3434 replies to this topic

[-Cynthia-]

Tier List FAQ

Top tier

Titania
Marcia
Jill
Oscar
Kieran

High

Boyd
Ike
Reyson
Tanith
Astrid
Makalov

Upper-Mid

Lethe
Muarim
Mordecai
Nephenee
Mist

Mid

Calill
Tormod
Soren
Ilyana
Stefan
Zihark
Mia
Rhys
Volke


Lower-Mid

Sothe
Haar
Gatrie
Geoffrey
Brom
Devdan

Low

Janaff
Elincia
Largo
Ranulf
Shinon
Tauroneo

Bottom

Ulki
Bastian
Rolf
Lucia
Nasir
Ena

Edited by -Cynthia-, 29 September 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Red Fox of Fire]

Wasn't Jill > Kieran proven somewhere in the last two topics? I realize Kieran > Oscar makes things complicated, but that's how it was.

[-Cynthia-]

Wasn't Jill > Kieran proven somewhere in the last two topics? I realize Kieran > Oscar makes things complicated, but that's how it was.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing oddly enough.

Kieran does have leads over Jill, namely AS when Jill joins, but it was generally decided that this was pretty easily fixable, Kieran won't be flying around anytime soon. I guess Jill could go over Kieran maybe.

[Dat Nick]

How much weight do we actually put on flying though? This isn't FE10 where terrain is everywhere. Flight is only really a big deal in one chapter.

Edited by Joker, 26 August 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[Progenitus]

How much weight do we actually put on flying though? This isn't FE10 where terrain is everywhere. Flight is only really a big deal in one chapter.

ch 12: boat
ch 13: multiple boats
ch 15: desert
ch 17: some swamp areas and trees
ch 19 and 20: cliffs
ch 21: sewers
ch 23: pitfalls
ch 24: rivers
ch 25: mountain
ch 28: trees

There's a lot of terrain in this game.

[kirsche]

Wasn't there arguments for Gatrie into mid, before?

Yeah I was thinking the same thing oddly enough.

Kieran does have leads over Jill, namely AS when Jill joins, but it was generally decided that this was pretty easily fixable, Kieran won't be flying around anytime soon. I guess Jill could go over Kieran maybe.

I think it was proven that Jill > Kieran in general, idk why you moved him above her.

How much weight do we actually put on flying though? This isn't FE10 where terrain is everywhere. Flight is only really a big deal in one chapter.

1 chapter? lolno.

Chapters 12 and 13 have small ships which would otherwise impede movement. Chapter 14 has a river, and flying over it helps prevent running into enemies in the FOW. Chapter 15 is obvious. In chapter 17, you have movfement impeding swamps and trees. In chapter 19, you have mountains. In chapter 20, you have a mountain and some fences. In chapter 21, you have rivers. In chapter 23, there are traps and sangbags. In chapter 24, you have a river and a lot of trees. In chapter 25 you have a mountain which impeds Kieran's mobility a lot. In chapter 28 you have a forest in the centre of the map and in endgame, there are fountains/hedges which can be passed over, not to mention thickets and the like.

Flying helps reach enemies, and in many times bosses, much quicker. Having Jill kill Shiharam and arrive for example is much easier to do than having Kieran kill Shiharam and arrive because Kieran goes the longer route. You can kill Oliver much, much more qucikly with Jill than Kieran. Etcetera. It also helps flexibility a lot - if Jill stays behind to kill teh reinforcements in chapter 21 that appear behind you, she can just pass over the river to reach your team, Kieran would take much longer and not participate as much in the chapter because of it.

So yeah, Flying >> Not flying.

Edited by kirsche, 26 August 2009 - 12:25 PM.

[-Cynthia-]

Jill> Kieran seems to make the most sense, it's just that Jill ends up leapfrogging over Oscar in the process and she was below him before. I'll move her above him for now.

I brought up Gatrie > Devdan

Gatrie has 3.5 earlygame chapters where's he's pretty useful, keep this in mind.

Blah, blah I'll concede Devdan is better before Gatrie promotes, but this is like ~3 chapters, so it's not a big deal.

Now I've given Gatrie 8/11 KW levelups, and 2 KW levelups to Devdan. Stat comparison

20/1 Gatrie

43 HP 21 Str 13 AS 21 Def 6 Res 34 Avo

20/6 Devdan

36 HP 15 Str 14 AS 12 Def 11 Res 45 Avo

Gatrie wins durability, 7 HP and 9! Def> 5 Res and 11 Avo.

Offensively, Gatrie's winning when both double or neither double by a pretty wide margin. Devdan doubles a little more often, but Gatrie will close this lead over time since he'll have more levelups, despite having slightly lower Spd growth.

Gatrie has partial WT control, Devdan has 1 more Mov blahblah. They both have pretty average supports IMO.

I'm not seeing how Devdan beats Gatrie by such a margin that it makes up for the 3.5 earlygame chapters Gatrie has. It's a 1-2 AS gap at most assuming a good amount of KW access for both, and Gatrie wins Atk and Def by sizable margins.

