FE9 Tier list v3

[Dr. Tarrasque]

orly

If Mia taking resources doesn't matter because we're swimming in so much resources that she can get several hundred BEXP without anyone caring, then logically we can do the same for everyone in the game. In other words, we can overpower anyone we want. And that's why it's going to turn into an availability fest.

Largo vs Geoffrey

Tauroneo vs Geoffrey

Ilyana vs Zihark

Janaff vs Haar

That's because we're not assuming the unit with more availability is getting resources dumped on them. When was Tauroneo getting multiple speedwings and a boots? When was Ilyana getting BEXP and crap? When was Janaff getting energy drops and BEXP and crap? (and how does Largo have more availability than Geof?)

So why is Mia the exception? Why is she suddenly getting BEXP and wrath and special swords and a bunch of other crap (the Mia supporters can't make up their mind on what to give her)?

The listed match ups are examples of units that probably won't go above the unit they're listed against even if given such favoritism.

Wrath: Because she's around when you get (so you don't have to keep it in the convey for several chapters to use it) and the output is more beneficial with Vantage which she already has. For others to get the same combo they'd need both skills given to them. Interceptor's already explained the rest.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ?!

[Progenitus]

The listed match ups are examples of units that probably won't go above the unit they're listed against even if given such favoritism.

orly

I think if Ilyana got a speedwing for free she'd be better than Zihark, just for starters.

Wrath: Because she's around when you get (so you don't have to keep it in the convey for several chapters to use it) and the output is more beneficial with Vantage which she already has. For others to get the same combo they'd need both skills given to them.

I already explained why Vantage is minimal favoritism unless you're fielding Neph, so what's the difference between throwing wrath on mia, and throwing wrath + vantage on some random shitty unit?

[Colonel M]

EDIT: Nvm.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The listed match ups are examples of units that probably won't go above the unit they're listed against even if given such favoritism.

orly

I think if Ilyana got a speedwing for free she'd be better than Zihark, just for starters.

I doubt that.

Wrath: Because she's around when you get (so you don't have to keep it in the convey for several chapters to use it) and the output is more beneficial with Vantage which she already has. For others to get the same combo they'd need both skills given to them.

I already explained why Vantage is minimal favoritism unless you're fielding Neph, so what's the difference between throwing wrath on mia, and throwing wrath + vantage on some random shitty unit?

Greater cost since you're giving away 2 skills just to get the same result and slightly lower critical hit rate. Adept users would like Vantage too, specially Zihark considering the bonus critical from the Swordmaster class, his natural crit and the enemies having shitty luck.

[Narga_Rocks]

The listed match ups are examples of units that probably won't go above the unit they're listed against even if given such favoritism.

orly

I think if Ilyana got a speedwing for free she'd be better than Zihark, just for starters.

Considering you make such a huge point of Zihark's durable in chapter 20 after he's gone through 9 chapters of Mia-like durability (which you claim is horrid) I don't see how that flows with the statement you just made. Also, do you get the whole opportunity cost thing? 400 bexp on a single unit in a game with this much bexp carries an extremely small opportunity cost. It's virtually microscopic. The only way for a person to equate that kind of bexp to a speedwing in this particular game is if they don't comprehend opportunity cost. And I don't mean "almost got it, pretty close, just not quite grasping it but nearly there" or anything. I mean "duh, what's opportunity cost mean? Is that a dance contest?" or something similarly stupid.

Now, in RD, if Titania and Haar have access to two wings then in that game the opportunity cost is small, but even that isn't as small as the 400 bexp. Heck, Gatrie and the 3-3 crown isn't even as small of an opportunity cost.

Why do you constantly suggest doing things that aren't even close to what we are doing and act like it's even remotely the same? Oh, I think I answered that two paragraphs ago.

edit: and I agree with ?!, she still won't be better with a free +2 spd.

Wrath: Because she's around when you get (so you don't have to keep it in the convey for several chapters to use it) and the output is more beneficial with Vantage which she already has. For others to get the same combo they'd need both skills given to them.

I already explained why Vantage is minimal favoritism unless you're fielding Neph, so what's the difference between throwing wrath on mia, and throwing wrath + vantage on some random shitty unit?

