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FE9 Tier list v3


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Well Gatrie is the same+never doubling ever. He has earlygame, but that's basically saying all he has is utility. Tormod could just be boosted up and immediately be devestating his ass. Offense, staffs, move, fuck Gatrie.

Well, how much bexp can Gats have when he reappears? Since all bexp levels can be done with Knight Ward, what's he like in chapter 14 with 1/x of our bexp? I think you'll need to give more numbers than just saying that if you want Tormod > Gatrie.

And with the crown and 23 speed cap and 60% growth, I was talking earlier about RD Gatrie. So I hope your discussion of Gatrie in this game is not in response to my statements about Gatrie in a different one.

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Well, how much bexp can Gats have when he reappears? Since all bexp levels can be done with Knight Ward, what's he like in chapter 14 with 1/x of our bexp? I think you'll need to give more numbers than just saying that if you want Tormod > Gatrie.

Well, he has a 5 base speed and 55% technical speed growth with the KW. He'd need 8 levels worth to reach Tormod's base, of which his base level of 9 and his join time would pose a problem I would think. Tormod joins later, 2 levels lower. Tormod might not come sooner, but he is in a way cheaper. To get him doubling something other than knights (which he can do just at base with magic, neither of which Gatrie can do at base I should note, already he has better offense) in chapter 17, I would need to slap a speed band on him and give him...4-8 levels. So less-same amount of levels (but due to being lower level, he is still cheaper), I get far better offense with 7 move doing magic damage.

As for durability? Well clearly Gatrie is better due at direct combat. Has the benefit of ranged combat however, due to lances. However, I'm pretty sure all we got are javelins at this time. He would need to be promoted to 2 round common enemies, of which Tormod's doing with magic with the simple amount I gave him under the same circumstances, only Tormod's damage is more static, since enemy defense fluxuates more than resistance. Gat's not doubling even after BEXP dump at this time, with higher cost, and even at melee it wouldn't matter since Tormod's doing far better at range. This in turn would render Gatrie's defensive leads worthless, since Gatrie's offense is nothing short of a waste in comparison. Letting him soak up attacks and counter is worse than letting someone else kill in the same situation. Tormod at least can reduce people to single digit HP, for others to kill without fear of counter. Then factor he always has slayer effect on something, and is always able to counter anything that comes his way without needing to be traded out.

As for supports, I'll put it this way. Tormod's supports want him. Gatrie supports either garbage, have the most ridiculous move difference on him, or are stocked up already with better affinities. Tormod is actually part of a square with Devden, Calill and *gasp* Nephenee! He has a bit of a move lead on them, but not as bad as some of Gat's.

Basically with Tormod, we'd get better sesults for far cheaper, as Gatrie needs a lot just to still have worse offense than Tormod. Tormod taking less of said resources utterly shitstomps him basically forever. With the same, Tormod blasts his ass out of the goddamn water. When he promotes, it's not even funny anymore.

And with the crown and 23 speed cap and 60% growth, I was talking earlier about RD Gatrie. So I hope your discussion of Gatrie in this game is not in response to my statements about Gatrie in a different one.

It wasn't, I just put in the edit in my post because I have a venomous hate for the GM in RD.

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Well, I can't even think of anybody else who would even REMOTELY want Wrath without Vantage to go with it, as you'd be facing death chances way too often. Not if you're a general, but it's way too inconvenient to get a general to half HP in the first place.

So yeah, I want an answer to that question first. Who else wants Wrath besides Mia?

Anyone with lots of durability from supports can use wrath effectively, even better than Mia, actually.

You just take some hits when the supporter's not around, and then move supports in and you get ppl that don't die.

It's a lot better than Mia where her vantage does absolutely nothing vs 2-range enemies (while for other ppl, even if they don't counter either at least they'll have moar avoid), and she may not even OHKO some enemies with a crit unless she uses a silver sword, which means her crit is nowhere near reliable, which is bad because if she doesn't crit (or the crit doesn't OHKO) the enemy counters against her mediocre avo/def and lolhalfHP.

It's mostly limited to units who either have an earth support, or support someone with earth. Zihark, Muarim, and Tanith (you'll need to get rid of reinforce though) are all good candidates. If Oscar is getting str screwed he'll take wrath easily as well, or if you just want him to rapestomp with a hand axe (since otherwise he's not ORKOing anything other than, liek, sages, with a hand axe).

Alternately we could just give Geof some favoritism. Liek 500 BEXP with a knight ward gives him 2 levels (maybe 3?). SO he'd still win anyway.

also, wtf @ the idea of mia > Zihark. I especially liked whoever made that comparison with Mia given several hundred BEXP and Zihark absolutely nothing. Not biased at all, right?

What's closer to reality is that Mia is going to be about the same level as Zihark, since any BEXP you throw on Mia can be given to Zihark too.

So their concrete durability will be about the same, but Zihark has more offense because he has a little more str, and adept might actually do something once in awhile while vantage does pretty much nothing (unless you're expecting Mia to OHKO something). He's not pwning her before promotion, but he's still better.

He isn't forced to wait around for Muarim to support. He can just take Brom and Ilyana. And if Mia is assumed to get Rhys, he better get at LEAST one of them, and both of them certainly not out of the question. Or, he could replace Muarim with Ilyana, since it's only slightly later (B Muarim is finished after ch 21 or something, B Ilyana after ch 19) for 5 more avoid.

Which means by the time the wrath scroll appears, he's got A Brom/B Ilyana, or gets it the next chapter or whatever (19 doesn't have much fighting anyway). That's 25 avoid already (and 2 def/1 att). At liek 20/3 it's ~82 avo with 14-15 def and mid-high teen HP.

Lance enemies are lucky to have 30 displayed hit on him even with WTA, which is pretty laughable as only the wyverns/knights really have enough att to even remotely scare him. Halbs may not even 2HKO at half HP with their joke hit. Archers fail even harder; they're like a 4HKO. Fighters have 0 hit on him, lol. Sages are really the only enemy scaring him (not like Mia likes them any better, since her res is only slightly higher, and neither are countering them).

On the other hand, Mia at 20/3 with A Rhys/B Ilyana has ~59 avo with ~13 def and slightly less HP than Zihark.

This means enemies have more than 20 extra hit on Mia (and has less wiggle room when it comes to getting 3HKO'd or something). If Mia was facing 50 displayed hit (50.5 real), then Zihark is facing 27 hit (14.85 real). So to make things simple, let's say these enemies have 50 real hit on her, and 15 real on Zihark.

This means for Mia with wrath to be as durable as Zihark with wrath, she would need at least 70 crit. Of course that's attainable for Mia.

Unfortunately she loses against liek everything else. First things first...

- The lower the hit goes, the more Zihark wins.

As an example, let's say that Mia is instead facing 45 displayed hit (40.95 real). This means Zihark would face 22 hit (9.9 real). This means for Mia to "tie" durability, she would need 75-76 crit. Same gap in their hit, but the required crit increased.

