FE9 Tier list v3

[Rodykitty]

Just give Mia the BEXP.

[Interceptor]

The argument ceased being about giving Mia BEXP quite some time ago. It's now a more general resource distribution argument, where several people try to convince a lone holdout that he's bad at economics.

I think that Chapter 8 is the proof of Mia's worthiness. When you can obliterate that chapter whilst simultaneously getting her to level 10 and still having over 900 BEXP left over, that means it hardly matters at all that you just levelled her up. Level 10 is the sweet spot where she's likely doubling and 3HKO'ing the left-side Armors, which is a big deal since Ike can't do it. The rest of her performance just builds on that initial bump: she does not need more BEXP thereafter, although it helps like it does with everyone else (even the Top tiers need BEXP to stay at full throttle).

My team in the Mia playthrough is now at chapter 18, and all of my fighters (Boyd, Oscar, Kieran, Astrid, Mia, Ilyana) are now at least 20/4 - 20/5. Titania is now 20/11. I still have over 1600 BEXP unspent. I could literally, as dondon suggested, raise Rolf from nothingness and use him in a Triangle attack if I wanted to (well, if I hadn't given Oscar axes on promo, anyway). I don't even think that I'm going to continue at this point, because it's getting boring. Everyone ORKO's almost everything now, nobody can die (I don't even keep supporters together anymore, it's pointless) and the ones that don't could either be fixed by a BEXP dump, or they are like Mia and are 3HKO'ing with a Killing Edge anyway, aka they ORKO so often that it doesn't matter.

The BEXP-as-a-major-negative arugment is dead. You have to be Rolf for it to be a big deal.

[Colonel M]

Alright, just so we're clear. Ether's comparison was slightly skewerd, but anyway I still agree with Mia > Geoffrey. Here I'm just doing nitpicking.

- Killing Edge is broken by now.

- Geoffrey is easily Level 14 (377 BEXP) - 44.95 HP | 19.5 Str | 9.75 Mag | 18.65 Skl | 21.55 Spd | 12.6 Luck | 22.35 Def | 10.35 Res. How is Mia winning Atk again? Geoffrey in C26 fails to double 2 Snipers, 2 Paladins, 1 Cat, Swordmasters, and Bertram. If he gets a level up he can double the 2 Snipers and Paladins. The Swordmasters can easily be picked off with Brave Lance. Man Bertram is durable (49 HP | 25 Def is hard to pierce).

- Canto nor Bows (even 1-2 range) were not included as arguments in the comparison.

- Durability, which is easily in Geoffrey's favor. Taking the highest Atk Warrior (33 with WTA) and the guy still just about 4RKOes, 5 if we allow that HP figure to round up. Not to mention he won't always hit Geoffrey (53% chance if he holds a Lance, down to 43 if he has his Bow out).

- Possibility of Sol, since he levels easily he only has to hit a certain level of AS to be good. Level 18 is about the maximum. If we really want to argue full BEXP at this point it takes 1023 BEXP, though keep in mind this is a lot less due to leveling on the field.

- Possibility of holding the Knight Ward permenantly. +2 Def is lovely on a unit that already has good durability.

Though these were likely missed, I don't really give much of caring due to Mia would still roflstomp Geoffrey in availability anyway and she doubles more enemies than him (the Swordmasters, for example).

---

Also I'm a bit weary on Jill > Oscar and Keiran. Flight is cool and all, but she fails to double some of the units that Oscar and Keiran can (Keiran's bonus being ORKOing) and the vast majority of the utility work can be done by these guys.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

Also I'm a bit weary on Jill > Oscar and Keiran. Flight is cool and all, but she fails to double some of the units that Oscar and Keiran can (Keiran's bonus being ORKOing) and the vast majority of the utility work can be done by these guys.

Jill/Oscar/Kieran have been brought up several times and it was generally decided that Jill's few chapters of not doubling(where she's pretty handy regardless) make up for when she ties them in stats and does the same stuff while flying. You're welcome to make a comparison however, if only to coutner this Mia explosion that doesn't really seem to be going anywhere.

[Tino]

the vast majority of the utility work can be done by these guys.

Similarly the vast majority of the enemies Jill KOes in the same amount of rounds as Kieran and Oscar do.

So it's kind of a weak argument.

[Interceptor]

You're welcome to make a comparison however, if only to coutner this Mia explosion that doesn't really seem to be going anywhere.

You seem to be pretty overtly hostile to Mia or discussion about her, which is something that I don't really understand.

WRT the rest, I wouldn't say that it's not going anywhere, I'd say that groundwork has been laid for a strong argument to move her up. All that's left is for the arguments to be made. I'd say that Zihark's position is precarious, whether one moves or both of them do. Consider that just going on the results of my own experiment, Zihark needs considerably more attention than Mia to operate at her stock performance in Ch. 12 and later, never mind what it takes to actually beat her. They are very simliar statistically, so it will probably break on supports, skill use, and the worth of Ch 8-10. IMO.

