FE9 Tier list v3

[Rodykitty]

We may be saying the same thing in general, but I am being very specific about my word choice for a reason. If Mia is deployed, and Mia is the best with X, she gets it. End of story.

And I never said she doesn't, at least when it comes to comparisons, as long as other characters that have a similar opportunity cost have it as well. At the same time.

If the story continues, we have a problem. Why do we have a problem? Allow me to illustrate with a formula:

Z = X/Y

Let X be the number of intelligent/optimal/efficient ways to do something, and let Y be the number of retarded/inefficient ways to do something. It does not take a large leap of logic to realize that Z is infinitely close to zero. Therefore, whenever someone suggests something that's inefficient in an efficiency tier list, this poster objects immediately.

Using the vast majority of the cast is technically inefficient, and defeats the whole point in tiering them, but we tier them anyway because we want to know how they compare.

The way to acknowledge this is by dispensing of useless words like "favoritism", and instead looking at things like opportunity cost. In my opinion.

[Interceptor]

And I never said she doesn't, at least when it comes to comparisons, as long as other characters that have a similar opportunity cost have it as well. At the same time.

There is no point to putting Wrath on non-Mias when doing a Mia comparison, except to measure the cost of putting it exclusively on Mia.

Using the vast majority of the cast is technically inefficient, and defeats the whole point in tiering them, but we tier them anyway because we want to know how they compare.

This is backwards. We use them because we want to know how to tier them, because it's pretty much impossible to gauge a unit's effect on efficiency without actually seeing what happens. This tiny little distinction is what seperates an efficiency tier list from an optimal playthrough list (which would presumably only include the best team). Seeing how inefficient a unit is does not defeat the purpose of tiering, it is, in fact, the way to tier them in the first place.

[Rodykitty]

There is no point to putting Wrath on non-Mias when doing a Mia comparison, except to measure the cost of putting it exclusively on Mia.

This is true for a Mia comparison, but there are people that could try downplay some characters getting wrath because Mia makes good use of it, even if Mia isn't part of a comparison.

This is backwards. We use them because we want to know how to tier them, because it's pretty much impossible to gauge a unit's effect on efficiency without actually seeing what happens. This tiny little distinction is what seperates an efficiency tier list from an optimal playthrough list (which would presumably only include the best team). Seeing how inefficient a unit is does not defeat the purpose of tiering, it is, in fact, the way to tier them in the first place.

I don't see how what I said is backwards compared to this. My response to the above quote is because I don't believe characters should be punished just because it can be seen as a dumb player choosing them over other characters, or denying that they can make use of something a higher tier normally makes use of (because, really, this isn't going to lower said higher tier on the tier list, only help the other character in comparison to those near him). Edited September 25, 2009 by Alucart

[Interceptor]

This is true for a Mia comparison, but there are people that could try downplay some characters getting wrath because Mia makes good use of it, even if Mia isn't part of a comparison.

Then it's the job of people who are paying attention to point out that FE9 Mia is not really a great unit. When Mia is being tiered herself, she obviously has to be assumed to be deployed, and the cost of Mia!Wrath is the cost of putting Wrath on Mia. But when another unit is being compared -- say we're looking at Oscar, for example -- the cost of Mia!Wrath is the cost of putting Wrath on Mia and the cost of deploying Mia.

It's pretty striaghtforward to see here that Mia!Wrath costs more in the Oscar comparison if Mia is a bad unit, than if Mia is a good unit. Therefore, I'd say that Oscar or another unit certainly has a shot at getting Wrath, aka it's worthwhile to see how they'd do with it.

Now, I'm not saying that using Mia is free in her own comparison (a bad unit obviously will drag down the team, which is why using Fiona in FE10 is just asking for trouble), but that it's a necessary evil in order to do the comparison in the first place.

I don't see how what I said is backwards compared to this. My response to the above quote is because I don't believe characters should be punished just because it can be seen as a dumb player choosing them over other characters, or denying that they can make use of something a higher tier normally makes use of (because, really, this isn't going to lower said higher tier on the tier list, only help the other character in comparison to those near him).

