FE9 Tier list v3

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

itt, kirsche forgets Iron Axe exists for his early game Ike vs. Boyd comparison. Ike should still win though, yeah.

[Dat Nick]

Um, what do you mean? He gave Boyd an Iron. And this game would be pretty fucking biased against axes if the Iron axe didn't exist this early >_>

Unless you meant Hand? Maybe steel?

No way to forge Steel in Chapter 8, or otherwise I would agree with you. Fact of the matter is, Boyd ORKO'ing Knights is a really big deal.

...But can't Boyd just use a hammer for that?

Btw, I don't think Boyd and Ike should be at equal levels. Boyd isn't around for two chapters, and I'm not sure the level gap created by this incident has died off just yet.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Germany

[Interceptor]

...But can't Boyd just use a hammer for that?

No. Hammer weighs too much, so he can't double with it, and effective bonuises in this game are fail, so he can't OHKO either. And even if he could OHKO, he'd miss because Hammer accuracy is shit.

Btw, I don't think Boyd and Ike should be at equal levels. Boyd isn't around for two chapters, and I'm not sure the level gap created by this incident has died off just yet.

The levels don't really matter. Once Boyd gets 25mt with forged iron and can double the Knights on his side, it's game over. Even if you give Ike a level lead it doesn't make him magically start killing things or surviving much better. Shit, Mia is giving Ike a run for his money because of the Armorslayer and BEXP.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Um, what do you mean? He gave Boyd an Iron. And this game would be pretty fucking biased against axes if the Iron axe didn't exist this early >_>

Unless you meant Hand? Maybe steel?

I was talking about the pre-Chapter 8 comparisons. It's not useful in Chapter 1, granted, because he doesn't double anything anyways, but after he gets a single level-up, things change.

...Though come to think of it, why is Ike Level 3 in Chapter 1? I thought he came out of the Prologue at 2 and a little over? It has been awhile, though, so I could be wrong.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[Colonel M]

Shit, Mia is giving Ike a run for his money because of the Armorslayer and BEXP.

Erm... this doesn't make sense since said Ike can use these resources too. Must be missing something very important...

Edited September 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Shit, Mia is giving Ike a run for his money because of the Armorslayer and BEXP.

Erm... this doesn't make sense since said Ike can use these resources too. Must be missing something very important...

Armourslayer has huge weight, which I'm assuming prevents Ike, who is substantially slower, from doubling with it.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[Colonel M]

Shit, Mia is giving Ike a run for his money because of the Armorslayer and BEXP.

Erm... this doesn't make sense since said Ike can use these resources too. Must be missing something very important...

Armourslayer has huge weight, which I'm assuming prevents Ike, who is substantially slower, from doubling with it.

I forgot slayer weapons are heavy as fuck in this game.

Still Mia has like 6 AS or something like that, but w/e. There's still Regal Sword anyway.

[Interceptor]

Right. They both get weighed down, but Mia's STR/SPD combination gives her an AS that's capable of doubling with the Armorslayer. Which is better than Regal, because of the mt advantage. Mia is 3HKO on Armors.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Shit, Mia is giving Ike a run for his money because of the Armorslayer and BEXP.

Erm... this doesn't make sense since said Ike can use these resources too.

Level 12 Ike has 10 str/13 spd

Level 10 Mia has 8.6/15.4

Armorslayer has 17 wt.

Ike has 6 speed, Mia has (15.4 - (17 - 8.6) = 7, so probably) 7. Also, drop Ike's level and he has less than 6 speed. 6 was borderline on the 2 AS ones.

Also, drop both of their levels and Mia will continue to double the 0 AS ones (even with just one str or spd proc) and Ike has 3.4 spd at level 9.

I'm not too sure what level he has Ike at, but I think the point is optimization of resources. Ike has a regal blade already, so in some ways it makes sense to have the regal blade and the armorslayer in use. This is achieved by Mia getting the armorslayer. Also, Ike hits level 20 and gains nothing until he promotes. You could ram his level and cap around chapter 15 or something, but what's the point?

Anyway, if I'm missing something, I'm sure Int can point it out.

[Colonel M]

I dunno about Mia 3HKOing and Ike not. Ike also has a 2 Str lead which closes in on the Mt calculation (since both double, Regal Blade is 14 and Armorslayer is 16).

[Narga_Rocks]

I dunno about Mia 3HKOing and Ike not. Ike also has a 2 Str lead which closes in on the Mt calculation (since both double, Regal Blade is 14 and Armorslayer is 16).

I haven't a clue. They both seem to 3HKO and both double. Still, the point is he's not winning. And I gave him level 12 to get that 2 str lead.

Also, since the enemies are all lance users, it's actually 12 mt and 14 mt weapons.

So 8/10 means 22 mt for the both of them. If Ike has 9 str instead of 10 (lower level I guess) then he has 21 mt w/ Regal Blade and may not double (I guess) with the armorslayer. So even the 25hp/13def knights are 4HKOd (left w/ 1 hp after 3) by him. Mia has 8.6 at level 10, so even level 9 gives a pretty good chance of procing 8 (1 - (.6^3) = 78.4% in three levels, 64% in two levels.

Anyway, depending on levels they will probably both 3HKO (level 10 and 12), but at slightly lower levels only Mia is 3HKOing. I think.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Lol @ Regal Blade.

I'd say that Mia wins because Vantage provides a good strategic defense here. She can get attacked on enemy phase and do damage so that she can one hit them the next attack. On player phase, she can vulnerary the damage away and kill the knight on the next turn without taking another attack.

This Vantage 3HKO persists throughout the game regardless of crit.

[Interceptor]

If Ike can 3HKO with Regal, that's cool for him, since it means that he'll have more Avoid than Mia will when wielding. IT's not really an important point. The important point is how he matches up against Boyd, and that one isn't pretty. Boyd cannot get a forge for free, obviously, but I think a strong case has been made that he's the Ch. 8 Doritos for the forge. Oscar is mono-lances in this chapter, meaning he's running like a 5mt deficit behind Boyd just from STR, weapon triangle, and weapon type... it's unlikely that a lance forge for him is worthwhile.

Titania is obviously doing just fine with Iron, and if you were smart about levelling her up to this point, she's ORKO'ing tons of shit with Hand Axes (which is a huge benefit here, it means that she wipes out the entire Paladin-bomb on Turn 1 Enemy Phase, leaving her free to do almost anything that she wants).

That leaves Soren, basically, and he has a damn good shot at ORKO with a forge, except for two problems:

1) Player Phase only. Soren gets raped durability-wise, made worse by ORKO'ing.

2) You can't afford his forged tome yet, at least not the max mt one that he'd want. Max mt costs over 15,000 gold, start saving your spare change.

[Narga_Rocks]

If Ike can 3HKO with Regal, that's cool for him, since it means that he'll have more Avoid than Mia will when wielding. IT's not really an important point. The important point is how he matches up against Boyd, and that one isn't pretty. Boyd cannot get a forge for free, obviously, but I think a strong case has been made that he's the Ch. 8 Doritos for the forge. Oscar is mono-lances in this chapter, meaning he's running like a 5mt deficit behind Boyd just from STR, weapon triangle, and weapon type... it's unlikely that a lance forge for him is worthwhile.

Titania is obviously doing just fine with Iron, and if you were smart about levelling her up to this point, she's ORKO'ing tons of shit with Hand Axes (which is a huge benefit here, it means that she wipes out the entire Paladin-bomb on Turn 1 Enemy Phase, leaving her free to do almost anything that she wants).

That leaves Soren, basically, and he has a damn good shot at ORKO with a forge, except for two problems:

1) Player Phase only. Soren gets raped durability-wise, made worse by ORKO'ing.

2) You can't afford his forged tome yet, at least not the max mt one that he'd want. Max mt costs over 15,000 gold, start saving your spare change.

Yeah, Boyd should get it.

So, is there a doritos for chapter 9? lance, sword, or other?

[Interceptor]

Yeah, Boyd should get it.

So, is there a doritos for chapter 9? lance, sword, or other?

I don't think there is one. Well, it's not a sword, at any rate, since forged iron doesn't appear to enable Mia to go from 4HKO to 2HKO on the axe-wielders. My gut would put the top two contenders as a lance for Oscar, or a forge for either Ilyana or Soren. The magic forge might be plausible for Ilyana, less so for Soren since Wind is still out of the question and even a Thunder for him would be more expensive than one for Ilyana. There's no influx of money until the start of Chapter 10, so that's a valid consideration. Pawning an Ashera and the Red Gem is probably the biggest source of funds atm.

Put a gun to my heas, I'd say Oscar's lance. A real enemy comparison needs to be done, clearly. Might not be a Doritos. I think that Ch. 8 is probably unique in that there's a clear winner. I suspect there won't be another breakpoint until perhaps the Steel upgrade.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, Boyd should get it.

So, is there a doritos for chapter 9? lance, sword, or other?

I don't think there is one. Well, it's not a sword, at any rate, since forged iron doesn't appear to enable Mia to go from 4HKO to 2HKO on the axe-wielders. My gut would put the top two contenders as a lance for Oscar, or a forge for either Ilyana or Soren. The magic forge might be plausible for Ilyana, less so for Soren since Wind is still out of the question and even a Thunder for him would be more expensive than one for Ilyana. There's no influx of money until the start of Chapter 10, so that's a valid consideration. Pawning an Ashera and the Red Gem is probably the biggest source of funds atm.

Put a gun to my heas, I'd say Oscar's lance. A real enemy comparison needs to be done, clearly. Might not be a Doritos. I think that Ch. 8 is probably unique in that there's a clear winner. I suspect there won't be another breakpoint until perhaps the Steel upgrade.

I was wondering also if Ike gets any benefit and if there is a plus from the fact he and Mia can trade. Also, if either can become 3HKO on the pirates in chapter 9.

[Interceptor]

Since the map is a Sieze, I have my doubts about 1) the utility of Ike going down to the beach, and therefore 2) Ike and Mia being anywhere near each other. It will take longer for Ike to get to the square with his 6MV if he goes the long way, plus he needs to recruit Marcia at some point during this chapter.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Interceptor

[Dat Nick]

2) You can't afford his forged tome yet, at least not the max mt one that he'd want. Max mt costs over 15,000 gold, start saving your spare change.

wtf are you talking abo-

*actually checks*

Wow holy shit that's retarded.

Anyway, forge for Oscar would be fine, especially if it's a Javelin.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since the map is a Sieze, I have my doubts about 1) the utility of Ike going down to the beach, and therefore 2) Ike and Mia being anywhere near each other. It will take longer for Ike to get to the square with his 6MV if he goes the long way, plus he needs to recruit Marcia at some point during this chapter.

There is that. I seem to be unable to remember a few things about this game. The beach doesn't have reduced move, though, right? I suppose he's faster if he goes straight to the seize, though.

Okay, so it's between a tome and a lance, I guess. Oh well.

Steel starts ... when? I remember seeing a topic with when forging what becomes available, but I can't find it now...

@Germany: And I'm pretty sure Javelins aren't available till the mid to late teens.

[Colonel M]

No, IIRC the beach does hinder movement (-2 per square) but everyone would have roughly the same move in there except for probably Oscar who'll have like 2...

Not that it matters really.

Also unsure on the tome forge only because tomes are expensive as fuck to forge to begin with. I'd say Lance is burritos before Tome is burritos, but that's just personal opinion here.

[Interceptor]

The beach in Ch. 9 is a little bit different than the sands in Ch. 15. I am sure of that because the sands in 15 don't give a DEF/avoid bonus, but the ones in 9 do (which is why Mia rapes face down there). Paladins take a movement penalty, I know that for sure, because Titania only barely made it to the Bandit in time (despite being slowed down, 9 base MV means she gets there faster than anyone). I want to say that foot soldiers and mages don't get slowed down by the sands, because I distinctly remember having to keep Mist and Rolf pretty far back to keep them out of enemy movement range.

In any case, it's still slower for Ike to go that way, because his deployment position is fixed. In other words, you can't put him closer to the back and cut some distance off. That means he has to backtrack before he can walk down to the beach. With Mia, I can deploy her at the back, and she can get close enough that she'll actually fight someone on Enemy Phase. Titania can actually catch up with the main forces at the keep as long as you don't tarry too long after killing the first Bandit, she can slog through the sands and climb the ramp to the south (although I find it useufl to keep her down there, since Mia/Ilyana/Mist/Rolf can't do everything, you need one more battler to make it efficient... if Soren was being used, he would count for one).

Edited September 30, 2009 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

With Mia rising, I don't see why we should sandbag Rolf anymore. Granted the man needs BEXP, but to say he is barred from it is stupid (like others have attempted to put against him). Though I said the Lance would be burritos for Oscar on C9, it's not hard to say that C10 can have a Bow forge be cheetos, but it doesn't need to be. I mean there's still the Rolf Bow if we're barring such a forge and he'd rather have Steel forge. I'd also contend that he wouldn't be a bad user with Wrath given that he's going to be protected anyway. That, and the Sniper's crit boost will help increase the % chance of killing things. I won't go with every other hype thing in the book (I'm not the type to hype) but I believe he can't hold -that- much negative utility.

Rolf is fritos vs. a lot of people for all I care.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

With Mia rising, I don't see why we should sandbag Rolf anymore. Granted the man needs BEXP, but to say he is barred from it is stupid (like others have attempted to put against him). Though I said the Lance would be burritos for Oscar on C9, it's not hard to say that C10 can have a Bow forge be cheetos, but it doesn't need to be. I mean there's still the Rolf Bow if we're barring such a forge and he'd rather have Steel forge. I'd also contend that he wouldn't be a bad user with Wrath given that he's going to be protected anyway. That, and the Sniper's crit boost will help increase the % chance of killing things. I won't go with every other hype thing in the book (I'm not the type to hype) but I believe he can't hold -that- much negative utility.

Rolf is fritos vs. a lot of people for all I care.

...I almost regret using Doritos/Caramilk/Junior Mints in my example rather than items A, B, and C.

Anyway, objective? Mia's durability is actually enough to get some enemy phases in and she doubles stuff long before he does and dodges enough to frequently not need healing (thus doesn't need to be healed every single player phase just to keep getting enemy phase action without fear of death). So I'm not sure what Mia rising has to do with Rolf.

I'm not suggesting Rolf is actually a drag on the team, because I can't really imagine how that could be so in this particular game. I played this game long enough ago and before I really started targeting efficiency so I'm not sure how he'd do from a purely efficient standpoint, but I never had issues using him effectively. Is Lower Mid a goal, or just > Elincia and possibly Shinon and Janaff? Also, with Tormod's 1-2 range and eventual staff usage and only 5 to 7 chapters less availability (depending on how we judge chapter 9 and 10) I'd say no matter what happens and whatever people can be convinced of, Tormod seems like an upper limit, though I'm not convinced Rolf can possibly get that high.

[Colonel M]

...I almost regret using Doritos/Caramilk/Junior Mints in my example rather than items A, B, and C.

Someone ticked at me? Goal reached. [/sarcasm]

So I'm not sure what Mia rising has to do with Rolf.

BEXP in particular. Also consideration of resources.

I'm not suggesting Rolf is actually a drag on the team, because I can't really imagine how that could be so in this particular game. I played this game long enough ago and before I really started targeting efficiency so I'm not sure how he'd do from a purely efficient standpoint, but I never had issues using him effectively. Is Lower Mid a goal, or just > Elincia and possibly Shinon and Janaff? Also, with Tormod's 1-2 range and eventual staff usage and only 5 to 7 chapters less availability (depending on how we judge chapter 9 and 10) I'd say no matter what happens and whatever people can be convinced of, Tormod seems like an upper limit, though I'm not convinced Rolf can possibly get that high.

I'm not reaching towards the sky. Even over Shinon and Janaff would be fine enough for now. I just don't see him purely as "Low Tier" material.

In my opinion it's just time to stop the sandbagging.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

...I almost regret using Doritos/Caramilk/Junior Mints in my example rather than items A, B, and C.

Someone ticked at me? Goal reached. [/sarcasm]

<_< Should I use smileys next time I want to say a joke?

So I'm not sure what Mia rising has to do with Rolf.

BEXP in particular. Also consideration of resources.

Well, there's really no reason to deny a Rolf in play some bexp, nor to pretend it actually costs us anything (depending on how much). We get so much, after all. Not sure what level to place him at for chapter 11, though. (ie: how much bexp is reasonable, and how much cexp he can get in chapter 9)

I'm not reaching towards the sky. Even over Shinon and Janaff would be fine enough for now. I just don't see him purely as "Low Tier" material.

In my opinion it's just time to stop the sandbagging.

I don't really remember how open some of the chapters are or how fast we are moving. I never had issues utilizing his offence on player phase nor did I have issues preventing him from getting attacked on enemy phase. Don't remember how fast/slow I went, though. Considering all the units not ORKOing, he helped me about as well as could be expected.