[-Cynthia-]

You seem to be pretty overtly hostile to Mia or discussion about her, which is something that I don't really understand.

I just feel that dicussions wth "Soviet Fire Emblem" and such are more sidebars used to attack smash than actually relevant topics involving Mia's tier position. I hope you're not implying that I hate Mia or something, I'm simply trying to provide a balanced look, which can be hard to do with faulty comparisons being thrown around(let's give Mia everything and Geoff nothing lolol).

As for Mia vs. Zihark, I'll do a numerical comparison.

20/2 Mia B Rhys B Ilyana (Steel Sword)

32.5 HP 25 Atk 23 AS 13 Def 9 Res 59 Avo

20/2 Zihark B Brom C Muarim(Steel Sword)

35 HP 25 Atk 23 AS 13 Def 5 Res 78 Avo

Zihark wins offense due to Adept. Defensively, let's look at the Atk values of Ch18 enemies.

They both get 3HKOd by the Steel Lance Wyvern Lord, who has 105 hit against them. That's ~41% true against Mia, which is a 6.89% chance of death after 3 hits.

Compare this to Zihark, who only faces ~15% true, he only faces a 0.34% chance of death after 3 hits, which is a lot less.

Now admittedly, this is an opponent with WTA, Mia's chances of death against axes are so low that it's not really a problem. Still, Zihark can face any opponents without fear once supports kick in, Mia has some durability issues.

Let's look at a situation later in the game, against a high hit laguz enemy.

20/14 Mia A Rhys B Ilyana(Silver Sword)

38.5 HP 36 Atk 30 AS 15 Def 12 Res 78 Avo

20/14 Zihark A Muarim B Brom (Silver Sword)

42 HP 35 Atk 30 AS 18 Def 9 Res 113 Avo

Zihark's HP and Def leads are a little more prominent now, Mia has a whopping 1 Atk lead, which easily loses to Adept.

Lvl 11-12 Tigers have 31 Atk and 129 Hit. Mia gets 3HKOd at 52.47% true. Zihark gets 4HKOd at 5.28% true. Obviously this is quite a large difference, one that neccesitates a tier gap IMO, since Mia's contribution in 8-10 is minimal and the rest of her advantages are depene\dent upon a skill she's not entitled to. Plus, Zihark provides better outgoing supports and has more likely partners(Muarim>Rhys).

Edited September 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Scarlet]

@smash: Of course assuming BEXP on only one unit in a comparison and not giving the unit it is compared to the same amount is nonsense. However, we do have BEXP available, so not using them at all and tiering units based on Unit A + nothing vs. Unit B + nothing is silly, simply because most units have vastly different growth rates. So for example, if Unit A + x BEXP is better than Unit B + x BEXP (whereas x is a reasonable amount in both cases - of course we're not going to dump half of all our BEXP into a single unit in any case), then Unit A is better, even if Unit B would be better with no BEXP at applied at all. BEXP are very available, unlike stat boosters - giving a unit some of them thus only is a very minor negative, and that negative doesn't matter in that comparison then as the other unit gets it as well.

Anyway, Tormod vs. Devdan.

Lv12/1 Tormod (+ Paladin Band):

26.75 HP, 5.0 STR, 13.25 MAG, 13.0 SKL, 13.5 SPD, 9.75 LUK, 7.25 DEF, 13.25 RES

> Elfire: 18.25 Atk, 115.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 21.25 Atk, 125.875 Hit, 6.5 Crt, 13.5 AS, 36.75 Avd

Lv--/4 Devdan:

36.0 HP, 14.0 STR, 7.0 MAG, 15.0 SKL, 13.0 SPD, 16.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 10.0 RES

> Steel Lance: 24.0 Atk, 108.0 Hit, 7.5 Crt, 13.0 AS, 42.0 Avd

Iron Forge (+5 Mt): 26.0 Atk, 118.0 Hit, 7.5 Crt, 13.0 AS, 42.0 Avd

Javelin: 20.0 Atk, 98.0 Hit, 7.5 Crt, 13.0 AS, 42.0 Avd

Devdan only joins rather late in the chapter, but I'm too lazy to pull out the next chapter's enemies, so chapter 16's will have to do. Also, Tormod could actually have gained a level until he joins, but since it hardly changes anything, I'll leave it out for now and just take the stuff I already had.