You said that using inefficient characters defeats the purpose of tiering. That much is pretty striaghtforward. I don't agree, I think it's backwards. If you over-ruled yourself later, which appears to be the case, I won't argue, since that's my position to begin with.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Looks like a clear win for Mia to me. Nice to see her out of the lows.

Yeah, so smash's statement is shown to be false. Quelle Surprise.

Anyways to Narga, I think the point here is that a tier list should see how each unit can be used efficiently in a team rather than just trying to find who the best team is. If you're just trying to find the perfect team, the list would be no bigger than there is available unit slots.

Giving Mia stuff isn't trying to build the best team possible out of the best units possible. It's the idea that we want to distribute resources to create the best team out of whatever members we've chosen. aka used efficiently in a team, like you said. I'm not saying every team must have Haar w/ 2-3 wing and 3-6 crown; Titania w/ 1-E wing; Mia w/ Vantage, Cancel, Adept, critforge, Ike support; Gatrie w/ crown; Janaff w/ 3-5 energy drop; Ulki w/ bexp + Tear + wrath + Janaff support. The team doesn't have to have all of them, it could only have one. I'm just saying, in the even that one of the units is chosen, they should all get it. Well, Ulki w/ bexp is a little hard to justify, as is Janaff w/ energy drop, but the rest are pretty easy.

I acknowledge that when certain units aren't there the lower units can get some things.

Basically the RD list assumes that the top tiers are always in play, when we have no reason to think that because we can't force the player him or herself. Basically, the list punishes anyone in anything below upper mid for being below upper mid. We can't just assume high tiers are in play any more than lower tiers. It's more likely, but it doesn't mean always. Example.

I'm not sure it does assume that the tops are always in play. Well, Ike should be assumed, and frankly so should Haar for part 3. Ditto Reyson, and Volug on the DB. It would just be odd otherwise. But the rest may or may not be there.

Mia does put the best use to Adept, but she's not always in play. What if she's not in play? Your list is basically assuming it goes to no one. Oscar could and Nephenee could. If they are argued against Mia, then it's a definite. But otherwise, I don't have to assume Mia's in play.

But the problem is that the whole list is relative. I'm not seeing how it changes anything. Neph and Oscar are near each other and basically compete on the list. Neph > Oscar, and Neph w/ adept > Oscar w/ adept. I'm not quite seeing how it matters what I say about Mia and adept when that statement holds true. Give an example where it actually matters.

Oh, and when they are argued against Mia, you may as well compare Mia w/out adept v. Oscar w/ adept, just to give Oscar a prayer. Otherwise, he doesn't have a prayer. Basically, Mia with a handicap still wins.

Example from the DS board. Maric puts the first seal to best use as he can basically instantly become one of the best units on your team. However, we also assume what to do with it when he's not in play. Thus others who can put the first seal to good use are weighed getting it as well, as it's an advantage they have over the rest of the cast. I don't punish them for needing to take the seal from Maric. They are still lower than Maric due to when he uses it he is far better, but again I can't just assume the player is using him every playthrough.

It's as silly as saying someone's stealing exp really.

Okay, fine, but what does that actually change on the RD list? You have to assume a lot of units aren't in play before Rhys is getting an early crown, for example. I'd say that's too much. If it was just Gatrie and Haar, and Rhys was third string for two crowns, I'd say Rhys has a good chance of getting it because if either Gats or Haar isn't in play that means doritos is gone and caramilk gets a turn. You have to assume like 5 or so units aren't being played before Rhys gets that without a massive negative.

I know this is actually agreeing with you guys, but I wanted to find a way to acknowledge Mia's particular strengths without it resulting in resource arguments.

The way to acknowledge this is by dispensing of useless words like "favoritism", and instead looking at things like opportunity cost. In my opinion.

