3434 replies to this topic

[Ether]

Even with the BEXP,he still loses Att,and she still has a massive Crit lead,so she still pulls an offense win.The Avo gap closes a bit,and Geoff gained a bit more concrete durability,so he probably pulls a slight durability win.They are still quite similar.

I hope you are joking when you say that from chapters 7-25 Mia isn't positive at all,I really hope you are,or you have just lost all credibility,seriously.

Either way it's 1-2 range(which Mia can do,just not as well),and 2 move versus 18 chapters of contribution(with 17 counted as 1 chapter,BTW)

I just don't see how he's above her.

I'm sorry, I use actual logic, which means I don't give MIa wrathBEXPmultiplespecialswordsetc on a silver platter so she's not sucking dick and not give Geoffrey anything at all.

Again, why is it that whenever people talk about "contribution", they blatantly ignore the fact that the unit's taking resources in the process? You can't apply the positive and ignore the negative that comes with it. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You can't see how Geoffrey's above her? How about the fact that if I don't use Mia, I can instead distribute all the resources she's hogging to other units on the team? This is Geoffrey vs Mia, not Geoffrey + Mia, which means we don't mindlessly throw everything we have on Mia and not give Geoffrey anything because it went to Mia instead.

I didn't give her all that much.I gave her BEXP(And I gave some to Geoffrey as well in the new comparison) and Wrath.Nothing else,yes I used a killing edge as a weapon in the comparison,but i also gave Geoffrey access to two of them.

As for Mia having Wrath,when she's in play,she will get it,because she's the best person tp use it due to innate vantage (someone else could take the vantage and wrath scrolls i guess,but then you have real favoritism on your hands,not the BS that you keep claiming that people give Mia.

Geoffrey could use Wrath as well,if that consoles you,so now he has offense similar to mia when he's at half HP,but with durability similar to Tauro,it doesn't happen that often,and he's still getting hit before he blicks things.Argue another skill on him if you want,I chose Wrath since it's available on Geoff's team,and I don't see ant skills he could really put much use to.Please enlighten me to them,but stop claiming that I'm shoving Resources into Mia.I'm just using her,and she's contributing.

[Red Fox of Fire]

Red Fox, your assesment is inaccurate. If we use Gatrie in earlygame(why wouldn't we, he's one of our best units), then he's obviously going to gain levels, 20/1 by Chapter 21 is absurd, I can't seriously believe you people think Mia's going to have like a 7 level lead on Gatrie.

Wait, you want Gatrie doubling, right? As for his early game contribution, I gave him the best case scenario when I said he gets close but doesn't actually gain a level, because then he can use the Knight Ward for 55% Spd growth instead of that shitty 25%. I never said he wasn't being used in early game, but even if he's used extensively, he's not likely to gain more than a single level anyway, maybe 2, but then his Spd just ends up worse.

You can make him 20/1 by 20 or even 19 and he still won't double much at all. In fact, every single enemy listed in chapter 19 has 10+ AS, so good game Gatrie. It doubles a few things in 18, but none of the reinforcements. And don't forget that this is a favorable position for Gatrie (He won't always have the KW/he can level in early game).

You also seemed to skip over the problem with Gatrie getting experience. His mobility is the worst on the team and since he never doubles he doesn't kill as often because while his Str is pretty good it's not high enough to offset not doubling.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, I'm wondering how Zihark is so much above Geoffrey if Mia's early game is hurting her so much. Considering with giving Mia and Zihark both a reasonable amount of bexp puts them both to level 14 to start chapter 12 (assuming each gets a level in chapter 11) and they have pretty even stats, I'm not seeing how his is better. Oh, and they are pretty even as well if they are both stuck at level 10 for chapter 11, but that's a little silly since we have all this bexp and in most cases spreading it a bit should make for a stronger team overall. He has a few chapters before he hits C Brom, but even then that's only going to cancel her lck lead and give a 3 avo advantage for him. Considering either unit should frequently be using killing edges at this point to prevent their offence from being too bad, she has a pretty good chance with her innate vantage to not take a hit, surely giving her an effective avo that is higher than his, probably even by enough to cancel an Ilyana support as well, where she needs to cancel out 8 avo. Without Zihark having CC, she'll win, with Zihark having CC, she's probably not winning at 1-range by enough to account for the 8 avo difference at 2 range. But don't forget enemies are sometimes running around weakened and she's KOing them automatically on enemy phase (some of them) while he's still getting attacked.

So basically, until Zihark gets BC Brom/Ilyana, he's not winning aside from his adept giving a win on offence, though it's not huge. Once he hits BC Brom/Ilyana, he's likely winning avo by more than enough when facing two range to account for any potential wins Mia may have at 1 range, and soon enough Mia won't be winning at one range anymore anyway. But if he's waiting for Muarim, chances are she beats a Zihark with C Brom only, and ties (defensively) a Zihark with B Brom. Then in chapter 19 Zihark gets Muarim but Mia gets wrath. So BC, soon to be AC then AB, and Zihark clearly is more durable at 2 range or when Mia can't 3HKO the enemy, or 4HKO with a brave, anyway. I have a feeling if she doesn't 3HKO with a steel forge, though, she won't 4HKO with a brave, either. Still, with wrath, it would give her a 40 to 50 % chance of double critting, anyway, I think. 70% is 49%, afterall.

And before someone complains about the weapons, no, I'm not denying Zihark these. Z gets the same killing edge access Mia does, and the same brave sword access mia does.

