3434 replies to this topic

[Lord Raven]

The Jill and Oscar debacle has been really interesting to watch over the years. It seems no one will be satisfied with the end result, and there are plenty of good points in favor of Jill and Oscar. It went from Jill > Oscar back to Oscar > Jill then it went back, and now people are trying to get Oscar > Jill back again. The arguments for Jill > Oscar changed the second time, though.

I at this point do solidify my Marcia > Jill stance, but I think Jill's flying allows for a ton more flexibility in a lot of areas (especially if she's a second string flier, she can aid Marcia or if she's your primary flier, she becomes a Marcia that can't double some bosses without a Brave or can't be shoved). I would much rather have the flexibility that Jill provides, since Oscar's generally a weak unit for a little while until you get BEXP anyway.

Edited by Lord Raven, 09 August 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Defeatist Elitist]

if you're not part of the SF niche and you try to make a separate tier topic, the regulars will run in and troll it to the ground

What words do I have to put here to not have my comment deleted again?

[Olwen]

Note that my arguments assume a bexp dump on Jill to be the most efficient possible and get the most out of her.

Chapter 2: Oscar's combat is valuable here. Jill has no contributions.

It might make the map a little easier, but it's not necessary in the least. Oscar does nothing to clear this chapter more quickly.

Chapter 8: Same as chapter 5; Oscar can help get Karuma's Red Gem. Jill has no contributions.

Karuma actually has a Soldier Band, not a Red Gem, which is for all intents and purposes a basically useless item. Oscar is not necessary in this chapter in the least.

Chapter 10: A promoted Oscar is necessary for the fastest stealth clears (to rescue Mordecai). A promoted Oscar is also super-helpful in brute-force 3-turn clears. An unpromoted Oscar is still useful to recruit Kieran/Brom or Nephenee. Jill has no contributions.

A promoted Oscar is not useful in the least for 3-turn clears (I don't know where you get that idea), and an unpromoted Oscar can be replaced with Marcia, who also happens to have 8 move.

Chapter 12: In a Marcia-rout, Oscar can help kill the two Ravens that approach the ship. In an 8-turn clear, Oscar can make many (admittedly unspectacular) combat contributions. If Marcia isn't orchestrating a 5-turn clear, Jill can make some very minor combat contributions after she's recruited.

No one cares about Oscar in this chapter; you really overstate his importance.

Chapter 23: Jill and Oscar can contribute substantially in this chapter with their high mov and great combat. Jill is more valuable, thanks to her ability to bypass and cover potholes, but her advantage shouldn't be overstated; it's possible to clear this chapter in 4 turns with no fliers.

I want to see this actually happen because it sounds quite implausible. It seems a little hard to believe with Ike having to be dropped 7 spaces away from from the seize square on turn 3. Can Oscar even bypass the pitfalls and walls and enemies?

Chapter 28: A 2-turn HM clear has yet to be demonstrated. If anyone can pull it off, it's Jill, but it might be just out of reach. Otherwise, Jill can assist in a straight-forward 3-turn clear over the trees. There exists, however, more involved 3-turn clears that go the long way 'round. Oscar and Jill are equally capable in such clears.

I greatly doubt that Oscar can help clear the chapter in 3 turns. First off, Ike has to be in Resolve range to one-round the red dragon guarding the boss by turn 2. Secondly, Oscar has to kill the boss on turn 2.. he just doesn't have the move to be able to reach him. There are tiger reinforcements that prevent us from 2-turning the chapter, which is why you have to rush so much. Again, Oscar is outclassed by Jill here.

Endgame: Jill and Oscar can help clear the way for Ike and Elincia in the conventional clears. Jill's flight might be a slight advantage here (I'm not too familiar with Endgame LTCs).

Jill is better, for being able to cross the fountain area more easily with her flight.

I'll make a pointing system based on each's contributions in each chapter.