Yeah, I said something like that too. Favouritism gets tossed around frequently to excuse (sometimes extremely) sub-optimal distribution of resources (in any group of units, even one that only has one high tier and the rest in bottom, there is a few good ways and multiple bad ways, and sometimes for some items there is a great way). The idea being you can't do something since it would be "favouritism" and "unfair" to other units, despite it being best for the team as a whole.

Looking at opportunity cost properly will avoid that.

Oh, and to all:

unit A, unit B, resource X, resource Y

assume, for any y and a specific x

B > A

AX > BX

AX > BY

AX > BXY

Okay, so then I'd have to argue that A > B, since we should be seeing not just what units do with nothing, but what they do with stuff.

However, when they are in midtier and unit C is in high tier and

CX + A >> CY + AX >> C + AX

then that should be taken into account. Sometimes C isn't deployed, at which point A > B, but sometimes C is deployed, at which point the team as a whole does better with C getting X rather than A, and there is nothing else you can give C such that giving X to A doesn't make the team worse on the whole.

So how do you adjudicate this?

A > B sometimes, but B > A the other times.

You have to have some way of weighing how much better B is than A when A can't get it, and how much better A is than B when A gets it, then determine how much weight to put on both situations.

say

A - B = -5

AX - BXY = 4

If we put equal weight on both possibilities, then -5 + 4 = -1 and B > A.

If we say A can get it 80% of the time, then

-5(.2) + 4(.8) = 2.2 and A > B.

So without a ruling on what to do here I can't really say which unit is better. It's also situational, since depending on various factors maybe A > B or B > A, so I can't say what I'd choose without adding more specific information to the comparison.

[Dat Nick]

I don't even know what is generally assumed on Mia in FE10 since I hate that game so I'm staying out of that subject.

Can we get back to discussing the correct game, please?

EDIT: Wow Vincent is slow

He only just NOW caught onto the Sears tower sig?

Edited September 25, 2009 by Germany

[Interceptor]

I don't even know what is generally assumed on Mia in FE10 since I hate that game so I'm staying out of that subject.

The discussion is FE9 Mia. FE10 Mia is just an easy way to make a point about the difference between:

1) Being a bad unit that is best with resource X, and

2) Being a good unit that is best with resource X.

Narga put it in game-neutral terms. Read his post. I don't know any good FE9 analogies offhand. Ike with Aether? It's been too long for me.

[Narga_Rocks]

Can we get back to discussing the correct game, please?

We were discussing both, kinda. And Ether made a good post:

Okay,so let's see if Geoffrey really has all that much of a lead.I'll do a comparison in chapter 26,with Mia at 20/12(13 at chapter 11,and one level each chapter since,she could probably be higher) vs. Base Geoffrey,since he can't do anything in 25.For supports,Mia has A Rhys B Ilyana.

Defensively first,Mia has 37/16/74 Hp/Def/Avo,while Geoffrey has 43/21/50

So it's 6 Hp and 5 Def vs. 24 Avo and VantageBlicking,(she also has a 2 res lead)

As for that,Mia has 20% chance with Silver,30% with a forge,and 50% with a killing edge.

For now I'll call it even,24 Avo is a big lead,and she blicks a good amount of the enemies that swing at her,but geoff has a good concrete lead,so a tie is good.

Offensively,Geoff misses doubling 15/44 of the initial enemies,so 1/3 that she stomps him against,heck,the Brave sword SM doubles him.

Now for attack values,

Mia

KE:32 Att/56 Crit

Silver:36 Att/26 Crit

Geoff:

KL:28 Att/38 Crit

Silver:33 Att/ 8 Crit

KB:27 Att/38 crit

So Geoffrey needs to use a Silvah lance to beat Mia's damage with a killing Edge,and even with killers he is nowhere near her proc rate.

So Mia wins offense by a landslide.

If Mia > Geoff when both exist,then i see no hope for him.

Also,let's not forget Wrath.

In case anyone missed it.

kinda makes you wonder what this:

wtf, geof roflstomps her, this shouldn't even be a debate

mia is one of the worst units on the team for a loooooong time. Her durability is garbage and her offense isn't much better and she has no 2-range (screw the SS).