As for the whole wrath thing, I suppose you could give Zihark adept + wrath for the comparison. Giving him Vantage + Wrath however is stupid for two reasons:

1. The guy will have an extra 15 avo by the time wrath appears, hitting 20 and 25 soon after, possibly 30 if you go with AB Brom/Muarim. It's a waste of vantage when the army gets more out of putting it elsewhere.
2. Your army has one less user of adept, congratulations.

Anyway, adept + wrath it is. So, he gets no durability improvement out of it, so basically it's just offence. He's got more offence than Mia, sure, but it's like comparing an 85% proc rate to 93%, or whatever the actual numbers are.

Basically, Zihark > Mia is probably true (more durability, more offence), but they shouldn't be so far apart. (As for 2 range, why are we letting sword only users get attacked all the time? Sure, sometimes it's best to go in there with a guy like Zihark and let him get attacked by one or two enemies while weakening/killing 3 or 4 others, but that's not always true, so while it's an advantage, it isn't a gigantic advantage. Again, Zihark > Mia, but not by this much.)

[Sol Hiryu]

Narga, I'm not going to go into the whole topic of Zihark and Mia, but just one thing:

Considering either unit should frequently be using killing edges at this point to prevent their offence from being too bad, she has a pretty good chance with her innate vantage to not take a hit

I dunno what you mean there, but given there are a grand total of two Killing Edges in the game, including the one Zihark comes with, I'd certainly count it as a scarce enough resource if someone has to rely on it. The second one comes in Chapter 21, after they promote and don't really need it as much. So that leaves one Killing Edge with a total of 25 uses to be shared/fought over by three units in your army.

Too tired to delve into other arguments at the moment. Legs are killing me.

[Sasori]

Maybe a noob question but why would Mia get the rune or sonic sword (her magic isn't really high) when mist and tanith puts them to better use.

Edited by Sasori, 27 September 2009 - 03:51 AM.

[Progenitus]

I have thought about this some more and changed my mind about Mia being better than Zihark

Alright, that's all I need to hear.

I didn't give her all that much.I gave her BEXP(And I gave some to Geoffrey as well in the new comparison) and Wrath.Nothing else,yes I used a killing edge as a weapon in the comparison,but i also gave Geoffrey access to two of them.

...okay? Do you realize that if Mia has only just wrath, there aren't many situations where Mia can actually walk around at half HP safely because there are a lot of enemies her vantage doesn't work against? She's going to need crap like the SS and the VK to accompany it?

"BUT U CAN HEAL MIA OR NOT STICK HER IN RANGE OF ENEMIEZ"

Oh great, so instead of having wrath on a unit who can actually survive at half HP with no problems, instead wrath is stuck being a safety net on Mia. Such a great use of this awesome skill, rite

As for Mia having Wrath,when she's in play,she will get it,because she's the best person tp use it due to innate vantage (someone else could take the vantage and wrath scrolls i guess,but then you have real favoritism on your hands,not the BS that you keep claiming that people give Mia.

Geoffrey's team is not at all forced to field Mia, which means there's a free wrath scroll floating around for his team.

And I already explained why Vantage isn't really significant favoritism unless Neph is on the team.

Geoffrey could use Wrath as well,if that consoles you,so now he has offense similar to mia when he's at half HP,but with durability similar to Tauro,it doesn't happen that often,and he's still getting hit before he blicks things.Argue another skill on him if you want,I chose Wrath since it's available on Geoff's team,and I don't see ant skills he could really put much use to.Please enlighten me to them,but stop claiming that I'm shoving Resources into Mia.I'm just using her,and she's contributing.

The whole point about wrath is that Mia using wrath better than Geoffrey should simply be an advantage for her. It should not be locked to her, especially when several other units want it, and everyone becomes ridiculous with Vantage + Wrath, and the disadvantage of taking wrath (no one else can use it) has to be considered.

As an example, let's say we had Mia2. She is exactly the same as the regular Mia who I'll dub Mia1; same joining time, bases, growths, etc. Except after you beat chapter 18, Mia2 automatically learns wrath (Mia1 doesn't). Obviously, Mia2 >>> Mia1, since Mia2 isn't taking away the wrath skill from anyone else, since she got it for free, and now Mia2's team has a free wrath scroll for someone else to use. The vibe I was getting from everyone was that Mia1 would be equal to Mia2 because no one was caring about the disadvantage of Mia1 taking the wrath scroll.

[Scarlet]

Maybe a noob question but why would Mia get the rune or sonic sword (her magic isn't really high) when mist and tanith puts them to better use.

Neither Mist nor Tanith will always be fielded together with Mia, and whether they put it to better use or not is arguable. They probably do more damage with it due to their higher MAG stats, but it may actually help Wrath!Mia survive if she gets it and crits 2-range-enemies with it before they get to attack. Since better offense AND better durability when getting it is better than just having better offense with it, Mia may also have a chance to get those weapons when Mist and/or Tanith are in play as well (the latter actually has Javelins to fall back on anyway, so she doesn't even really need it), though of course she's not guaranteed to. The possibility is there, though, and it's pretty high.

[Ether]

I have thought about this some more and changed my mind about Mia being better than Zihark

Alright, that's all I need to hear.

I didn't give her all that much.I gave her BEXP(And I gave some to Geoffrey as well in the new comparison) and Wrath.Nothing else,yes I used a killing edge as a weapon in the comparison,but i also gave Geoffrey access to two of them.