No advantage = 0
Slight advantage = 0.5
Significant advantage = 1

Chapter 1: Oscar, 1
Chapter 2: No advantage
Chapter 3: No advantage
Chapter 4: No advantage
Chapter 5: Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 6: Oscar, 1
Chapter 7: Oscar, 1
Chapter 8: Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 9: Oscar, 1
Chapter 10: Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 11: Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 12: No advantage
Chapter 13: Jill, 0.5
Chapter 14: No advantage
Chapter 15: Jill, 1
Chapter 16: No advantage
Chapter 17-1: Jill, 0.5
Chapter 17-2: Jill, 1
Chapter 17-3: No advantage
Chapter 17-4: Jill, 1
Chapter 18: Jill, 0.5
Chapter 19: No advantage
Chapter 20: Jill, 1
Chapter 21: Jill, 1
Chapter 22: No advantage
Chapter 23: Jill, 0.5
Chapter 24: No advantage
Chapter 25: Jill, 1
Chapter 26: No advantage
Chapter 27: No advantage
Chapter 28: Jill, 1
Endgame: Jill, 0.5

Oscar: 6
Jill: 9.5

Edited by Aeine, 10 August 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Peekayell]

I can confirm that Boots Oscar can 4 turn chapter 23. Though my strat required Rescue Mist, Smite Mordecai, Smite Ranulf and Titania to give Ike to him. It was in a draft. Its possible but its a lot harder than with jill/marcia.Pretty sure chapter 28 cant be 3 turned with oscar btw. For reasons you yourself stated Aeine. The best I got was 4 turns in the draft because of the tigers.

Edited by Ghost Marcia Drafter, 10 August 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[Olwen]

I can confirm that Boots Oscar can 4 turn chapter 23. Though my strat required Rescue Mist, Smite Mordecai, Smite Ranulf and Titania to give Ike to him. It was in a draft. Its possible but its a lot harder than with jill/marcia.Pretty sure chapter 28 cant be 3 turned with oscar btw. For reasons you yourself stated Aeine. The best I got was 4 turns in the draft because of the tigers.

I'll go ahead and decrease Jill's advantage to slight on Chapter 23.

[Mekkah]

People argue that giving all of your resources to Levin!Arthur in FE4 is the most efficient thing to do because he's going to save the most turns in the long run. Why doesn't the same apply to Marcia/Jill?

Probably because not the same "people". The world does not consist of you vs everyone else.

[Olwen]

Probably because not the same "people". The world does not consist of you vs everyone else.

You know something is wrong when people come into a tier list thread to make ad hominem arguments.

[Mekkah]

That's not even ad hominem. "If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day." is closer to ad hominem than anything I have posted.

[Olwen]

That's not even ad hominem. "If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day." is closer to ad hominem than anything I have posted.

That was in response to someone not contributing to the discussion at hand, just like what you're doing. I suggest you offer your opinion on the matter instead of making personal remarks.

[Hawk King]

Well Aeine, using your interesting scoring method above, (which I do like) I suppose Titania would have a +1 for Chps 1-11 and the rest would be the same as Oscar. Making Tits > Jill > Oscar.

I think Titania tier should be removed and the top tier should look somthing like this:

Marcia
Titania
Jill
Oscar
Kieran


Agree, disagree?

[aku chi]

It might make the map a little easier, but it's not necessary in the least. Oscar does nothing to clear this chapter more quickly.

That sounds like a slight advantage.

Karuma actually has a Soldier Band, not a Red Gem, which is for all intents and purposes a basically useless item. Oscar is not necessary in this chapter in the least.

Serenes Forest indicates that Karuma also drops a Red Gem. Oscar can also help recruit Ilyana, act as a wall to let Soren get more Cexp, and other minor contributions. It's nothing stellar, but I'd rather have Oscar in C8 than not.

A promoted Oscar is not useful in the least for 3-turn clears (I don't know where you get that idea)

Seemed useful to me.

No one cares about Oscar in this chapter; you really overstate his importance.

