscar, isn't promoted, he can still help get loot like the Dracoshield. Jill has no contributions.
Chapter 12: In a Marcia-rout, Oscar can help kill the two Ravens that approach the ship. In an 8-turn clear, Oscar can make many (admittedly unspectacular) combat contributions. If Marcia isn't orchestrating a 5-turn clear, Jill can make some very minor combat contributions after she's recruited.
Chapter 13: De facto rout: Oscar and Jill can both help by killing enemies. If we have not administered Bexp, Oscar's combat leads are significant and he is more valuable. If we have administered a large Bexp dump, Jill is more valuable due to her ability to fly around obstacles.
Chapter 14: Both Oscar and Jill can light the way (and clear the way) to the boss. If promoted, both can ORKO Gashilama on turn 3 (Jill needs a help with her Speed). Oscar, thanks to his ability to be smited by Mordecai, can ORKO Gashilama on turn 2.
Chapter 15: Oscar has no contributions. Jill can engage in a moderately reliable solo clear, or she can combo with Marcia for a very reliable 2-turn clear, or she can facilitate the recruitment of Stefan.
Chapter 16: Oscar and Jill can both make big (nearly identical) contributions. They have high mov, great combat, and can even ferry Mordecai. Oscar has some minor advantages here: he can be smited by untransformed Mordecai and he has an easier time getting the Speed to double Kimaarsi.
Chapter 17-1: Both Oscar an Jill can clear out the enemies in the southwest or southeast. Jill can also accomplish the more challenging feat of clearing out the northern enemies on turn 2. Boots Oscar can do the same with a bunch of shoves, but Jill can get there easier.
Chapter 17-2: Both Oscar and Jill can help transport Mordecai in the ridiculous 2-turn clear. If Marcia isn't recruited, Jill can 3-turn clear the chapter.
Chapter 17-3: Self improvement.
Chapter 17-4: Boots Jill can kill Oliver on turn 1 with a smite. Without the Boots, Jill can do the same on turn 2. Oscar is pretty worthless here if Marcia or Jill are trained. Otherwise, Oscar can lead the ground forces in a slower clear.
Chapter 18: Oscar and Jill are almost equally proficient in this chapter. They have great movement, great combat, and can ferry Reyson. Jill has a slight advantage here because she can chase down Ravens at the end over untraversable terrain.
Chapter 19: Jill can't really get the Spd to ORKO Homasa here, which is unfortunate. Jill and Oscar can contribute in a 2 or 3-turn clear of the chapter.
Chapter 20: Jill can be a major player in a 2-turn clear of this chapter (either crippling Shiharam or arriving). Oscar can (help) get Smite or Rescue (but so can Jill).
Chapter 21: Jill can contribute substantially to this clear, thanks to her ability to cut across the moat. Oscar can contribute to getting the Energy Drop or some other treasure.
Chapter 22: Jill and Oscar alike can kill the Bolting Sage in the 1-turn siege clear.
Chapter 23: Jill and Oscar can contribute substantially in this chapter with their high mov and great combat. Jill is more valuable, thanks to her ability to bypass and cover potholes, but her advantage shouldn't be overstated; it's possible to clear this chapter in 4 turns with no fliers.
Chapter 24: With the Boots and a Reyson vigor, Oscar and Jill can single-handedly execute a 3-turn clear. Jill has more flexibility thanks to her ability to fly over the river, but Oscar has the durability (with the Knight Ward) and offense to break through the bridge. Without the Boots, they can both pull off a 4-turn clear. If some other unit is arriving, both Oscar and Jill can visit the northern house for Saviour.
Chapter 25: Jill can be the best unit in this chapter, flying up to the north and cleaning house with great offense and durability. The best Oscar can do is clear out some enemies in the south.
Chapter 26: Oscar and Jill are equally capable at leading the charge to Bertram; another great performance by both units.
Chapter 27: Oscar and Jill are, again, almost identically useful. They can (help) kill Hafedd or Arrive.
Chapter 28: A 2-turn HM clear has yet to be demonstrated. If anyone can pull it off, it's Jill, but it might be just out of reach. Otherwise, Jill can assist in a straight-forward 3-turn clear over the trees. There exists, however, more involved 3-turn clears that go the long way 'round. Oscar and Jill are equally capable in such clears.
Endgame: Jill and Oscar can help clear the way for Ike and Elincia in the conventional clears. Jill's flight might be a slight advantage here (I'm not too familiar with Endgame LTCs).

Summary:
Oscar and Jill are both fantastic units that can make great contributions throughout the game. Oscar has numerous unique contributions in earlygame. Oscar is necessary for the fastest clears of chapters 1, 6, 7, 9, and 10 (stealth). Jill might be necessary for he fastest clears of chapters 25 and 28 (unverified). The remainder of their contributions can be replicated by other units.

Concerning those other chapter contributions, Oscar has notable advantages in chapters 2, 10 (brute force), 11, and 14. Oscar has minor advantages in chapters 5, 8, 12, and 16. Jill has large advantages in chapters 15, 17-4, 20, and 21. Jill has minor advantages in chapters 17-1, 17-2, 18, 23, and Endgame. On chapters 13, 17-3, 19, 22, 24, 26, and 27, Oscar and Jill's contributions are very nearly identical.

All told, I believe Oscar's contributions slightly out-weigh Jill's. Recall also that my resource assumptions stacked the deck in Jill's favor. In actuality, Oscar doesn't need as many resources as Jill for the bulk of his contributions. This is another advantage for Oscar.

Oscar > Jill

[Hawk King]

So before Jill exists, Oscar is obviously better. When they co-exist, Jill is either better than Oscar or the same as Oscar. As far as Oscar always having a LV lead, not true. Jill can bypass obstacles and expose herself to more combat allowing her to close the gap between her and Oscar. Then the Muarim and Oliver (and other) bosskills will help Jill overtake Oscar's LV.

"Opportunity costs" and "optimum resource bundles" are silly. Assuming they get the same resources for making an argument doesnt make any sense either. Jill usually wants a speedwings, Oscar does need a speedwings. Different characters have different weaknesses, therefore they need different resourses.

In the end I can understand Oscar = Jill, and maybe ever so slightly better than Jill. But he is certainly not better than Marcia.