Well, you happen to be wrong. First, other units don't have natural crit. Second, how often would you say Neph is fielded? If it's half the time, then clearly a fair portion of the time Mia is way better for wrath than anyone else is. You've completely glossed over that little detail. Third, the unit needs to be 2HKOd or better in order for it to be viable, especially when you remove the natural crit of a swordmaster, otherwise you are practically asking for them to die if they don't already have good avo. If they already have good avo, well, vantage is a waste anyway, and so is wrath since you should be using it to improve the entire team, not just one unit. Forth, since we are assuming Mia is on the field, you can have a unit with vantage + guard or vantage + adept or vantage + something, and a unit with vantage + wrath, whereas if you do something ditzy like give another unit wrath then you could still give something good to Mia, but it's not going to be the same because she's the one with natural crit and access to the vague katti and pretty good avo for someone that gets none from supports. So yeah, other units are going to be more likely to die from this action than Mia would anyway, so it is quite different actually. Again, you simply aren't getting the whole opportunity cost thing, are you?

Let's use numbers:

Oscar w/out wrath: 8

Mia w/out wrath: 3

Oscar w/ wrath: 10

Mia w/ wrath: 8

16 vs. 13. Team improves as a whole, since Oscars durability was fine already and offence better than Mia's (except she doubles a little more and her supports help to offset the str difference and lance v. sword difference), so why give him wrath instead of Mia? Now, I'm not claiming those numbers are accurate or anything, since you can't really compress this into numbers, and Oscar is likely still better than Mia even with wrath, but the point is that since we are assuming Mia is deployed if she's trying to get wrath, the fortunes of your team as a whole are improved by giving Mia wrath compared to giving it to someone else. Actually, the fact you keep harping on Mia's abilities without wrath isn't helping your case at all, considering if she's used then clearly it's best for the team to give wrath to her since all those others are oh so much better so if they are fielded then giving them wrath won't improve the team by as much.

As for the other less good units, you frequently do this: make statements and not prove them in any way. Sure, sometimes you use numbers, other times you just say: Oh, sure, A can use that, but so can B. and then leave it at that like you've proven something. You haven't actually gone into what, say, Calill can actually do with vantage + wrath to show how she's doing more than what Mia can do or similar to it.

edit: And ?! brings up a similar point to one of the things I said, vantage goes on other units without needing to give them wrath just fine. This allows you to have Zihark with vantage + adept (boost his durability even more, I guess, not to mention helps him from chapter 15 to 20 before his Brom hits A) and still get Vantage + wrath. Seems to me that the team is better this way than giving some other nub (with less crit than Mia) vantage + wrath and having a Mia fielded with Vantage + nothing and having Zihark stuck with Mia-like durability until his support really starts kicking.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

What? Simply because there's more BEXP than stat boosters doesn't mean BEXP is less contended for and can be given out in heaps without anyone caring.

Like, if we had one talisman, but three speedwings, the talisman isn't going to be a greater resource than the speedwing. Having less of it =/= resource being more important.

I could respond to this in a detailed post, but I believe the following image will suffice:

Of course, I hope I don't get warned again. I did put all of 10 minutes into that graph.

Edited September 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

What? Simply because there's more BEXP than stat boosters doesn't mean BEXP is less contended for and can be given out in heaps without anyone caring.

Like, if we had one talisman, but three speedwings, the talisman isn't going to be a greater resource than the speedwing. Having less of it =/= resource being more important.

I could respond to this in a detailed post, but I believe the following image will suffice:

Of course, I hope I don't get warned again. I did put all of 10 minutes into that graph.

I regret that your image wouldn't fit into my sig, because I think that picture easily earns a place in my sig. That has got to be the most I've laughed in a while on this site, maybe ever, and considering Interceptor's existence, that's saying a lot.

Under Soviet Fire Emblem rules:

When demand is high and supply is low what is the cost of a resource? (medium)

When demand is high and supply is equally high what is the cost of a resource? (medium)

When demand is low and supply is (more than the demand, anyway) what is the cost of the resource? (medium)

When ....? (medium)

So basically, no matter what the circumstance, everything is equal, right?

(Oh, and it doesn't matter that a speedwing is better than a talisman, if there were 3 speedwings and 1 talisman, the cost is determined by the demand (more importantly opportunity cost) for the items. So, if there were only 2 characters that received major gains from a speedwing but for some odd reason there were also two characters that received major gains from a talisman, the talisman would cost more to take. Since this won't actually happen, the cost of the speedwing is higher (provided there are at least 4 units receiving major gains, though since somehow Nephenee isn't enough to prevent Vantage from being given out to just anyone in order to sandbag Mia, I'd say you need at least 6 or 7 units receiving major gains from a wing just to push the cost of getting a wing to a higher cost than getting a talisman))

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

EDIT: nvm im an idiot

I literally realized it 3 seconds after posting

also resizing and sigging

Edited September 28, 2009 by Germany

[Colonel M]

I only wish this was 400 pixels tall so I could sig that. ;_;

ITT dondon is ridiculous.