Geof is really good in the few chapters he exists in. He has hueg durability and if he has any issues at all doubling it goes away really fast (lolparagon, lol55spdgrowth). I guess his att is rather bleh, but it should be moar than Mia anyway, and he has a horse and actual 1-2 range.

has to do with reality.

And gives evidence to this:

making general statements with nothing to back it up and acting like you've proven a point?

EDIT: Wow Vincent is slow

He only just NOW caught onto the Sears tower sig?

It was a great sig! Now I'll have to make a topic on fftf or something to get the word out about awesome responses and one-liners by people like Interceptor and Red Fox.

That retard comment should never be forgotten.

I wonder if anyone would contribute to a list by posting one-liners that they enjoyed.

[Dat Nick]

Well, I can't even think of anybody else who would even REMOTELY want Wrath without Vantage to go with it, as you'd be facing death chances way too often. Not if you're a general, but it's way too inconvenient to get a general to half HP in the first place.

So yeah, I want an answer to that question first. Who else wants Wrath besides Mia?

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I can't even think of anybody else who would even REMOTELY want Wrath without Vantage to go with it, as you'd be facing death chances way too often. Not if you're a general, but it's way too inconvenient to get a general to half HP in the first place.

So yeah, I want an answer to that question first. Who else wants Wrath besides Mia?

Nobody, really. When Mia is fielded, she gets it. You can go and give it to someone else when she isn't fielded, and unlike in RD it's a lot more reasonable to give someone else wrath instead of someone else adept/Ike.

[Dat Nick]

Oh, Rolf might have some use for it as one attack will put him in kill margin and he desperately needs more offense. You have to shield him, but you should already be doing that anyway. Just a thought.

I mean it's totally not worth it if we ARE fielding Mia...

Anyway, now that we're all in agreement that Mia getting Wrath really isn't an issue, I say get on with it and move her above Geoffrey already. Upper Mid would need more realistic figures (Mia at 13 when Zihark joins is not a realistic figure) but it's certainly not impossible. Either way I can't see her moving above Zihark, at best just in the same tier as him.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Germany

[Ether]

Oh, Rolf might have some use for it as one attack will put him in kill margin and he desperately needs more offense. You have to shield him, but you should already be doing that anyway. Just a thought.

I mean it's totally not worth it if we ARE fielding Mia...

Anyway, now that we're all in agreement that Mia getting Wrath really isn't an issue, I say get on with it and move her above Geoffrey already. Upper Mid would need more realistic figures (Mia at 13 when Zihark joins is not a realistic figure) but it's certainly not impossible. Either way I can't see her moving above Zihark, at best just in the same tier as him.

As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, Rolf might have some use for it as one attack will put him in kill margin and he desperately needs more offense. You have to shield him, but you should already be doing that anyway. Just a thought.

I mean it's totally not worth it if we ARE fielding Mia...

Anyway, now that we're all in agreement that Mia getting Wrath really isn't an issue, I say get on with it and move her above Geoffrey already. Upper Mid would need more realistic figures (Mia at 13 when Zihark joins is not a realistic figure) but it's certainly not impossible. Either way I can't see her moving above Zihark, at best just in the same tier as him.

I think supports are what save Zihark from being in mid. Not sure, but it's that earth that he gives out and means 20 avo even with B, B.

Of course, vantage adept is inferior to vantage wrath and needs 2HKOing to even be close, but she doesn't get it until chapter 19 and Zihark has CC before then, and BC or BCC at that point. Of course, the question of how good an extra 10 avo is also comes into question. Also, don't people say Brom/Muarim for Zihark? That means he only has a C for 5 avo until Mia gets wrath and now he has BC for (edit: 17) avo. Considering her luck lead and 1 or 2 point speed lead, he's not exactly impressing me with an extra 5 avo before she gets wrath. Then vantage wrath easily reduces the hit rates she faces to near Z's unless Z starts pulling 0s everywhere.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

Well fuck me sideways, Mia might actually have a case for >Zihark.

