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FE9 Tier list v3


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As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

What's "fair share"? Is there some Communist guideline that is being used for BEXP distribution?

Also: Upper Mid? Ehhhh, that's quite leap, kids, better than all of Soren/Ilyana/Rhys. Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath, and while she's the best with them, they are not free by any measure. Putting her > Zihark is another leap: he's got his problems, but it's easier to get him into fighting shape if I remember correctly.

No,it's an amount that doesn't hurt the team and is enough to get her going.

And what special weapons?She might need a forge earlygame,but she does fine later with regular weapons.

As for Z being easier to fix,they start out about the same when he joins,she's a but better but he get's some BEXP to even them up.After that they're growths are massively similar,he only wins Str/Def by 5 each,so he's not getting them much faster than her.

As for his supports,he gets more Avo than her,but that only starts realling taking effect after Muarim joins,and by then Mia is nearing B supports,which help her beat his natural str lead.

The thing is,vantage/wrath gives her better durability than him lategame,and she also has earlygame contrinutions.Maybe he needs to drop to mid,but I don't see what makes him better.

The special weapon is vague katti, but she only needs it for 100%. If she has 80% or so with a killer, and isn't 2HKOd, then it stands to reason she'd need 2 hits to KO her most of the time when she's in wrath mode, or you could get her there with a vulnerary. As such, 100% isn't always necessary. 80% chance of blicking means her chance to be hit is cut down to .2 x hit rate. So 30 true becomes 6% true, and her chance to die is .36%.

The reason I see to prevent upper mid-ness, is the fact that you have to keep her away from range after the sonic sword breaks, or if Mist has it, or whatever, otherwise she still has those 30s or whatever and a ~9% chance of death, which is way too much.

Of course, she isn't always in wrath mode. So it's also partly a safety net. But I don't think I'd let her equip vague katti unless she's in wrath, otherwise it's kind of a waste.

Edited by Narga_Rocks
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As for Mia at 13 when Z joins,it was shown that Mia taking 411 BEXP gets her to level 10(and this is her fair share before Z joins)So she has chapters 7,8,9,and possibly 10 to grow 3 levels.Easy.

What's "fair share"? Is there some Communist guideline that is being used for BEXP distribution?

Also: Upper Mid? Ehhhh, that's quite leap, kids, better than all of Soren/Ilyana/Rhys. Mia's needing a special wepaon and Wrath, and while she's the best with them, they are not free by any measure. Putting her > Zihark is another leap: he's got his problems, but it's easier to get him into fighting shape if I remember correctly.

No,it's an amount that doesn't hurt the team and is enough to get her going.

And what special weapons?She might need a forge earlygame,but she does fine later with regular weapons.

As for Z being easier to fix,they start out about the same when he joins,she's a but better but he get's some BEXP to even them up.After that they're growths are massively similar,he only wins Str/Def by 5 each,so he's not getting them much faster than her.

As for his supports,he gets more Avo than her,but that only starts realling taking effect after Muarim joins,and by then Mia is nearing B supports,which help her beat his natural str lead.

The thing is,vantage/wrath gives her better durability than him lategame,and she also has earlygame contrinutions.Maybe he needs to drop to mid,but I don't see what makes him better.

The special weapon is vague katti, but she only needs it for 100%. If she has 80% or so with a killer, and isn't 2HKOd, then it stands to reason she'd need 2 hits to KO her most of the time when she's in wrath mode, or you could get her there with a vulnerary. As such, 100% isn't always necessary. 80% chance of blicking means her chance to be hit is cut down to .2 x hit rate. So 30 true becomes 6% true, and her chance to die is .36%.

The reason I see to prevent upper mid-ness, is the fact that you have to keep her away from range after the sonic sword breaks, or if Mist has it, or whatever, otherwise she still has those 30s or whatever and a ~9% chance of death, which is way too much.

Of course, she isn't always in wrath mode. So it's also partly a safety net. But I don't think I'd let her equip vague katti unless she's in wrath, otherwise it's kind of a waste.