[Narga_Rocks]

I only wish this was 400 pixels tall so I could sig that. ;_;

ITT dondon is ridiculous.

Save it and re-size it. That's what I did with the nuclear explosion pictures I found. Guess you'd have to put it on imageshack or something afterwards, though. Or we could nicely ask Dondon to put a smaller version on imageshack.

[Dat Nick]

Nuhehehehehehe.

That's one "Nu" and eight "He's". And if it isn't, then I'm too lazy to count how many it really is.

I just want to say that dondon wins the whole fucking topic

[Progenitus]

I doubt that.

Ilyana doubles more often now, and since she hits res she'll typically have the higher att, resulting in cleaner 2HKOs (or just more damage).

She also 2-ranges.

Zihark has more durability, but that's only after his supports. Before, he's generally getting 3HKO'd and Ilyana gets 2HKO'd, but he takes player phase counters way more often. By the time Zihark actually gets his supports up, it's promotion time, and Ilyana just got staves to counteract it. And Ilyana has shade anyway.

Greater cost since you're giving away 2 skills just to get the same result and slightly lower critical hit rate. Adept users would like Vantage too, specially Zihark considering the bonus critical from the Swordmaster class, his natural crit and the enemies having shitty luck.

The team without Mia is not forced to field Mia, especially since Mia is a crappy unit, and thus can giev the wrath to some other random nub tier idiot.

I could respond to this in a detailed post, but I believe the following image will suffice:

me: BEXP is a resource

dumbdumb151: WE HAVE TONS OF BEXP

me: having more of it does not mean that it's a free resource that can be given out freely

dumbdumb151: IMMA TAKE YOUR POST OUT OF CONTEXT, LUL SOVIET FIRE EMBLEM

tools: LOLDUMBDUMB151 IS SO AWSUM

Edited September 28, 2009 by pen15

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Greater cost since you're giving away 2 skills just to get the same result and slightly lower critical hit rate. Adept users would like Vantage too, specially Zihark considering the bonus critical from the Swordmaster class, his natural crit and the enemies having shitty luck.

The team without Mia is not forced to field Mia, especially since Mia is a crappy unit, and thus can giev the wrath to some other random nub tier idiot.

... What the fuck is this shit?

[Progenitus]

... What the fuck is this shit?

Comparisons between two units should be unit A + team vs unit B + team.

So of course if unit A is Mia and unit B is some random noob, unit B's team is not forced to use Mia.

[Colonel M]

tools: LOLDUMBDUMB151 IS SO AWSUM

Mockery is seen as similair to idiocy in my eyes. Don't get on the bad side of me smash.

As far as I know you're the only person who disagrees with BEXP argument. I have no qualms to Mia rising. I might double check with Geoff though (as in cancelling out Killing Edges in the comparison) but I think Mia will win either way.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

lets just say

Ike

Titania

Oscar

Boyd

Soren

Rhys

Mist

Mia

Mordecai

Volke

Titania and Mordecai dont even need BEXP, giving it to them is a waste as they are stupidly powerful for now anyway and consume far too much of it just to gain a level. So this gives us 8 units who need BEXP.

Please give me some plausible reason why Mia cannot receive at least 1/8th of this BEXP. We are using her, after all.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Germany

[dondon151]

It's funny because the picture isn't even related to the post you quoted.

Then again taking things out of context is what everyone on this site does best anyway.

Oh, and it doesn't matter that a speedwing is better than a talisman, if there were 3 speedwings and 1 talisman, the cost is determined by the demand (more importantly opportunity cost) for the items. So, if there were only 2 characters that received major gains from a speedwing but for some odd reason there were also two characters that received major gains from a talisman, the talisman would cost more to take. Since this won't actually happen, the cost of the speedwing is higher (provided there are at least 4 units receiving major gains, though since somehow Nephenee isn't enough to prevent Vantage from being given out to just anyone in order to sandbag Mia, I'd say you need at least 6 or 7 units receiving major gains from a wing just to push the cost of getting a wing to a higher cost than getting a talisman)

Narga_Rocks basically hit it right on the head. The point of the supply-demand curve wasn't to show where Soviet FE was in relation to optimal decision-making (in fact I'm pretty sure that line is total BS, but it's still a humorous thinly veiled jab that people in this topic like to do nowadays), it was to get across the point that variable supply and demand for resources ultimately decides what resources can or cannot be distributed with minimal penalty. In your Talisman and Speedwings example, Speedwings are in much greater demand than Talisman, despite also being in greater supply. Therefore, more units care if the Speedwings are taken than if the Talisman is taken.