...okay? Do you realize that if Mia has only just wrath, there aren't many situations where Mia can actually walk around at half HP safely because there are a lot of enemies her vantage doesn't work against? She's going to need crap like the SS and the VK to accompany it?

"BUT U CAN HEAL MIA OR NOT STICK HER IN RANGE OF ENEMIEZ"

Oh great, so instead of having wrath on a unit who can actually survive at half HP with no problems, instead wrath is stuck being a safety net on Mia. Such a great use of this awesome skill, rite

As for Mia having Wrath,when she's in play,she will get it,because she's the best person tp use it due to innate vantage (someone else could take the vantage and wrath scrolls i guess,but then you have real favoritism on your hands,not the BS that you keep claiming that people give Mia.

Geoffrey's team is not at all forced to field Mia, which means there's a free wrath scroll floating around for his team.

And I already explained why Vantage isn't really significant favoritism unless Neph is on the team.

Geoffrey could use Wrath as well,if that consoles you,so now he has offense similar to mia when he's at half HP,but with durability similar to Tauro,it doesn't happen that often,and he's still getting hit before he blicks things.Argue another skill on him if you want,I chose Wrath since it's available on Geoff's team,and I don't see ant skills he could really put much use to.Please enlighten me to them,but stop claiming that I'm shoving Resources into Mia.I'm just using her,and she's contributing.

The whole point about wrath is that Mia using wrath better than Geoffrey should simply be an advantage for her. It should not be locked to her, especially when several other units want it, and everyone becomes ridiculous with Vantage + Wrath, and the disadvantage of taking wrath (no one else can use it) has to be considered.

As an example, let's say we had Mia2. She is exactly the same as the regular Mia who I'll dub Mia1; same joining time, bases, growths, etc. Except after you beat chapter 18, Mia2 automatically learns wrath (Mia1 doesn't). Obviously, Mia2 >>> Mia1, since Mia2 isn't taking away the wrath skill from anyone else, since she got it for free, and now Mia2's team has a free wrath scroll for someone else to use. The vibe I was getting from everyone was that Mia1 would be equal to Mia2 because no one was caring about the disadvantage of Mia1 taking the wrath scroll.

I never said it was locked to her,just that the likelyhood that she gets it is quite high,due to not only her ease of use,but the fact that it greatly improves her worst aspect,durability.

On Mia's team,Mia takes Wrath,and nobody really cares except perhaps the one person who grabbed the vantage scroll,assuming that it wasn't Neph,or someone else with a workable skill,like adept or Guard.

On Geoffrey's team,Wrath is available,but if you don't have vantage,it's like a double edged sword,improving offense at the cost of more exposure,so it makes a non-vantage unit easier to die.

There is an opportunity cost to Mia taking Wrath when she's played,but she still pulls positive with it,as the opportunity cost isn't that high.

As for Mia being unable to effectively use Wrath,you must remember that enemies using 2-range are a minority,and some things,(snipers,Sm's,some Halbs,and cats once she get's a level),actually 3HKO her at half health in chapter 26.

As well,Mia has a player phase.If there are too many enemies around,she can heal up,and those sages that are kind of painful,player phase blick.If she get's hit by the sage,which menas she didn't critical,and he hit her,and is at like,8 health or something because of it,you obviously heal her.I don't know about you,but if my units aren't in mortal danger,I tend to heal after i've made my attacks,in case someone takes an unlucky hit.

As for Mia1 and Mia2,yes,if she learned it automatically,she would be better,but the skill is not so desired that Mia2 is like a tier ahead of Mia1 or anything.There's opportunity cost,but it's not major.Again,Mia is only now hitting Mid tier,so she only uses up Wrath,like 40-50% of PT's,because on the others,she isn't fielded.

[-Cynthia-]

Fine, Mia>Geoffrey.

As for Tormod, try to argue him above Largo or something if you want him moved up. Although the claim that he'll be near in levels to Gatrie is pretty ridiculous, Gatrie has 2 levels at base and 7 chapters, that would cause a large level lead.

[Interceptor]

All this talk about PoR made me want to play it again, so I blew the dust off of my disc this weekend. I figured it would be a good idea to look at Mia's performance in a real playthrough, as opposed to a transfer run, to see if the reality matched my memories. Is she really as bad as people keep asserting? Is my run slowed down by using her? Does the BEXP needlessly pauper the army? Etc. I started a run with the idea of playing Mia efficiently, in Fixed mode, so that she didn't get RNG-blessed or anything.



Preliminary results? All of you who say that Mia is a drag on the party are out of your fucking trees. Do you have any idea how to play this game at all? Jesus Christ, I thought this game was easy when I was doing transfer runs that delibrately used crappy characters and hoarded BEXP/stat-ups until Endgame... when I am playing efficiently, with an eye towards winning, it's not just easy, it's a non-stop steamroll curb-stomp.

I'll give an example. In Chapter 7, Mia is basically dead weight. I had her kill the archer that spawned chasing her, and then I just used her for opening chests and maybe killing some scrub-bag that Titania missed by 2 HP if I had nothing better to do at the time. This is an 11-turn chapter for BEXP purposes, and I was running out of shit to kill on turn 7-8.

