FE9 Tier list v3

[Ether]

All this talk about PoR made me want to play it again, so I blew the dust off of my disc this weekend. I figured it would be a good idea to look at Mia's performance in a real playthrough, as opposed to a transfer run, to see if the reality matched my memories. Is she really as bad as people keep asserting? Is my run slowed down by using her? Does the BEXP needlessly pauper the army? Etc. I started a run with the idea of playing Mia efficiently, in Fixed mode, so that she didn't get RNG-blessed or anything.

Preliminary results? All of you who say that Mia is a drag on the party are out of your fucking trees. Do you have any idea how to play this game at all? Jesus Christ, I thought this game was easy when I was doing transfer runs that delibrately used crappy characters and hoarded BEXP/stat-ups until Endgame... when I am playing efficiently, with an eye towards winning, it's not just easy, it's a non-stop steamroll curb-stomp.

I'll give an example. In Chapter 7, Mia is basically dead weight. I had her kill the archer that spawned chasing her, and then I just used her for opening chests and maybe killing some scrub-bag that Titania missed by 2 HP if I had nothing better to do at the time. This is an 11-turn chapter for BEXP purposes, and I was running out of shit to kill on turn 7-8.

Come next chapter, I get access to Base and I decide to put the BEXP theory to the test. Let's level-up Mia and make her good. So, I took my copious amounts of BEXP (I got max for every chapter, naturally, since my cat could beat this game), and spread it out amongst Mia, Boyd, and Oscar so that all three of them were level 10 at the end. This left me with 918 BEXP, which admittedly is quite a bit left of the ~1500+, and I could have spent it right there, but I want to save some for Ilyana (since I am going to use her) and other up-and-coming units.

Well, it didn't matter anyway, I raped that chapter so hard that on Turn 8 (the last turn) I had nothing left to kill. At all. Everything was dead. Two random idiots that spawned on the last possible turn, a soldier and a myrm in the east, used their actions to suicide into Boyd on Enemy Phase. Here's some of what those poor bastards were up against:

- Boyd, level 10. 13mt forged Iron Axe, 12 STR, 10 SPD. Boyd was ORKO'ing Armors in this chapter. ARMORS. Would more levels would have made a difference here? Not likely!

- Oscar, level 10. Steel/Iron lances, Short Spear/Jav, 9 STR, 11 SPD. Not a ORKO'ing maniac, but doubles tons of shit and does good damage via Canto-bombing and 2-ranging.

- Titania, level 5. Steel/Iron axes, Hand Axe. 14 STR, 16 SPD. Those who know how to play the game know that you give Titania the boss kills (not that it takes any effort, since she stares at a boss and it dies), so this amped-up Titania is ORKO'ing tons of shit with just plain Hand Axes.

- Mia, level 10. Iron/Steel swords, Armorslayer. 9 STR, 15 SPD. Well holy shit, look what happens when you're not sandbagging Mia by not fixing her level. Now she's doing double 10's on Armors in this level with the slayer, aka 3HKO aka 2RKO aka better than Ike with a Regal.

Chapter 8 pwned. Chapter 9 found me sending Mia, Ilyana (who got some BEXP'ed levels to double a few things), Mist, Rolf, and Titania (to catch the bandit) down on the sand. Destruction happened, nothing with and axe could hurt Mia, and Ilyana's 2-range plus occasional potshot chips from Rolf made this a leisurely stroll on the beach. Got both houses saved, and even pwned the pirate reinforcements. The rest of the army had no problems plowing through to the Sieze square.

Chapter 10. I didn't Metal Gear Solid this one, I blazed through it like a herd of bulls left loose in a china shop (I wanted the treasure and master seal). Mia's contributions here included fighting the reinforcements that back-door you when the alarm sounds, as well as smashing apart the Armors at the exit. As with Chapter 7, I found myself 4 turns from the BEXP limit with really nothing left to kill and nobody left to rescue.

Chapter 11. All of my primary combatants, Mia included, are at least level 14-15 at this point. I deploy both Lethe/Mordy (slots to spare), and carefully position them so that Zihark doesn't waste KE uses (success!). Mia is doing a little bit less than normal in this chapter since she can't keep up with Tits and crew (who are charging toward the Arrive with Ike in tow), so I put her with Boyd/Ilyana and they clean up slow-movers and reinforcements. Z/Mordy/Lethe take care of the items/enemies on the north side.