With BEXP and stat boosters, there is a shitload of BEXP in this game. Astrid and Tormod don't really seem to mind being severely underleveled at join time, because there is enough BEXP to solve that problem without seriously hurting other members of the team. Marcia and Jill aren't particularly outstanding at base either, but no one seems to care that giving them a couple of levels of BEXP is the standard when considering their high tier positions.

Also consider that when a character siphons off a stat booster, he affects the performance of another character by a significant amount. However, if we have an 11-person core army, the 11th unit affects the performance of 10 characters by negligible amounts, small enough that it doesn't need to be considered. The 11th unit gains 1 level and the other 10 lose .1 levels. Does that .1 level prevent them from hitting some sort of offensive or defensive threshold? (The answer, obviously, is no, because FE only recalculates stats at whole number levels). What if the 11th unit needs 10 levels? The other 10 lose 1 level each. Does that 1 level prevent them from hitting some sort of offensive or defensive threshold? For some units, 1 level matters. For others, it doesn't really help them to any significant degree, so it's OK to allocate that BEXP to a unit that really needs it.

I don't like this system myself because it's so easy to fix characters in this game, but either we can actually debate Fire Emblem 9 or debate "Fire Emblem 9," which is Fire Emblem 9 tailored to our specific likings.

Edited September 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

The team without Mia is not forced to field Mia, especially since Mia is a crappy unit, and thus can giev the wrath to some other random nub tier idiot.

By that logic Zihark is a crappy unit until his supports start working. Considering she starts with Vantage, she easily matches durability at least until Zihark hits BC Brom/Ilyana, and if he's waiting for Muarim it will take longer before he has a +15 avo. The difference between them otherwise is adept, that's it. So if she's crappy, then your hero Zihark is also crappy until around chapter 18, or 19 in the case he's waiting for Muarim. Which would really hurt his chances of staying in upper mid. Unless you think his 13 to 18 % chance of adepting before promotion (24.31% to 32.76% in two hits) is enough that he's not crappy but Mia still is crappy.

Honestly, just because you hate a unit and are probably still sore about how high she went in the RD list doesn't make her crappy. Also, you've yet to prove how she's crappy, and the rest of us have done a lot to prove she isn't.

me: BEXP is a resource

dumbdumb151: WE HAVE TONS OF BEXP

me: having more of it does not mean that it's a free resource that can be given out freely

dumbdumb151: IMMA TAKE YOUR POST OUT OF CONTEXT, LUL SOVIET FIRE EMBLEM

tools: LOLDUMBDUMB151 IS SO AWSUM

What you aren't getting is that we aren't saying it's free, just that the cost is extremely minor. Think of it like this: 15 units, 15 speedwings. That's basically the situation you are looking at for bexp. In fact, you may choose to use 12 units yet you still have 15 speedwings. Are you honestly going to tell me that you think that the bexp situation is in any way shape or form similar to 10 units and like 2 speedwings? The point is that you are equating things that can clearly be seen to have vastly different opportunity costs for use.

Oh well, looks like your reality distortion field is alive and well.

Please give me some plausible reason why Mia cannot receive at least 1/8th of this BEXP. We are using her, after all.

I've got an answer for you:

His anti-Mia campaign didn't work on RD, so he figures he'd try it out here.

Wait, that's answering why he's doing this, not why she can't receive it. Never mind.

Another edit, I like the irony of this all. He doesn't want Mia getting bexp because he'd rather give it to high tiers (though we've all basically proven it doesn't actually hurt the high tiers at all to let Mia have some) and yet he wanted to give paragon and a crown to Makalov and energy drops to Lyre and any time we suggested that other units use stuff better he started whining that we were trying to use teams consisting of only high tiers (even though the units that can use stuff better wasn't even restricted to upper mid or higher). I'm pretty sure there are other examples, and he constantly complains about people using teams of only high tiers but when he tries to sandbag units he despises it generally results in this type of stuff.

Well, hypocrisy is another one of Smash's staples, so again this is par for the course.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Don't get on the bad side of me smash.

Oooh, I'm so scared.

Titania and Mordecai dont even need BEXP, giving it to them is a waste as they are stupidly powerful for now anyway and consume far too much of it just to gain a level. So this gives us 8 units who need BEXP.

Please give me some plausible reason why Mia cannot receive at least 1/8th of this BEXP. We are using her, after all.

Whatever BEXP you give Mia, either you give to the other unit being compared to (Geoffrey in this example) or you distribute it among the team.

As an example, if Mia got 400 BEXP, then Geoffrey gets 400 BEXP to distribute. Since he joins late and doesn't need 400 right now anyway (as he doesn't even exist), the 400 BEXP could instead go to other teammates. 100 BEXP to 4 people, or 400 to one person, it doesn't matter.