Oscar's contributions here are nothing special (I said as much). Nevertheless, Oscar can contribute towards the clear more than Jill.

I want to see this actually happen because it sounds quite implausible. It seems a little hard to believe with Ike having to be dropped 7 spaces away from from the seize square on turn 3. Can Oscar even bypass the pitfalls and walls and enemies?

I've pulled it off in a draft using transformed Reyson.

I greatly doubt that Oscar can help clear the chapter in 3 turns. First off, Ike has to be in Resolve range to one-round the red dragon guarding the boss by turn 2. Secondly, Oscar has to kill the boss on turn 2.. he just doesn't have the move to be able to reach him. There are tiger reinforcements that prevent us from 2-turning the chapter, which is why you have to rush so much.

I used transformed Reyson and a Rescue staff use to get a no fliers 3-turn clear in a draft. My 3-turn clear was on NM and the chapter's units does differ notably, so it might not be possible on HM - but I doubt it. Why does the boss need to be killed on turn 2 in a 3-turn clear? With transformed Reyson, I'll be bringing four combat units to the finish line, so two of them can team up to defeat the Red Dragon blocking the way.

I'll make a pointing system based on each's contributions in each chapter.

I'd like to think this comparison is too nuanced for a numerical comparison, but you've forced my hand into at least correcting your errors.

Chapter 2: No advantage
Chapter 12: No advantage
Chapter 14: No advantage
Chapter 17-2: Jill, 1

Chapter 2: Oscar can positively contribute to this rout; Jill cannot. Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 12: Oscar can positively contribute to this rout; Jill: not so much. Oscar, 0.5
Chapter 14: Promoted Oscar is one of the best units to kill Gashilama on turn 2 (notably more reliable than Marcia). Because Jill can't be smited by Mordecai, she cannot make this awesome contribution. Oscar, 1
Chapter 17-2: Jill's advantage is minimal. If Marcia is recruited, Oscar and Jill have the exact same role in the clear. And in cases where neither Marcia nor Jill are recruited, Oscar can facilitate the Lethe 4-turn clear by ferrying Mordecai for a turn-2 smite. Only in cases where Jill is recruited and Marcia isn't does Jill have an advantage. Jill, 0.5

Which results in:

Oscar: 8
Jill: 9

This, in a comparison which favors Jill in the first place. When we consider the significant contributions promoted Oscar can potentially make in chapters 10 and 11, and the resources reserved for better uses by giving Oscar his optimal resource bundle (~500 Bexp less, (no Boots, no stat boosters, no Full Guard)), I believe Oscar has the slight edge. Certainly, there is not a tier gap of difference between Oscar and Jill.

I think Titania tier should be removed and the top tier should look somthing like this:

Marcia
Titania
Jill
Oscar
Kieran


Agree, disagree?

Marcia > Titania has not been argued (and I strongly disagree with it). I also believe I demonstrated that Oscar is slightly more valuable than Jill, but I would be satisfied with the following top tier, at this time:

Titania
Marcia
Oscar/Jill in some order
Kieran

Edited by aku chi, 10 August 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[Hawk King]

Well I think removing the Titania Tier is pretty unanimous.

Now to argue Titania/Marcia, and Jill/Oscar

Kieran is a lock for the 5th spot right?


edit: Oh, the boss for Chp 8 does NOT have the Red Gem. The healer between the boss and the cavs has it.

Edited by Hawk King, 10 August 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Lord Raven]

That was in response to someone not contributing to the discussion at hand, just like what you're doing. I suggest you offer your opinion on the matter instead of making personal remarks.

It was a contribution. He was saying the argument doesn't hold water because not everyone says that levin!arthur is the best use of resources. The same person arguing against marcia/Jill is not the same person arguing in favor of levin!arthur. It was a fairly obvious point, and if you think it's ad hominem then you don't know shit about what ad hominem is.

