FE9 Tier list v3

[Life]

I have a better idea: what's your reasoning for Soren being > Mia? You might want to read what argued Mia up first, though (it did happen in recent thread history), it might be fatal to your Soren case.

Very well. But I haven't read it up, yeah. Too much to go through. I'm just assuming the one difference between your list and mine (GameFAQs).

I'm assuming that Mia's so high because she gets Wrath, correct? What if she doesn't? There's only 1 Wrath scroll in the game and Mia's not the only contender for it. Zihark would love it, any Paladin would love it... Hell, anyone with a much better defence and half decent offence wants that Wrath scroll. And Wrath works better when coupled with Resolve, another skill that Mia would have to fight for. Except, she then has to always keep her HP under 20 with only 15 Def to back it up to actually use these awesome skills. Her Avo might be high (80 is rather nice at 20/20) but since she's not getting to 20/20, I assume that at Endgame, she'll be at 20/12 at highest with 73 Avo. Since most enemies in Endgame have about 120 Hit, that's 47% of the time that Mia gets hit. And with enemy Atk floating at about 30 Atk on average (not counting Laguz), Mia's got survivability issues and can't actually use Wrath to the best of her abilities than say Nephenee or Oscar or anyone else who might want it (Zihark's out of the question for the same reason).

If you give Mia Wrath, sure she's good. But she's not entitled to it in any way. And then after Wrath comes the Earlygame problem AKA I can only do 2 damage to anything or I can get doubled while holding the Armourslayer for some damage.

Without even looking at the defense, let's focus in on Mia's chip shot offence as I like to call it. She's got 7 Str with a 40% growth rate. Which isn't bad, right? But if you look at the units around her who are also growing (Ike, Boyd, Oscar, Soren and I guess we can also say Ilyana for once we get her next chapter), they have higher Str/Mag growths than her depending on what they use to attack. "But Myrmidons were never meant to be hard hitting, they're about being fast, right?" calls out little Timmy in the back of the class. However, her Spd is another problem in and of itself. You see, Mia overkills in Spd, reaching the Myrmidon max cap at about level 18 of 20. I guess you can say that the overkill is to make up for the fact that she'll take AS penalties for wielding weapons but here's the rub. Mia's already passed the level where she doesn't take a penalty from Steel Swords ages ago (level 14 to be exact)! I call that a waste of growth right there. If Mia's going to max Spd anyways in 1st job, forgetting 2nd, then shouldn't she have a bit more Str instead of such a ridiculous Spd growth? Using Chapter 17 as the "promotion chapter", the lowest possible AS she needs to double the entire map is 18! Those last 2 points would be a lot better if they had been placed in Str.

The overkill in Spd doesn't actually prove anything, though. It's just me saying that having that much Spd when she could have it as Str is kinda pointless for her. Let's look at the actual offensive output.

From what I can see, most of the enemies in Chapter 7 have about 6-7 Def, with Myrmidons and Mages being lower than that and Knights sitting at 14 on average. Assuming that Mia gets the Armourslayer (Ike's got the Regal Sword, why should he also get the Armourslayer), she has 2 options for attack. She can either double with an Iron Sword (12 Atk - 7 Def = 5 Damage a shot) or equip the Armourslayer and go for big numbers (15 Atk - 7 Def = 8 Damage but with only 3 AS). And this is before you factor in WTD for Mia because this level is mostly soldiers and knights. It's either mediocre chip damage (Soldiers have about 25 HP - most common enemy in chapter) or a much higher shot which gets Mia doubled by some of the soldiers.

When you factor in her Def (7 Def, 6 Res) and enemy attacks (Soldiers do about 8 damage with WTA, Knights do more...), coupled with Mia's 21 HP, she's a 3HKO unit on your side. The only thing she has to combat that is her 32 Avo... but has a WTD so she loses 10 Avo to Soldiers while they get 10 hit. 85 is the average Hit for a Soldier so he now has a 73% chance of hitting Mia and Mia has a 39% chance of dying in 3 consecutive hits. Ouch.

Her rocky start only deteriorates. Chapter 8 has Cavs to the south, Knights to the east and Soldiers + Archers to the west. I wonder which exit she's defending. Mia gets her chances in Chapter 9 to shine (Brigands in the north and Mages to the south) but 10 is once again almost fully lances and 0 axes to fight. And then Zihark comes in Chapter 11, taking over Mia's duties with ease.