With BEXP and stat boosters, there is a shitload of BEXP in this game. Astrid and Tormod don't really seem to mind being severely underleveled at join time, because there is enough BEXP to solve that problem without seriously hurting other members of the team. Marcia and Jill aren't particularly outstanding at base either, but no one seems to care that giving them a couple of levels of BEXP is the standard when considering their high tier positions.

400 BEXP is enough to give a unit several levels. At LEAST two for a majority of the game (since it doesn't even take 200 BEXP to level up until you hit 20/8), and it's more like 3-4 for 1st tiers. Do you realize what 3-4 levels can do for a unit?

A guy like Boyd already gets 1.35 spd, in addition to more HP/str/def/etc. This is almost as good, if not better, than simply giving him a speedwing.

What about Brom? holy crap, three free levels with teh KW? +1.65 spd. That's already almost the same as a speedwing, on top of moar stats in everything else (especially since when Brom joins, he's not invincible, so even the +def is handy).

etc. etc.

So basically, you just contradicted yourself.

"SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE'D BE MORE SPEEDWINGS THAN TALISMANS IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOESN'T MAKE THE TALISMAN MORE VALUABLE"

"BUT THERE'S LOTS OF BEXP IN THIS GAME SO IT'S FINE IF WE GIVE IT OUT LIKE CANDY DESPITE THE FACT THAT BEXP IS GODLY"

also...

but no one seems to care that giving them a couple of levels of BEXP is the standard when considering their high tier positions.

This is actually part of the reason why I think people like Muarim and MOrdy and Stefan and Geoffrey and even Lethe should rise, due to their high bases and not requiring resources to be good early on (Lethe should only rise slightly though, since she REALLY sucks once everyone is promoted).

I also think some of the units who start off bad could, or should, drop. Zihark could probably drop to mid (though if Mia is magically in mid, then Zihark needs to stay at least a tier above. Zihark in mid and Mia in lower mid would be the most accurate). Muarim could possibly be better than Astrid/Mak (I'll need to look over numbers again).

I'm not saying that BEXP should never be handed out, but it must at LEAST be considered a disadvantage.

Don't take flawed logic OTHER people used and try to throw it on me. You'll have to try again.

Edited September 28, 2009 by pen15

[Narga_Rocks]

Titania and Mordecai dont even need BEXP, giving it to them is a waste as they are stupidly powerful for now anyway and consume far too much of it just to gain a level. So this gives us 8 units who need BEXP.

Please give me some plausible reason why Mia cannot receive at least 1/8th of this BEXP. We are using her, after all.

Whatever BEXP you give Mia, either you give to the other unit being compared to (Geoffrey in this example) or you distribute it among the team.

As an example, if Mia got 400 BEXP, then Geoffrey gets 400 BEXP to distribute. Since he joins late and doesn't need 400 right now anyway (as he doesn't even exist), the 400 BEXP could instead go to other teammates. 100 BEXP to 4 people, or 400 to one person, it doesn't matter.

And they did.

With BEXP and stat boosters, there is a shitload of BEXP in this game. Astrid and Tormod don't really seem to mind being severely underleveled at join time, because there is enough BEXP to solve that problem without seriously hurting other members of the team. Marcia and Jill aren't particularly outstanding at base either, but no one seems to care that giving them a couple of levels of BEXP is the standard when considering their high tier positions.

400 BEXP is enough to give a unit several levels. At LEAST two for a majority of the game (since it doesn't even take 200 BEXP to level up until you hit 20/8), and it's more like 3-4 for 1st tiers. Do you realize what 3-4 levels can do for a unit?

A guy like Boyd already gets 1.35 spd, in addition to more HP/str/def/etc. This is almost as good, if not better, than simply giving him a speedwing.

What about Brom? holy crap, three free levels with teh KW? +1.65 spd. That's already almost the same as a speedwing, on top of moar stats in everything else (especially since when Brom joins, he's not invincible, so even the +def is handy).

etc. etc.

Dude, you should really start reading Int's posts more. It would prevent you from saying crap that's been disproven before you even brought it up. Honestly, she can take her little bit, and the other units can too. If you deny her 400 bexp after other units have already taken theirs, aren't you giving them more "favouritism" than they deserve, too? Also, what if Brom's not in play? Also, Int got Boyd up to ORKOing every enemy but the boss in chapter 8. What good is the extra bexp going to do him there? You have so very much bexp that your arguments are stupid. If there was only enough bexp to give one or two units a bump, it would be different. That simply isn't the case. This is why it is okay to give Mia bexp, but not to give away stat boosters. You may notice we haven't yet tried to give her a stat booster. Just give up on the bexp whining, everyone else realizes you are being a stubborn fool, so you are just making yourself look bad.