Although Z doesn't want to be anywhere near ranged enemies either,and as you said,Wrath is basically a berserk mode when she's low on HP,as well as a safety net.

Either way,I still see her over Zihark.If Z needs to move down to Mid,that's fine,but I don't see him over her.

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I really don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it can essentially be said that when Zihark appears, he's basically at Mia's stats...only 3 levels lower and having needed no resources once he joins. If you give him enough BEXP too, he'll have leads over Mia in the time Wrath doesn't exist.

Level 13 Mia (knight band equipped when leveling up with BEXP): 24.5 hp, 10 str, 2.1 mag, 13.15 skl, 17.2 spd, 9.15 lck, 8.6 def, 3.75 res

Level 10 Zihark: 25 hp, 10 str, 1 mag, 13 skl, 15 spd, 6 lck, 7 def, 0 res

And then in chapter 12 Zihark gets bexp, too.

Of course, level 13 is only:

26.65 hp, 11.35 str, 14.5 skill, 16.8 spd, 7.2 lck, 7.9 def, 0.6 res.

Of course, a 2 hp lead and 1 str lead and similar spd and less/same luck isn't exactly making me think he's so superior at jointime.

And I forgot Mia's supports and she has fire. Just 4 chapters. 8, 9, 10, 11. In chapter 12, when you can give Z bexp, she could already have a +2, so he's got a 2hp lead and a 1 str deficit.

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I honestly think that was GameFAQs-era quite a few years ago, but I'm not sure as to the exact arguments that were made back then. All I knew was that a lot of the board was bugfuck bonkers.

Indeed, wretched hive of scum and villany. I'd say 80% of the arguments around Mia have been carried forward to present day, though. Blah blah favoritism, being awesome for three chapters > sucking forever, Zihark is more evasive and easier to train, every map in the game is full of ballistas, siege mages and javelins, etc. Some got left behind in the wormhole: I haven't seen anyone argue yet that Mia can't get Wrath because Oscar might want to use it, or that she can't use the VK because her 100% OHKO is inferior to some other sword-user having a ~50% crit.

Ahh, that was good times. Smash, Paperblade, Snowy, Vykan, h2. I need a drink.

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I honestly think that was GameFAQs-era quite a few years ago, but I'm not sure as to the exact arguments that were made back then. All I knew was that a lot of the board was bugfuck bonkers.

Indeed, wretched hive of scum and villany. I'd say 80% of the arguments around Mia have been carried forward to present day, though. Blah blah favoritism, being awesome for three chapters > sucking forever, Zihark is more evasive and easier to train, every map in the game is full of ballistas, siege mages and javelins, etc. Some got left behind in the wormhole: I haven't seen anyone argue yet that Mia can't get Wrath because Oscar might want to use it, or that she can't use the VK because her 100% OHKO is inferior to some other sword-user having a ~50% crit.

Ahh, that was good times. Smash, Paperblade, Snowy, Vykan, h2. I need a drink.

I have a theory that smash would attempt to argue Mia lower no matter what her position was and the competition. Like, if she was the bottom of the bottom, he'd say she should be in her own tier. I think my theory is wrong, since his topic actually gave her an 8 in RD and his gamefaqs tier list actually has her slightly above Oscar, but really it may just be because he knows some things he can't get away with.

oh, and "honourable mention" in my sig about your last sentence.

Edited by Narga_Rocks
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This BEXP deal makes me wonder about Soren, Tormod and Nephenee...I mean if we aren't being commie about it, I'd say these two would have a nice time getting BEXP bumped a bit to catch up. Tormod might not catch up instantly, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly leap up to upper mid here.

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This BEXP deal makes me wonder about Soren, Tormod and Nephenee...I mean if we aren't being commie about it, I'd say these two would have a nice time getting BEXP bumped a bit to catch up. Tormod might not catch up instantly, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly leap up to upper mid here.