If anyone wants to oppose it they can, otherwise I'm moving Gatrie up.

[kirsche]

I have no opposition.

Also, I have no idea why there should be a tier gap between Mist and Rhys when they're quite close performance wise. If that involves moving Soren/Ilyana up with him, so be it.

[-Cynthia-]

I have no opposition.

Also, I have no idea why there should be a tier gap between Mist and Rhys when they're quite close performance wise. If that involves moving Soren/Ilyana up with him, so be it.

Eh, being a mounted healer is a pretty significant increase in performance in a game where most of our best units are mounted. After Mist promotes and before Physics show up Mist has a pretty clear advantage in the fact that our units don't have to hamper their movements in order to get healed. And when Physics show up Mist has the advantage of not having to use them all the time, unlike Rhys. She provides better supports, has better offense(doubling), and is more durable, all Rhys has is some earlygame chapters and mostly superflous staff rank.

Also, moving Soren/Ilyana/Rhys up would mean moving half of Middle up, which would be weird.

[kirsche]

Eh, being a mounted healer is a pretty significant increase in performance in a game where most of our best units are mounted. After Mist promotes and before Physics show up Mist has a pretty clear advantage in the fact that our units don't have to hamper their movements in order to get healed. And when Physics show up Mist has the advantage of not having to use them all the time, unlike Rhys. She provides better supports, has better offense(doubling), and is more durable, all Rhys has is some earlygame chapters and mostly superflous staff rank.

@Bold: When was it decided that Mist promotes again?
@Italics: When was it decided that Rhys has to use them ALL the time? Pallys have canto to move back sometimes and 7 mov units don't move their full mov every single time and 6 mov units have the same mobility as Rhys does, so they're not outrunning him. With your logic of saying Rhys is never in range of doing anything, neither is Reyson. Sorry, but, it doesn't work like that.

Supports are a minor lead, at best. Nowhere near for a tier lead.

Soren doubles and so does Ilyana occasionally. Ilyana has the same def as Mist but has more HP. Not to mention she has access to an earth support. Lol@MIst being more durable than Ilyana.

Remember that earlygame healing is more important than lategame healing due to a much weaker team in comparison to enemies. Not to mention he's the ONLY healer at that point (Excluding the chapters which Mist and Rhys share taht Rhys beats Mist on, which is quite a few, really.) When Mist starts pulling off wins, we also have Soren/Ilyana/Tormod to heal, and there's Rhys too. Mist's healing utility lategame is nowhere near as important or useful as Rhys' earlygame victories.

Also, moving Soren/Ilyana/Rhys up would mean moving half of Middle up, which would be weird.

Tiers are made to seperate better characters from worse characters, not to make the order of the people in it look nice, otherwise Titania would be in Top with Oscar/Kieran/Jill because otherwise we just have a tier with one unit in it comapred to the rest which have ~10 people in it.

[-Cynthia-]

@Bold: When was it decided that Mist promotes again?

Good question, but it's before Physics arrive at any rate.

@Italics: When was it decided that Rhys has to use them ALL the time? Pallys have canto to move back sometimes and 7 mov units don't move their full mov every single time and 6 mov units have the same mobility as Rhys does, so they're not outrunning him. With your logic of saying Rhys is never in range of doing anything, neither is Reyson. Sorry, but, it doesn't work like that.

I'm not saying that Rhys won't be able to heal all the time, but without Physics his range is very limited compared to Mist. If a Paladin has to Canto back to be healed by Rhys or can move forward and get healed by Mist she's doing a better job.

Supports are a minor lead, at best. Nowhere near for a tier lead.

It's a pretty big difference though. Eliminating Rolf, Mia, Ulki due to being not likely to be in play, Mist and Rhys both have a Titania support in which Mist matches Mov better and gives better bonuses. She also has a Mordy support which gives full atk/def and matches Mov, a Jill support which offers full Def and matches Mov, and a Boyd support which gives full Atk. Rhys has Kieran which has a 3 Mov gap and provides pretty poor bonuses, it's a bigger support gap than most here.

Soren doubles and so does Ilyana occasionally. Ilyana has the same def as Mist but has more HP. Not to mention she has access to an earth support. Lol@MIst being more durable than Ilyana.

I said she was more durable than Rhys, the unit you're comparing her to here. I also don't know what you mean exactly by Ilyana having the same def but more HP, since you didn't offer any possible levels or supports.

Remember that earlygame healing is more important than lategame healing due to a much weaker team in comparison to enemies. Not to mention he's the ONLY healer at that point (Excluding the chapters which Mist and Rhys share taht Rhys beats Mist on, which is quite a few, really.) When Mist starts pulling off wins, we also have Soren/Ilyana/Tormod to heal, and there's Rhys too. Mist's healing utility lategame is nowhere near as important or useful as Rhys' earlygame victories.

Rhys never really beats Mist by much, the only difference being that he heals a few more HP which stops mattering after Mist gets D staves(like 1 chapter). Healing is less useful lategame, but Mist is beating Rhys for quite a while, and Rhys also suffers from healing being less useful lategame since his combat is pretty bad.