Lv15 Myrmidon (Steel Sword): 26 HP, 7 Def/4 Res, 14 AS, 32 Avd | 20 Atk, 105 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 84 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 68 DHit in return

---> Devdan 2RKOs at 86 DHit, gets 5RKO'd at 53 DHit in return

Lv15 Fighter (Steel Axe): 36 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 8 AS, 20 Avd | 24 Atk, 85 Hit, 4 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 96 DHit, gets 2RKO'd at 48 DHit in return

---> Devdan 2RKOs at 78 DHit, gets 3RKO'd at 53 DHit in return

Lv16 Mage (Elthunder): 25 HP, 6 Def/13 Res, 8 AS, 19 Avd | 20 Atk, 96 Hit, 15 Crt

---> Tormod 4RKOs at 77 DHit (2RKOs at 87 DHit with the forge), gets 4RKO'd at 69 DHit and 5 Crt in return

---> Devdan ORKOs at 89 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 54 DHit in return

Lv14 Knight (Iron Lance): 30 HP, 18 Def/6 Res, 4 AS, 11 Avd | 18 Atk, 97 Hit, 4 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 60 DHit in return

---> Devdan 3RKOs at 97 DHit (2RKOs at 100 DHit with the forge), gets 6RKO'd at 55 DHit in return

Lv14 Soldier (Steel Lance): 30 HP, 9 Def/4 Res, 7 AS, 17 Avd | 20 Atk, 93 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 99 DHit (ORKOs if his MAG happens to round up or if he uses the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 56 DHit in return

---> Devdan ORKOs at 91 DHit (2RKOs at 81 DHit with Javelin), gets 4RKO'd at 51 DHit in return

Their performance actually is frighteningly similar. Their offense is pretty much the same (both have an enemy which they do better against than the other and tie at the rest). Devdan admittely is a bit more durable, but Tormod has +1 MOV and staves.

Fast forward to chapter 22 'cuz I'm lazy.

Lv12/10 Tormod, B Reyson, C Calill, (+ Paladin Band):

31.7 HP, 6.8 STR, 17.3 MAG, 16.6 SKL, 18.0 SPD, 12.9 LUK, 9.5 DEF, 17.3 RES

> Elfire: 25.3 Atk, 136.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd

Fire Forge (+5 Mt): 28.3 Atk, 146.9 Hit, 8.3 Crt, 18.0 AS, 51.4 Avd

Lv--/11 Devdan, B Nephenee (+ Knight Ward):

41.25 HP, 18.25 STR, 9.1 MAG, 17.8 SKL, 17.55 SPD, 18.8 LUK, 14.15 (+2) DEF, 11.75 (+2) RES

> Steel Lance: 29.25 Atk, 125.0 Hit, 8.9 Crt, 17.55 AS, 58.9 Avd

Iron Forge (+5 Mt): 31.25 Atk, 135.0 Hit, 8.9 Crt, 17.55 AS, 58.9 Avd

Javelin: 25.25 Atk, 115.0 Hit, 8.9 Crt, 17.55 AS, 58.9 Avd

Lv4 Halberdier (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 13 Def/8 Res, 13 AS, 30 Avd | 22 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 49 DHit in return

---> Devdan 2RKOs at 95 DHit (ORKOs with the forge if his STR happens to round up), gets 7RKO'd at 41 DHit in return

Lv4 Paladin (Steel Lance): 35 HP, 16 Def/9 Res, 15 AS, 35 Avd | 25 Atk, 92 Hit, 5 Crt

---> Tormod 3RKOs at 100 DHit (2RKOs with the forge), gets 3RKO'd at 41 DHit in return (2RKO'd if his DEF rounds down)

---> Devdan 3RKOs at 90 DHit (4RKOs at 80 DHit with Javelin), gets 5RKO'd at 33 DHit in return

Lv6 Warrior (Steel Axe): 45 HP, 11 Def/6 Res, 13 AS, 31 Avd | 28 Atk, 91 Hit, 6 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge if his MAG happens to round up), gets 2RKO'd at 40 DHit in return

---> Devdan 2RKOs at 84 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 42 DHit in return

Lv5 Sage (Elthunder): 31 HP, 9 Def/15 Res, 13 AS, 29 Avd | 21 Atk, 102 Hit, 16 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 98 DHit, gets 7RKO'd at 61 DHit and 3 Crt in return

---> Devdan ORKOs at 96 DHit, gets 6RKO'd at 43 DHit in return

Lv4 Wyvern Lord (Steel Lance): 38 HP, 19 Def/7 Res, 12 AS, 26 Avd | 26 Atk, 100 Hit, 7 Crt

---> Tormod 2RKOs at 100 DHit (ORKOs with the forge), gets 2RKO'd at 49 DHit in return

---> Devdan 2RKOs at 99 DHit (4RKOs at 89 DHit with Javelin), gets 5RKO'd at 41 DHit in return

Okay, so their offense still is almost exactly the same (or actually, Tormod slightly wins with the forge). Similarly to Gatrie, Devdan has an epic durability lead over Tormod; however, it doesn't look quite as epic anymore if you consider that Tormod doesn't need to eat counters on Player Phase while retaining full offense. All in all, it just allows Devdan a bit more enemy exposure, but that's about it really. However, unlike Gatrie, Devdan doesn't have an epic earlygame to answer Tormod's staves and +1 MOV with. Actually, it's Tormod who has half a chapter of an availability lead, lol.