[Sol Hiryu]

The only advantage that Geoffrey have in that comparison is 9 Move and the ability for 1-2 range, something Mia has no answer for. I'd like to see some stats to see how they do against enemies, especially since Geoffrey will be meeting more of them than Mia will in their first shared chapter since it's a huge open map.

And I just had a small, irrelevant thought. Mia is definitely the best candidate for Wrath, since she can use it the most once it appears, but then it's no longer possible to do a Wrath/Resolve Ike for an easy Ashnard kill. Mia using Wrath for 10 chapters > Ike using it for 2ish, but considering that I've seen people state before that a Wrath/Resolve Ike was better than Aether!Ike...

Also, since we're on the topic of contributions to efficiency...I'd like to bring up Rolf > Elincia. Is 3 chapters of being a mediocre flying healer really so much better than what Rolf does from Chapter 9 and onward?

Edited September 25, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Florete]

Let's not jump the gun too fast here. If Mia was always regarded among the game's worst characters, how is it that she now might be seeing Upper Mid status? Seeing huge jumps like this makes me feel uneasy.

[Interceptor]

As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

What's "fair share"? Is there some Communist guideline that is being used for BEXP distribution?

Also: Upper Mid? Ehhhh, that's quite leap, kids, better than all of Soren/Ilyana/Rhys. Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath, and while she's the best with them, they are not free by any measure. Putting her > Zihark is another leap: he's got his problems, but it's easier to get him into fighting shape if I remember correctly.

[Ether]

Let's not jump the gun too fast here. If Mia was always regarded among the game's worst characters, how is it that she now might be seeing Upper Mid status? Seeing huge jumps like this makes me feel uneasy.

She was regarded as one of the worst characters in the "let's cram negative utility down her throat for the whole game even though it's uncalled for so she can't get anywhere" era.

[Dat Nick]

If Mia was always regarded among the game's worst characters

Think it's possible we were wrong? Mia only really has a rough earlygame. Once she bypasses that, she's actually better than Zihark, as those figures vs Z proved. Once she gets Wrath she's a monster.

I believe Kirshce even said once that Lance Users stop flooding the game after C9.

Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath

...huh?

Where'd the special weapon come from?

Edited September 25, 2009 by Germany

[Narga_Rocks]

As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

What's "fair share"? Is there some Communist guideline that is being used for BEXP distribution?

Also: Upper Mid? Ehhhh, that's quite leap, kids, better than all of Soren/Ilyana/Rhys. Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath, and while she's the best with them, they are not free by any measure. Putting her > Zihark is another leap: he's got his problems, but it's easier to get him into fighting shape if I remember correctly.

That's why they should settle for Mia > Geoffrey and then leave it for now. Well, first they'd have to convince -Cynthia- of that much. More numbers, like, 3 enemies from each chapter they share or something.

Oh, and the fair share of bexp seems a little communist, but there is how much good the extra bexp would be on the other units. You'd really have to push Rolf back to join Bastian to justify denying Mia bexp. Plus, if she's being tiered I see no reason not to give some bexp to her to make her more usable. Focusing on a small team is all well and good, but I don't think small team means 4 or 5, so giving her some bexp to be part of that team considering she's being deployed and isn't that bad doesn't seem so bad.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

The only advantage that Geoffrey have in that comparison is 9 Move and the ability for 1-2 range, something Mia has no answer for. I'd like to see some stats to see how they do against enemies, especially since Geoffrey will be meeting more of them than Mia will in their first shared chapter since it's a huge open map.

Heck, even 1-2 range isn't a clear lead anymore, Why? The sonic sword, and eventually the rune sword. Take a level 20/9 Mia, she has 23 Atk with the Sonic sword, as well as 76 Crit with wrath activated. Let's check out an enemy she'd want to have this sword to fight against in chapter 26:

1x Warrior lv 10 short axe: 50 hp, 33 Avo, 13 def, 8 res, 7 cev

Basically, she need 1 crit to finish this guy off. so that's a 90.39% chance of killing this guy. In comparison, Geoffrey with a max MT and Crit forged javelin has 29 Atk + 17 Crit. So that's a 19% chance of killing the enemy. Better 1-2 range? Lolno. And when the Runesword comes along, this lead will be even bigger.