As for Soren, he's immidiately useful. Assuming that you've saved the Seraph Robe in Chapter 1, he uses it right away in Chapter 4 just to survive. But Soren's not like Mia by being a defensive liability and only doing minor damage; no, he's roasting enemies with Wind magic because enemies have an average Res of 1 and he's got 8 Atk, doubling most of the map. However, unlike Mia, he has Adept on his side, adding to his damage (8% of the time is a bit weak but since he doubles a lot, his chances of it activating become greater). And since Soren's a backliner, while Mia's a frontliner, Soren's eating less attacks than Mia would.

Now let's fastforward to Chapter 7, where Mia joins. Soren's about... Well, he was level 5 in my game at this point so I think that he's at a reasonable level. Anyways, Soren now has 8 Mag and and 9 Spd, along 10 Skl which gives Adept a 10% chance of happening, or once every 5 attacks (Soren still doubles). He still has that 1 AS penalty but either way, he's got 8 AS which allows him to double 25/32 enemies on the map. He's doing 8 damage a shot, doubling most enemies and gets well protected. Soren's also more effective on the Knights than Mia with an armourslayer, mostly because he actually doubles them.

Soren's earlygame > Mia's. Once you get to the endgame, both are respectively good and about equal in use. Mia can dodge her way through anybody (if she's not relying on Wrath as her damage output) and Soren can rip anything to bits with his magic. I'd give the higher spot to Soren based solely on earlygame performance but he shouldn't be much higher than Mia.

PS: Our own tier list has Mia WAY down. I don't personally agree with it but she's not upper-mid material.

[Narga_Rocks]

PS: Our own tier list has Mia WAY down. I don't personally agree with it but she's not upper-mid material.

Your list was made by smash. Of course Mia is way down. Smash's opinions don't really have much in common with reality.

First off: Use Bexp. LIke, on everyone. At least, those that you will continue using. Mia has no business being anything less than level 8 in chapter 8. Probably higher, depending on your team set up and how much bexp improves anybody else. Eg: Boyd doesn't really need to go past level 10.

Anyway, url time:

Also known as, required reading. Now, with over 200 posts I had to choose some of the ones I thought were most in line with the discussion. Some of these aren't airtight posts, but I included them anyway because they were important parts of the development. I may have even missed some. Regardless, I feel this is a good representation of just how Mia came to be where she is now, so you don't have to go through over 200 posts to find out, just 35. Some of them are even shortish posts.

one

two (notice the close start, how does Zihark instantly replace her? And Mia could be higher, read on)

three

four

five (no, Zihark is not good for wrath if Mia is in play and him. By the time you get wrath his supports should be up and running, so he's already got durability. They both likely 3HKO most things and have crit and he has adept, so there is really no point boosting it further. Mia takes wrath, already has vantage, and her durability goes way up along with her offence. If both units are in play and you give wrath to Zihark, Mia is stuck without wrath and Zihark doesn't improve the overall power level of the team nearly as much since he was already pretty good durably. Neph has wrath already, so what was up with that? Most of your paladins are top/high tiers that ORKO almost everything in existence with a forge or in some cases even without. And have much durability. Again, power level of the team only goes up a smidgeon in comparison to Mia getting it. But her current position does not actually rely on wrath since Cynthia isn't really willing to just give it to her.)

six

seven

eight

nine

ten

eleven

twelve

thirteen

fourteen (if you don't read any others, read this one.)

fifteen (follow up in response to a complaint that the amount of bexp applied to Mia was too high)

sixteen

seventeen

eighteen

nineteen

twenty

twenty one

twenty two

twenty three

twenty four

twenty five

twenty six

twenty seven (note that if someone else has vantage + wrath then guard on anyone but Mia is virtually pointless, and someone with just wrath but not vantage is not using wrath to its full potential)

twenty eight (here is a fun one about Stefan, someone far too high on smash's list, considering the placement of certain other units)

twenty nine (smash has never really cared about some units having a higher chance of causing resets than others. see: Aran in 1-4 in RD)

thirty

thirty one

thirty two (note how Mia doesn't even need much beyond level 6 (7 might do it, 8 should do it) to double armours with the armourslayer despite its weight)

thirty three

thirty four (this is funny because it highlights how much bexp int had left over even after using it on units throughout his playthrough.

thirty five

The biggest difference here is that we assume bexp is actually used, which means in chapter 8 Mia should not be level 6 or 7 and Soren should likely be a bit higher too. And this list mostly assumes stealth in chapter 10 so any number of lance users there don't much matter. Also, I know smash's tier list has Soren > Zihark, but that isn't the case here and since Mia is arguably better than Zihark until he hits BC on his supports, I'd have to suggest that if Zihark > Soren here then Mia > Soren as well is fine too, so any lance issues beyond chapter 10 aren't really an issue for Mia if they aren't for Zihark.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Very well. But I haven't read it up, yeah. Too much to go through. I'm just assuming the one difference between your list and mine (GameFAQs).

Well, this post of mine is basically redundant after that carpet-bomb from Narga, but hopefully at this point you more fully understand exactly why I said to read what was written first. You say that you only made one assumption, but you actually made several, and unfortunately that lapse invalidates about 90% of your post.

PS: Our own tier list has Mia WAY down. I don't personally agree with it but she's not upper-mid material.

I abandoned the GF PoR tier list a long time ago. The people who were involved at the time were not ranking characters according to any particular standard. It sounds like that is more or less still the case there, if Mia is in the toilet.

[Narga_Rocks]

Very well. But I haven't read it up, yeah. Too much to go through. I'm just assuming the one difference between your list and mine (GameFAQs).

Well, this post of mine is basically redundant after that carpet-bomb from Narga, but hopefully at this point you more fully understand exactly why I said to read what was written first. You say that you only made one assumption, but you actually made several, and unfortunately that lapse invalidates about 90% of your post.

Well, I did a tally of whose posts I linked:

me, 15

you, 10

Red Fox, 3

kirsche, 2

dondon, 2

Athena's Chest, 2

Raymond, 1

So the bomb is only partly made by me. My last post is more of a captain planet carpet-bomb. Or like an air-strike with multiple planes.

[Dat Nick]

Question: When does Soren's offense stop phailing? I actually think him vs Mia is debatable depending on how long it takes for his offense to pick up.

[Interceptor]

I don't think that his offense is actually that bad. I was going to use him in my latest FE9 runthrough, to see how he did, but I got distracted by a shiny object. He can't possibly be worse than Ilyana, offensively, and she did fairly well for me when I was using her as Mia's supporter.

Naturally they both have issues with MV, which can be a significant issue when even the 7MV people are falling behind.

[Dat Nick]

I know Soren's offense is good, the thing is that it's shit when he joins because he can't double. I want to know how long it takes for him to get out of that.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Interceptor]

Well, I'd say it takes him until Chapter 8, when you can dump a bunch of BEXP down his throat (more than Mia, but it won't break the bank). Soren's doubling problems aren't SPD-related, they are largely because of his noobshit joining level (and his STR I guess, but you can forge your way out of that before promotion).

Edited October 20, 2009 by Interceptor

[Life]

Your list was made by smash. Of course Mia is way down. Smash's opinions don't really have much in common with reality.

First off: Use Bexp. LIke, on everyone. At least, those that you will continue using. Mia has no business being anything less than level 8 in chapter 8. Probably higher, depending on your team set up and how much bexp improves anybody else. Eg: Boyd doesn't really need to go past level 10.

Anyway, url time:

Also known as, required reading. Now, with over 200 posts I had to choose some of the ones I thought were most in line with the discussion. Some of these aren't airtight posts, but I included them anyway because they were important parts of the development. I may have even missed some. Regardless, I feel this is a good representation of just how Mia came to be where she is now, so you don't have to go through over 200 posts to find out, just 35. Some of them are even shortish posts.

one

two (notice the close start, how does Zihark instantly replace her? And Mia could be higher, read on)

three

four

five (no, Zihark is not good for wrath if Mia is in play and him. By the time you get wrath his supports should be up and running, so he's already got durability. They both likely 3HKO most things and have crit and he has adept, so there is really no point boosting it further. Mia takes wrath, already has vantage, and her durability goes way up along with her offence. If both units are in play and you give wrath to Zihark, Mia is stuck without wrath and Zihark doesn't improve the overall power level of the team nearly as much since he was already pretty good durably. Neph has wrath already, so what was up with that? Most of your paladins are top/high tiers that ORKO almost everything in existence with a forge or in some cases even without. And have much durability. Again, power level of the team only goes up a smidgeon in comparison to Mia getting it. But her current position does not actually rely on wrath since Cynthia isn't really willing to just give it to her.)

six

seven

eight

nine

ten

eleven

twelve

thirteen

fourteen (if you don't read any others, read this one.)