Come next chapter, I get access to Base and I decide to put the BEXP theory to the test. Let's level-up Mia and make her good. So, I took my copious amounts of BEXP (I got max for every chapter, naturally, since my cat could beat this game), and spread it out amongst Mia, Boyd, and Oscar so that all three of them were level 10 at the end. This left me with 918 BEXP, which admittedly is quite a bit left of the ~1500+, and I could have spent it right there, but I want to save some for Ilyana (since I am going to use her) and other up-and-coming units.

Well, it didn't matter anyway, I raped that chapter so hard that on Turn 8 (the last turn) I had nothing left to kill. At all. Everything was dead. Two random idiots that spawned on the last possible turn, a soldier and a myrm in the east, used their actions to suicide into Boyd on Enemy Phase. Here's some of what those poor bastards were up against:

- Boyd, level 10. 13mt forged Iron Axe, 12 STR, 10 SPD. Boyd was ORKO'ing Armors in this chapter. ARMORS. Would more levels would have made a difference here? Not likely!
- Oscar, level 10. Steel/Iron lances, Short Spear/Jav, 9 STR, 11 SPD. Not a ORKO'ing maniac, but doubles tons of shit and does good damage via Canto-bombing and 2-ranging.
- Titania, level 5. Steel/Iron axes, Hand Axe. 14 STR, 16 SPD. Those who know how to play the game know that you give Titania the boss kills (not that it takes any effort, since she stares at a boss and it dies), so this amped-up Titania is ORKO'ing tons of shit with just plain Hand Axes.
- Mia, level 10. Iron/Steel swords, Armorslayer. 9 STR, 15 SPD. Well holy shit, look what happens when you're not sandbagging Mia by not fixing her level. Now she's doing double 10's on Armors in this level with the slayer, aka 3HKO aka 2RKO aka better than Ike with a Regal.

Chapter 8 pwned. Chapter 9 found me sending Mia, Ilyana (who got some BEXP'ed levels to double a few things), Mist, Rolf, and Titania (to catch the bandit) down on the sand. Destruction happened, nothing with and axe could hurt Mia, and Ilyana's 2-range plus occasional potshot chips from Rolf made this a leisurely stroll on the beach. Got both houses saved, and even pwned the pirate reinforcements. The rest of the army had no problems plowing through to the Sieze square.

Chapter 10. I didn't Metal Gear Solid this one, I blazed through it like a herd of bulls left loose in a china shop (I wanted the treasure and master seal). Mia's contributions here included fighting the reinforcements that back-door you when the alarm sounds, as well as smashing apart the Armors at the exit. As with Chapter 7, I found myself 4 turns from the BEXP limit with really nothing left to kill and nobody left to rescue.

Chapter 11. All of my primary combatants, Mia included, are at least level 14-15 at this point. I deploy both Lethe/Mordy (slots to spare), and carefully position them so that Zihark doesn't waste KE uses (success!). Mia is doing a little bit less than normal in this chapter since she can't keep up with Tits and crew (who are charging toward the Arrive with Ike in tow), so I put her with Boyd/Ilyana and they clean up slow-movers and reinforcements. Z/Mordy/Lethe take care of the items/enemies on the north side.

Chapter 12. I top off the rest of Mia's level, bringing her to 17 (she is a touch ahead of others at this point, who are 16ish). I pass out more BEXP to even it up. I still have over 1100 fucking BEXP left over at this point, but I'd feel like a tool for spending it since I'm already raping the shit out of everything. I could give some to Zihark, who is getting badly beaten by Mia at this point (2 STR behind, 4 SPD behind, 5 LCK behind, 2 DEF behind, 2 HP behind, 4 RES behind, and Mia has C Rhys by this point for +1 mt/ +5 HIT), but there's no point in using two Myrms for this playthrough (another time, big Z). Anyway, you already know how this story turns out: Mia rapes the shit out of this chapter because she's doubling for like 20 damage a pop with the Laguzslayer, aka instant ORKO on every Raven in the chapter.

Chapter 13. Mia is level 18 now, she's probably going to promote to Swordmaster by the time that Chapter 15 is over, just in time for the VAGUE KATTI. I wonder if I will even bother with Wrath at this point. I mean, it's not even fair to the enemies.



Do I even need to keep fucking going? When does Mia magically start slowing down my team, exactly? Can someone help me out, here? Should I maybe start the game over and start doing retarded shit like having Soren tank and Volke be my primary damage dealer? Maybe I should BEXP dump Rolf or Mist so that I can't raise anyone else? Maybe I should kill off half my team? Maybe everyone needs iron weapons? Speaking of which, I didn't even give Mia a forge yet.

People who say that Mia is a piece of shit, help me out, here. I'm not really good at playing inefficiently and/or making stupid resource allocation decisions.

[Ether]

All this talk about PoR made me want to play it again, so I blew the dust off of my disc this weekend. I figured it would be a good idea to look at Mia's performance in a real playthrough, as opposed to a transfer run, to see if the reality matched my memories. Is she really as bad as people keep asserting? Is my run slowed down by using her? Does the BEXP needlessly pauper the army? Etc. I started a run with the idea of playing Mia efficiently, in Fixed mode, so that she didn't get RNG-blessed or anything.



Preliminary results? All of you who say that Mia is a drag on the party are out of your fucking trees. Do you have any idea how to play this game at all? Jesus Christ, I thought this game was easy when I was doing transfer runs that delibrately used crappy characters and hoarded BEXP/stat-ups until Endgame... when I am playing efficiently, with an eye towards winning, it's not just easy, it's a non-stop steamroll curb-stomp.