I don't want my post falling under the radar, people.

Oh yeah, and this is how well she does with a mag-based sword. Get her a melee sword and the figures are even better.

Also, since we're on the topic of contributions to efficiency...I'd like to bring up Rolf > Elincia. Is 3 chapters of being a mediocre flying healer really so much better than what Rolf does from Chapter 9 and onward?

Possibly, remember that she is, like, the best healer in said 4 chapters (+1 mov and flight over Mist), and that Rofl is nowhere near the best fighter and that fighting itself is generally replaceable and I'm willing to see Elincia > Rofl.

Let's not jump the gun too fast here. If Mia was always regarded among the game's worst characters, how is it that she now might be seeing Upper Mid status? Seeing huge jumps like this makes me feel uneasy.

Just because it's a huge jump doesn't make it any less valid, previous placements =/= an argument against rising/falling. It's like saying Oscar can never be low tier because he was in top, an extreme example, yes, but it proves my point (I think).

[Interceptor]

Where'd the special weapon come from?

Uhh, it comes from Stefan since she sort of needs the VK to get a 100% crit rate.

[Florete]

If Mia was always regarded among the game's worst characters

Think it's possible we were wrong? Mia only really has a rough earlygame. Once she bypasses that, she's actually better than Zihark, as those figures vs Z proved. Once she gets Wrath she's a monster.

It's always possible they were wrong, but exactly how wrong and for how long is what I'm questioning. When did FE9 tiers show up, and was Mia always that low? If she was, and it's been a long time, I find it hard to believe that so many people were so wrong for such a long time.

I suppose that could've been in the communist era of FE debating where no one got any resources because "someone else could have used it lol," though, and we have gotten out of that for the most part.

Just because it's a huge jump doesn't make it any less valid, previous placements =/= an argument against rising/falling. It's like saying Oscar can never be low tier because he was in top, an extreme example, yes, but it proves my point (I think).

That's not what I was saying at all.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Ether]

As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

What's "fair share"? Is there some Communist guideline that is being used for BEXP distribution?

Also: Upper Mid? Ehhhh, that's quite leap, kids, better than all of Soren/Ilyana/Rhys. Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath, and while she's the best with them, they are not free by any measure. Putting her > Zihark is another leap: he's got his problems, but it's easier to get him into fighting shape if I remember correctly.

No,it's an amount that doesn't hurt the team and is enough to get her going.

And what special weapons?She might need a forge earlygame,but she does fine later with regular weapons.

As for Z being easier to fix,they start out about the same when he joins,she's a but better but he get's some BEXP to even them up.After that they're growths are massively similar,he only wins Str/Def by 5 each,so he's not getting them much faster than her.

As for his supports,he gets more Avo than her,but that only starts realling taking effect after Muarim joins,and by then Mia is nearing B supports,which help her beat his natural str lead.

The thing is,vantage/wrath gives her better durability than him lategame,and she also has earlygame contrinutions.Maybe he needs to drop to mid,but I don't see what makes him better.

[Sol Hiryu]

I honestly think that was GameFAQs-era quite a few years ago, but I'm not sure as to the exact arguments that were made back then. All I knew was that a lot of the board was bugfuck bonkers.

EDIT:

As for Z being easier to fix,they start out about the same when he joins,she's a but better but he get's some BEXP to even them up.After that they're growths are massively similar,he only wins Str/Def by 5 each,so he's not getting them much faster than her.

I really don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it can essentially be said that when Zihark appears, he's basically at Mia's stats...only 3 levels lower and having needed no resources once he joins. If you give him enough BEXP too, he'll have leads over Mia in the time Wrath doesn't exist.

Also, to kirsche, I didn't see that post. Still, the SS is already squabbled over enough and I'm not sure how she would do with a RS. But I suppose it's an answer if it is any.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Sol Hiryu