If we aren't being commie about it, wouldn't Tormod go down? I don't think he's so great to warrant bexp any more than Mia is. Oscar/Boyd/Ike/etc will just get twice as much as normal, everyone else gets nothing, and you have a 20/1 Oscar/Boyd for chapter 14 or something.

Hence, commie, and everyone gets some.

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I'm willing to ditch commie for BEXP, but ONLY slightly. For instance, yes, epic characters like Oscar/Kieran/Jill probably don't need as much so that could probably go to the total of weaker characters and we already settled that giving it to characters like Ti and Mordy is a waste, but cutting off, say, Soren from BEXP just so Rhys can get some is just blatant favoritism.

Edited by Germany
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Some comparisons, starting with chapter 26:

20/11 Mia with a forged steel sword +Wrath, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 18 HP, 35 Atk, 28 AS, 73 Avo, 15 Def, 11 Res, 76 Crit

20/12 Geoffrey with a forged silver lance, 'C' Calill: 44 HP, 39.5 Atk, 20 AS, 54 Avo, 21 Def, 9 Res, 9 Crit

On the offensive side of things, Mia's ORKO'ing more often than not, really (Look at her crit) and often faces >80% chances of getting hit at all. I'd say this >> Geoffrey's concrete durability leads. Plus, Geoffrey can't double 15 enemies on the map, which Mia has very clear leads against. Should mobility wipe this out? Well, I don't think so, really. It's only +2 move, it's not like Rafiel vs Tibarn move differences (FE10, obviosuly). So yeah, add this to Mia's support bonuses lead, and I'd say she beats Geoffrey here.

Assumming some band usage (HP band for Mia):

20/12 Mia with a forged steel sword +Wrath, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 19 HP, 35 Atk, 29 AS, 75 Avo, 15 Def, 11 Res, 76 Crit

20/14 Geoffrey with a forged silver lance, 'B' Calill: 45 HP, 41.5 Atk, 21 AS, 60 Avo, 22 Def, 10 Res, 9 Crit

Geoffrey once again doesn't double 15 enemies and Mia, once again, is laughing at the chance of her getting hit. It's mostly how large you weigh 2 mov, really.

Assuming Mia also got some str band usage as well as HP band usage:

20/13 Mia with a forged steel sword +Wrath, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 19 HP, 36 Atk, 29 AS, 75 Avo, 15 Def, 11 Res, 76 Crit

20/16 Geoffrey with a forged silver sword, 'A' Calill: 46 HP, 43.5 Atk, 22 AS, 64 Avo, 23 Def, 11 Res, 10 Crit

20 enemies Geoff can't double here, so you'd really have to argue Geoff's Mobility as an epic win to win this one.

bdusyvgoaygyyfuivvibvaai

Long story short: Mia doubles more enemies and gives out more support bonuses than Geoffrey which should be compared to Geoff's 2 mov lead and canto. Oh, and Mia has an availability lead and didn't use up teh rarest forge (A silver forge) and didn't get a crit forge to help her even more, so tehse numbers are actually quite generous to Geoffrey in teh first place. Mia > Geoffrey plz.

That's not what I was saying at all.

Oh? I read it as: "A large jump doesn't seem right IMO." If that isn't what you meant, what was?

but cutting off, say, Soren from BEXP just so Rhys can get some is just blatant favoritism.

Not necessarily, If Rhys makes better use of it, then no, he doesn't.

Edited by kirsche
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Oh? I read it as: "A large jump doesn't seem right IMO." If that isn't what you meant, what was?

I meant it as "Were so many people so wrong for such a long stretch of time?" If that is the case, by all means, send her flying, it just seems strange that it wouldn't have been noticed for so long.

Edited by Red Fox of Fire
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If we aren't being commie about it, wouldn't Tormod go down? I don't think he's so great to warrant bexp any more than Mia is. Oscar/Boyd/Ike/etc will just get twice as much as normal, everyone else gets nothing, and you have a 20/1 Oscar/Boyd for chapter 14 or something.