So basically, you just contradicted yourself.

"SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE'D BE MORE SPEEDWINGS THAN TALISMANS IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOESN'T MAKE THE TALISMAN MORE VALUABLE"

"BUT THERE'S LOTS OF BEXP IN THIS GAME SO IT'S FINE IF WE GIVE IT OUT LIKE CANDY DESPITE THE FACT THAT BEXP IS GODLY"

You really can't read, can you? And what's with your stupid caps? And what's with your making stuff up that people aren't saying?

Also, if you could read and comprehend, you'd notice that the focus isn't how many of something there is, but the demand in comparison to the supply. The supply is so very huge for bexp that the demand works out and everyone can have some. That's not the case for 2 speedwings and a bunch of units. However, when it's something like a talisman that has no demand, it's fine. There is actually no contradiction to see there, unless you are incapable of following the logic.

also...

but no one seems to care that giving them a couple of levels of BEXP is the standard when considering their high tier positions.

This is actually part of the reason why I think people like Muarim and MOrdy and Stefan and Geoffrey and even Lethe should rise, due to their high bases and not requiring resources to be good early on (Lethe should only rise slightly though, since she REALLY sucks once everyone is promoted).

Don't take flawed logic OTHER people used and try to throw it on me. You'll have to try again.

So, basically, you think we should be ranking units in a game that hoards bexp for no purpose? This game has bexp. It exists. There is tons. Since we are ranking units in their ability to beat the game, don't you think we should make use of it? As such, analyze what they do when it's given in a smart way.

And your "You'll have to try again" line screams of arrogance. Now, that's fine and all when you are actually right, but it looks stupid when you are so very wrong. Well, maybe it's not fine when a person is actually right, but at least then other people may be like "urg, can't really dispute that, urg" or something when you are correct and arrogant. Basically, all you are saying now is "My Reality Distortion Field is stronger than reality, so you'll have to try again to see if you can break it". Well, congratulations, you are one of the most stubborn individuals on this site.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

"SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE'D BE MORE SPEEDWINGS THAN TALISMANS IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOESN'T MAKE THE TALISMAN MORE VALUABLE"

"BUT THERE'S LOTS OF BEXP IN THIS GAME SO IT'S FINE IF WE GIVE IT OUT LIKE CANDY DESPITE THE FACT THAT BEXP IS GODLY"

You didn't read my post close enough, then. 1 unit gets one level by taking .1 levels away from 10 other units. Now, I know that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but considering how negligible that one tenth of a level is, you're essentially getting a level for free.

Some units like Brom and Nephenee want more BEXP because they want more AS from the KW. That's great (by the way, why should they get BEXP in the first place! lol!). Then you've got units like Mordecai and Titania and Muarim who don't need BEXP period, and also dudes like Oscar, Boyd, Kieran, etc. who really don't care past a certain point (got atk problems? forge).

I know full well from playing FE9 HM that you don't need to distribute all of your BEXP for your units to rape face. Actually I once had enough BEXP left over in like chapter 25 to get Rolf from level 1 to level 16 because I felt like doing triangle attacks.

Also because I missed this edit:

me: BEXP is a resource

dumbdumb151: WE HAVE TONS OF BEXP

me: having more of it does not mean that it's a free resource that can be given out freely

dumbdumb151: IMMA TAKE YOUR POST OUT OF CONTEXT, LUL SOVIET FIRE EMBLEM

tools: LOLDUMBDUMB151 IS SO AWSUM

You're funny because your name is like penis. No, seriously, I think we've all gotten past the point where we titter like prepubescent schoolboys upon hearing the names of our little wee-wees.

Edited September 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

You're funny because your name is like penis.

And he's a ... Nevermind. Still, makes it kinda appropriate, right?

[Progenitus]

You didn't read my post close enough, then. 1 unit gets one level by taking .1 levels away from 10 other units. Now, I know that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but considering how negligible that one tenth of a level is, you're essentially getting a level for free.

Or you could concentrate the BEXP onto fewer units. For example, if some unit is getting 1 level of BEXP, I could have given 0.2 levels to 5 other units, or 1 level to 1 other unit. Which can make a bigger impact on at an individual level.

Some units like Brom and Nephenee want more BEXP because they want more AS from the KW. That's great (by the way, why should they get BEXP in the first place! lol!). Then you've got units like Mordecai and Titania and Muarim who don't need BEXP period, and also dudes like Oscar, Boyd, Kieran, etc. who really don't care past a certain point (got atk problems? forge).