Tiers are made to seperate better characters from worse characters, not to make the order of the people in it look nice, otherwise Titania would be in Top with Oscar/Kieran/Jill because otherwise we just have a tier with one unit in it comapred to the rest which have ~10 people in it.

It's very subjective what consititutes a tier difference between units, there really isn't any criteria for how much better one unit has to be over another to be a tier above, it's much more difficult than a direct comparison.

Edited by -Cynthia-, 26 August 2009 - 04:02 PM.

[Ether]

I believe people said Mist would be promoting somewhere during 17.

[-Cynthia-]

I believe people said Mist would be promoting somewhere during 17.

That's probably when she hits 20/1, but there discussion of when it was more efficient to Seal Mist earlier.

[uzy5o]

Chapter 16 would be a good time. That level requires you to charge ahead to get the chests before the thieves run off with the loot. Chapter 15 is the desert chapter.

[kirsche]

Good question, but it's before Physics arrive at any rate.

If what Ether said is true, chapter 17, then no, no it's not. Btw, do pallys take an extra mov penalty through teh swamp? I can't remember.

I'm not saying that Rhys won't be able to heal all the time, but without Physics his range is very limited compared to Mist. If a Paladin has to Canto back to be healed by Rhys or can move forward and get healed by Mist she's doing a better job.

Still, if Rhys can't do much without hurting the team much, then I see no reason for reyson to stay as high as he is.

It's a pretty big difference though. Eliminating Rolf, Mia, Ulki due to being not likely to be in play, Mist and Rhys both have a Titania support in which Mist matches Mov better and gives better bonuses. She also has a Mordy support which gives full atk/def and matches Mov, a Jill support which offers full Def and matches Mov, and a Boyd support which gives full Atk. Rhys has Kieran which has a 3 Mov gap and provides pretty poor bonuses, it's a bigger support gap than most here.

Doesn't matter if the difference is big. A support win never should warrant a tier gap because it's a minor boost to the rest of the team.

I said she was more durable than Rhys, the unit you're comparing her to here. I also don't know what you mean exactly by Ilyana having the same def but more HP, since you didn't offer any possible levels or supports.

Rhys should be in the same tier as Soren/Ilyana too. And I also think they should move up.

Also, I overestimated Ilyana's def a bit there, but Mist only has a 1 Def lead over Mist at the same level as each other and Ilyana still has the Zihark support anyway.

Rhys never really beats Mist by much, the only difference being that he heals a few more HP which stops mattering after Mist gets D staves(like 1 chapter). Healing is less useful lategame, but Mist is beating Rhys for quite a while, and Rhys also suffers from healing being less useful lategame since his combat is pretty bad.

He's 2RKO'ing, sue him. In comparison, Level 20/3 Mist with a forged steel sword is missing out on a lot of ORKO's. And since the sonic sword has limited uses and is also fought over by other sword users, really, they actually tie in offence outside of sonic sword/runesword usage.

That's probably when she hits 20/1, but there discussion of when it was more efficient to Seal Mist earlier.

Oh god, more sealing talk. Remember: focusing resources on one unit is bad when comparing two.

[Reikken]

A support win never should warrant a tier gap because it's a minor boost to the rest of the team.

~2 atk and 2 def for two units is none too minor.

Anyway, w1n supports, a horse (not just mounted healer; mounted period), defense, and wtfraep (albeit limited) in mag swords I think is enough for quite a sizeable gap.

[Candlejack]

I'm fully aware of the fact that everything on a horse save Mist PWNS in this game, but why is Makalov High Tier exactly?

And we should've kept Titania in Seinfeld Tier: it's so good its funny.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm fully aware of the fact that everything on a horse save Mist PWNS in this game, but why is Makalov High Tier exactly?

And we should've kept Titania in Seinfeld Tier: it's so good its funny.

Makalov isn't very impressive at base, but after some levels (BEXP helps) and the KW, he becomes very powerful, especially post promotion. He has offense/durability on par with Kieran and Oscar.

Was that the joke? I didn't get it so I just renamed the tier.

Moving Gatrie above Devdan, if someone wants to argue against this later be my guest.

[Dat Nick]

All I have to say on the whole flier thing is that actual utility on 12 and 13 is kind of overblown: On C12 both fliers at this point have crappy durability and there's no point in flying out to whack the ravens if you DON'T have good durability so it's really nothing special. On C13 it's kind of "meh" because it's a rather bow heavy chapter.

kind of questioning how much of a deal the swamp is, fine with the rest of it

[Narga_Rocks]

All I have to say on the whole flier thing is that actual utility on 12 and 13 is kind of overblown: On C12 both fliers at this point have crappy durability and there's no point in flying out to whack the ravens if you DON'T have good durability so it's really nothing special.

In reference to the C12 thing, to whom is it better to give the laguzguard than a flier that can go out there and meet things? Helps a lot on the durability front.