A massive BEXP dump in Chapter 16 is why Tormod is where he is? Wut. That's a tough sell.

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Oh? I read it as: "A large jump doesn't seem right IMO." If that isn't what you meant, what was?

I meant it as "Were so many people so wrong for such a long stretch of time?" If that is the case, by all means, send her flying, it just seems strange that it wouldn't have been noticed for so lnog.

Well,the RD tier list was the first one to really think this way,and that only started a month ago or so.The reason why Mia wasn't looked at until now was that Rolf was the center of attention for a good chink of time.Once Mia was mentioned,it became "Wait,if we do this then...!"

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Oh? I read it as: "A large jump doesn't seem right IMO." If that isn't what you meant, what was?

I meant it as "Were so many people so wrong for such a long stretch of time?" If that is the case, by all means, send her flying, it just seems strange that it wouldn't have been noticed for so long.

Statistical evidence points to people being wrong.

It's not that farfetched though, I mean many more people thought the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean were one giant ocean for a few thousand years but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't.

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20/11 Mia with a forged steel sword +Wrath, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 18 HP, 35 Atk, 28 AS, 73 Avo, 15 Def, 11 Res, 76 Crit

Holy typos, batman. She's not getting beat that badly in HP, I think you meant to say 38-39 HP here vs. Geoff's 44-46.

Statistical evidence points to people being wrong.

Tunnel-vision is not uncommon in tiering with dozens of units. Also, Titania stands as proof that the tectonic forces of ranking philosophy can do anything.

Cynthia's gonna be PO'ed when she drops in and sees all this BS.

Edited by Interceptor
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If we aren't being commie about it, wouldn't Tormod go down? I don't think he's so great to warrant bexp any more than Mia is. Oscar/Boyd/Ike/etc will just get twice as much as normal, everyone else gets nothing, and you have a 20/1 Oscar/Boyd for chapter 14 or something.

A massive BEXP dump in Chapter 16 is why Tormod is where he is? Wut. That's a tough sell.

I have no idea. I wasn't reading the PoR forum like I was reading stuff on Radiant Dawn before joining this site. But honestly,

20hp, 2 str, 10 mag, 9 skl, 9 spd, 8 lck, 4 def, and 9 res isn't doing him any favours. I'm not sure how much bexp he needs to get good, or if he can be used effectively without it, but assuming no bexp for either him or Mia I don't see any reason for him to be > Mia. Even with bexp for him, it means some for her, and we've seen what she can do with that, so it's not like I'm saying bexp for all simply because they exist. He's only lower mid, though, so maybe they aren't considering it. I don't know. It's not like there is much good beneath him, just Ranulf and Taur (aside from Mia), so maybe that's Tormod's spot without bexp.

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This is the kind of stuff I'm against when I said that I'm iffy on being soviet with BEXP rules, cutting off Tormod from BEXP for no good reason is just silly. It's the characters who start bad who need BEXP more than anybody else and cutting him off from it so Mia can be better faster is blatant favoritism.

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Never mind. I have seen many tier lists for fighting games, and the serious ones (based on facts rather than some snot-nosed tween's gut instincts) do not make the entirely silly assumption that players are equally skilled. The assumption that they make is that the players know what they are doing. Many tiering decisions in fighting game lists hinge on particular mechanics, be they universal or character specific. The point that I am getting at, here, is that the likely result of an A vs. B match-up can change depending on player knowledge/mastery, and therefore cannot be represented properly on a monolithic list. How could it? You'd need an entry for every character/skill level combination.

I saw this a few pages ago, and I have to disagree with your assertion, if only because the general premise for tiering the SSBM (and SSBB) characters is that the players are equally skilled at a relatively high level. This implies that they know the ins and outs of individual matchups. In fact, I challenge you to find a high level competitive player who doesn't have extensive knowledge of matchups between high tier characters.

Although, I think this is more of a semantics issue here, because I do not see the distinction between "equally skilled" and "know what they are doing."

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I saw this a few pages ago, and I have to disagree with your assertion, if only because the general premise for tiering the SSBM (and SSBB) characters is that the players are equally skilled at a relatively high level. This implies that they know the ins and outs of individual matchups. In fact, I challenge you to find a high level competitive player who doesn't have extensive knowledge of matchups between high tier characters.

What you are saying here is what I was trying to say (fighting game tier lists are for high-level play), so I probably just worded my point poorly.

Although, I think this is more of a semantics issue here, because I do not see the distinction between "equally skilled" and "know what they are doing."

When I said "equally skilled" I meant "of equal skill level", if that helps clarify.

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This is the kind of stuff I'm against when I said that I'm iffy on being soviet with BEXP rules, cutting off Tormod from BEXP for no good reason is just silly. It's the characters who start bad who need BEXP more than anybody else and cutting him off from it so Mia can be better faster is blatant favoritism.

That wasn't my point.

Some people were feeling iffy on giving Mia bexp, and I'm saying that a fair number of units are assumed to have bexp to get where they are. Or I think they are, anyway. Since Mia performs rather well with a reasonable amount of bexp (not asking for too much, here) I'm thinking there is no reason to refuse her enough bexp to reach level 13 in chapter 11. Or at least level 12.

I'm also saying:

Mia w/ bexp > Tormod w/ same bexp, Mia w/out bexp > Tormod w/out bexp, therefore Mia > Tormod.

Not suggesting to refuse Tormod exp. It's good to make a unit we choose to use usable, and when it doesn't hurt overall, and arguably makes for a stronger team, I say if T is deployed he gets some. If it takes 1/8th to be usable, go ahead. If it takes 1/3rd, probably not. Haven't analyzed Tormod's circumstances, but I think he does okay with just 1/8th, not sure.

And being Soviet with out bexp is basically giving 8 units precisely 1/8th of our bexp each at all points, or some such. Which is similar to what we are doing (like with Rolf), except in the case of Mordy/Lethe/Titania in the early game, of course.

Anyway, I'm surprised nobody has called my/Int's way "Capitalist Fire Emblem", or something like that, considering we use "Soviet Fire Emblem" to mean that all resources are distrubuted equally without attention to opportunity cost or maximizing the output from the distribution of said resources. (Any Russians reading that are disturbed/offended by our use of the word "Soviet" in such a disparaging way?)

Some people have said things like we are punishing the low tiers further simply for being low, and words like that, which is similar to "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer", which is sometimes an effect of capitalism, but nobody has actually called it Capitalist Fire Emblem, or any other ist.

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Seems more Darwinian to me, as there being poor implies they exist. Half the time it just seems top tiers are measured after being given resources, then lower tiers are punished for being low on top of it. It can't be poor if it's dead and eaten/buried.

Anyways as for Tormod, uhh...I was just implying how it would effect them in the list ;;>> No way in hell would I imply Tormod's better than Mia with this sort of thinking in mind.

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I think with all of this discussion, we're starting to get off track of how we're actually tiering these units. I would love to see a set of tiering guidelines here for reference. Efficiency, availability, use of resources...how do we factor them in now? A standard would be nice, I would think.

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Seems more Darwinian to me, as there being poor implies they exist. Half the time it just seems top tiers are measured after being given resources, then lower tiers are punished for being low on top of it. It can't be poor if it's dead and eaten/buried.

Survival of the fittest? Darwinian Fire Emblem? I don't know. Doesn't have the greatest ring to it. Well, I guess it flows well enough. Don't think I agree with the implication, but then again I doubt any of the Soviet Fire Emblem promoters would agree with the description we've given their style, either.

Anyway, the lower tiers exist just fine. But when you are looking at Gatrie's performance, he's in play. May as well give him his crown. Besides, it's like sticking it to IS. They said, let's give him a 60% speed growth then cap it at 23 speed and make most of the enemies in HM part 3 have >= 20 speed. Sure, they threw us a bone with the crown, but with Soviet Fire Emblem he's not getting it often enough for it to matter.