fifteen (follow up in response to a complaint that the amount of bexp applied to Mia was too high)

sixteen

seventeen

eighteen

nineteen

twenty

twenty one

twenty two

twenty three

twenty four

twenty five

twenty six

twenty seven (note that if someone else has vantage + wrath then guard on anyone but Mia is virtually pointless, and someone with just wrath but not vantage is not using wrath to its full potential)

twenty eight (here is a fun one about Stefan, someone far too high on smash's list, considering the placement of certain other units)

twenty nine (smash has never really cared about some units having a higher chance of causing resets than others. see: Aran in 1-4 in RD)

thirty

thirty one

thirty two (note how Mia doesn't even need much beyond level 6 (7 might do it, 8 should do it) to double armours with the armourslayer despite its weight)

thirty three

thirty four (this is funny because it highlights how much bexp int had left over even after using it on units throughout his playthrough.

thirty five

The biggest difference here is that we assume bexp is actually used, which means in chapter 8 Mia should not be level 6 or 7 and Soren should likely be a bit higher too. And this list mostly assumes stealth in chapter 10 so any number of lance users there don't much matter. Also, I know smash's tier list has Soren > Zihark, but that isn't the case here and since Mia is arguably better than Zihark until he hits BC on his supports, I'd have to suggest that if Zihark > Soren here then Mia > Soren as well is fine too, so any lance issues beyond chapter 10 aren't really an issue for Mia if they aren't for Zihark.

Before I start, I'm just going to say two things.

1. Not all of us are stupid idiots over there. I prefer to debate the FE7 tier list personally because there's a lot less fingerpointing and a lot more proper information that flies around. Don't lump me in with everyone else at GF.

2. We basically have 2 tier lists floating around, Smash's and Snowy_One's. Both contradict each other and both have problems with them. This one makes a lot more sense to ASIDE from Mia > Soren. That's the only "obvious" problem I see with it. And obvious is in quotations because I have a problem with you, you guys probably don't.

Anyways, I read through most of the links that you gave me but a couple went right over my head because something was wrong with what was written.

#32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations.

#14 - I love this post. Mostly because the writer is so inflamed when he's writing it...

Anyways, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE DOESN'T MATTER. Once again, you guys should know this. Everyone in the game aside from like Bastian is good enough to rip through hordes of enemies if given lots of BExp. And it's not that I don't think the amount of BExp given is way too high, rather that giving that much BExp to any unit will usually achieve similar results. I can BExp Astrid, Makalov or Tormod up to level 16/0 once I get them and they will do the same thing that Mia did in your example, that is kill. Well, maybe not Astrid until she promotes but I threw her in there because she comes underleveled. My point is, you are using emotional reasoning in that case to say "Mia is awesome". It proves that Mia is good if you give her that much BExp but it doesn't prove that she is better than any other unit.

#5 - How about we change that to "Zihark is pointless if you have Mia in play" and vice-versa? Why would you ever use them both in the same team?

Not only that but the excuse "If you give Wrath to Zihark, then Mia doesn't have Wrath and can't reach her potential" is dumb. That's like saying that Karel should be lower on the FE7 tier list because he stops you from getting Harken and the Brave Sword. It's a cop out excuse, in my opinion.

That's the big problems that I've found with someof those posts. I can examine it in depth if you want but I wait here and ask you to prove why Mia is better than Soren. I've already brought my case to the table.

[Florete]

#32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations.

This tier list is not based on fixed mode, it's random (I'm 85% sure anyway). Whether a stat rounds up or down is based on chance. They do not automatically round down.

#14 - I love this post. Mostly because the writer is so inflamed when he's writing it...

Anyways, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE DOESN'T MATTER. Once again, you guys should know this.

PEMN only applies to the randomness of the RNG. Interceptor's playing was based on fixed mode, which gives a very accurate representation of a units abilities at the specific level. PEMN does not work here.

Everyone in the game aside from like Bastian is good enough to rip through hordes of enemies if given lots of BExp. And it's not that I don't think the amount of BExp given is way too high, rather that giving that much BExp to any unit will usually achieve similar results. I can BExp Astrid, Makalov or Tormod up to level 16/0 once I get them and they will do the same thing that Mia did in your example, that is kill. Well, maybe not Astrid until she promotes but I threw her in there because she comes underleveled. My point is, you are using emotional reasoning in that case to say "Mia is awesome". It proves that Mia is good if you give her that much BExp but it doesn't prove that she is better than any other unit.