Take avoid even lower. Like 30 displayed for Mia (18.3 real), so that's 7 for Zihark (1.05 real). Mia would need ~94 crit to tie durability. If the hit is low enough where Zihark faces 0 hit, then MIa would need 100 crit to tie, and that's impossible.

The hiher the hit goes, the more Mia wins (or rather, catches up). Unfortunately almost everything else has less hit on them than the lance enemies.

- When Vantage doesn't help, Mia gets roflstomped.

This is obvious, since Zihark's avoid is still working for him. As an example, against anything with 2-range, Mia's vantage doesn't do anything.

Or, if the enemy is tanky enough where the crit doesn't OHKO, then it effectively did nothing too. Knights are obvious as they're too durable for them to OHKO even with a crit. Wyverns are possible, and once tigers start showing up they might be too tanky to OHKO with a crit.

Mia not OHKOing with a crit is especially possible before silver swords are buyable, as iron blades have only 9 mt and her str is not particularly good even after Rhys support.

Also, Vantage doesn't give her an advantage on player phase, which means Mia has to OHKO on the first attack or she eats a counter. Zihark doesn't care if he gets countered because he has a billion avoid anyway.

- Zihark isn't lolterrible without wrath.

Zihark is perfectly fine without wrath, once past his meh early-midgame and he promotes. He has lots of durability and his offense isn't too bad (adept is better than nothing). This means we can field Zihark, and still field a unit who could benefit from wrath. He's not uber, but his entire usefulness is not reliant on a single skill that multiple units can use.

What do we get if Mia doesn't get wrath?

Also, Zihark is more likely to be next to his supporters. Brom is lolinvincible so he goes wherever, and Ilyana has shade so that helps (Mia and ZIhark support Ilyana anyway). And Muarim is pretty much unkillable too. Mia has Rhys who has liek the game's worst durability, so it's possible that Rhys won't be able to follow Mia at times.

Edited by pen15
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I don't think we've really considered how very easy it is to favor Geoffrey. Due to Paragon, BEXPing Geoffrey doesn't really have much of an opportunity cost and there's no reason not to give him the KW either. I'm not seeing a whole lot of validity in the direct Geoffrey vs. Mia comparisons so far, since we seem willing to dump resources onto Mia, but not do the same for Geoffrey(hence his doubling issues). Why aren't we allowing Geoffrey KW access kirsche? Why are we acting as if a Silver Lance is even important at all as a resource?

Why are we discussing moving Tormod over Tauroneo when he's already over Tauroneo?

And yeah, please don't discuss RD here, there's a whole forum for that.

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I don't think we've really considered how very easy it is to favor Geoffrey. Due to Paragon, BEXPing Geoffrey doesn't really have much of an opportunity cost and there's no reason not to give him the KW either. I'm not seeing a whole lot of validity in the direct Geoffrey vs. Mia comparisons so far, since we seem willing to dump resources onto Mia, but not do the same for Geoffrey(hence his doubling issues). Why aren't we allowing Geoffrey KW access kirsche? Why are we acting as if a Silver Lance is even important at all as a resource?

Why are we discussing moving Tormod over Tauroneo when he's already over Tauroneo?

And yeah, please don't discuss RD here, there's a whole forum for that.

Well, one thing to note is that when Mia gets BEXP bumped, she's helping us basically throughout the game. Geoffery is sort of like an Athos archtype in the sense you put it. Well, perhaps not quite Athos. Maybe more like Galzus, or FE6 Karel in a far more versatile class.

As for the Tor Taur deal, that was a misread on my part ;;>>

Edited by France
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Giffca/Tibarn/Naesala fit the Athos archetype.

Yes BEXPing Mia helps us the whole game, but Geoffrey's BEXP also costs half the amount of everyone else's. Mainly my issue is with KW usage, the opportunity cost for it at this point is really low(especially with BEXP involved), so his doubling issues can be easily non-existent. And if Geoffrey doubles he usually ORKOs, so now he's beating Mia across the board pretty much.

And even if Mia>Geoffrey, I'm not sure of whether this means Geoffrey should go down or Mia hould go up, rather ambiguous due to the large availability disparity. Frankly I think a comparison to other characters in Lower Mid would be more fitting.

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Anyone with lots of durability from supports can use wrath effectively, even better than Mia, actually.

Not when she pulls a higher % to KO.

You just take some hits when the supporter's not around, and then move supports in and you get ppl that don't die.

Which Mia could do on her own without supports, and only needs those supports when she needs them to 3HKO.

It's a lot better than Mia where her vantage does absolutely nothing vs 2-range enemies (while for other ppl, even if they don't counter either at least they'll have moar avoid), and she may not even OHKO some enemies with a crit unless she uses a silver sword, which means her crit is nowhere near reliable, which is bad because if she doesn't crit (or the crit doesn't OHKO) the enemy counters against her mediocre avo/def and lolhalfHP.

And she needs to face them why? Besides, if Mist isn't given the SS, then Mia with wrath can apply that, and Kirsche showed how that's viable.

It's mostly limited to units who either have an earth support, or support someone with earth. Zihark, Muarim, and Tanith (you'll need to get rid of reinforce though) are all good candidates. If Oscar is getting str screwed he'll take wrath easily as well, or if you just want him to rapestomp with a hand axe (since otherwise he's not ORKOing anything other than, liek, sages, with a hand axe).

You know, those strategies aren't going to get you someone that can go off on his/her own and destroy one range enemies like mad, and only Zihark will even approach her proc rate. And you really want to say that you can't give it to Mia because Oscar might be str screwed? Besides, aren't you the one that always whines about assuming the team is full of high tiers? Even if they were superior with wrath, which they aren't, they may not always be used. More importantly, wrath helps her on just about everything. What does wrath help them on? Some of them ORKO a bunch of things reliably, or can pull out forges to do the same. You are choosing to get a smaller advantage overall. If you deploy Mia, it makes sense to give her wrath since it helps on so many more enemies. To give the others wrath gets you something less reliable on the enemies with which they have issues than Mia would be, and instead of two characters destroying the other enemies you have one because Muarim/whoever isn't even putting wrath to use on those other enemies.

Alternately we could just give Geof some favoritism. Liek 500 BEXP with a knight ward gives him 2 levels (maybe 3?). SO he'd still win anyway.

I don't think you looked at those numbers very well.

also, wtf @ the idea of mia > Zihark. I especially liked whoever made that comparison with Mia given several hundred BEXP and Zihark absolutely nothing. Not biased at all, right?

You know, the issue with ignoring people, is you say stupid things like this:

What's closer to reality is that Mia is going to be about the same level as Zihark, since any BEXP you throw on Mia can be given to Zihark too.

So their concrete durability will be about the same, but Zihark has more offense because he has a little more str, and adept might actually do something once in awhile while vantage does pretty much nothing (unless you're expecting Mia to OHKO something). He's not pwning her before promotion, but he's still better.

Crunch numbers before typing stuff next time. I'm sure your parents told you to think before opening your mouth, the same applies here.

If you did the work yourself, you'd see. But of course, to expect you to use numbers to support an argument would be silly since if you try to use numbers you wouldn't be able to state incorrect information.