I'll give an example. In Chapter 7, Mia is basically dead weight. I had her kill the archer that spawned chasing her, and then I just used her for opening chests and maybe killing some scrub-bag that Titania missed by 2 HP if I had nothing better to do at the time. This is an 11-turn chapter for BEXP purposes, and I was running out of shit to kill on turn 7-8.

Come next chapter, I get access to Base and I decide to put the BEXP theory to the test. Let's level-up Mia and make her good. So, I took my copious amounts of BEXP (I got max for every chapter, naturally, since my cat could beat this game), and spread it out amongst Mia, Boyd, and Oscar so that all three of them were level 10 at the end. This left me with 918 BEXP, which admittedly is quite a bit left of the ~1500+, and I could have spent it right there, but I want to save some for Ilyana (since I am going to use her) and other up-and-coming units.

Well, it didn't matter anyway, I raped that chapter so hard that on Turn 8 (the last turn) I had nothing left to kill. At all. Everything was dead. Two random idiots that spawned on the last possible turn, a soldier and a myrm in the east, used their actions to suicide into Boyd on Enemy Phase. Here's some of what those poor bastards were up against:

- Boyd, level 10. 13mt forged Iron Axe, 12 STR, 10 SPD. Boyd was ORKO'ing Armors in this chapter. ARMORS. Would more levels would have made a difference here? Not likely!
- Oscar, level 10. Steel/Iron lances, Short Spear/Jav, 9 STR, 11 SPD. Not a ORKO'ing maniac, but doubles tons of shit and does good damage via Canto-bombing and 2-ranging.
- Titania, level 5. Steel/Iron axes, Hand Axe. 14 STR, 16 SPD. Those who know how to play the game know that you give Titania the boss kills (not that it takes any effort, since she stares at a boss and it dies), so this amped-up Titania is ORKO'ing tons of shit with just plain Hand Axes.
- Mia, level 10. Iron/Steel swords, Armorslayer. 9 STR, 15 SPD. Well holy shit, look what happens when you're not sandbagging Mia by not fixing her level. Now she's doing double 10's on Armors in this level with the slayer, aka 3HKO aka 2RKO aka better than Ike with a Regal.

Chapter 8 pwned. Chapter 9 found me sending Mia, Ilyana (who got some BEXP'ed levels to double a few things), Mist, Rolf, and Titania (to catch the bandit) down on the sand. Destruction happened, nothing with and axe could hurt Mia, and Ilyana's 2-range plus occasional potshot chips from Rolf made this a leisurely stroll on the beach. Got both houses saved, and even pwned the pirate reinforcements. The rest of the army had no problems plowing through to the Sieze square.

Chapter 10. I didn't Metal Gear Solid this one, I blazed through it like a herd of bulls left loose in a china shop (I wanted the treasure and master seal). Mia's contributions here included fighting the reinforcements that back-door you when the alarm sounds, as well as smashing apart the Armors at the exit. As with Chapter 7, I found myself 4 turns from the BEXP limit with really nothing left to kill and nobody left to rescue.

Chapter 11. All of my primary combatants, Mia included, are at least level 14-15 at this point. I deploy both Lethe/Mordy (slots to spare), and carefully position them so that Zihark doesn't waste KE uses (success!). Mia is doing a little bit less than normal in this chapter since she can't keep up with Tits and crew (who are charging toward the Arrive with Ike in tow), so I put her with Boyd/Ilyana and they clean up slow-movers and reinforcements. Z/Mordy/Lethe take care of the items/enemies on the north side.

Chapter 12. I top off the rest of Mia's level, bringing her to 17 (she is a touch ahead of others at this point, who are 16ish). I pass out more BEXP to even it up. I still have over 1100 fucking BEXP left over at this point, but I'd feel like a tool for spending it since I'm already raping the shit out of everything. I could give some to Zihark, who is getting badly beaten by Mia at this point (2 STR behind, 4 SPD behind, 5 LCK behind, 2 DEF behind, 2 HP behind, 4 RES behind, and Mia has C Rhys by this point for +1 mt/ +5 HIT), but there's no point in using two Myrms for this playthrough (another time, big Z). Anyway, you already know how this story turns out: Mia rapes the shit out of this chapter because she's doubling for like 20 damage a pop with the Laguzslayer, aka instant ORKO on every Raven in the chapter.

Chapter 13. Mia is level 18 now, she's probably going to promote to Swordmaster by the time that Chapter 15 is over, just in time for the VAGUE KATTI. I wonder if I will even bother with Wrath at this point. I mean, it's not even fair to the enemies.



Do I even need to keep fucking going? When does Mia magically start slowing down my team, exactly? Can someone help me out, here? Should I maybe start the game over and start doing retarded shit like having Soren tank and Volke be my primary damage dealer? Maybe I should BEXP dump Rolf or Mist so that I can't raise anyone else? Maybe I should kill off half my team? Maybe everyone needs iron weapons? Speaking of which, I didn't even give Mia a forge yet.

People who say that Mia is a piece of shit, help me out, here. I'm not really good at playing inefficiently and/or making stupid resource allocation decisions.

Thank you.Interceptor.I think this shows exactly how Mia performs in her early chapters.So now i'll say it again,and no one can claim otherwise(except Smash,cause he has Int on ignore),that Mia isn't a fucking detriment.EVER.