I'd say this one's pretty clear. Staves > a bit more durability (especially after seeing how high Mist is on the list).

Tormod > Devdan please.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Raymond

[Interceptor]

I just feel that dicussions wth "Soviet Fire Emblem" and such are more sidebars used to attack smash than actually relevant topics involving Mia's tier position. I hope you're not implying that I hate Mia or something, I'm simply trying to provide a balanced look, which can be hard to do with faulty comparisons being thrown around(let's give Mia everything and Geoff nothing lolol).

smash sucks all of the oxygen out of the thread when he posts. I don't think that necessarily means that there is no tier argument behind a resource distribution fight. Obviously, I think that distribution of resource means the world to the accuracy Mia's tier position. Bad arguments naturally don't help things, but...

As for Mia vs. Zihark, I'll do a numerical comparison.

I immediately object to the levels used here. Considering that I am at Chapter 18, and have raised six combatants to 20/4-5 (Oscar, Boyd, Mia, Astrid, Kieran, Ilyana), with ~1600 BEXP left unspent in the community pot, I don't think that 20/2 is at all realistic for Mia. Add to that, I've had to train Ike too (even though his footprint is smaller due to being a mediocre combatant and my not wanting to overshoot 20) and Titania (who is 20/11 at this point, AKA she's taken a shitload of kills) on top of that, making for eight primary fighters.

Zihark wins offense due to Adept. Defensively, let's look at the Atk values of Ch18 enemies.

Where's the effect of Vantage? Mia is a SM now, if she crits something on the first hit they will have no chance to hit her. Vantage also makes her a pretty good candidate for Guard, doesn't it (never used that skill)?

[...]Obviously this is quite a large difference, one that neccesitates a tier gap IMO, since Mia's contribution in 8-10 is minimal and the rest of her advantages are depenedent upon a skill she's not entitled to. Plus, Zihark provides better outgoing supports and has more likely partners(Muarim>Rhys).

I'm sorry, I can't buy Mia's contributions being minimal in 8-10. Being not as good as Oscar/Boyd/Titania does not strike me as justifying the term. What exactly does she need to do to be substantial? I can name something in every chapter that she's doing to advance the cause of the army.

The other thing is the portions prior to promotion where Zihark is not up to snuff. For example, he has no way of out-Myrming Mia in 11 since she has a subtantial level lead that you can't do anything about, and a limited sphere of influence on the chapter outcome because of where and how he starts. The level difference rears its head again for Ch. 12: how likely do you consider it to Zihark is able to ORKO Ravens, here? Count out the BEXP he'd need for it. My Zihark was level 10, a bit towards 11, at the start of this chapter.

I don't even want to get into Wrath, because it's been done to death. Drop the "entitled to" nomenclature: bottom line is, does it improve Mia's ability to complete the game, relative to other characters? I say that reasonable people would agree that it does, overall.

[Narga_Rocks]

Obviously this is quite a large difference, one that neccesitates a tier gap IMO, since Mia's contribution in 8-10 is minimal and the rest of her advantages are depene\dent upon a skill she's not entitled to. Plus, Zihark provides better outgoing supports and has more likely partners(Muarim>Rhys).

Yeah, taking away that skill is odd, but even without it, he's not a tier ahead for chapters 11 to 18, considering you gave him Muarim means he hits BC at chapter 19. So for 8 chapters his avo lead has amounted to 3 avo for a while then 8 avo, considering the luck difference. Then consider a possible level gap (probably level 15 vs. level 13 or 16 vs. 14 assuming both get reasonable bexp because it's there) and she's not even losing avo until he hits B Brom. Also, until he hits C Brom, she's got more avo. And she always has vantage. Even without a killing edge, which I still think both Zihark and Mia should get a fair amount of use out of assuming only one of them is in play, she still can OHKO anything that's been weakened enough, which can happen.

So anyway, level lead, CC Rhys Ilyana vs. nothing until chapter 15, then in chapter 16 it's C Brom vs. BB Rhys Ilyana. Then in chapter 18 it's B Brom vs. BB Rhys Ilyana, then in chapter 19 it's B Brom C Muarim vs. BB, then in chapter 20 it's BC vs. AB, then in chapter 21 it's AC vs. AB, then finally in chapter 22 it's AB vs. AB.