Let me save you some time:

I really don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it can essentially be said that when Zihark appears, he's basically at Mia's stats...only 3 levels lower and having needed no resources once he joins. If you give him enough BEXP too, he'll have leads over Mia in the time Wrath doesn't exist.

Level 13 Mia (knight band equipped when leveling up with BEXP): 24.5 hp, 10 str, 2.1 mag, 13.15 skl, 17.2 spd, 9.15 lck, 8.6 def, 3.75 res

Level 10 Zihark: 25 hp, 10 str, 1 mag, 13 skl, 15 spd, 6 lck, 7 def, 0 res

And then in chapter 12 Zihark gets bexp, too.

Of course, level 13 is only:

26.65 hp, 11.35 str, 14.5 skill, 16.8 spd, 7.2 lck, 7.9 def, 0.6 res.

Of course, a 2 hp lead and 1 str lead and similar spd and less/same luck isn't exactly making me think he's so superior at jointime.

And I forgot Mia's supports and she has fire. Just 4 chapters. 8, 9, 10, 11. In chapter 12, when you can give Z bexp, she could already have a +2, so he's got a 2hp lead and a 1 str deficit.

So yeah, he's "stronger" all right, when both are level 13. Oh, and since she'll be level 13 at the start of chapter 11, and he'll be only 10, she's better there, and has more time before he's recruited, so he's not going to reduce that 3 level lead until bexp, so bexp isn't giving him a level lead. Since his str growth is only .05 better than hers, he's also not going to pull away. Until his first support starts, he's stuck at the same str or less.

He isn't forced to wait around for Muarim to support. He can just take Brom and Ilyana. And if Mia is assumed to get Rhys, he better get at LEAST one of them, and both of them certainly not out of the question. Or, he could replace Muarim with Ilyana, since it's only slightly later (B Muarim is finished after ch 21 or something, B Ilyana after ch 19) for 5 more avoid.

Considering Muarim and Brom are always used against Ilyana in any comparisons with Soren when people try to give her the Zihark support, I'm thinking you can't have this two ways (aren't you one of them?).

Which means by the time the wrath scroll appears, he's got A Brom/B Ilyana, or gets it the next chapter or whatever (19 doesn't have much fighting anyway). That's 25 avoid already (and 2 def/1 att). At liek 20/3 it's ~82 avo with 14-15 def and mid-high teen HP.

So, I'm thinking chapter 11 doesn't count. So chapter 21. Mia gets two chapters of wrath, anyway. Also, he's got 1 +mt to throw against her 4 from AB Rhys/Ilyana, but really only needs it when that 4 mt is required to get the 3HKO.

Lance enemies are lucky to have 30 displayed hit on him even with WTA, which is pretty laughable as only the wyverns/knights really have enough att to even remotely scare him. Halbs may not even 2HKO at half HP with their joke hit. Archers fail even harder; they're like a 4HKO. Fighters have 0 hit on him, lol. Sages are really the only enemy scaring him (not like Mia likes them any better, since her res is only slightly higher, and neither are countering them).

On the other hand, Mia at 20/3 with A Rhys/B Ilyana has ~59 avo with ~13 def and slightly less HP than Zihark.

This means enemies have more than 20 extra hit on Mia (and has less wiggle room when it comes to getting 3HKO'd or something). If Mia was facing 50 displayed hit (50.5 real), then Zihark is facing 27 hit (14.85 real). So to make things simple, let's say these enemies have 50 real hit on her, and 15 real on Zihark.

This means for Mia with wrath to be as durable as Zihark with wrath, she would need at least 70 crit. Of course that's attainable for Mia.

Unfortunately she loses against liek everything else. First things first...

- The lower the hit goes, the more Zihark wins.

As an example, let's say that Mia is instead facing 45 displayed hit (40.95 real). This means Zihark would face 22 hit (9.9 real). This means for Mia to "tie" durability, she would need 75-76 crit. Same gap in their hit, but the required crit increased.

Take avoid even lower. Like 30 displayed for Mia (18.3 real), so that's 7 for Zihark (1.05 real). Mia would need ~94 crit to tie durability. If the hit is low enough where Zihark faces 0 hit, then MIa would need 100 crit to tie, and that's impossible.

The hiher the hit goes, the more Mia wins (or rather, catches up). Unfortunately almost everything else has less hit on them than the lance enemies.

Okay, so instead of getting healed once or twice a map, Mia gets healed 3 or 4 times. Big deal. Oh, and with Vague Katti 100 crit isn't unattainable. And not giving Vague Katti to a unit that can 100% crit with it is a waste of the Vague Katti's 25 uses.

- When Vantage doesn't help, Mia gets roflstomped.

This is obvious, since Zihark's avoid is still working for him. As an example, against anything with 2-range, Mia's vantage doesn't do anything.

At this point he wins by his avo lead, but neither should be getting attacked anyway since neither counters. Also, Mia having vantage alone makes her a better user of SS. She also happens to have a mag lead. More importantly, she's got a good shot at Wrath. Of course, Zihark can have wrath too, but don't forget that getting Z down into wrath range is turns in which his support partners are going without their support, and they don't like that. Mia isn't getting anything more than +1 def from her support, so getting her down to wrath range isn't hurting them since they still get to use the support.

Or, if the enemy is tanky enough where the crit doesn't OHKO, then it effectively did nothing too. Knights are obvious as they're too durable for them to OHKO even with a crit. Wyverns are possible, and once tigers start showing up they might be too tanky to OHKO with a crit.

Look, we aren't putting her into high or anything. She doesn't need to be able to own everything on the map. The fact that she can 3HKO the majority of a map is enough that she doesn't need to care since she need not meet these guys all the time. And Vague Katti having an extra 3 mt and her support possibilities means that there isn't much she doesn't 3HKO. And considering her crit rate without a +crit weapon is still pretty good, especially on low lck enemies like tigers, 18mt laguz slayer has something to say if you think she's not 3HKOing tigers.

Mia not OHKOing with a crit is especially possible before silver swords are buyable, as iron blades have only 9 mt and her str is not particularly good even after Rhys support.

You know it was shown that a steel forge (without crit) makes her quite durable. Also, vague katti. 25 kills. (compared to like 15 for other people, and many of whom could just as easily KO with a forge so they don't even need the vague katti)

Besides, Zihark may have a slight durability advantage at times, and a bigger one at others, but she'll win offence.

Also, Vantage doesn't give her an advantage on player phase, which means Mia has to OHKO on the first attack or she eats a counter. Zihark doesn't care if he gets countered because he has a billion avoid anyway.

How is that any different than enemy phase? Did you manage to get the straw you were attempting to grasp?

- Zihark isn't lolterrible without wrath.

Zihark is perfectly fine without wrath, once past his meh early-midgame and he promotes. He has lots of durability and his offense isn't too bad (adept is better than nothing). This means we can field Zihark, and still field a unit who could benefit from wrath. He's not uber, but his entire usefulness is not reliant on a single skill that multiple units can use.