[Olwen]

Serenes Forest indicates that Karuma also drops a Red Gem. Oscar can also help recruit Ilyana, act as a wall to let Soren get more Cexp, and other minor contributions. It's nothing stellar, but I'd rather have Oscar in C8 than not.

http://www.serenesfo...boss_stat_h.htm

I remember getting Soldier Bands too. I think it's just a mistake on that page.

Seemed useful to me.

If Sage Soren would be useful in clearing Chapter 11, would you say he's a necessity? Should I give Sage Soren a point for being potentially able to kick ass in Chapter 11? Promoted Oscar isn't necessary for the 3-turn in the least, which already is easy enough in the first place.

Oscar's contributions here are nothing special (I said as much). Nevertheless, Oscar can contribute towards the clear more than Jill.

But he can be replaced by basically anyone, which is why I don't consider him to have any advantage over JIll.

I used transformed Reyson and a Rescue staff use to get a no fliers 3-turn clear in a draft. My 3-turn clear was on NM and the chapter's units does differ notably, so it might not be possible on HM - but I doubt it. Why does the boss need to be killed on turn 2 in a 3-turn clear? With transformed Reyson, I'll be bringing four combat units to the finish line, so two of them can team up to defeat the Red Dragon blocking the way.

Because of the dreaded tiger reinforcements, who arrive in incredibly inconvenient places if you don't kill the boss. But they don't appear at all if you kill him.

When we consider the significant contributions promoted Oscar can potentially make in chapters 10 and 11, and the resources reserved for better uses by giving Oscar his optimal resource bundle (~500 Bexp less, (no Boots, no stat boosters, no Full Guard)),

I don't know what you're talking about. Why compare Oscar and Jill to each other if one is receiving the Boots and the other isn't? Oscar's optimal resource bundle includes the Boots, and so does Jill's. Obviously Oscar > Jill if both are without the Boots.. but the Boots is so much more valuable when used on a flier, as I have demonstrated with my numerical examples. Jill > Oscar.

I know this system isn't perfect, but I think it's accurate enough. Anyway, let's argue for Marcia > Titania (assuming Marcia gets her optimal resource bundle, and assuming Titania gets the Boots and maybe an Energy Drop and Speedwing).

Chapter 1: Titania, 1
Chapter 2: Titania, 1
Chapter 3: Titania, 1
Chapter 4: Titania, 1
Chapter 5: Titania, 1
Chapter 6: Titania, 1
Chapter 7: Titania, 1
Chapter 8: Titania, 1
Chapter 9: Titania, 1
Chapter 10: No advantage
Chapter 11: Marcia, 1
Chapter 12: Marcia, 1
Chapter 13: Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 14: No advantage
Chapter 15: Marcia, 1
Chapter 16: No advantage
Chapter 17-1: Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 17-2: Marcia, 1
Chapter 17-3: No advantage
Chapter 17-4: Marcia, 1
Chapter 18: Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 19: Marcia, 1
Chapter 20: Marcia, 1
Chapter 21: Marcia, 1
Chapter 22: No advantage
Chapter 23: Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 24: No advantage
Chapter 25: Marcia, 1
Chapter 26: No advantage
Chapter 27: No advantage
Chapter 28: Marcia, 1
Endgame: Marcia, 0.5

Titania: 9
Marcia: 12

The main reason Marcia > Titania and Jill > Oscar is because of the map designs in this game. As you can see, all the chapters in which Marcia wins are because of her flight advantage over Titania, which results in a ridiculous number of turn cuts.

Honestly I can see Titania > Jill. Jill has some problems with doubling Petrine and Homasa, and does badly with magic attacks, and costs your team turns to recruit her.

I think Marcia should be in a tier of her own at the top, followed by the rest in another tier. But maybe that's just me.

Edited by Aeine, 10 August 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Anouleth]

I know this system isn't perfect, but I think it's accurate enough. Anyway, let's argue for Marcia > Titania (assuming Marcia gets her optimal resource bundle, and assuming Titania gets the Boots and maybe an Energy Drop and Speedwing).

I don't really understand this logic. Why is Titania taking the Boots?

[Olwen]

I don't really understand this logic. Why is Titania taking the Boots?

Just to make the comparison fairer, and help people understand why flight is so important in this game.

[Anouleth]

Just to make the comparison fairer, and help people understand why flight is so important in this game.

I understand that flight is important, and it doesn't make the comparison fairer. Titania loses out by taking the Boots because she'd rather give them to Jill or Tanith and invalidate some of Marcia's turn gain advantages than take them herself.

[Olwen]

I understand that flight is important, and it doesn't make the comparison fairer. Titania loses out by taking the Boots because she'd rather give them to Jill or Tanith and invalidate some of Marcia's turn gain advantages than take them herself.

Problems with Jill:

1. By far the most important one is that she might not even be recruited. Recruiting her costs around 5-6 turns in itself, which is very significant when you want to play efficiently.
2. Horrible resistance. At level 10 promoted, Marcia basically has 7 resistance over Jill.
3. She has some speed issues, which prevent her from doubling bosses like Homasa, Ena, Petrine, and Bertram. All of these units have to be killed to clear the chapter.

Problems with Tanith:

1. By the time she appears, you've already lost some turn cuts in Chapter 16, 17-2 and 17-4.
2. Overall lame bases, which is incredibly important if you want a Tanith solo. Marcia at level 10 promoted has +5 HP, +3 Str, +3 Skl, +1 Def and +3 Res over her, whereas Tanith has +5 Luk. Great speed but crappy strength, which again, prevents her from killing the aforementioned bosses. Even Marcia with 23 strength can't kill Ena and Petrine, but she can bring them down enough for a siege tome user to kill them, whereas Tanith can't.

I think it might be a good idea to consider Jill vs. Marcia:

Chapter 3: I'll give this to Jill, because it costs one turn to recruit Marcia. Jill, 0.5
Chapter 9: Again, giving it to Jill. It's two turns this time instead of one. Jill, 1
Chapter 10: Marcia, 1
Chapter 11: Marcia, 1
Chapter 12: Marcia, 1
Chapter 13: Marcia can ORKO the ravens whereas Jill can't without a Speedwing. Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 14: Giving it to Marcia here, because I believe Jill is unable to reach the boss without Mordecai's Smites. Feel free to correct me. Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 15: No advantage
Chapter 16: Jill has an easier time killing the boss of this chapter than Marcia does, but on the other hand, Jill can't even be shoved by Lethe or Mordecai (untransformed). No advantage.
Chapter 17-1: No advantage
Chapter 17-2: Marcia, for being able to be shoved by Lethe and Muarim. Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 17-3: No advantage
Chapter 17-4: Same reason as before. Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 18: No advantage
Chapter 19: Marcia, 1, since she can kill Homasa.
Chapter 20: No advantage
Chapter 21: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Ena without needing a Speedwing.
Chapter 22: No advantage
Chapter 23: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Petrine.
Chapter 24: No advantage
Chapter 25: Giving it to Jill here, because her bases are more suitable for this rout map. Jill, 0.5
Chapter 26: Marcia can double Bertram. Marcia, 0.5
Chapter 27: Going to give it to Jill here, because of those pesky tigers. Jill, 0.5
Chapter 28: No advantage.
Endgame: No advantage.

Jill: 2.5
Marcia: 7.5

Edited by Aeine, 10 August 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Lord Raven]

By far the most important one is that she might not even be recruited. Recruiting her costs around 5-6 turns in itself, which is very significant when you want to play efficiently.

if we're talking tier placements then this isn't relevant

[Snowy_One]

A bit off-topic but...

I'm curious. How exactly do you guys handle Ike seizing? I mean, even if you give it no value at all you simply cannot beat most chapters unless Ike is there on the seize spot. Does it simply not get mentioned? Does he get transported but not fight unless mentioned so? Or what?