So for a while she has a level lead, avo lead, non-adept damage lead (allowing ORKOing of things Zihark probably doesn't, especially with the +1 from CC and +3 from BB Mia has).

So by chapter 16 the level lead should counter the C Brom's 5 avo, and she pulls an avo lead/tie until chapter 18. Also, when they tie, she has vantage. As for adept, she 100% ORKOs more, he has a chance to KO against stuff she doesn't KO.

An accurate comparison of the two units does not start in chapter 19 when Zihark finally has a BC going. That's ignoring 8 chapters of their shared existence. Sure, assuming no wrath his leads in chapters 19 to Endgame easily outweigh her leads in chapters 7 to 18, but by enough to warrant a tier gap? Then throw in the possibility of her using wrath and that easily kills the tier gap.

Where's the effect of Vantage? Mia is a SM now, if she crits something on the first hit they will have no chance to hit her. Vantage also makes her a pretty good candidate for Guard, doesn't it (never used that skill)?

I'm guessing the guard thing is "what if we decide not to give her wrath?" or something? As in, two options with which to improve durability, one of which comes long before Zihark is pulling any significant avo leads?

And even a 15% crit chance means 50% hit drops to 42.5%, and so a 12.5% chance to die drops to ~7.68% chance to die.

30% drops to 25.5%, and 2.75% drops to ~1.7%. This is discounting the possibility of forging crit onto a sword, assuming the enemy luck eats up all her skill/2 crit, and acting like neither Zihark nor Mia ever get to touch the vague katti or a killing edge.

Considering I got a ~39% reduction in her chance to be 3HKOd with an unfavourable skill set (no guard, no wrath) and unfavourable weapons and overestimating enemy luck, I'd have to say that his avo lead, while still significant, combined with the timeframe where his supports haven't kicked in should prevent the tier gap.

Oh yeah, 3 to 6 cev in chapter 20 when a 20/5 Mia has 10 base crit means instead of 15% crit I should go with 19 to 22. Also, assuming just 3% on a forge means 22 to 25. Anyway, 19% crit means a ~47% reduction in her chance to be 3HKOd (assuming 3 hits KO her). Also ~57% reduction in her chance to be 4HKOd (assuming 4 hits KO her).

So whatever values need to be cut. Considering there is plenty of opportunity for her to attack non-lance users, I'd say she can drop her chances of dying to manageable levels. As such, again, his wins for the last portion of the game is reduced a bit and he still has his pre support phase.

(Oh yeah, going with 34 crit from a forge against a 5 cev enemy means 29% crit, so ~64% reduction against 3 attacks while being 3HKOd and ~74.6% reduction against 4 attacks while 4HKOd. Consider that all this is with no killing edge, no vague katti, no wrath.)

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see the change was made >_>.

which is a 6.89% chance of death after 3 hits.

Forgot vantage crits, don't forget wrath neither.

Edited September 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Ether]

since we seem willing to dump resources onto Mia,

What resources? Wrath? The fair share of bexp? Bands? Anything else she's practically entitled too?

Why aren't we allowing Geoffrey KW access kirsche?

Admkittedly, I forgot the KW existed, so yeah, he can probably double more. Not as much as Mia, though, Most likely, and I still feel I was generous with his levels but whatever. It only bolsters his AS by 1 or 2 points in my comparisons, it's not like he starts doubling everything after wards so the doubling lead still remains.

And I still see no reason why Mia's availability advantage =/= >Geoffrey, really. I mean, she has 7 chapters of wrath + vantage pwnage pre chapter 26, and even if Geoff > Mia there, she's still pretty amazing. Is there are real evidence that Geoff beats Mia in the time they share together by such an amount to erase Mia's availability lead? I don't think so.

Why are we acting as if a Silver Lance is even important at all as a resource?

A Forged silver lance, you know, the ones that haven't existed for very long? Compared to Mia's forged steel sword, which has been around for much longer. If anything, she's more entitled to a silver forge as the silver sword forges have been around for longer.

which is a 6.89% chance of death after 3 hits.

Forgot vantage crits, don't forget wrath neither.

mia was already moved above geoffrey.BTW,Int,what level was your Mia at chapter 16?

[Interceptor]

I'm guessing the guard thing is "what if we decide not to give her wrath?" or something? As in, two options with which to improve durability, one of which comes long before Zihark is pulling any significant avo leads?

Yeah, that was a trial balloon.

Taking Guard will mean that Mia's cost for Wrath gets too high (since she has to delete Guard and nobody else can have it now), I would wager, making them mutually exclusive, but it comes earlier and is not as situational as Wrath. It may or may not be worthwhile to consider it, so I just threw it in there.