Adept is all he has offensively on a no-wrath Mia. Then he has some durability. Forgive me if I'm not seeing a two tier gap here. Besides, you haven't shown any good reasons to not give her wrath.

What do we get if Mia doesn't get wrath?

But isn't that the entire point? If she's fielded, we have wrath, she needs it more and uses it better, others need it less and don't use it as well, it's basically a waste on most other units. In the end, we get a team with very badly distributed resources, and thus not worth mentioning. So why do you mention it? Right, Soviet Fire Emblem.

Also, Zihark is more likely to be next to his supporters. Brom is lolinvincible so he goes wherever, and Ilyana has shade so that helps (Mia and ZIhark support Ilyana anyway). And Muarim is pretty much unkillable too. Mia has Rhys who has liek the game's worst durability, so it's possible that Rhys won't be able to follow Mia at times.

Oh, goody, so in some areas Mia can go wherever we want and kill stuff, while Zihark is tethered to two units with less move than he has and Ilyana (who only gives Mia 1 mt, 1 def, 10 hit) is always nearby. Considering you were talking about Rhys's durability, Ilyana isn't so much better that she can take 3 or 4 enemies all the time. Sure, she can often take 2 when Rhys can only take 1, and she'll need less healing, but it's still a tether. Mia can either stay with them when it's beneficial to the team, or go off on her own KOing left and right when that's applicable. Mia has more freedom. When Zihark goes off on his own, he has slightly less avo than Mia and only a little more hp/def. Except he lacks vantage, and even without wrath she'll still pull respectable crit and have better overall durability.

Ooh, and she's got a shot at the brave sword. So does he, but with no Vantage it means it's an advantage for her. If she has wrath and 4HKOs with a brave, well then it seems to me she's now got an even better chance of not getting hit. On anything she has just 60% crit with a brave sword and wrath, she'll now have an 84% chance of KOing before it even attacks. If he has wrath it simply boosts his chance to KO somemthing when a killing edge would likely be just as effective considering he's not avoiding getting attacked on enemy phase anyway. Advantage her. It's not like the vague katti or wrath, she's not practically entitled to it, but it is an advantage she has over him.

And in all this, you ignore that while people are saying they think Mia > Zihark might be feasible, the main point was to get her higher. Like, above Geoffrey. Some want upper mid, and Zihark is as good as any unit to use in a comparison. By comparing how they perform when resources are distributed wisely, it allows people to see whether or not Mia might be worthy of upper mid. If you want to compare when resources are distributed unwisely, well, Mia v. Zihark isn't the only unit comparison for which we should apply bad resource management.

From this, it can be seen she's probably better at one range when she 3HKOs, he's probably better when she doesn't. He's also better at not becoming a pin cushion while getting attacked at 2 range, but since letting either get attacked at 2 range frequently enough for it to matter would likely be indicative of bad strategy, I'd have to say that her advantage with the SS accounts for that well enough. It's up to others to compare the magnitudes of the wins.

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On anything she has just 60% crit with a brave sword and wrath, she'll now have an 84% chance of KOing before it even attacks.

How would she have just 60%? Wrath gives 50, class gives 15, and 20/1 Mia's Skl (18.3) gives 9, so 74% before enemy Luck, and I'm seeing a max of like 6 crit evade on enemies she might be in the 3HKO range on (Bishops have more, but lol at them), so she'd normally have something like 70% crit, which would give her a 91% chance of killing anything with the Brave Sword before it attacks as long as she's in 4HKO range or better.

Lategame enemies get a bit more, but probably at about the same rate Mia grows more Skl herself.

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RIP FE9 tier List

Born October 17, 2005 to Mr. and Mrs. tier List

Died September 26, 2009 due to its bodily functions abruptly failing

Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince;

And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

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I don't think we've really considered how very easy it is to favor Geoffrey. Due to Paragon, BEXPing Geoffrey doesn't really have much of an opportunity cost and there's no reason not to give him the KW either. I'm not seeing a whole lot of validity in the direct Geoffrey vs. Mia comparisons so far, since we seem willing to dump resources onto Mia, but not do the same for Geoffrey(hence his doubling issues). Why aren't we allowing Geoffrey KW access kirsche? Why are we acting as if a Silver Lance is even important at all as a resource?

Why are we discussing moving Tormod over Tauroneo when he's already over Tauroneo?

And yeah, please don't discuss RD here, there's a whole forum for that.

Well,looking at it,he stated how he game a forged silver to Geoff while he gave a forged Steel to Mia.If Mia get's a forged Silver as well,than she wins Att again.As for leveling Geoff more,he still has less att/less crit/less hit/no Wrath,so he will lose offense even if he begins to double.He may actually pull off a durability lead,but with enough Avo to push enemy hit rather low,and Wrath as a safety net,she doesn't worry too much about durability.And all this time,Mia has still had chapters 7-25 where Geoff did nothing.

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On the off chance that anyone cares, I agree with Mia > Zihark. There isn't much of a reason to not give Mia Wrath when she is deployed, and Vantage + Wrath simply is too broken for Zihark to compare since the best he has to offer as an answer to that is Vantage + Adept, which is nowhere near as good.

Okay, so I'm totally not seeing how Calill > Tormod if we give Tormod some BEXP to get him going. He joins before chapter 16 at Lv7, so we can give him some BEXP and a band to go with it right away. If we got all possible BEXP this far (only counting turn- and clear-boni), we have around 3700 BEXP if we haven't spent any so far. If we're going Communist style and assume 8 units in use with him, he has the right to claim 462.5 BEXP. However, since this is not Communist Emblem and he benefits from it quite a bit, I'll simply give him 5 levels of BEXP, even though that's a little more than 462 BEXP - after all, why not use the BEXP to boost him now when it's still cheap? Also, as far as I know, Master Seals aren't exactly in high demand in this game, and promoting Tormod earlier >>> promoting him later, so let's give him one of those as well. Yeah, we could as well sell them, but what the heck, this game has a complete money overload. It's not like you'd need those 2,5k gold much.

Assuming he wore the Paladin Band while receiving the BEXP, we get:

Lv12/1 Tormod:

26.75 HP, 5.0 STR, 13.25 MAG, 13.0 SKL, 13.5 SPD, 9.75 LUK, 7.25 DEF, 13.25 RES

Elfire: 18.25 Atk, 115.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

That actually looks pretty usable to me. 18.25 Atk which doesn't get countered and targets RES isn't bad by any means, and with 13.5 AS, he should also have a shot at doubling various stuff (Soldiers have 9 to 10 SPD, but are weighed down by their Steel Lances / Javelins; he doubles the Knights, of course; he can't double the Myrmidons, but they won't double him either; he can double the SteelAxe!Fighters and has an about 75% chance to double them even if they aren't weighed down as their SPD is similar to the Soldiers'). Also, he gets staves, which are always nice to have. And celerity, which means he's got 8 MOV, which can keep up with our paladins and stuff perfectly fine.

Okay, so he's got 4 chapters before Calill joins. His combat is fine even though he's a little frail, but he's also got staves to do stuff if he doesn't want to attack, so I'll go with the average 1.5 levels per chapter and give Tormod 6 levels before Calill joins.

Lv12/7 Tormod, B Reyson, assuming some more Paladin Band:

30.05 HP, 6.2 STR, 15.95 MAG, 15.4 SKL, 16.5 SPD, 11.85 LUK, 8.75 DEF, 15.95 RES

Elfire: 22.95 Atk, 131.725 Hit, 7.7 Crt, 16.5 AS, 44.85 Avd

Lv--/6 Calill:

32.0 HP, 8.0 STR, 19.0 MAG, 18.0 SKL, 18.0 SPD, 16.0 LUK, 8.0 DEF, 17.0 RES

Elthunder: 26.0 Atk, 119.0 Hit, 19.0 Crt, 18.0 AS, 52.0 Avd

Yes, Calill is still better than Tormod in pretty much every stat. But not by very much; actually, it's only pretty small leads. She has two more HP, but Tormod has one more DEF, so that pretty much cancels out. Calill has more SKL, but Tormod has more Hit despite of that. The AS lead is only tiny, and Calill's Avd lead also isn't very big. The only really notable difference is that Calill does 3 more points of damage, actually.

But then there's the fact that Calill has those crappy knives instead of Tormod's awesome staves, and Tormod has Celerity while Calill only has lolNihil. From there on, not much will change; their growths are about the same, except that Calill will grow notably more DEF and Tormod more RES, but Tormod has a DEF lead and Calill a RES lead when they first meet each other, so that will likely just even out.

Yes, Tormod did consume some (not-so contested) resources to get this far, but he also has an availability lead over her and advantages that she doesn't have (Staves, +2 MOV). Even if for some reason this isn't enough for Tormod to rise above her, I'm certainly not seeing how this warrants a tier gap between them.

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On the off chance that anyone cares, I agree with Mia > Zihark. There isn't much of a reason to not give Mia Wrath when she is deployed, and Vantage + Wrath simply is too broken for Zihark to compare since the best he has to offer as an answer to that is Vantage + Adept, which is nowhere near as good.

Okay, so I'm totally not seeing how Calill > Tormod if we give Tormod some BEXP to get him going. He joins before chapter 16 at Lv7, so we can give him some BEXP and a band to go with it right away. If we got all possible BEXP this far (only counting turn- and clear-boni), we have around 3700 BEXP if we haven't spent any so far. If we're going Communist style and assume 8 units in use with him, he has the right to claim 462.5 BEXP. However, since this is not Communist Emblem and he benefits from it quite a bit, I'll simply give him 5 levels of BEXP, even though that's a little more than 462 BEXP - after all, why not use the BEXP to boost him now when it's still cheap? Also, as far as I know, Master Seals aren't exactly in high demand in this game, and promoting Tormod earlier >>> promoting him later, so let's give him one of those as well. Yeah, we could as well sell them, but what the heck, this game has a complete money overload. It's not like you'd need those 2,5k gold much.

Assuming he wore the Paladin Band while receiving the BEXP, we get:

Lv12/1 Tormod:

26.75 HP, 5.0 STR, 13.25 MAG, 13.0 SKL, 13.5 SPD, 9.75 LUK, 7.25 DEF, 13.25 RES

Elfire: 18.25 Atk, 115.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

That actually looks pretty usable to me. 18.25 Atk which doesn't get countered and targets RES isn't bad by any means, and with 13.5 AS, he should also have a shot at doubling various stuff (Soldiers have 9 to 10 SPD, but are weighed down by their Steel Lances / Javelins; he doubles the Knights, of course; he can't double the Myrmidons, but they won't double him either; he can double the SteelAxe!Fighters and has an about 75% chance to double them even if they aren't weighed down as their SPD is similar to the Soldiers'). Also, he gets staves, which are always nice to have. And celerity, which means he's got 8 MOV, which can keep up with our paladins and stuff perfectly fine.

Okay, so he's got 4 chapters before Calill joins. His combat is fine even though he's a little frail, but he's also got staves to do stuff if he doesn't want to attack, so I'll go with the average 1.5 levels per chapter and give Tormod 6 levels before Calill joins.

Lv12/7 Tormod, B Reyson, assuming some more Paladin Band:

30.05 HP, 6.2 STR, 15.95 MAG, 15.4 SKL, 16.5 SPD, 11.85 LUK, 8.75 DEF, 15.95 RES

Elfire: 22.95 Atk, 131.725 Hit, 7.7 Crt, 16.5 AS, 44.85 Avd

Lv--/6 Calill:

32.0 HP, 8.0 STR, 19.0 MAG, 18.0 SKL, 18.0 SPD, 16.0 LUK, 8.0 DEF, 17.0 RES

Elthunder: 26.0 Atk, 119.0 Hit, 19.0 Crt, 18.0 AS, 52.0 Avd

Yes, Calill is still better than Tormod in pretty much every stat. But not by very much; actually, it's only pretty small leads. She has two more HP, but Tormod has one more DEF, so that pretty much cancels out. Calill has more SKL, but Tormod has more Hit despite of that. The AS lead is only tiny, and Calill's Avd lead also isn't very big. The only really notable difference is that Calill does 3 more points of damage, actually.

But then there's the fact that Calill has those crappy knives instead of Tormod's awesome staves, and Tormod has Celerity while Calill only has lolNihil. From there on, not much will change; their growths are about the same, except that Calill will grow notably more DEF and Tormod more RES, but Tormod has a DEF lead and Calill a RES lead when they first meet each other, so that will likely just even out.

Yes, Tormod did consume some (not-so contested) resources to get this far, but he also has an availability lead over her and advantages that she doesn't have (Staves, +2 MOV). Even if for some reason this isn't enough for Tormod to rise above her, I'm certainly not seeing how this warrants a tier gap between them.

I guess this is a good a time as any to help validate Mia rising.

At 20/6(with supports/Knight band) she looks like this

34 Hp,14 Def,64 Avo

So durability wise,she is better,with leads in all stats except Res,as well as her new toy,Wrath.

Offensively,we have this.

KE: 29Mt/55Crt/155Hit

Steel:28Att/25Crt/155Hit

Steel Forge:33Att/34Crt/Some insane amount of hit,she probably wasn't missing before anyway.

The Def/Res gap cancels out her Att lead,but she still has a noticeable crit lead and Wrath.

Tormod has Staves,but against him she actually pulls an att lead even with Def/Res gap.

Add in the fact that she has had more playtime to be useful,Mia > Tormod/Calill

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On the off chance that anyone cares, I agree with Mia > Zihark. There isn't much of a reason to not give Mia Wrath when she is deployed, and Vantage + Wrath simply is too broken for Zihark to compare since the best he has to offer as an answer to that is Vantage + Adept, which is nowhere near as good.

How about... giving ZIhark the fucking wrath skill himself?

In fact, let's go over something. What kind of unit would want the vantage scroll in the first place? What unit in the game would appreciate vantage if they didn't get wrath to go along with it? Would... Soren want vantage? But Adept is not going to go off often enough to really improve his durability. What about someone like Stefan? Astra is even worse than adept. Haar? Like Soren, Cancel isn't going to go off often enoguh to matter. Every other unit in the game is not going to get a significant durability boost with vantage alone.

In other words, Vantage will likely be sitting in our inventory, as giving just vantage alone isn't going to significantly increase a unit's durability. The only real unit that will get a real durability boost with vantage alone is just Neph, as she already has wrath, but Neph may not always be used. In other words, whenever Neph isn't used, we pretty much have a vantage + wrath combo waiting to be dropped on a unit of our choice. As opposed to, giving Mia wrath and having Vantage just sitting in our convo unless we were also using Neph.

Imagine other units who could get a wrath + vantage combo, and since vantage isn't significant favoritism, it's basically the same favoritism as Mia getting just wrath. Think of all those units who will shoot up on the tier list because we're always assuming they're getting these skills. We may as well just bump everyone to mid tier and call it a day.

Or rather, everyone should stop acting like retards and stop assuming that Mia is always getting wrath.

And if Neph is assumed to always be used and take away the vantage scroll so we can't throw this wrath/vantage combo on someone, I want to know why other units like Zihark and Muarim are never assumed to get wrath.

Mia's wrath + Vantage is HEAVILY overrated anyway. I ran some calculations awhile back, when Snowy was the one fanboying over Mia rather than half the people on this site, on MIa's chances of dying against certain enemies even with wrath.

Okay, just for kicks. Let's say this is chapter 23, and there's a halberdier with a steel lance, a sage with Bolganone, a killer ballistae, and a cat laguz that all attack Mia on enemy phase, and she has wrath at the moment. The beorc are about level 3, and the cat is about level 10.

The halberdier has 22 att (23 after Mia's WTD), 99 hit (109), and 3 lck (reduces Mia's crit chance).

The sage has 22 att, 110 hit, and if Mia wants to try and SS this guy, 3 lck and 29 HP/15 res.

The ballistae has 20 att and 95 hit.

The cat has 26-27 att, 122-125 hit, and 40-42 HP, 16-17 def, 2-3 lck.

Mia, btw, has 75.7 crit. I'll round that to 76.

To make this simpler for me, I'll also round Mia's defensive stats to 18 HP, 14 def, 10 res, and 68 avo.

VS the halberdier...

Halberdier does 9 damage, and has 33.62 real hit.

Mia has 73 crit vs this guy.

27% chance that MIa doesn't crit x 33.62% chance that the enemy hits her = 9.08% chance that she gets hit.

vs the sage

Sage does 12 damage, and has 35.28 real hit. Mia can't OHKO it with SS (she only has 8.3 mag at 20/8), so it gets a hit in anyway. 35.28% chance that the enemy hits her.

vs the ballistae

6 damage, 15 real hit, as my other example showed.

vs the cat...

The cat does 12-13 damage, and has 57.68-63.02 real hit (I'll make it 60).

Mia has 73 crit vs this guy.

27% chance that Mia doesn't crit x 60% chance that the enemy hits her = 16.2% chance that she gets hit.

Now the problem here is that two hits from nearly every combination can kill her. Since I suck horribly at probability, I'll need to do this the long way by showing every combination possible where she lives, and then subtract that from 100% to find out her chances of dying, since if she's not living, she's obviously dying.

I'll depict the result by putting a H (hit, where enemy hits Mia) or M (miss, where Mia kills with crit or dodges) and then putting the probability of that situation happening next to it. The order the letters are arranged will correspond to a certain enemy; the first letter will be the halberdier, the second will be the sage, etc.

Situations where Mia lives

MMMM = 41.9%

MMMH = 8.10%

MMHM = 7.40%

MHMM = 22.8%

HMMM = 4.19%

HMHM = 0.739%

This comes out to ~85% chance of surviving. That means she has a 15% chance of dying from just 4 enemies. I don't know about you, but those are HORRIBLE odds for me. If I'm toying with death, I want my chances to be very low; at most 2 or 3%, since death is "I restart the chapter", which is a really bad thing.

Now there are a bunch of factors that I left out that makes it even worse for Mia.

- Mia is not always exactly at half HP. She may have 10 or 11 HP, not 18, for example, which means the sage and cat both OHKO her, and the halberdier/ballistae combination, which didn't kill her at 18 HP, now kills her.

- Rhys is not always in range due to horrible durability, and if that's the case, Mia no longer can OHKO the cat with a crit. Her chances of getting hit by the cat go from 16.2% to 60%.

- Mia getting attacked by just 4 enemies is pretty low, as half HP is almost an instant-provoke, and chances are more than 4 will attack her.

Mia's chances of dying are 15%, and are likely to be higher.

For anyone curious, I had Mia at 20/8.

BTW, for anyone curious, Zihark at the same level as ~90 avo with A Brom/B Ilyana. And ~38 HP, 16 def, 7-8 res.

The halb has an amazing 19 displayed hit on him (7.41 real). The sage has 20 (8.20). The ballista has 5 (0.55). The cat has 32-35 (20.80-24.85. Let's say ~23 average).

For quick reference, Mia's was 9.08, 35.28, 15, and 16.2.

So Mia gets hit by the halb 22.5% more often, by the sage 330%, the ballista 2630% more often. Zihark gets hit by the cat 42% more often.

If Zihark instead had A Brom/B Muarim, he'd have 95 avo instead. I don't even need to redo the calculations to show how much Zihark wins by.

"BUT SMASH UR ASSUMING THAT MIA IS FACING THOSE FOUR SPECIFIC ENEMIES"

Do you want me to take stronger enemies? DO you want me to assume that she's attacking a general than a noobshit halb? Do you want me to assume that she's getting blasted by a second mage than a ballista? Do you want me to assume that she's getting attacked by 4 tigers instead? I can't really take weaker enemies, as I'm already assuming 2 weak enemies (halb/ballista), one enemy that's more annoying to kill rather than actually threatening (cat), and one semi threatening enemy that's really fragile and easy to kill (sage). The only real way this could be any better for Mia is if I replaced all the enemies with axes. FFS, I didn't even bother to calculate the ballista's chances of critting her.

Four enemies of this caliber is very, very lenient (the only dangerous one being the sage) when many upper mid tiers and above can take all of them on and still be fine. FFS, several lower mid tiers can tank that. I fully expect Mia to actually have a decent chance at surviving such a wimpy combination of enemies. The ballista is such a joke to anyone not a flier that it shouldn't even count as an enemy, yet Mia's durability is so awful it's actually worrying her.

The point isn't that Mia is going to die from this combination, is that her durability is awful unless she's fighting combinations of enemies that are even more specific than the ones I'm using for comparison purposes.

It's also worth noting that, in comparison to Zihark, most of the enemies were in the higher hit brackets (lance enemy with WTA, sage, cat. Only the ballista is really inaccurate), so it's likely that we'd be taking enemies with lower hit, which would benefit Zihark far more.

"BUT SMASH, MIA CUD USE GUD WEAPONZ"

You mean shit like the VK, which has an amazing 25 uses? Or Sonic sword? These are...

1) wanted by several other people so the negative has to be at least considered (I know no one is ever going to do this)

2) Limited uses

3) Only helpful against specific enemies (as an example, the VK still won't do anything against 1-2 range enemies)

4) burned through really easily if you ever want to use it to counter on enemy phase. As an example, if you're pulling out an SS so you can counter some 1-2 range enemy, it's going to be used against EVERY OTHER ENEMY that attacks her on that phase. If you don't want to burn that many uses of the SS, then Mia either has to eat shit and take the counter without having her chance of OHKOing it beforehand, or she has to stay away from enough enemies where she won't die.

5) She only has 4 weapon slots, so even if you wanted to dump the entire armory on her she can only bring 4 swords

There are far too many strings attached where you can't just go "WELL MIA CAN USE GODLY SWORDS LOL" and completely write it off.

Also, another example of Mia's prowess with wrath, or rather lack of.

Wrath does not help MIa on "everything". Maybe offensively, but defensively, she's even worse off against the things vantage is useless against unless she burns through special swords. In fact, chapter 20, the first real chapter you can use wrath for, since chapter 19 doesn't have much fighting...

Here's a 20/3 Mia for reference

33 HP, 14.4 str, 6.8 mag, 19.2 skl, 23.2 spd, 13.2 lck, 12.2 def, 8 res

SO with a steel sword, A Rhys and B Ilyana, and half HP, we get...

26.4 atk, 23.2 AS, 151.6 hit, 74.6 crit - - 59.6 avo, 17.5 hp, 13.2 def, 9.0 res, 13.2 critavo

Enemies in chapter 20.

2 soldiers, 3 halberdiers. One has a short spear so she won't counter it.

4/5 vantage+wrath is effective against

2 archers, 1 sniper. The sniper even has a longbow, so even with the SS she won't counter it.

0/3

priest, whatever

2 fighters. One has a hand axe. Although it probably won't hit her, she's still not countering it.

1/2

1 myrmidon. Mia can OHKO it.

1/1

9 wyverns. The weakest one has 32 HP, 16 def. Mia can't OHKO it. And these enemies have WTA on her anyway. One of them even carries a short spear.

0/9

2 cavaliers, 1 paladin. The paladin has a bow.

2/3

2 knights. 32 HP, 20 def. lol. Because of her WTD, Mia would need about 32 att to 3HKO. She can't even pull that off with a forged steel.

0/2

1 mage, 1 bishop, 3 sages. 1 actually has a blizzard, so she can't counter that with the SS.

0/5

Shiharam who doesn't move, so it doesn't matter.

For reinforcements...

1 mage, 1 sage.

0/2

4 wyverns. Again, 32 HP/16 def. Mia is probably not even OHKOing. PLus, two of them have javelins.

0/4

1 knight. Not OHKOing.

0/1

So of the 37 enemies that matter, Mia will OHKO a grand total of 8 enemies with a regular steel sword. That means, for the other 29 enemies, she's going to need a special weapon to deal with them (and sometimes even that won't work on some enemies. The SS isn't going to OHKO magic enemies; they have too much res), or wrath effectively does fucking nothing for her durability.

And, only the Vague katti and killing edge gives a 100 crit. The other weapons will still have about 70 crit on enemies (they have luck), so it's not guaranteed she won't eat their counter.

And this is for one freaking chapter. Can you imagine this for the rest of the game?

What if Zihark got wrath? He's not going to care about the 2-range enemies or the enemies he can't OHKO. He doesn't care about any of that. He just uses his avoid and dodges the attack, and then blicks them afterwards. In this case he can face almost any combination of enemies safely without having a serious chance of dying. And he doesn't need several limited use, inventory-clogging weapons to do it. He needs a fucking noobshit generic steel sword.

See, the difference between giving ZIhark wrath and giving Mia wrath is that giving Zihark wrath frees up all the special swords (except perhaps before wrath is available, but obviously Mia isn't going to be any better in that regard anyway) as he only needs a noobshit generic steel sword to do the job fine, while Mia ends up TAKING the special swords just so she doesn't suck dick.

Or the fact taht Zihark doesn't require wrath. If wrath isn't free, he doesn't really care, he's still a decent unit. if Mia doesn't get wrath, she's freaking terrible.

What if Muarim got wrath? He has less avoid, but more HP and def, and he could also improve his offense since laguz can't use any special weapons at all and energy drops are only +2 att.

Or Oscar? He's now ORKOing with a hand axe (at least 75% chance to crit on a double attack), which means he just solos the map.

Or how about a random low tier who can get vantage + wrath and as I pointed out earlier, vantage isn't really big enough of a resource to matter in this situation?

How are Mia's gains so much better than everyone else's?

Edited by pen15
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I actually didn't want to get involved into Mia vs. everyone much, but what the heck, I'll do it anyway.

How about... giving ZIhark the fucking wrath skill himself?

And he does what with it? OHKO people? That's fine, but it doesn't improve his durability in the slightest, just his offense. Mia, on the other hand, can just combine it with Vantage, which improves her durability quite a bit if it allows her to OHKO stuff on enemy phase. Sure, she doesn't suddenly become immortal with it, but she sure as heck draws a lot more use out of it than pretty much everyone else.

Also, yes, we also get a Vantage, but giving that to Nephenee to utilize another Vantage + Wrath combo probably is the best choice. However, why give another unit both Vantage and Wrath via the scrolls so only one unit has it (and maybe even has to discard its own skills beforehand) when Mia draws the most use out of Wrath? Many other people probably don't need Wrath to ORKO consistently, and don't have very high crit chances to utilize Vantage + Wrath with either, so it wouldn't improve them as much as Mia. This doesn't automatically mean Mia > those units, but it certainly gives us a reason for why we should give Wrath to Mia (only if she is in play, of course), not to anyone else.

Also, your comparisons are inaccurate. Not only does Lv20/8 for Mia look pretty low at that point if we assume her to have Lv13 in chapter 11, but I also don't think that Mia is always running around at half HP just so she gets 2RKO'd by everything. Wrath is more of a safety net than anything else - she fights normally, and once she hits half HP or lower, she suddenly goes berserk. If you plan to have her take on several enemies on Enemy Phase at once, and know she'll face significant death chances if you send her there with just half HP, well then you obviously heal her before you send her there. If she takes damage, she'll still activiate wrath.

Also, you vastly exaggerate the issue of the limited weapon uses. Hammerne exists for a reason, and what other weapons would you honestly want to repair other than stuff like the Vague Katti, the Sonic Sword and maybe Braves?

Also, speaking of the Vague Katti: she once again draws the most use out of it. With the Vantage + Wrath Combo, VG grants her 100 Crt. Combined with its high Atk, this pretty much means that any enemy that is not a general that attacks her in melee is going to die before he even gets to attack her. This essentially means that all said melee enemies have 0 True Hit against her if she equips it. Still whining about durability issues?

Also, there is the Rune Sword as well. IIRC, it restores her HP if she hits with it, so she basically becomes immortal with it and still counters 2-range-enemies.