Chapter 12. I top off the rest of Mia's level, bringing her to 17 (she is a touch ahead of others at this point, who are 16ish). I pass out more BEXP to even it up. I still have over 1100 fucking BEXP left over at this point, but I'd feel like a tool for spending it since I'm already raping the shit out of everything. I could give some to Zihark, who is getting badly beaten by Mia at this point (2 STR behind, 4 SPD behind, 5 LCK behind, 2 DEF behind, 2 HP behind, 4 RES behind, and Mia has C Rhys by this point for +1 mt/ +5 HIT), but there's no point in using two Myrms for this playthrough (another time, big Z). Anyway, you already know how this story turns out: Mia rapes the shit out of this chapter because she's doubling for like 20 damage a pop with the Laguzslayer, aka instant ORKO on every Raven in the chapter.

Chapter 13. Mia is level 18 now, she's probably going to promote to Swordmaster by the time that Chapter 15 is over, just in time for the VAGUE KATTI. I wonder if I will even bother with Wrath at this point. I mean, it's not even fair to the enemies.

Do I even need to keep fucking going? When does Mia magically start slowing down my team, exactly? Can someone help me out, here? Should I maybe start the game over and start doing retarded shit like having Soren tank and Volke be my primary damage dealer? Maybe I should BEXP dump Rolf or Mist so that I can't raise anyone else? Maybe I should kill off half my team? Maybe everyone needs iron weapons? Speaking of which, I didn't even give Mia a forge yet.

People who say that Mia is a piece of shit, help me out, here. I'm not really good at playing inefficiently and/or making stupid resource allocation decisions.

Thank you.Interceptor.I think this shows exactly how Mia performs in her early chapters.So now i'll say it again,and no one can claim otherwise(except Smash,cause he has Int on ignore),that Mia isn't a fucking detriment.EVER.

[-Cynthia-]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

Edited September 27, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

Except from what I read he had plenty of bexp left over for other units if he wanted to. Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. Also, she appears to be quite superior to anything those units would be capable of doing in chapter 12, for one thing.

[Scarlet]

Very well, I'll try Tormod vs. Gatrie then.

Gatrie is a pretty cool guy, he joins at chapter 3 with such a high DEF base that he's pretty much immortal against the wimpy enemies there and doesn't afraid of anything. I have no doubt that he's pretty useful there; his amazing earlygame is Gatrie's greatest advantage. However, he then leaves the team in chapter 7 and rejoins in chapter 13. The enemies in the first few chapters all have a significantly lower level than Gatrie, so he doesn't get very much EXP from a single enemies, but the amount of enemies he can face without fear balances that out, I guess. I'll assume he gets 3 levels before he leaves.

Alright, so he comes back in chapter 13 with these stats:

Lv12 Gatrie:

33.4 HP, 13.65 STR, 0.15 MAG, 7.65 SKL, 5.75 SPD, 5.75 LUK, 15.8 DEF, 0.9 RES

Steel Lance: 23.65 Atk, 88.175 Hit, 3.825 Crt, 5.75 AS, 17.25 Avd

Javelin: 19.65 Atk, 78.175 Hit, 3.825 Crt, 5.75 AS, 17.25 Avd

How does he fare against the enemies there?

Lv12 Myrmidon (Iron Sword): 24 HP, 6 Def, 13 AS, 29 Avd | 14 Atk, 116 Hit, 6 Crt

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 69 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Lv13 Soldier (Steel Lance): 29 HP, 8 Def, 5 AS, 14 Avd | 19 Atk, 90 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 74 DHit (3RKOs at 64 DHit with Javelin), gets 11RKO'd at 73 DHit in return

Lv12 Archer (Steel Bow): 24 HP, 8 Def, 8 AS, 19 Avd | 17 Atk, 97 Hit, 6 Crt

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 69 DHit (3RKOs at 59 DHit with Javelin), gets 33RKO'd at 80 DHit in return

Lv13 Fighter (Steel Axe): 34 HP, 8 Def, 5 AS, 13 Avd | 23 Atk, 82 Hit, 4 Crt

---> Gatrie 3RKOs at 65 DHit (4RKOs at 55 DHit with Javelin), gets 5RKO'd at 75 DHit in return

Lv11 Mage (Thunder): 22 HP, 5 Def, 8 AS, 18 Avd | 14 Atk, 100 Hit, 8 Crt

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 70 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 83 DHit and 2 Crt in return

Lv3 Raven (Beak): 28 HP, 10 Def, 14 AS, 28 Avd | 17 Atk, 112 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 60 DHit (3RKOs if his STR rounds down or the Raven's HP rounds up) (3RKOs with Javelin at 50 DHit, 4RKOs if his STR rounds down or the Raven's HP rounds up), gets 17RKO'd at 95 DHit in return

So in other words, Gatrie still pwns defensively (except against the mages, who actually have a chance of insta-blicking him), but his offense sucks balls. Not only does he not ORKO anything at all, but he also has severe Hit issues, especially if he pulls out a Javelin to counter ranged enemies. He can act as a wall pretty reliably, but someone will have to clean up the enemies that attacked him afterwards (he simply stalls them), so I wouldn't exactly consider him very helpful at this point, though he is usable.