EDIT:

BTW,Int,what level was your Mia at chapter 16?

I had her kneecap Maurim in 15, since my team is notably lacking fliers (oops, bad planning on my part), so she was killing lots of stuff in this chapter on her way there, and ended up being 20/2 by the start of Ch. 16. She is one of the ones at 20/5 in Ch. 18, because of all of the kittehs and birdies that she mauled while my Paladins were eating her dust, stuck in the sand.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

Who actually wants guard, anyway? I wouldn't say deleting it is a big enougth negative to erase Mia's call on wrath.

I mean, remember doritos? You know, those tasty snacks? Well, if we give Mia guard, and later on give her wrath, that's about as efficient as you can get with Mia, really.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm guessing the guard thing is "what if we decide not to give her wrath?" or something? As in, two options with which to improve durability, one of which comes long before Zihark is pulling any significant avo leads?

Yeah, that was a trial balloon.

Taking Guard will mean that Mia's cost for Wrath gets too high (since she has to delete Guard and nobody else can have it now), I would wager, making them mutually exclusive, but it comes earlier and is not as situational as Wrath. It may or may not be worthwhile to consider it, so I just threw it in there.

Well, I know people would say "favouritism", but brave sword with guard and swordmaster crit would be interesting.

Someone else can have Wrath and she can reduce Z's avo advantage still. Not by nearly as much, and when someone else uses the brave or when it's broken or whatever it won't be as much of a reduction anyway, but at least guard also helps on things she doesn't 3HKO (4HKO with brave). It's a lesser option, but at least when other people want to deny wrath for some odd reason she still has another option. Considering one of the reasons is "someone else can have vantage + wrath", well now guard is virtually useless on non-Mia units.

Who actually wants guard, anyway? I wouldn't say deleting it is a big enougth negative to erase Mia's call on wrath.

I mean, remember doritos? You know, those tasty snacks? Well, if we give Mia guard, and later on give her wrath, that's about as efficient as you can get with Mia, really.

except if Neph isn't in play then we lose the option of another unit with good skill having vantage + guard while Mia (crit boost, possible access to vague katti and killing edge) has vantage + wrath

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Ether]

I'm guessing the guard thing is "what if we decide not to give her wrath?" or something? As in, two options with which to improve durability, one of which comes long before Zihark is pulling any significant avo leads?

Yeah, that was a trial balloon.

Taking Guard will mean that Mia's cost for Wrath gets too high (since she has to delete Guard and nobody else can have it now), I would wager, making them mutually exclusive, but it comes earlier and is not as situational as Wrath. It may or may not be worthwhile to consider it, so I just threw it in there.

EDIT:

BTW,Int,what level was your Mia at chapter 16?

I had her kneecap Maurim in 15, since my team is notably lacking fliers (oops, bad planning on my part), so she was killing lots of stuff in this chapter on her way there, and ended up being 20/2 by the start of Ch. 16. She is one of the ones at 20/5 in Ch. 18, because of all of the kittehs and birdies that she mauled while my Paladins were eating her dust, stuck in the sand.

So then let's say 20/1 in chapter 16.(BB Rhys Ilyana,Knight band)

To compare her to Stefan,he has 7 Hp and 3 Str against her 1 Def(this is giving his 2 levels of Bexp)Mia also levels faster,and will get another point of att from her supports soon.Their offense remains relatively even(Mia has more crit When Wrath is active,while Stefan pulls a slight Att lead and has Astra).But Mia wins durability due to Vantageblicks with similar Avo and HKO rates.

So the two are relatively even when both exist,but Mia has had chapters 7-14(although Stefan likely does next to nothing in 15)where she has been contributing.

Mia > Stefan,which closes the tier gap between Mia and Z.

[-Cynthia-]

I know that an accurate comparison doesn't start in Ch19, I should have mentioned that they are really similar in 11-17, except that Vantage matters less because Mia's crit pre-promotion isn't so good. Zihark doesn't have a very significant durability lead pre-promotion, but Mia isn't having any real significant leads either, so it balances out.

Yes, Vantage helps Mia's durability, but it's not as good as Zihark's Avo. If Mia doesn't have a forge, she might not be able to critblick things like Wyvern Lords/Tigers etc.

As for Mia vs. Stefan, I'd like to see soem more evidence. If Stefan is beating Mia for their shared existence, Stefan is clearly the winner because Mia's 7-14 performance is underwhelming. I think we're overrating Mia's earlygame a little here, let's look at her Ch8 performance.

Lvl 10 Mia (Iron Sword)

23 HP 14 Atk 15 AS 8 Def 3 Res 38 Avo

As for Cavs, there's one she 2RKOs, she 3RKOS the rest. She gets 3-4HKOD back at pretty high hit rates (like 70%+).