Also, please don't generalize everything. Awesome, you showed us one chapter's enemies. What about the other chapters' enemies? Aside from that, her level again looks much too low for chapter 20. Come on, you're not gonna say that she can't get more than one level per chapter?

What if Muarim got wrath? He has less avoid, but more HP and def, and he could also improve his offense since laguz can't use any special weapons at all and energy drops are only +2 att.

Muarim's crit chance is one single failure. Even with Wrath he wouldn't exactly crit everything, which means that he doesn't draw as much use out of it as Mia. Also, his durability and offense are fine anyway, why would he need it?

Or Oscar? He's now ORKOing with a hand axe (at least 75% chance to crit on a double attack), which means he just solos the map.

Wouldn't you prefer to give Oscar Sol instead?

And is he seriously not ORKOing with a hand axe without Wrath? Numbers plz.

Or how about a random low tier who can get vantage + wrath and as I pointed out earlier, vantage isn't really big enough of a resource to matter in this situation?

Nowhere near reliable crit chances and/or they don't improve with it as much as Mia does

That doesn't mean that they cannot get it, but Mia puts it to much, much better use, meaning that her chances to get Wrath are so high if she's in play that she's almost guaranteed to get it. Everyone else can get Wrath if Mia isn't in play, but if she is, sandbagging her by not giving her that damn thing is pretty pointless.

Also, just a note... You claim quite a lot of things as facts, but hardly pull out any numbers at all to prove them. As such, who tells me that you're saying the truth? Prove your points with (realistic) numbers please.

Edited by Raymond
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I can't help but wonder, Raymond, if in that comparison Tormod couldn't be higher level before Calill shows up. Hell, don't you think considering he's keeping up with the cavs fairly well and his generally low level, he could have plenty more levels before promotion? That he could possibly promote naturally or be a higher level before sealing? Er...wait, 12/7. Woudl basically be the same thing I guess. Jeez, Calill's got crazy bases.

Anywho, this makes me wonder about the other mages. Rhys, Soren and Illyana.

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RIP FE9 tier List

Born October 17, 2005 to Mr. and Mrs. tier List

Died September 26, 2009 due to its bodily functions abruptly failing

Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince;

And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

Very poetic. Let me try, with a haiku:

Communist Emblem

Fully repudiated

Farewell, Paperblade

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Can't wait for Socialist Emblem, when those who lag behind the top tiers are compensated in some form, then Fascist Emblem for when all work to better the top tiers, and finally Apocalyptic Emblem for when anyone not top tier naturally recruited is used as sacrificial lambs.

Anyways, any thoughts on applying such thinking to the earlygame magi?

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I can't help but wonder, Raymond, if in that comparison Tormod couldn't be higher level before Calill shows up. Hell, don't you think considering he's keeping up with the cavs fairly well and his generally low level, he could have plenty more levels before promotion? That he could possibly promote naturally or be a higher level before sealing? Er...wait, 12/7. Woudl basically be the same thing I guess. Jeez, Calill's got crazy bases.

Well, as far as I know, Tormod has mainly been that low on the list because of his crappy performance when he joins. Thus, if we don't seal him, he might gain more levels until Calill joins (or not - without the Seal, he fails to double crap not named Knights, or in other words, he'd be rather crappy), but it would be more than canceled out by his shitty performance then. My aim was to make his performance useful right away so that this point couldn't be used against him, which 5 levels of BEXP and a seal accomplish.

Anywho, this makes me wonder about the other mages. Rhys, Soren and Illyana.

I'm not sure about them; Soren and Rhys don't have access to BEXP right away. Ilyana does, I suppose, though I don't know how much that'd help her.

However, seals might indeed help their overall performance; someone would need to look into that in more detail.

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Few things here:

I don't see how Mia>Zihark, mainly because Zihark can gain near-invunerability with supports, Mia can't, which is the big between the two.

Also not seeing Tormod>Calill. You entitled Tormod to a lot if BEXP and a Seal(that Seal has to rot in the convoy for like 7 chapters). You gave Calill nothing, I don't doubt that Tormod with a level lead is better than Calill, the issue is him getting the level lead. We cannot just justify massive amounts of resources on units that start crappy and end up better(Rolf,Mia,Tormod), because there are costs associated with these resources, everyone can use them. The fact that Tormod can only match Calill's bases after so much favoritism is more a testament to Calill than anything else IMO.

WRT Mia's level, 20/1 by Ch18 seems reasonable, and 1 level after that(or slightly more) is standard. So 20/3 by Ch20 seems a reasonable estimate to me, 20/6 would be an overestimate IMO. And yes we know she's available from 7-17, the question is whether she's useful. She really isn't very good, really low durability (2-3HKO at high hit rates), low Str and locked to swords so her damage output is too low to ORKO most things, and she doe not have substantial crit yet. Her contribution is neutral at best, negative at worst.

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We cannot just justify massive amounts of resources on units that start crappy and end up better(Rolf,Mia,Tormod), because there are costs associated with these resources, everyone can use them.

You are over-learning the lesson about resource use. Units who give good returns on investment, of which Mia is one, can justify the costs to get them there with later performance.

FE9 Hard Mode is far too easy for Mia to be considered a negative, unless you are delibrately doing silly things or otherwise handicapping her. Mia is just not bad enough for the environment that she exists in. You would require a seriously mediocre team (aka you are relying more heavily on her) before Mia's own issues become a real problem for game completion.

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Okay, so instead of getting healed once or twice a map, Mia gets healed 3 or 4 times. Big deal. Oh, and with Vague Katti 100 crit isn't unattainable. And not giving Vague Katti to a unit that can 100% crit with it is a waste of the Vague Katti's 25 uses.

Keep in mind Vague Katti also boosts Def by 3, so it's not a total waste to give it to someone else due to the increase of durability.

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Few things here:

I don't see how Mia>Zihark, mainly because Zihark can gain near-invunerability with supports, Mia can't, which is the big between the two.

Mia may or may not be better than Zihark, but a 2-tier gap between them because of 20-30 avo is a bit much.

WRT Mia's level, 20/1 by Ch18 seems reasonable, and 1 level after that(or slightly more) is standard. So 20/3 by Ch20 seems a reasonable estimate to me, 20/6 would be an overestimate IMO. And yes we know she's available from 7-17, the question is whether she's useful. She really isn't very good, really low durability (2-3HKO at high hit rates), low Str and locked to swords so her damage output is too low to ORKO most things, and she doe not have substantial crit yet. Her contribution is neutral at best, negative at worst.

20/1 by Ch18 means 8 levels in 9 chapters if you split up Day Breaks, which is slower exp gain than normal.

Edited by WeaponsofMassConstruction
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Okay, so instead of getting healed once or twice a map, Mia gets healed 3 or 4 times. Big deal. Oh, and with Vague Katti 100 crit isn't unattainable. And not giving Vague Katti to a unit that can 100% crit with it is a waste of the Vague Katti's 25 uses.

Keep in mind Vague Katti also boosts Def by 3, so it's not a total waste to give it to someone else due to the increase of durability.

Like someone in Wrath mode HP for example?

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