[-Cynthia-]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

Edited by -Cynthia-, 27 September 2009 - 01:09 PM.

[Narga_Rocks]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

Except from what I read he had plenty of bexp left over for other units if he wanted to. Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. Also, she appears to be quite superior to anything those units would be capable of doing in chapter 12, for one thing.

[Scarlet]

Very well, I'll try Tormod vs. Gatrie then.

Gatrie is a pretty cool guy, he joins at chapter 3 with such a high DEF base that he's pretty much immortal against the wimpy enemies there and doesn't afraid of anything. I have no doubt that he's pretty useful there; his amazing earlygame is Gatrie's greatest advantage. However, he then leaves the team in chapter 7 and rejoins in chapter 13. The enemies in the first few chapters all have a significantly lower level than Gatrie, so he doesn't get very much EXP from a single enemies, but the amount of enemies he can face without fear balances that out, I guess. I'll assume he gets 3 levels before he leaves.

Alright, so he comes back in chapter 13 with these stats:
Lv12 Gatrie:
33.4 HP, 13.65 STR, 0.15 MAG, 7.65 SKL, 5.75 SPD, 5.75 LUK, 15.8 DEF, 0.9 RES
Steel Lance: 23.65 Atk, 88.175 Hit, 3.825 Crt, 5.75 AS, 17.25 Avd
Javelin: 19.65 Atk, 78.175 Hit, 3.825 Crt, 5.75 AS, 17.25 Avd

How does he fare against the enemies there?

Lv12 Myrmidon (Iron Sword): 24 HP, 6 Def, 13 AS, 29 Avd | 14 Atk, 116 Hit, 6 Crt
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 69 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Lv13 Soldier (Steel Lance): 29 HP, 8 Def, 5 AS, 14 Avd | 19 Atk, 90 Hit, 5 Crt
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 74 DHit (3RKOs at 64 DHit with Javelin), gets 11RKO'd at 73 DHit in return

Lv12 Archer (Steel Bow): 24 HP, 8 Def, 8 AS, 19 Avd | 17 Atk, 97 Hit, 6 Crt
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 69 DHit (3RKOs at 59 DHit with Javelin), gets 33RKO'd at 80 DHit in return

Lv13 Fighter (Steel Axe): 34 HP, 8 Def, 5 AS, 13 Avd | 23 Atk, 82 Hit, 4 Crt
---> Gatrie 3RKOs at 65 DHit (4RKOs at 55 DHit with Javelin), gets 5RKO'd at 75 DHit in return

Lv11 Mage (Thunder): 22 HP, 5 Def, 8 AS, 18 Avd | 14 Atk, 100 Hit, 8 Crt
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 70 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 83 DHit and 2 Crt in return

Lv3 Raven (Beak): 28 HP, 10 Def, 14 AS, 28 Avd | 17 Atk, 112 Hit, 5 Crt
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 60 DHit (3RKOs if his STR rounds down or the Raven's HP rounds up) (3RKOs with Javelin at 50 DHit, 4RKOs if his STR rounds down or the Raven's HP rounds up), gets 17RKO'd at 95 DHit in return

So in other words, Gatrie still pwns defensively (except against the mages, who actually have a chance of insta-blicking him), but his offense sucks balls. Not only does he not ORKO anything at all, but he also has severe Hit issues, especially if he pulls out a Javelin to counter ranged enemies. He can act as a wall pretty reliably, but someone will have to clean up the enemies that attacked him afterwards (he simply stalls them), so I wouldn't exactly consider him very helpful at this point, though he is usable.
Also note that promoting Gatrie early at this point would be pointless, as he still wouldn't double or OHKO anything; it would simply turn some 3RKOs into 2RKOs and prevent the mages from insta-blicking him if they crit him (though they'd still leave him only at low single-digit HP), but that's about it. I'd consider that a waste, so let's not do that.

Anyway, let's fast-forward to chapter 16, where Tormod joins. I'll give Tormod the Master Seal again, so I'll let Gatrie keep the Knight Ward for the whole time as a compensation. I'll also give both of them the exact same amount of BEXP (514) so that I don't get this favoritism stuff again.

Lv12/1 Tormod (+ Paladin Band):
26.75 HP, 5.0 STR, 13.25 MAG, 13.0 SKL, 13.5 SPD, 9.75 LUK, 7.25 DEF, 13.25 RES
> Elfire: 18.25 Atk, 115.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd
Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 21.25 Atk, 125.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

Lv19 Gatrie (514 BEXP = 4 levels; other than that 1 level per chapter, which is generous considering that chapter 15 is the desert. Assuming Knight Ward from Lv12 and onwards), C Marcia:
39.0 HP, 17.5 STR, 0.5 MAG, 11.5 SKL, 9.6 SPD, 7.5 LUK, 20.0 (+3) DEF, 3.0 (+3) RES
> Steel Lance: 28.5 Atk, 101.75 Hit, 5.75 Crt, 9.6 AS, 26.7 Avd
Javelin: 24.5 Atk, 91.75 Hit, 5.75 Crt, 9.6 AS, 26.7 Avd

Well, well. What shall I say? Gatrie still doesn't double crap (except maybe armor knights) and even though he hits pretty damn hard, he needs to actually hit first, which can be rather troublesome for him, and he's pretty much screwed if his supports aren't in range. Of course he's immortal im comparison to Tormod, but he'll also be totally left in the dust by Tormod's almost twice as high movement range, and even though Tormod is a lot more frail than Gatrie is, he can at least offset that a bit by not taking a counter in his Player Phase. Additionally, Gatrie doesn't have any answer to Tormod's staves.
Anyway, let's compare them to enemies directly (chapter 16):