Same death rates vs. Myrms, except she can 2RKO them(near a ORKO).

2RKOS Archers, 3-4RKOS back.

Needs Armorslayer to do damage against Knights, kills her Avo more. They 3RKO her, she 3RKOs back.

It's not terrible, but it isn't that good either. You could argue I sandbagged her by not giving her a forge, but we've only had one forging opportunity the entire game so far, so her taking one is a big resource.

[Narga_Rocks]

You could argue I sandbagged her by not giving her a forge, but we've only had one forging opportunity the entire game so far, so her taking one is a big resource.

I don't think I'd argue that. Someone should have one, but I'm not sure the tier list can assume who. Int gave one to Boyd in that chapter (if I remember what he wrote, I might be mistaken) and that seems like a good call, but Boyd is already the highest ranked foot unit so I'm not sure how much it actually matters.

As for the rest, I haven't looked into her performance like Int has, nor would I be as good at defending certain levels for the chapters after ch 8. The thing with Mia v. Stefan is what her level is at what time. Apparently it's possible to get a fair number of units to 20/4 by the time chapter 18 starts, and I'm assuming Int is playing HM since although he never stated it explicitly I think it's obvious he wouldn't make a mistake like that. So 20/2 by chapter 16, though that requires destroying the desert and not having a raised flier. Still, level 19 Mia for chapter 16

19 27.5 12.2 3.9 15.85 20 11.85 9.6 5.25

So 27 hp, 12 str, 4 mag, 16 skl, 20 spd, 11.85 luck, 9.6 def, 5.25 res.

I think we can assume enough band usage for all characters that with the number of bands out there she can easily pull 12 luck and have a great shot at 10 def.

**/8 Stefan

8 38 19 8 27 25 5 12 9

38 hp, 19 str, 27 skl, 25 spd, 5 luck, 12 def, 9 res.

He technically gets 2 levels out of ~400 bexp, but while giving bexp to level 7 to 13 tier 1 units that need it is easily justifiable, I'm not sure you can say the same for Stefan. But, Int had tons of extra, so **/10 Stefan it is:

10 39.4 20 8.4 27.8 26.1 5.5 12.7 9.6

So she should promote for partway through chapter 17, if probably 17/1 or 17/2 assuming level 19 in chapter 16. A couple chapters down, don't know what Stefan can reach in that time since I'm not familiar with exp gains in this game (~5 years).

1 32 13.6 6.2 18.3 22 12.3 11.8 7.5

32 hp, 14 str, 6 mag, 18 skl, 22 spd, 12 luck, 12 def

11 40.1 20.5 8.6 28.2 26.65 5.75 13.05 9.9

40 hp, 20 str, 28 skl, 26/27 spd, 5/6 lck, 13 def, 9 res.

So, she's down 3 mt thanks to supports and 40% compared to 50% with that level difference makes me think she'll just catch up over time. she's down anywhere from 1 to 4 avo, which isn't bad, and 8 hp and 1 def, except Ilyana makes 13. So she's 4HKOd by 21 mt to 23 mt, 3HKOd by 24 mt to 29 mt, and not much is in that range anyway. 5HKOd by 20 mt, 6HKOd by 19 mt, 7HKOd by 18mt, wow enemies suck in this game. There are even some things with less than 18 mt, but seriously, who cares? 17 mt is an 8HKO, 16 mt is an 11 HKO, and 15 mt is a 16HKO.

Oh, and his 4HKO value is 23 mt to 26 mt, and 5HKO is 21 mt to 23 mt, and it gets silly for him beneath that, too.

Numbers go down by 4 or 5 for Mia vs. mages, but most barely pull 4HKO or are less, only the meteor dude is scary except "scary" is 3HKO.

Numbers go down by 3 for Stefan, so he's a fair bit better against some mages, but still it's like 5 and 6 HKO instead of 3 and 4 HKO, and meteor dude is 4HKO.

Chapter 18 takes away the silly ones and the lowest mt is 16 on a physical unit and mia faces more 3HKOs, but still a fair number of silly 5 HKOs. And she should be higher leveled now.

Honestly, she's arguably more durable thanks to swordmaster crit (vantage) and similar avo and generally only 1 HKO smaller from enemies. They still mostly suck for a while (enemies).

Make her level 8 and him level 14 and

8 35.5 16.4 8.3 21.45 26.2 15.45 13.2 9.25

14 42.2 22 9.2 29 28.3 6.5 14.1 10.8

so basically by now AB Rhys Ilyana means 20 str vs 22str, though Mia's had more time to use bands so she may have 21 str now. Does Stefan get considered with Soren and Mordy? too complicated, but I guess he gets at least 1 more mt now, too. Also a B Mordy could maintain the def and res advantage, otherwise def is still tied and res is only 1 more or tied. 7 hp more means 3HKO numbers are 2 higher and 4HKO numbers are 1 or 2 higher and 5 HKO numbers are usually only 1 higher. Well, without B Mordy, anyway.

She has more avo than him now, thanks to a luck lead. 5 avo lead, so a B Soren can cancel that, I guess. She's also not facing crit by as much, but enemies are so weak that it probably doesn't OHKO him anyway. Still, it means more careful planning with him, since 3 enemies that 5HKO him and 2 of them have crit causes a death chance. 3 enemies that 4HKO Mia probably don't. Also, Vantage still exists, so with similar concrete and an avo lead/tie, and only a 2 or 3 mt lead, It's not huge.

Chapter 7 to 15 she's still doing good stuff, and aside from Astra they are close to a tie. Astra is just 14% activation, though, and does it allow crits? If not, does it take priority over crits? ie: anyone know which one is rolled first? 2.5 < 3.

I'm not sure there is a big enough win there to account for the difference in availability. Consider the possibility of wrath and what do you get?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Don't forget that Stefan's lol5 Luck (and 25% growth) is concerned with displayed crit against quite a good number of the enemies. It's not much (mostly 1-3, more for higher crit enemies), but it stacks.

[Narga_Rocks]

Don't forget that Stefan's lol5 Luck (and 25% growth) is concerned with displayed crit against quite a good number of the enemies. It's not much (mostly 1-3, more for higher crit enemies), but it stacks.

I forgot for most of my post and only touched on it briefly. I probably should have made a bigger deal out of it, though. Really, she wins durability the entire time, or at least once she promotes, anyway. Considering that doesn't take long, I'd say overall she actually wins durability, thanks to much less crit rates against her and vantage. Offence vs. Defence, only she can nab wrath and have better offence too. We can compare them both with vantage + wrath, but removing his astra and giving him vantage + wrath? How is that good for the team?

[Florete]

Don't forget that Stefan's lol5 Luck (and 25% growth) is concerned with displayed crit against quite a good number of the enemies. It's not much (mostly 1-3, more for higher crit enemies), but it stacks.

I forgot for most of my post and only touched on it briefly. I probably should have made a bigger deal out of it, though. Really, she wins durability the entire time, or at least once she promotes, anyway. Considering that doesn't take long, I'd say overall she actually wins durability, thanks to much less crit rates against her and vantage. Offence vs. Defence, only she can nab wrath and have better offence too. We can compare them both with vantage + wrath, but removing his astra and giving him vantage + wrath? How is that good for the team?

You did, and somehow I completely missed it when reading your post. >_> But yeah, I remember using Stefan and always being unsure where to put him because I hate facing crits on enemies. I've been the victim of getting critted by 1 displayed crit more than once (one time it was Oswin who took 0 damage anyway, but the point is it's scary).

Edited September 29, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

You did, and somehow I completely missed it when reading your post. >_> But yeah, I remember using Stefan and always being unsure where to put him because I hate facing crits on enemies. I've been the victim of getting critted by 1 displayed crit more than once (one time it was Oswin who took 0 damage anyway, but the point is it's scary).

Urg. Ena's chapter. Thunder mage. Injured Stefan, I'm sure you know how this ended. Reset.

I usually go out of my way to stick either high def or high avo units in the way of things with crit. I hate the possibility of having that happen. Frequently my calculations go: "alright, if everything that has crit on this unit crits, will it die?" and plan accordingly to prevent that from happening. So I had things like Ilyana getting criticalled by a thunder mage in 1-6-1 and not dying since I planned for the crit, and no other enemies were in range of her. I gave up a little in RD because otherwise I'd have to have Gatrie and Ike go everywhere, so I just focused on trying to reduce it as much as possible without slowing me down (my Ilyana example was a case where I could avoid all danger). But since PoR is so easy that with most units you don't have to take those risks, I think low luck in PoR should hurt.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

Hm, Mia>Stefan seems sensible.

[Narga_Rocks]

Hm, Mia>Stefan seems sensible.

wow

Should we reopen Lethe v. Stefan? I believe Mia is better than people used to give her credit for, and I know Lethe has gauge and slows down later on and there are two laguz wanting the demiband above her, but Mia > Lethe? Anyway, I can't imagine Mia climbing any higher than this in this particular game, because wrath appears when Zihark's supports are fullblown so Zihark probably wins overall, and Mordy is just fun, though I never looked into Mordy enough to know if she has a chance. So anyway, don't worry about me pushing Mia too much anymore, unless I see something from other people.

[Florete]

Lol, Mia went from Low to Upper Mid.

After everything that's been said, I think Mia > Lethe seems reasonable enough, though I personally have nothing to back that up with.