Also note that promoting Gatrie early at this point would be pointless, as he still wouldn't double or OHKO anything; it would simply turn some 3RKOs into 2RKOs and prevent the mages from insta-blicking him if they crit him (though they'd still leave him only at low single-digit HP), but that's about it. I'd consider that a waste, so let's not do that.

Anyway, let's fast-forward to chapter 16, where Tormod joins. I'll give Tormod the Master Seal again, so I'll let Gatrie keep the Knight Ward for the whole time as a compensation. I'll also give both of them the exact same amount of BEXP (514) so that I don't get this favoritism stuff again.

Lv12/1 Tormod (+ Paladin Band):

26.75 HP, 5.0 STR, 13.25 MAG, 13.0 SKL, 13.5 SPD, 9.75 LUK, 7.25 DEF, 13.25 RES

> Elfire: 18.25 Atk, 115.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 21.25 Atk, 125.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

Lv19 Gatrie (514 BEXP = 4 levels; other than that 1 level per chapter, which is generous considering that chapter 15 is the desert. Assuming Knight Ward from Lv12 and onwards), C Marcia:

39.0 HP, 17.5 STR, 0.5 MAG, 11.5 SKL, 9.6 SPD, 7.5 LUK, 20.0 (+3) DEF, 3.0 (+3) RES

> Steel Lance: 28.5 Atk, 101.75 Hit, 5.75 Crt, 9.6 AS, 26.7 Avd

Javelin: 24.5 Atk, 91.75 Hit, 5.75 Crt, 9.6 AS, 26.7 Avd

Well, well. What shall I say? Gatrie still doesn't double crap (except maybe armor knights) and even though he hits pretty damn hard, he needs to actually hit first, which can be rather troublesome for him, and he's pretty much screwed if his supports aren't in range. Of course he's immortal im comparison to Tormod, but he'll also be totally left in the dust by Tormod's almost twice as high movement range, and even though Tormod is a lot more frail than Gatrie is, he can at least offset that a bit by not taking a counter in his Player Phase. Additionally, Gatrie doesn't have any answer to Tormod's staves.

Anyway, let's compare them to enemies directly (chapter 16):

Lv15 Myrmidon (Steel Sword): 26 HP, 7 Def/4 Res, 14 AS, 32 Avd | 20 Atk, 105 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 84 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 68 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 80 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Lv15 Fighter (Steel Axe): 36 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 8 AS, 20 Avd | 24 Atk, 85 Hit, 4 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs (3 Hits) at 96 DHit, gets 2RKO'd at 48 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 72 DHit (3RKOs at 62 DHit with Javelin), gets 20RKO'd at 68 DHit in return

Lv16 Mage (Elthunder): 25 HP, 6 Def/13 Res, 8 AS, 19 Avd | 20 Atk, 96 Hit, 15 Crt

---> Tormod 4RKOs at 77 DHit (2RKOs at 87 DHit with the forge), gets 4RKO'd at 69 DHit and 5 Crt in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 83 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 69 DHit and 7 Crt in return

Lv14 Knight (Iron Lance): 30 HP, 18 Def/6 Res, 4 AS, 11 Avd | 18 Atk, 97 Hit, 4 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 60 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 91 DHit (3RKOs at 81 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv14 Soldier (Steel Lance): 30 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 7 AS, 17 Avd | 20 Atk, 93 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 99 DHit (ORKOs if his MAG happens to round up or if he uses the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 56 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 85 DHit, cannot be KO'd in return

Alright, so Gatrie wins combat right now, but remember that Tormod has just joined in this chapter, and also has almost twice as much MOV and staves to top it off. Their offense actually is about the same (unless Tormod pulls out a forge, in which case he slightly wins), it's just that Gatrie doesn't need to worry about dying (again, except against the mages) while Tormod gets 3RKO'd by most stuff, which is neither spectacular nor bad, especially since he doesn't eat counters on Player Phase. I'm inclined to say, however, that [staves and more MOV] > [overkill durability].

Let's give them some more time, shall we? Let's compare them again at chapter 22.