I know full well from playing FE9 HM that you don't need to distribute all of your BEXP for your units to rape face. Actually I once had enough BEXP left over in like chapter 25 to get Rolf from level 1 to level 16 because I felt like doing triangle attacks.

Again, the point is this...

The difference between Top Tier units and Low Tier units that eventually compare to Top Tier units if they get X, Y, and Z that everyone else wants is that I can use as many Top Tier units as I want and it won't matter because of how little they need to wreck everything. I can't use a team of Low Tiers and expect them to ever do as well. That's why they're Low Tier. I can't use FE9 Mia AND FE9 Lucia, because both of them want all your Killing Edges and Brave Swords to be good, and there's just not enough to go around.

Yes, on a team of Top Tier units, using 1-2 crappy units doesn't matter because the Top Tier units are so uber it doesn't matter. But I CAN'T get away with 6-7 crappy units, and THAT is why those units are crappy.

The problem with FE9 is that it gives you a ton of resources and BEXP for very weak enemies. Thus, if you dump enough resources on even the shitty units they'll become good. Even Bastian can solo half the map if he's given enough BEXP and stat boosters. It's not going to change the fact that he's the worst unit in the game.

So what's going to separate the good units from the bad ones in this game is how good you are with little to no resources. Units like Oscar and Boyd are still good even with minimal resources. Units like Mia are mediocre or bad.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

Anyway, I actually have a test to study for, which I should be spending time on over idiots who are illiterate or trolling.

Edited September 28, 2009 by pen15

[dondon151]

Or you could concentrate the BEXP onto fewer units. For example, if some unit is getting 1 level of BEXP, I could have given 0.2 levels to 5 other units, or 1 level to 1 other unit. Which can make a bigger impact on at an individual level.

I was suggesting that you concentrate the BEXP onto fewer units...

Again, the point is this...

The difference between Top Tier units and Low Tier units that eventually compare to Top Tier units if they get X, Y, and Z that everyone else wants is that I can use as many Top Tier units as I want and it won't matter because of how little they need to wreck everything. I can't use a team of Low Tiers and expect them to ever do as well. That's why they're Low Tier. I can't use FE9 Mia AND FE9 Lucia, because both of them want all your Killing Edges and Brave Swords to be good, and there's just not enough to go around.

Yes, on a team of Top Tier units, using 1-2 crappy units doesn't matter because the Top Tier units are so uber it doesn't matter. But I CAN'T get away with 6-7 crappy units, and THAT is why those units are crappy.

On a team with Rutger, Dieck, Lance, and Allen, I can get away with using Dorothy because her subpar performance doesn't really matter (also because she's supporting Saul). Thank you for telling us the universally known fact that crappy units don't work well with other crappy units in Fire Emblem, which implies the assumption we're all familiar with, that the concept of a core team usually includes of slew of good characters.

And in FE9 especially, bad units aren't locked to bad starting stats because of BEXP, so the difference between the uber team and the crappy team is considerably less than in other FE games.

So what's going to separate the good units from the bad ones in this game is how good you are with little to no resources. Units like Oscar and Boyd are still good even with minimal resources. Units like Mia are mediocre or bad.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

Do you want to discuss Fire Emblem 9 or "Fire Emblem 9?"

Anyway, I actually have a test to study for, which I should be spending time on over idiots who are illiterate or trolling.

:life card:

Edited September 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

You didn't read my post close enough, then. 1 unit gets one level by taking .1 levels away from 10 other units. Now, I know that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but considering how negligible that one tenth of a level is, you're essentially getting a level for free.

Or you could concentrate the BEXP onto fewer units. For example, if some unit is getting 1 level of BEXP, I could have given 0.2 levels to 5 other units, or 1 level to 1 other unit. Which can make a bigger impact on at an individual level.

So basically, what you are saying is that in a team of 6 units that includes Mia, make it a team of 5 that doesn't. Well, now we aren't really ranking Mia anymore. Try again. You are also constantly ignoring that there is basically a threshold where once a unit reaches that point they'd need like 4 or 5 levels extra to make a difference, which is kinda extreme. Take Boyd in chapter 8. I'm not going to look at the numbers for a level 10 Boyd, but I'm assuming he'd need a large boost before he does the only thing he wasn't before: ORKO the boss. The normal profit from doing this is small: 1 enemy. The opportunity cost is high: Other units don't get improvements against other enemies. So that's not happening. You can do an economic analysis this way on each of your units, but you'll generally end up with: Spread bexp around. If not completely equally, then it will usually involve getting the weaker units closer to par rather than the stronger units farther above, since it will make your team as a whole stronger.

Besides, start with nobody has any bexp:

Give Mia 400. Can't, favouritism.