Lv15 Myrmidon (Steel Sword): 26 HP, 7 Def/4 Res, 14 AS, 32 Avd | 20 Atk, 105 Hit, 7 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 84 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 68 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 80 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Lv15 Fighter (Steel Axe): 36 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 8 AS, 20 Avd | 24 Atk, 85 Hit, 4 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs (3 Hits) at 96 DHit, gets 2RKO'd at 48 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 72 DHit (3RKOs at 62 DHit with Javelin), gets 20RKO'd at 68 DHit in return

Lv16 Mage (Elthunder): 25 HP, 6 Def/13 Res, 8 AS, 19 Avd | 20 Atk, 96 Hit, 15 Crt
---> Tormod 4RKOs at 77 DHit (2RKOs at 87 DHit with the forge), gets 4RKO'd at 69 DHit and 5 Crt in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 83 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 69 DHit and 7 Crt in return

Lv14 Knight (Iron Lance): 30 HP, 18 Def/6 Res, 4 AS, 11 Avd | 18 Atk, 97 Hit, 4 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 60 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 91 DHit (3RKOs at 81 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv14 Soldier (Steel Lance): 30 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 7 AS, 17 Avd | 20 Atk, 93 Hit, 5 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 99 DHit (ORKOs if his MAG happens to round up or if he uses the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 56 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 85 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Alright, so Gatrie wins combat right now, but remember that Tormod has just joined in this chapter, and also has almost twice as much MOV and staves to top it off. Their offense actually is about the same (unless Tormod pulls out a forge, in which case he slightly wins), it's just that Gatrie doesn't need to worry about dying (again, except against the mages) while Tormod gets 3RKO'd by most stuff, which is neither spectacular nor bad, especially since he doesn't eat counters on Player Phase. I'm inclined to say, however, that [staves and more MOV] > [overkill durability].


Let's give them some more time, shall we? Let's compare them again at chapter 22.

Lv12/10 Tormod, B Reyson, C Calill, (+ Paladin Band):
31.7 HP, 6.8 STR, 17.3 MAG, 16.6 SKL, 18.0 SPD, 12.9 LUK, 9.5 DEF, 17.3 RES
> Elfire: 25.3 Atk, 136.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd
Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 28.3 Atk, 146.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd

Lv20/7 Gatrie, B Marcia, B Ilyana (+ Knight Ward):
47.6 HP, 24.35 STR, 2.85 MAG, 17.35 SKL, 15.75 SPD, 9.25 LUK, 24.6 (+5) DEF, 8.1 (+5) RES
> Steel Lance: 35.35 Atk, 129.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd
Silver Lance: 40.35 Atk, 134.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd
Javelin: 31.35 Atk, 119.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd

Okay, so Gatrie's hit issues no longer exist. Actually, Gatrie looks pretty damn beastly now. He's even got somewhat decent AS now. But is it enough to impress Tormod? Let's see.

Lv4 Halberdier (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 13 Def/8 Res, 13 AS, 30 Avd | 22 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 49 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 99 DHit (3RKOs at 89 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv4 Paladin (Steel Lance): 35 HP, 16 Def/9 Res, 15 AS, 35 Avd | 25 Atk, 92 Hit, 5 Crt
---> Tormod 3RKOs at 100 DHit (2RKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 41 DHit in return (2RKO'd if his DEF rounds down)
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 94 DHit (3RKOs at 84 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv6 Warrior (Steel Axe): 45 HP, 11 Def/6 Res, 13 AS, 31 Avd | 28 Atk, 91 Hit, 6 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge if his MAG happens to round up), gets 2RKO'd at 40 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 88 DHit (3RKOs at 78 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv5 Sage (Elthunder): 31 HP, 9 Def/15 Res, 13 AS, 29 Avd | 21 Atk, 102 Hit, 16 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 98 DHit, gets 7RKO'd at 61 DHit and 3 Crt in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 100 DHit (OHKOs with Silver Lance), gets 6RKO'd at 7 Crt in return

Lv4 Wyvern Lord (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 19 Def/7 Res, 12 AS, 26 Avd | 26 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt
---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 2RKO'd at 49 DHit in return
---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with Silver Lance), cannot be KO'd in return

Well, if you give Tormod a forge, he wins offense against most enemies, while Gatrie with a better weapon only pulls better offense against sages (as kinda expected), while he ties or loses offense against every other enemy. Gatrie is immortal, but his offense still isn't very good (except against sages, I guess); I guess this really depends on how highly you rank [earlygame + overkill durability + craptastic MOV + meh offense] vs. [staves + Celerity + good offense]. If you value the latter a little more than the former, then I guess we can say Tormod > Gatrie. If not, well, then not.

[Interceptor]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

Cynthia, that fact that Oscar and Boyd would normally be higher than Mia is a nonsense point. In FE9, I am God. I have over 1500 BEXP availible to me at the start of Chapter 8, to use as I see fit. As I went out of my way to point out, getting Boyd past 10 makes no goddamn sense at all. He's already ORKO'ing the strongest non-boss enemy on the map, what purpose would it serve to get him higher except to retard his CEXP growth by making him a higher effective level? What I basically did was put people at a level to have optimal performance, aka Boyd destroys, Oscar doubles a bunch, Mia can 3HKO Generals and survive better, etc.