Lv12/10 Tormod, B Reyson, C Calill, (+ Paladin Band):

31.7 HP, 6.8 STR, 17.3 MAG, 16.6 SKL, 18.0 SPD, 12.9 LUK, 9.5 DEF, 17.3 RES

> Elfire: 25.3 Atk, 136.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd

Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 28.3 Atk, 146.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd

Lv20/7 Gatrie, B Marcia, B Ilyana (+ Knight Ward):

47.6 HP, 24.35 STR, 2.85 MAG, 17.35 SKL, 15.75 SPD, 9.25 LUK, 24.6 (+5) DEF, 8.1 (+5) RES

> Steel Lance: 35.35 Atk, 129.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd

Silver Lance: 40.35 Atk, 134.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd

Javelin: 31.35 Atk, 119.325 Hit, 8.675 Crt, 15.75 AS, 31.75 Avd

Okay, so Gatrie's hit issues no longer exist. Actually, Gatrie looks pretty damn beastly now. He's even got somewhat decent AS now. But is it enough to impress Tormod? Let's see.

Lv4 Halberdier (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 13 Def/8 Res, 13 AS, 30 Avd | 22 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 49 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 99 DHit (3RKOs at 89 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv4 Paladin (Steel Lance): 35 HP, 16 Def/9 Res, 15 AS, 35 Avd | 25 Atk, 92 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Tormod 3RKOs at 100 DHit (2RKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 41 DHit in return (2RKO'd if his DEF rounds down)

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 94 DHit (3RKOs at 84 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv6 Warrior (Steel Axe): 45 HP, 11 Def/6 Res, 13 AS, 31 Avd | 28 Atk, 91 Hit, 6 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge if his MAG happens to round up), gets 2RKO'd at 40 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 88 DHit (3RKOs at 78 DHit with Javelin), cannot be KO'd in return

Lv5 Sage (Elthunder): 31 HP, 9 Def/15 Res, 13 AS, 29 Avd | 21 Atk, 102 Hit, 16 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 98 DHit, gets 7RKO'd at 61 DHit and 3 Crt in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 100 DHit (OHKOs with Silver Lance), gets 6RKO'd at 7 Crt in return

Lv4 Wyvern Lord (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 19 Def/7 Res, 12 AS, 26 Avd | 26 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 2RKO'd at 49 DHit in return

---> Gatrie 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with Silver Lance), cannot be KO'd in return

Well, if you give Tormod a forge, he wins offense against most enemies, while Gatrie with a better weapon only pulls better offense against sages (as kinda expected), while he ties or loses offense against every other enemy. Gatrie is immortal, but his offense still isn't very good (except against sages, I guess); I guess this really depends on how highly you rank [earlygame + overkill durability + craptastic MOV + meh offense] vs. [staves + Celerity + good offense]. If you value the latter a little more than the former, then I guess we can say Tormod > Gatrie. If not, well, then not.

[Interceptor]

The amount of BEXP you gave Mia was quite significant, in a normal playthrough Boyd/Oscar would definitely be a higher level than Mia since they have several earlygame chapters with lttle competition for kills. So in reality Mia should be several level lower than the rest of the team, unless we BEXP her up. Of course we can BEXP people like Mia and Rolf, but that doesn't mean that their resource consumption can be totally ignored.

Cynthia, that fact that Oscar and Boyd would normally be higher than Mia is a nonsense point. In FE9, I am God. I have over 1500 BEXP availible to me at the start of Chapter 8, to use as I see fit. As I went out of my way to point out, getting Boyd past 10 makes no goddamn sense at all. He's already ORKO'ing the strongest non-boss enemy on the map, what purpose would it serve to get him higher except to retard his CEXP growth by making him a higher effective level? What I basically did was put people at a level to have optimal performance, aka Boyd destroys, Oscar doubles a bunch, Mia can 3HKO Generals and survive better, etc.

As the chapters wear on, people pull away from each other because of their abiltiy to take kills. But I can always put my finger on the scale with BEXP to even things up and keep people at optimal performance. I BEXP'ed Kieran at the start of Chapter 11 so that he could double more stuff. It would have been retarded to do otherwise, since I'd be cutting his damage in half.

But I guess your point is that there are a lot of characters who don't need BEXP. That was true for your units for the most part, but there are other slow starting units (Neph, Brom , Zihark ,Astrid ,Mak, Jill, Marcia, Mist, Rolf). Your team was more restricted frm using these units because you used Mia instead, and most of them have better payoffs(Mov,1-2 range, durability etc.)

How the hell is my team restricted in any substantial way? Did you not see that I'm sitting on 1100 goddamn BEXP in the beginning of Ch. 13? Rolf is level 1 atm. I could take him from noobshit to level 11-12, right now. I could BEXP the snot out of Astrid as soon as I get her, too. Fact of the matter is, although Mia has taken this BEXP, I am also throwing BEXP on my other combatants (I'd be retarded not to), and Mia is absolutely giving returns on my investment.

Sure, she's not anywhere near a Boyd or Oscar, but that's why she's not anywhere near Top tier, nor will she ever be. I suppose it's possible to go ever faster than I already am, maybe by BEXP dumping Marcia or something in Ch. 10, but good lord, what does a unit have to do to get credit for positive contributions, here?

You know, the fact of the matter is, it's so easy to leverage this game's resources to turn units into killing machines, that one of the best ways to help game completion is to EXIST. This is not to be contested, it seems logical enough: you live, you affect your world (two Internets for anyone who gets the reference).

[dondon151]

I posit that the abundance of BEXP in this game, in addition to the quality of enemies relative to PC units, greatly increases the importance of availability, since it's not really hard at all to just walk around the disadvantage of being "underleveled" by feeding units BEXP.

[-Cynthia-]

Except from what I read he had plenty of bexp left over for other units if he wanted to. Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. Also, she appears to be quite superior to anything those units would be capable of doing in chapter 12, for one thing.

Marcia is highly debatable, since she can engage the ravens several turns before and flying utility for the rest of the game is absurdly useful(Ch15).

Raymond, that wasn't especially convincing IMO, there seemed to be a lot of wins for Gatrie with Tormod only winning in the short time you Sealed him. Also 8(Tormod's Mov) is not almost double Gatrie's(6) Mov, that's a rather large exaggeration. IMO Tormod's Mov isn't actually that helpful all the time, Mov is mostly so you can expose yourself to as many enemies as possible, but Tormod can't do that since his durability is pretty terrible.

@Int The fact of the matter is that Mia needs the BEXP, most of the characters above her don't or become better with the use of BEXP than she does do to various factors. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here, unless you want Mia to move up further.

Edited September 27, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

[...]Also, I don't know if the units he mentioned by name are the only ones he's using. [...]

I chose a team for efficiency and Support synergy. My current line-up: Ike, Ilyana, Mia, Boyd, Kieran, Rhys, Titania, Oscar, Mist. I really wanted to use Nephenee, but I don't want to deploy her support partners and having two Wrath queens on the same team dilutes the value of the strategy. I haven't decided whether I want to add Astrid, or Jill, or any number of other ridiculously pwoerful units that will enable me to stomp the game somehow even harder than I am already stomping it.

Maybe I will add Astrid, since I have never used her before.

[Scarlet]

Raymond, that wasn't especially convincing IMO, there seemed to be a lot of wins for Gatrie with Tormod only winning in the short time you Sealed him. Also 8(Tormod's Mov) is not almost double Gatrie's(6) Mov, that's a rather large exaggeration. IMO Tormod's Mov isn't actually that helpful all the time, Mov is mostly so you can expose yourself to as many enemies as possible, but Tormod can't do that since his durability is pretty terrible.

I stated the MOV thing when I did 12/1 Tormod vs. 19 Gatrie. Unpromoted Gatrie only has 5 MOV and a worse move-type than Tormod, so I say that saying that Tormod had almost twice as much MOV at that point wasn't exaggerated. Of course it's no longer quite as significant once Gatrie promotes as well, I'm aware of that. Maybe I should've mentioned it.

Well, I guess it was worth a shot anyway. I'll probably aim a bit lower the next time then and just try to at least argue him into Mid; he should have a case against Devdan at the very least, but it's pretty late already and I'm tired, so I'll probably do that tomorrow or something.

[grandjackal]

It makes me wonder about Soren, who has a support with Ike. Titania has better people to support (and I'd take 1 ATK and 8 avoid>6 hit and 1 Def, especially since Ike's main A is Oscar for double earth), and Lethe comes later. A mere B gives Soren 1 ATK and 28 avoid. If we're agreeing we can BEXP people up to equal levels (in Soren's case, level 10), he would have these stats by chapter...When we get access to BEXP. 8 was it?

10 Soren, C Ike

22.05 HP, 0.45 Str, 11.4 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 11.6 Speed, 7.7 Luck, 3.35 Def, 11.95 Res. 31 Hit, 29+14 avoid, 6 crit. Any band configuartion would mean he would get a stat up on that stat next level up.

He reduces most people in chapter 8 to 2 RN advantage hit rates. With a forged wind, he's failing to double a grand total of 2 enemies on the map, packing 18 mt which could easily ORKO just about anything. Doing this at 1-2 range, I'd think the only one doing better is probably Boyd due to not needing avoid to be durable, Oscar for pretty much being immortal with the C from Ike, Titania for obvious reasons.

Or maybe I'm just loony.

[Ether]

It makes me wonder about Soren, who has a support with Ike. Titania has better people to support (and I'd take 1 ATK and 8 avoid>6 hit and 1 Def, especially since Ike's main A is Oscar for double earth), and Lethe comes later. A mere B gives Soren 1 ATK and 28 avoid. If we're agreeing we can BEXP people up to equal levels (in Soren's case, level 10), he would have these stats by chapter...When we get access to BEXP. 8 was it?

10 Soren, C Ike

22.05 HP, 0.45 Str, 11.4 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 11.6 Speed, 7.7 Luck, 3.35 Def, 11.95 Res. 31 Hit, 29+14 avoid, 6 crit. Any band configuartion would mean he would get a stat up on that stat next level up.

He reduces most people in chapter 8 to 2 RN advantage hit rates. With a forged wind, he's failing to double a grand total of 2 enemies on the map, packing 18 mt which could easily ORKO just about anything. Doing this at 1-2 range, I'd think the only one doing better is probably Boyd due to not needing avoid to be durable, Oscar for pretty much being immortal with the C from Ike, Titania for obvious reasons.

Or maybe I'm just loony.

I'm pretty sure he got Boyd/Oscar/Mia that high because they would have been around level 7-8 before bexp,while Soren might be around level...5 maybe?

[Interceptor]

I posit that the abundance of BEXP in this game, in addition to the quality of enemies relative to PC units, greatly increases the importance of availability, since it's not really hard at all to just walk around the disadvantage of being "underleveled" by feeding units BEXP.

Agreed.

@Int The fact of the matter is that Mia needs the BEXP, most of the characters above her don't or become better with the use of BEXP than she does do to various factors. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here, unless you want Mia to move up further.

I started my playthrough prior to you grumblingly putting her above Geoff. I didn't so much have an argument as I did a righteous anger towards the people who keep shitting on Mia, since it's pretty clear to me that they are in the wrong.

Although WRT to Mia moving up further, I think that a tier's difference betwen she and Zihark is probably unwarranted. From where I'm standing, his post-11 game would need to be fairly signifncantly better than hers in order for him to be considered better. If I'm BEXP'ing Mia in Ch. 8, Zihark needs to be BEXP'ed in Ch. 12 just to keep from losing to her. It's not as if we have a situation where Eddie Mia is some underleveled twit and Zihark comes in as a tier 2 asskicker, he also needs work to be good.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Interceptor

[Progenitus]

The problem with FE9 is that it gives you a ton of resources and BEXP for very weak enemies. Thus, if you dump enough resources on even the shitty units they'll become good. Even Bastian can solo half the map if he's given enough BEXP and stat boosters. It's not going to change the fact that he's the worst unit in the game.

So what's going to separate the good units from the bad ones in this game is how good you are with little to no resources. Units like Oscar and Boyd are still good even with minimal resources. Units like Mia are mediocre or bad.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

Edited September 27, 2009 by pen15

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The problem with Bastian and other late joining characters is that getting such resources requires you to preserve them for him. Mia's early join time means she has access to those resources when they come and doesn't and you don't have to wait to use them.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ?!

[Progenitus]

The problem with Bastian is that getting such resources requires you to preserve them for him. Mia's early join time means she has access to those resources when they come and doesn't and you don't have to wait to use them.

Mia uses resources; no one else can get those resources.

Bastian uses resources; the resources are instead sitting in the convo and no one is able to use them, and then when Bastian joins and we give it to him, no one can still use those resources.

There's no difference (other than the amount they need).

Of course I'm not saying Bastian is better than Mia, just the fact that at the rate this "tier" list is going, it'll turn into an availability fest.

Edited September 27, 2009 by pen15

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The problem with Bastian is that getting such resources requires you to preserve them for him. Mia's early join time means she has access to those resources when they come and doesn't and you don't have to wait to use them.

Mia uses resources; no one else can get those resources.

Bastian uses resources; the resources are instead sitting in the convo and no one is able to use them, and then when Bastian joins and we give it to him, no one can still use those resources.

Except that in Mia's case, those resources have been useful for a longer period.

There's no difference (other than the amount they need).

Of course I'm not saying Bastian is better than Mia, just the fact that at the rate this "tier" list is going, it'll turn into an availability fest.

As already stated, another difference is how long that item's served it use.

@Bold: You're jumping to conclusions.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ?!

[Interceptor]

Of course I'm not saying Bastian is better than Mia, just the fact that at the rate this "tier" list is going, it'll turn into an availability fest.

Why put scare quotes around "tier", smash? If the goal of the tier list is to rank units by their ability to beat the game efficiently, and the game's mechanics gravitate towards higher availibility characters contributing more, doesn't that logically result in units that are around longer being tiered higher?

I mean, if you ignore this aspect of the game, doesn't that mean that you are effectively running against the purpose of the tier list to begin with? There are no such conditions in the OP of this thread: I looked.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

You know, this isn't even true, smash. Rolf and Marcia have the same availbility, would you put them in the same tier? How about Kieran and Nephenee? Your oversimplifications don't serve any useful purpose.

[Progenitus]

Except that in Mia's case, those resources have been useful for a longer period.

Which is reflected in her "rising" up, or being better than Bastian. Being "good" for more chapters. ala, everything turns into an availability fest.

@Bold: You're jumping to conclusions.

orly

If Mia taking resources doesn't matter because we're swimming in so much resources that she can get several hundred BEXP without anyone caring, then logically we can do the same for everyone in the game. In other words, we can overpower anyone we want. And that's why it's going to turn into an availability fest.

[Dat Nick]

I really don't see the point of bitching about EXP as a resource, because nobody even lifts a finger when Boyd takes some. All units, Titania included, need experience points. If nobody's willing to explain to be the eternal paradox of how Mia getting EXP is favoritism when Boyd getting BEXP isn't, then just drop it already. Every time I ask this question, I get no response.

[Progenitus]

I really don't see the point of bitching about EXP as a resource, because nobody even lifts a finger when Boyd takes some. All units, Titania included, need experience points. If nobody's willing to explain to be the eternal paradox of how Mia getting EXP is favoritism when Boyd getting BEXP isn't, then just drop it already. Every time I ask this question, I get no response.

The difference bewteen Boyd and Mia (or any top tier vs low tier) is that Boyd is generally helping us out lots. Because he's naturally good, he has an easier time killing enemies. Mia is not as good and either kills less often, or needs more kills set up for her, both of which are bad, because the latter decreases her level and the former is more likely to hinder us.

No one is ignoring Boyd taking EXP. It's a negative of course. The difference is that Boyd's positive of helping us out overrides that. It's not the case for Mia.

[dondon151]

The problem with FE9 is that it gives you a ton of resources and BEXP for very weak enemies. Thus, if you dump enough resources on even the shitty units they'll become good. Even Bastian can solo half the map if he's given enough BEXP and stat boosters. It's not going to change the fact that he's the worst unit in the game.

So what's going to separate the good units from the bad ones in this game is how good you are with little to no resources. Units like Oscar and Boyd are still good even with minimal resources. Units like Mia are mediocre or bad.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

But the fact remains the BEXP is there and can be used. BEXP isn't like a stat booster. Stat boosters are few and in high demand, but BEXP levels are abundant. As much as I want to ignore BEXP in this tier list to overall get a better picture of who's better and who's worse (and in the process stomp Rolf down to the bottom of the list), that simply does not reflect the reality of the game.

No one is ignoring Boyd taking EXP. It's a negative of course. The difference is that Boyd's positive of helping us out overrides that. It's not the case for Mia.

This is ridiculous. Under this assumption Mia shouldn't even be played. The only instance where investing EXP into a unit in the long term yields negative results is if that unit randomly gets berserk status past a certain level and starts actually hurting your team.

[Progenitus]

But the fact remains the BEXP is there and can be used. BEXP isn't like a stat booster. Stat boosters are few and in high demand, but BEXP levels are abundant. As much as I want to ignore BEXP in this tier list to overall get a better picture of who's better and who's worse (and in the process stomp Rolf down to the bottom of the list), that simply does not reflect the reality of the game.

What? Simply because there's more BEXP than stat boosters doesn't mean BEXP is less contended for and can be given out in heaps without anyone caring.

Like, if we had one talisman, but three speedwings, the talisman isn't going to be a greater resource than the speedwing. Having less of it =/= resource being more important.

And everyone wants BEXP. Simply because we field enough top tiers so that we can dump BEXP on Mia and they aren't going to care isn't proving that MIa is any good. The fact is, one unit on a team of gods isn't going to make a difference, because the benefit of fielding Boyd/Oscar/Kieran/other top tiers outweighs a random crappy unit's suck. But if you were to use only sucky units, you would be in for a much more difficult time. That's the problem. If I'm going to use a crap tier unit like Rolf, I can't really afford to use another crap tier unit, because it's not as easy to baby, say, Rolf, Soren, and Mia simultaneously.

The difference between Top Tier units and Low Tier units that eventually compare to Top Tier units if they get X, Y, and Z that everyone else wants is that I can use as many Top Tier units as I want and it won't matter because of how little they need to wreck everything. I can't use a team of Low Tiers and expect them to ever do as well. That's why they're Low Tier. I can't use FE9 Mia AND FE9 Lucia, because both of them want all your Killing Edges and Brave Swords to be good, and there's just not enough to go around.

Yes, on a team of Top Tier units, using 1-2 crappy units doesn't matter because the Top Tier units are so uber it doesn't matter. But I CAN'T get away with 6-7 crappy units, and THAT is why those units are crappy.

This is ridiculous. Under this assumption Mia shouldn't even be played. The only instance where investing EXP into a unit in the long term yields negative results is if that unit randomly gets berserk status past a certain level and starts actually hurting your team.

Yes, pouring exp into crappy units is a negative for them, since it's exp that can't be given to anyone else.

Let me ask you this; if Rolf got 20 levels of EXP, is that better than if we didn't use Rolf at all and instead gave those 20 levels to other people on the team? Naturally, if Rolf was useful at fighting, then his positive of helping out would override that exp consumption, yet all he does is suck and fail and hold us back. Mia is not as bad as Rolf, but she's pretty awful herself.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

orly

If Mia taking resources doesn't matter because we're swimming in so much resources that she can get several hundred BEXP without anyone caring, then logically we can do the same for everyone in the game. In other words, we can overpower anyone we want. And that's why it's going to turn into an availability fest.

Largo vs Geoffrey

Tauroneo vs Geoffrey

Ilyana vs Zihark

Janaff vs Haar

I could go on but you seem stubborn so I'll leave it as is.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ?!

[Progenitus]

orly

If Mia taking resources doesn't matter because we're swimming in so much resources that she can get several hundred BEXP without anyone caring, then logically we can do the same for everyone in the game. In other words, we can overpower anyone we want. And that's why it's going to turn into an availability fest.

Largo vs Geoffrey

Tauroneo vs Geoffrey

Ilyana vs Zihark

Janaff vs Haar

That's because we're not assuming the unit with more availability is getting resources dumped on them. When was Tauroneo getting multiple speedwings and a boots? When was Ilyana getting BEXP and crap? When was Janaff getting energy drops and BEXP and crap? (and how does Largo have more availability than Geof?)

So why is Mia the exception? Why is she suddenly getting BEXP and wrath and special swords and a bunch of other crap (the Mia supporters can't make up their mind on what to give her)?

I could go on but you seem stubborn so I'll leave it as is.

I was going to make a snide comment but I'll let you slide.

Edited September 27, 2009 by pen15

[Interceptor]

And everyone wants BEXP. Simply because we field enough top tiers so that we can dump BEXP on Mia and they aren't going to care isn't proving that MIa is any good. The fact is, one unit on a team of gods isn't going to make a difference, because the benefit of fielding Boyd/Oscar/Kieran/other top tiers outweighs a random crappy unit's suck. But if you were to use only sucky units, you would be in for a much more difficult time. That's the problem. If I'm going to use a crap tier unit like Rolf, I can't really afford to use another crap tier unit, because it's not as easy to baby, say, Rolf, Soren, and Mia simultaneously.

Did you even read the post? I know that you're pretending to ignore me, but since you're referring to things that I've posted it sort of breaks down the firewall.

The top tiers also need BEXP, they don't rock for free. Boyd needed the STR/SPD to ORKO Armors, Oscar needed the SPD to double, Kieran also doesn't have enough SPD at base, Jill's bases are woefully inadequate for raping the chapter in which she begins (needs a forge and BEXP at the least), etc. The other thing is that I'm deploying units like Rhys, Ilyana, and Mist. And I still have enough BEXP to throw in a Nephenee, Soren, or Marcia. I could probably even make a college try with Rolf, and still have resources to spare.

Plus, Mia is not sucking. I'm pretty sure that I demonstrated precisely why and how she was contributing to game completion, despite not being as good as the best units (who naturally cannot be in two places at once). You fight with the army you have, Smish.

And of course, the really big problem here is that a unit's comparison when they are deployed alongside nothing but an army full of sucky units happens runs so afoul of the point of an efficiency tier list that I'm astounded to hear that you even think that such a thing is reasonable in the first place.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Interceptor