I admit, though, that sometimes I'll assume a fair number of high tiers when looking at a low tier unit's performance. Like Astrid, for one. If your entire team sucks, she isn't very helpful, and maybe then Lyre might actually stand a chance against her. But assuming at least one or two highs and some mids and upper mids, suddenly Astrid is much more useful than Lyre simply because of not taking counters and being able to actually do something on every player phase rather than lose some to grassing. The only way for Lyre to be higher is to give more weight to a group of the worst of the worst than a mixed group or a group of highs/tops. Since the number of units and possible teams just going by pure numbers would imply that more often than not you'll have some good units, I'd say that easily makes Astrid > Lyre.

Anyways as for Tormod, uhh...I was just implying how it would effect them in the list ;;>> No way in hell would I imply Tormod's better than Mia with this sort of thinking in mind.

Well, since commie style gives him 1/x of our bexp where x is the number of units being fielded, would you say he has a case for taking more than 1/x of our bexp and thus possibly being good enough to go to mid or higher?

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Well to make a point, Tormod does have the advantage that when he arrives, any band is available to him, so you could say he's your most customizable mage considering his low level, the now available BEXP (As Soren doesn't have BEXP available for a while, Illyana has many problems, Calill's high level and has knives), and the bands. You could give him an extra kick in speed (any speed band), more durability (Paladin Band), or just have him hit really damn hard+more staff range if you really give a fuck (Mage Band). It's minor boosts, but it'll be boosts he has compared to other mages. On top of this, he has celerity to keep up with the pallies. Well, better than most foot soldiers.

I have no idea what to make of it, but I see no reason it shouldn't put him above Taur. All he does is walk around with shitty move with shitty offense. He could go Resolve, but not only does this not help all the time (Endgame it's worthless for him, granted this is probably the only time), it takes forever to get him there due to his durability+possible dodges. Even worse, leveling just makes him tougher, which just makes him even harder to get to resolve range, otherwise only getting +1 str to make his levels matter. 1 damage, sweet. It almost like letting him kill things only leads to make his own job harder in hte long run.

EDIT: Maybe it's just tier 3 I got a beef with. If crowns didn't exist, he'd be forced to deal with it, but c'est la vie.

As for your question on Tormod, yes I would. If the idea with the mages is to prepromote them, he could easily just take BEXP with a band and easily be whipping their ass in some form, most notably in movement thanks to Celerity.

Edited by France
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Well to make a point, Tormod does have the advantage that when he arrives, any band is available to him, so you could say he's your most customizable mage considering his low level, the now available BEXP (As Soren doesn't have BEXP available for a while, Illyana has many problems, Calill's high level and has knives), and the bands. You could give him an extra kick in speed (any speed band), more durability (Paladin Band), or just have him hit really damn hard+more staff range if you really give a fuck (Mage Band). It's minor boosts, but it'll be boosts he has compared to other mages. On top of this, he has celerity to keep up with the pallies. Well, better than most foot soldiers.

I have no idea what to make of it, but I see no reason it shouldn't put him above Taur. All he does is walk around with shitty move with shitty offense. He could go Resolve, but not only does this not help all the time (Endgame it's worthless for him, granted this is probably the only time), it takes forever to get him there due to his durability+possible dodges. Even worse, leveling just makes him tougher, which just makes him even harder to get to resolve range, otherwise only getting +1 str to make his levels matter. 1 damage, sweet. It almost like letting him kill things only leads to make his own job harder in hte long run.

Tormod's already above Tauroneo. Since I never wanted to actually push Tormod down, there's no reason to defend his position against me. I just brought him up as evidence that denying Mia some bexp while giving some to others is pulling a double standard, because without bexp I can't see how Tormod > Tauroneo, though maybe I'm just not seeing it.

However, since I think giving Tormod a decent amount of bexp is not only perfectly reasonable but also wise if you are going to be using him, I'm perfectly happy with Tormod > Tauroneo.

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