If that's how it is, that's just how it is. You can't deny a unit something that's basically free just because it makes that unit awesome. As long as the price is low, which it is with BEXP. This is basic Economics here: Opportunity Cost and Dimishing Marginal Returns. If needed, someone can get into an Economics lesson, we've had plenty in these forums.

#5 - How about we change that to "Zihark is pointless if you have Mia in play" and vice-versa? Why would you ever use them both in the same team?

What's the problem with it? They don't cancel each other out. Ilyana aside, they support different people. They can both be used.

[dondon151]

#32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations.

Next time someone says this, I'm smashing his/her face in. Copious use of the floor function doesn't accurately represent likelihoods.

[Narga_Rocks]

Before I start, I'm just going to say two things.

1. Not all of us are stupid idiots over there. I prefer to debate the FE7 tier list personally because there's a lot less fingerpointing and a lot more proper information that flies around. Don't lump me in with everyone else at GF.

Except you could easily try to argue Mia up in the PoR list and it wouldn't work. You said yourself you think she could be higher than she is on smash's list. I was just telling you why its never going to change.

2. We basically have 2 tier lists floating around, Smash's and Snowy_One's. Both contradict each other and both have problems with them. This one makes a lot more sense to ASIDE from Mia > Soren. That's the only "obvious" problem I see with it. And obvious is in quotations because I have a problem with you, you guys probably don't.

Snowy's got locked, right?

And, is that: Problem with me personally?

Anyways, I read through most of the links that you gave me but a couple went right over my head because something was wrong with what was written.

#32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations.

Um, armors have 0 or 2 AS. What's the problem?

Besides, probability mean anything? 8.6 str and 15.4 spd.

Unlike RD I don't have anything I can link you to, since FEPlanet doesn't have probability, but the probability of having str + spd <= 23 is undoubtedly lower than 50% by a significant amount.

Mia starts with 7 + 13 = 20.

I need:

P(20) + P(21) + P(22) + P(23).

If that is under 50%, it is somewhat reasonable to say she has 7 AS. If that is under 35%, then you basically have to accept it.

Actually, I can use RD if I can find a unit with a 40% growth and a 60% growth.

just click on str and lck

So, Danved: str and luck will represent Mia's str and spd:

So, the situations in which Mia has <= 6 AS are:

0 str and 0, 1, 2, 3 spd

1 str and 0, 1, 2 spd

2 str and 0, 1 spd

3 str and 0 spd

That's it.

So, for Danved, this is the probability of:

0 str and <= 3 luck

1 str and <= 2 luck

2 str and <= 1 luck

3 str and 0 luck

Okay, so:

P(0 str) = .13

P(1 str) = .35

P(2 str) = .35

P(3 str) = .15

P(<= 3 lck) = .87

P(<= 2 lck) = .52

P(<= 1 lck) = .18

P(= 0 lck) = .03

So P(<= 6 AS with armorslayer) = (.13 x .87) + (.35 x .52) + (.35 x .18) + (.15 x .03)

brackets for legibility.

P(thing) = .1131 + .182 + .063 + .0045

= 36.26%

Okay, so it's a bit over 35%, but Mia has a 63.74% chance of having 7AS with the armorslayer.

Compare to, say, Ike's chance of having at least 9 str at level 9. This is after 8 levels with a .5 growth to get 4 points or more. Note that this is 8 shots at a point, similar to Mia's 8 shots total at either spd or str.

I'll use Aran's hp growth, since it is 50%.

here

So, he has a ~36% chance of getting 3 hp or less in that time.

So, Ike only has a ~64% chance to get at least +4 str and hit at least 9 str by level 9.

Hence, despite getting a nice flashy 9.00 str at level 9 for Ike, he has approximately the same chance to actually get it as Mia does of actually getting at least 7AS with an armourslayer at level 10.

So I ask you, what is the logic in stating that Mia would get 6AS with the armourslayer at level 10 yet assuming that Ike will have 9str or more at level 9 when the probabilities are practically the same?

Incidentally, Mia has 70 base growth points in strength, so even if you argue fixed mode she still pulls it off since 7.7 + 1.6 = 9.3 and thus 9 str and 15 AS, AKA 7AS with armourslayer.

#14 - I love this post. Mostly because the writer is so inflamed when he's writing it...

Of course he's annoyed. People have been claiming she holds the party back and end up hurting the team or she's crappy or she's negative utility or wah wah wah for a long time. He's pointing out that based on the averages she's good enough.