Give Smish Phonetic 400. Can't, favouritism.

Give...

End result: nobody gets any.

I'm sorry, you can't say that giving Mia 1/8 of our bexp is favouritism by suggesting other units get more than 400 bexp. That would be a higher amount than we tried to give Mia in the first place. It makes no sense.

Some units like Brom and Nephenee want more BEXP because they want more AS from the KW. That's great (by the way, why should they get BEXP in the first place! lol!). Then you've got units like Mordecai and Titania and Muarim who don't need BEXP period, and also dudes like Oscar, Boyd, Kieran, etc. who really don't care past a certain point (got atk problems? forge).

I know full well from playing FE9 HM that you don't need to distribute all of your BEXP for your units to rape face. Actually I once had enough BEXP left over in like chapter 25 to get Rolf from level 1 to level 16 because I felt like doing triangle attacks.

Again, the point is this...

The difference between Top Tier units and Low Tier units that eventually compare to Top Tier units if they get X, Y, and Z that everyone else wants is that I can use as many Top Tier units as I want and it won't matter because of how little they need to wreck everything. I can't use a team of Low Tiers and expect them to ever do as well. That's why they're Low Tier. I can't use FE9 Mia AND FE9 Lucia, because both of them want all your Killing Edges and Brave Swords to be good, and there's just not enough to go around.

Yes, on a team of Top Tier units, using 1-2 crappy units doesn't matter because the Top Tier units are so uber it doesn't matter. But I CAN'T get away with 6-7 crappy units, and THAT is why those units are crappy.

The problem with FE9 is that it gives you a ton of resources and BEXP for very weak enemies. Thus, if you dump enough resources on even the shitty units they'll become good. Even Bastian can solo half the map if he's given enough BEXP and stat boosters. It's not going to change the fact that he's the worst unit in the game.

So what's going to separate the good units from the bad ones in this game is how good you are with little to no resources. Units like Oscar and Boyd are still good even with minimal resources. Units like Mia are mediocre or bad.

If the idea that we can just throw resources and BEXP at anyone we want continues, we may as well tier people based on the number of chapters they can fight in and call it a day.

Anyway, I actually have a test to study for, which I should be spending time on over idiots who are illiterate or trolling.

So, basically your idea of bexp is to completely ignore it? That's retarded. We are playing Fire Emblem PoR. We are not playing "Smash's Fire Emblem PoR". We have bexp, we use it to make the team stronger. You don't give units more bexp than is reasonable. We judge what is reasonable by what a unit can take without hurting the rest of the team by more than they get. Clearly, dumbing 1/2 our bexp on a single unit hurts the team as a whole. At the same time, clearly using some for each unit will improve the team as a whole.

And stop correlating bexp with stat boosters. That just makes you look stupid. And Boyd/Oscar are better with the bexp Int gave them. They needed it to double more (Oscar) and ORKO more (Boyd). If they didn't get it, they are worse too. So everyone gets it because the whole team needs it to perform better, and Boyd's and Oscar's position is now judged based on the way in which they are doing now.

And yes, the number of chapters they can fight in is important. It isn't the only thing, though, because you can't just dump 800 bexp onto someone. A good starting point is 1/x, where x is the number of units you are using. After that, giving more or less can be justified or not based on good arguments. Doing anything else is nuts because we have this bexp and not using it does not give a realistic outlook on how the units do in this game.

Oh, and you may as well use it early, considering using 400 in chapter 10 is better than saving that 400 until chapter 20 because you get 10 chapters more out of it. What's more, this isn't going to affect anything much aside from help units with weaker base stats that arrive pre chapter 15 against units that start promoted with better bases that arrive post chapter 17. Thing is, that's the way it should be, because this game just happens to have bexp, so while in other games a unit with low bases is going to be useless for a while before it climbs out of it's hole, that shouldn't happen in this game because we don't suck.

As for anyone against the idea that this helps units like Mia against units like Geoffrey, too bad for him. He can still have some bexp, just like she had. Also, the whole "well, he doesn't need that 400 bexp because blah blah blah so it goes to other units and that's an advantage he has over Mia" thing needs a qualifier:

"well, he doesn't need that 400 bexp because blah blah blah so it goes to other units and that's an minor advantage he has over Mia".

Reason being that 80 bexp spread amongst 5 units isn't going to be a huge difference. Also, as for the whole "well you can give 400 bexp to some other unit and focus it on just the one unit" is crap considering we can already give that unit 400 bexp easy without Mia's share, since there is enough for all. As such, you are basically suggesting that being able to give 800 bexp to some other unit is justifiable but giving 400 bexp to Mia isn't. That's crap.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks