FE9 Tier list v3

[Sol Hiryu]

Mist is in a tricky spot, from what I've seen. Everything before her promotion is average, since she's only a healer with 5 move, and the first Physic doesn't come until Chapter 15.

Figuring out her promotion is weird. There are several things that have Mist as high as she is; awesome support setups (Seriously, +5 Atk and Def?), being a mounted healer after promotion, and...her offense with the Sonic Sword. Early promotion will ruin said offense in favor of getting the pony earlier, which can help since several chapters around that time are fairly large. If someone does go for the Sonic Sword by pumping BEXP into her and giving her two Arms Scrolls (which are negligible for all but a few units), she can have instant SS access. But then you have the issue of giving BEXP to a healer and not getting immediate returns out of it other than improved healing. She can't leverage some/most of her supports until she's promoted, because 5 move only goes so far.

That said, it is possible to promote her by 18 if you leverage her some BEXP per each chapter and have her use staves each turn when possible. She more than likely won't be able to use one for every single turn, but she'll still gain enough EXP per chapter to at least get close to a level. Maybe sealing her around level 17/18 would help?

As for the tier gap, I'm not too eager to broach that topic, considering the huge Mist vs. Volke debate that went on earlier. If it does get brought up again, expect to see extreme sandbagging. However, being a mounted healer after promotion > not being one after promotion, so she's considerably better than Rhys. How much so is the remaining question.

[Florete]

I recall, Interceptor, that you had plenty of BEXP left over? Why would you not give Mist plenty of levels while she's still at or near her base level in Ch. 10/11 when it hardly even takes anything to do so? And then of course, there are things like Torch and Ward staves to help as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

I recall, Interceptor, that you had plenty of BEXP left over? Why would you not give Mist plenty of levels while she's still at or near her base level in Ch. 10/11 when it hardly even takes anything to do so? And then of course, there are things like Torch and Ward staves to help as well.

Well, he said he did spam torch in chapter 14.

I would like to know what level she's at in chapter 18, though, and thus what she would need in chapter 10 or 11 to get to promotion for chapter 18 or 19.

[Interceptor]

[...] That said, it is possible to promote her by 18 if you leverage her some BEXP per each chapter and have her use staves each turn when possible. She more than likely won't be able to use one for every single turn, but she'll still gain enough EXP per chapter to at least get close to a level. Maybe sealing her around level 17/18 would help?

Hmm. Since Mist's staff EXP gain is not pro-rated by levels, the most efficient way to BEXP her is immediately, when it's cheaper. I am thinking that the most efficient way to use her is with a big, early shot to the ass. Once she promotes, you can take your foot off the gas since she's able to take kills now, and can heal more often.

As for the tier gap, I'm not too eager to broach that topic, considering the huge Mist vs. Volke debate that went on earlier. If it does get brought up again, expect to see extreme sandbagging. However, being a mounted healer after promotion > not being one after promotion, so she's considerably better than Rhys. How much so is the remaining question.

Not touching that with a 10 foot pole. The only thing I hate more than tiering healers is tiering Raisin thieves.

I recall, Interceptor, that you had plenty of BEXP left over? Why would you not give Mist plenty of levels while she's still at or near her base level in Ch. 10/11 when it hardly even takes anything to do so? And then of course, there are things like Torch and Ward staves to help as well.

Indeed, I did have plenty of BEXP left over. Looks like you just talked me into another playthrough.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Interceptor

[Interceptor]

Current levels of active participants in my aborted playthrough at Ch. 18:

Ike: 20/1 (duh)

Ilyana: 20/3, EX 19

Mia: 20/5, EX 38

Boyd: 20/4, EX 0

Kieran: 20/4, EX 42

Rhys: 10, EX 11

Titania: 20/11, EX 19

Oscar: 20/4, EX 68

Mist: 6, EX 2

Astrid: 20/5, EX 44

Everyone else is base level, or was lightly used and only levelled a little (like Soren). I have 1521 points of BEXP availible to me currently.

For those of you who have no idea how much that is, I can take Nephenee from her current level (7 base) all the way to 20, pop her with a Scroll and a Steel forge, and she'll be ORKO'ing (immediately or soon after her very quick promotion) even though I've never used her. AKA, Nephenee is essentially a drop-in replacement for any of those above units.

If I focused on Mist to the exclusion of Rhys, spamming Wards and such, I could probably get away with giving her ~10 BEXP'ed levels in the earlygame, I guess.

[Narga_Rocks]

For those of you who have no idea how much that is, I can take Nephenee from her current level (7 base) all the way to 20, pop her with a Scroll and a Steel forge, and she'll be ORKO'ing (immediately or soon after her very quick promotion) even though I've never used her. AKA, Nephenee is essentially a drop-in replacement for any of those above units.

Not that it matters much, but Halberdier (F) base lance level is C. Meaning the promotion should put her over the top. I know Soldier (F) base is D yet somehow she is E, but I'm guessing that's different. All I know is, mages jump to all Ds if they aren't already, since I used to leave fire alone on Ilyana and it always jumped to D from E(oops, E to D) at promotion.

So yeah, just the bexp and a steel forge and she's going around at 20/1 with 30 mt/20AS if you give her a max mt steel.

3x Wyvern Rider lv 14-15 (steel lance)

31 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 95 hit, 21 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Fighter lv 20 (steel axe, hand axe, vulnerary)

40 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 92 hit, 29 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

1x Knight lv 16 (knight killer [d])

33 hp, 19 atk (26 eff), 0 AS, 91 hit, 3 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 3 cev

1x General lv 1 (short spear, vulnerary)

32 hp, 22 atk, 6 AS, 93 hit, 15 avo, 17 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x General lv 1 (laguz lance)

32 hp, 26 atk (38 eff), 2 AS, 98 hit, 7 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

2x Sword Knight lv 19 (steel sword, vulnerary)

34 hp, 21 atk, 14 AS, 98 hit, 33 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

1x Lance Knight lv 20 (steel lance, javelin)

33 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 91 hit, 31 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 6 cev

Ravens have too much speed. 7 ravens total. At least she 2HKOs.

Careful observers might notice that out of 36 units, she KOs 19 of them with just the bexp dump.

Also, aside from the generals/knights and the ravens, these units end up with <= 2 hp after facing Neph.

4 end up with 1 hp, and 3 end up with 2 hp. Obviously, the generals/knights and ravens have more afterwards.

So she KOs 19 enemies, leaves another 7 with <= 2 hp. That's with just a bexp dump and a forge and nothing else.

That's a lot of bexp left over, considering with just an iron forge right now she has 20 mt and 11 AS and is doing quite badly.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

Anyway, let's go along with Int's levels and call Gatrie like 20/6 by C18 [Maybe 20/7 is more accurate?]

That's 11 AS base. 9 levels with the KW, which is what Smash gave him, and he has an opportunity to be higher due to the fact he gained more levels, but I'll be nice and assume it's only 10. This results in 14 AS, which is nearly what Brom had in Smash's earlier comparison, but of course Brom would be a higher level and double more things too...

Edited October 3, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Sol Hiryu]

I don't know...20/5 for everyone else is fine and reasonable, but Armors like Gatrie are a different story, considering they only have 5 move (not to mention all the terrain they're slowed down in...), and Gatrie's speed is less than optimal. I think 20/6 by Chapter 18 is very much overleveled for him, considering most units have move advantages on him and will see action more than he will. Unless we gave him a BEXP dump, which is sorta reasonable.

Something like 20/3 would probably be more accurate for both him and Brom, IMO.

[Interceptor]

Getting to 20/4+ by Ch. 18 represents a sizable chunk of BEXP when it comes to either of them, you're not getting there with just kills alone. The upshot is perhaps that more of those levels are happening in base with the KW. Gatrie probably has a slight KW advantage since you get him back at 10 or 11 in the same chapter as the KW. Brom starts at 8 and needs to get through Ch. 11 and 12 before he has access to the KW. You can hold off on pumping Brom full of BEXP, but that will hurt his contribution in those chapters.

[Zkirsche]

Edit: Nevermind.

Not touching that with a 10 foot pole. The only thing I hate more than tiering healers is tiering Raisin thieves.

Especially when it's a thief vs healer argument.

Edited October 3, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

Since I was out for about a month, I want to ask:

When exactly was Mia considered a viable support for Ilyana? I always thought that she (Ilyana) didn't really give a damn about Mia's bonuses, and I also saw it mentioned that Ilyana's other partners have other options. I'll admit that might be the case for Zihark, but Mordecai? Admittedly, Mordy's most likely going to get an A Mist, so I'll leave that, but I'd consider Ilyana better for Mordy than his other options (lolUlki, latecomer pathetic bonuses Ranulf, pathetic bonuses Stefan)...

[Interceptor]

What definition of "viable" do you have that MiaxIlyana does not qualify for?

[Zkirsche]

Ilyana actually DOES like the Atk, as I've shown in my debate with Tino, and Ilyana x Mordy has a massive problem: mov difference, which seems to be oh so important for arguments against Rhys x Anyone. The same logic should apply here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since I was out for about a month, I want to ask:

When exactly was Mia considered a viable support for Ilyana? I always thought that she (Ilyana) didn't really give a damn about Mia's bonuses, and I also saw it mentioned that Ilyana's other partners have other options. I'll admit that might be the case for Zihark, but Mordecai? Admittedly, Mordy's most likely going to get an A Mist, so I'll leave that, but I'd consider Ilyana better for Mordy than his other options (lolUlki, latecomer pathetic bonuses Ranulf, pathetic bonuses Stefan)...

And how is Gatrie or Lucia a superior support to Mia? Since Ilyana could have trouble getting Zihark, Mia is viable. Not sure how much +1 mt helps, but if she gets C Mordy/Mia at first, then as soon as chapter 12 rolls around she gets +1 mt, and gets another +1 mt as of chapter 16. The only time she isn't getting an extra +1 mt is in chapter 15, assuming she and Mordy and Mia are all deployed each chapter.

Considering how forges are limited, I should think that any time Ilyana with +1 mt over just Mordecai is able to KO somebody else's leavings with an elthunder instead of a forge it's an advantage. A forge on Ilyana could theoretically last 2 or 3 more chapters than normal simply because of the +1 mt. Also, there is bound to be something she 2HKOs on her own instead of 3HKOs along the way thanks to the +1mt. Even if it's only 2 or 3 enemies per chapter.

I suppose Zihark A Ilyana B Brom is technically superior in the end to A Brom B Ilyana, because 2.5 hit compared to .5 mt means 2 hit vs. nothing. But it seems to me that it is easier for Brom to stay within 3 than for Ilyana because Ilyana's durability doesn't become super amazing from the +15 avo Zihark provides. Oh, and Brom is a fair amount faster than Ilyana, so the A support activates 5 chapters sooner. No real reason for Zihark to support Ilyana with an A, because 5 chapters more of +5 avo is >>> 2 hit for 4 chapters. So she's only likely to get 10 avo out of Zihark, and 1 def out of Mordy. Considering +5 avo probably does almost nothing for her, she's not getting much out of Zihark until chapter 21. Considering chapters 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 all give her +1 mt with Mia vs. without, and she retains the +1 mt for chapter 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, you have to ask whether or not 10 avo is greater than 1 mt for her by ~1.89 times.

I'd have to say, maybe it is, but not by enough that B Mia x Ilyana is somehow not possible often enough to matter, especially when you throw in the possibility of Zihark supporting with Muarim. Oh, don't forget: thunder's accuracy isn't the greatest, so Mia also provides +2/+5 hit, and unlike with a sword user with lots of skill, Ilyana could actually make use of that hit.

Let's look at Zihark:

Ilyana provides +5 avo for chapters 16, 17, 18, then C Muarim could have been active, and results in +2 avo over C Ilyana for 19 and 20. Then in chapter 21 he can have B Ilyana, so +3 over C Muarim. Then in chapter 22 and beyond it's B Muarim vs. B Ilyana, which is +5 avo for Zihark for 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29.

So Ilyana provides 3 chapters of +5 and 1 chapter of +3. Muarim provides 2 chapters of +2 and 8 chapters of +5.

Um, 18 vs. 44. That's a pretty big win for the Muarim support, though I suppose Ilyana is providing 2 and 5 hit over that time, but with swords and Zihark's skill and luck, does it matter?

Okay, well, there is also the defence she provides:

Zihark hits B Brom in chapter 18, and C Ilyana in chapter 16. So for 2 chapters that is +1 def over what he'd be getting anyway. Then he hits A Brom and B Ilyana at the same time, so Zihark would have +2 def with an A Brom + C Muarim combo at that time anyway.

So, yeah, I suppose chapter 17 is longer than others, but that doesn't get 18 very close to 44 anyway since it's not like 4 full chapters, and even that would only be 33 vs. 44. And +1 def for 2 chapters doesn't seem major either, and the hit boost is pointless unless Zihark equips a silver blade.

So we've gone over what Ilyana gets and what Zihark gets, what about Mia?

So Mia goes with A Rhys and B Ilyana. Without Ilyana she needs Largo.

She hits C/B/A Rhys in chapters 12/16/20.

She hits C/B Ilyana in chapters 13/17.

She hits C/B Largo in chapters 26/27.

Thus, she gets +1 mt from chapter 17 until chapter 27. So 10 chapters, including the long one, of +1 mt. Also, +1 def from chapter 17 until the end of the game.

Also, +5 hit from chapter 13 till 17, and +10 hit from chapter 17 to 26, then +5 hit in chapter 26 and no extra hit in chapter 27.

Does the hit really matter? Well, no, like with Zihark, except with the Silver Blade. However, with Mia's comparable skill and luck (results in maybe -2 or -3 hit at times) but superior hit from supports (+15 in chapter 16, +20 in chapter 17 to 19, +25 in chapter 20, compared to Zihark getting +2 in chapter 16 to 20 and +5 in chapter 21 and on) I'd say having Mia use a 60hit weapon is safer than having Zihark use it. A 15 mt weapon in chapter 16 that reliably hits stuff is nothing to sneeze at.

So basically, in order for Mia to not get Ilyana, we have to:

(fielding Mia or this discussion is pointless)

1. Field Zihark

2. Not field Muarim

3. Decide that we'd rather leave Mia without the extra mt and hit and def in favour of giving Zihark 10 extra avo and 1 extra def and we'd rather have Ilyana do less damage and be less accurate with elthunder/thunder and forge (unless we forge extra hit). Oh, and whichever silver blade user we choose to use will have at least 10 less hit than we could make use of otherwise (except chapter 16 where it's only 5 less).

So, from what I'm seeing, it's gotta be just as viable as Ilyana supporting Zihark, and considering 1 and 2 may not even happen most of the time we field Mia, and even when they do 3 may not happen either, I'd have to say there is no reason to tier Mia as if she can't get the Ilyana support. (Nor is there a strong reason to tier Zihark as if he can't get the Ilyana support if he wants it, though there is reason to give him Muarim anyway so that point may not matter much).

edit:

(didn't see Kirsche's post) Oh, right, move difference. Ilyana may even be willing to take A/B Zihark + B Mia if we decide to value the move difference. Make that #4 on my list above.

4: Decide that we want Ilyana supporting Mordecai despite the move difference, or Gatrie despite the 5 chapter difference in the support speed and lack of mt, or Lucia despite the many many chapter difference, all of which requiring fielding one of them as well.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Ilyana actually DOES like the Atk, as I've shown in my debate with Tino, and Ilyana x Mordy has a massive problem: mov difference, which seems to be oh so important for arguments against Rhys x Anyone. The same logic should apply here.

Oh, NOW you mention the move difference? Because I never really saw anything mentioned about the move difference until now. Then again, I couldn't use the internet for a month, barring sporadic posts here and there, so...

@ Narga: I left Gatrie and Lucia out since I thought the usefulness of the Gatrie support was questionable, and I wasn't about to even go so far as to make a case for Lucia supporting Ilyana...

Edited October 7, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

Ilyana actually DOES like the Atk, as I've shown in my debate with Tino, and Ilyana x Mordy has a massive problem: mov difference, which seems to be oh so important for arguments against Rhys x Anyone. The same logic should apply here.

Oh, NOW you mention the move difference? Because I never really saw anything mentioned about the move difference until now. Then again, I couldn't use the internet for a month, barring sporadic posts here and there, so...

@ Narga: I left Gatrie and Lucia out since I thought the usefulness of the Gatrie support was questionable, and I wasn't about to even go so far as to make a case for Lucia supporting ILyana...

I only mentioned the others because Mordecai and Zihark are her other best options. As soon as there are issues getting Zihark, what's the problem with Mia?

saw it mentioned that Ilyana's other partners have other options. I'll admit that might be the case for Zihark, but Mordecai?

It doesn't really matter if she can get Mordecai no problem. I felt I had to mention Gatrie and Lucia because of that.

[dondon151]

Move difference isn't as severe of a problem in this game because you don't need to be adjacent or rescued to build support points.

[nflchamp]

Move difference is important in this game because nothing is slowing me down. At least the enemies aren't.

[dondon151]

Enemies are pretty shitty in FE7 and FE8 too, so that doesn't refute my statement.

[nflchamp]

I don't see how it doesn't. If there is nothing stopping me from using all 9 mov of a 9 mov unit each and every turn, then a 7 mov unit sure as hell isn't going to be able to easily keep in support range.

[Progenitus]

Move differences in supports are overrated.

It's not the fact that Mordy has 9 move and Ilyana has 6 and thus they'll never be in support range. It's the fact that Mordy is ridiculously durable already and just goes wherever he wants, and he's not restricted to staying within Ilyana's support range because he doesn't need the bonuses (or rather, they don't help him much).

If it wasn't Mordy we're talking about, but someone with less durability unsupported, like Tanith, then Tanith will make an actual effort to stay next to Ilyana for the bonuses, despite a huge move gap between them.

A perfect example would be Oscar in FE10. Despite having more mobility than anyone he'd realistically support, he's not going to blast ahead with his 9 move because his durability sucks without supports, so he'll make an effort to stay next to his supporter himself. On the other hand, Ike in FE10 is the opposite; he's so durable he just goes wherever he wants, so his supporter has to keep up with him if they want the bonuses.

[Zkirsche]

Oh, NOW you mention the move difference? Because I never really saw anything mentioned about the move difference until now. Then again, I couldn't use the internet for a month, barring sporadic posts here and there, so...

No one really said anything about Mordy x Ilyana.

A perfect example would be Oscar in FE10. Despite having more mobility than anyone he'd realistically support, he's not going to blast ahead with his 9 move because his durability sucks without supports, so he'll make an effort to stay next to his supporter himself.

This doesn't erase the fact that Oscar would prefer a 9 mov support so his durability from his support is actually used to it's full potential. Just because he wants the bonuses doesn't mean he'd be willing to take Ilyana over Titania.

[Progenitus]

This doesn't erase the fact that Oscar would prefer a 9 mov support so his durability from his support is actually used to it's full potential. Just because he wants the bonuses doesn't mean he'd be willing to take Ilyana over Titania.

That's a rather moot point since Oscar's first choices would be people that give att, like Boyd or Soren or something. (technically, his first choice would be lolike, but since everyone wants ike...)

But in FE10 if he was forced to choose between ILyana or Titania, sure, he'd take Titania.

[Life]

I have problems with your tier list. Namely with Mia > Soren. What's your reasoning before I go and blast it?

[Interceptor]

I have problems with your tier list. Namely with Mia > Soren. What's your reasoning before I go and blast it?

I have a better idea: what's your reasoning for Soren being > Mia? You might want to read what argued Mia up first, though (it did happen in recent thread history), it might be fatal to your Soren case.