As the chapters wear on, people pull away from each other because of their abiltiy to take kills. But I can always put my finger on the scale with BEXP to even things up and keep people at optimal performance. I BEXP'ed Kieran at the start of Chapter 11 so that he could double more stuff. It would have been retarded to do otherwise, since I'd be cutting his damage in half.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

How the hell is my team restricted in any substantial way? Did you not see that I'm sitting on 1100 goddamn BEXP in the beginning of Ch. 13? Rolf is level 1 atm. I could take him from noobshit to level 11-12, right now. I could BEXP the snot out of Astrid as soon as I get her, too. Fact of the matter is, although Mia has taken this BEXP, I am also throwing BEXP on my other combatants (I'd be retarded not to), and Mia is absolutely giving returns on my investment.

Sure, she's not anywhere near a Boyd or Oscar, but that's why she's not anywhere near Top tier, nor will she ever be. I suppose it's possible to go ever faster than I already am, maybe by BEXP dumping Marcia or something in Ch. 10, but good lord, what does a unit have to do to get credit for positive contributions, here?

You know, the fact of the matter is, it's so easy to leverage this game's resources to turn units into killing machines, that one of the best ways to help game completion is to EXIST. This is not to be contested, it seems logical enough: you live, you affect your world (two Internets for anyone who gets the reference).

[dondon151]

I posit that the abundance of BEXP in this game, in addition to the quality of enemies relative to PC units, greatly increases the importance of availability, since it's not really hard at all to just walk around the disadvantage of being "underleveled" by feeding units BEXP.

[-Cynthia-]

Except from what I read he had plenty of bexp left over for other units if he wanted to. Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. Also, she appears to be quite superior to anything those units would be capable of doing in chapter 12, for one thing.

Marcia is highly debatable, since she can engage the ravens several turns before and flying utility for the rest of the game is absurdly useful(Ch15).

Raymond, that wasn't especially convincing IMO, there seemed to be a lot of wins for Gatrie with Tormod only winning in the short time you Sealed him. Also 8(Tormod's Mov) is not almost double Gatrie's(6) Mov, that's a rather large exaggeration. IMO Tormod's Mov isn't actually that helpful all the time, Mov is mostly so you can expose yourself to as many enemies as possible, but Tormod can't do that since his durability is pretty terrible.

@Int The fact of the matter is that Mia needs the BEXP, most of the characters above her don't or become better with the use of BEXP than she does do to various factors. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here, unless you want Mia to move up further.

Edited by -Cynthia-, 27 September 2009 - 02:28 PM.

[Interceptor]

[...]Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. [...]

I chose a team for efficiency and Support synergy. My current line-up: Ike, Ilyana, Mia, Boyd, Kieran, Rhys, Titania, Oscar, Mist. I really wanted to use Nephenee, but I don't want to deploy her support partners and having two Wrath queens on the same team dilutes the value of the strategy. I haven't decided whether I want to add Astrid, or Jill, or any number of other ridiculously pwoerful units that will enable me to stomp the game somehow even harder than I am already stomping it.

Maybe I will add Astrid, since I have never used her before.

[Scarlet]

Raymond, that wasn't especially convincing IMO, there seemed to be a lot of wins for Gatrie with Tormod only winning in the short time you Sealed him. Also 8(Tormod's Mov) is not almost double Gatrie's(6) Mov, that's a rather large exaggeration. IMO Tormod's Mov isn't actually that helpful all the time, Mov is mostly so you can expose yourself to as many enemies as possible, but Tormod can't do that since his durability is pretty terrible.

I stated the MOV thing when I did 12/1 Tormod vs. 19 Gatrie. Unpromoted Gatrie only has 5 MOV and a worse move-type than Tormod, so I say that saying that Tormod had almost twice as much MOV at that point wasn't exaggerated. Of course it's no longer quite as significant once Gatrie promotes as well, I'm aware of that. Maybe I should've mentioned it.

Well, I guess it was worth a shot anyway. I'll probably aim a bit lower the next time then and just try to at least argue him into Mid; he should have a case against Devdan at the very least, but it's pretty late already and I'm tired, so I'll probably do that tomorrow or something.

[grandjackal]

It makes me wonder about Soren, who has a support with Ike. Titania has better people to support (and I'd take 1 ATK and 8 avoid>6 hit and 1 Def, especially since Ike's main A is Oscar for double earth), and Lethe comes later. A mere B gives Soren 1 ATK and 28 avoid. If we're agreeing we can BEXP people up to equal levels (in Soren's case, level 10), he would have these stats by chapter...When we get access to BEXP. 8 was it?

10 Soren, C Ike
22.05 HP, 0.45 Str, 11.4 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 11.6 Speed, 7.7 Luck, 3.35 Def, 11.95 Res. 31 Hit, 29+14 avoid, 6 crit. Any band configuartion would mean he would get a stat up on that stat next level up.

He reduces most people in chapter 8 to 2 RN advantage hit rates. With a forged wind, he's failing to double a grand total of 2 enemies on the map, packing 18 mt which could easily ORKO just about anything. Doing this at 1-2 range, I'd think the only one doing better is probably Boyd due to not needing avoid to be durable, Oscar for pretty much being immortal with the C from Ike, Titania for obvious reasons.

Or maybe I'm just loony.