Anyways, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE DOESN'T MATTER. Once again, you guys should know this. Everyone in the game aside from like Bastian is good enough to rip through hordes of enemies if given lots of BExp. And it's not that I don't think the amount of BExp given is way too high, rather that giving that much BExp to any unit will usually achieve similar results. I can BExp Astrid, Makalov or Tormod up to level 16/0 once I get them and they will do the same thing that Mia did in your example, that is kill. Well, maybe not Astrid until she promotes but I threw her in there because she comes underleveled. My point is, you are using emotional reasoning in that case to say "Mia is awesome". It proves that Mia is good if you give her that much BExp but it doesn't prove that she is better than any other unit.

Um, you don't seem to get it. She's getting a reasonable amount. You are trying to give them way more than Mia gets. Plus, learn economics. The more scarce a resource is, the higher the cost of getting it. Bexp is not scarce. Also, diminishing marginal returns. You get Boyd to level 10, you don't pump him up with even more bexp just because. There isn't a point. You distribute your bexp to optimize the team's performance. And where did we say Mia is awesome? I remember Int repeatedly saying Boyd is awesome, but he never once put her on the level of those guys. You give her just as much bexp as you'd give everybody else. Possibly more if they don't need much to achieve optimal performance, possibly less later on if she doesn't need it as much. And this list probably does assume Astrid or Mak are getting bexp. Except you know what? Int had more than enough for them. Did you happen to notice that at chapter 18 he could take Neph to 20/1 from base level? You should be giving bexp out to everyone. Mia happens to be part of "everyone".

I think you are having a similar issue to smash: Lack of understanding of opportunity cost. There is really no other explanation for equating giving Mia some bexp in chapter 8 to giving that much bexp to those other units.

#5 - How about we change that to "Zihark is pointless if you have Mia in play" and vice-versa? Why would you ever use them both in the same team?

So what's the problem?

Not only that but the excuse "If you give Wrath to Zihark, then Mia doesn't have Wrath and can't reach her potential" is dumb. That's like saying that Karel should be lower on the FE7 tier list because he stops you from getting Harken and the Brave Sword. It's a cop out excuse, in my opinion.

I don't see an issue with giving Zihark wrath because of Mia's existence. My issue there is that people are trying to use inferior options as excuses to deny Mia wrath. If Mia isn't in play then there is no reason to worry about her missing out. If they happen to be on the same team, then performance optimization suggests that she gets it. Giving it to Zihark in that situation is retarded.

That's the big problems that I've found with someof those posts. I can examine it in depth if you want but I wait here and ask you to prove why Mia is better than Soren. I've already brought my case to the table.

Um, yay, except your figures were reliant on leaving both characters underleveled because of the nobody gets bexp because someone else can have it crap. So I'd suggest redoing your figures.

Also, unless Soren starts ORKOing everything really early, I don't see why she couldn't be higher since she has more durability and thus more enemy phase exposure. And there should still be a fair amount of stuff she doubles and he doesn't.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

This tier list is not based on fixed mode, it's random (I'm 85% sure anyway). Whether a stat rounds up or down is based on chance. They do not automatically round down.

Every calculation rounds down. It doesn't matter if it's fixed mode or random, you still round down. You round down with Hit %s and Avo and Crit and everything else, why wouldn't stats round down?

If that's how it is, that's just how it is. You can't deny a unit something that's basically free just because it makes that unit awesome. As long as the price is low, which it is with BEXP. This is basic Economics here: Opportunity Cost and Dimishing Marginal Returns. If needed, someone can get into an Economics lesson, we've had plenty in these forums.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

If I pump BExp into Mia, she gets good. If I pump BExp into Soren, he gets good. If I pump BExp into anyone, they get good. It's free for everyone. That cancels out your entire "Opportunity Cost" argument. It's free for everyone but why is Mia the only one who deserves it? Because she gets good if you give her BExp? Hell, EVERYONE gets better with BExp.

In my mind, it's more fair if you share out BExp to everyone on an equal basis and then evaluate who needs more than who. Mia needs maybe a level max from the first time she gets BExp. Believe me, I just finished Chapter 8 of Hard right now for the hell of it. I gave her no BExp and she still held the West passage pretty easily at level 8 (she gained 2 levels the chapter before). This isn't personal experiance, it's Mia can do it no matter what the case. I don't use Mia usually, mind you.

I had an argument on GF a little while back which consists of Mist requiring 3.6x her regular share of BExp, which then constitutes as babying. To me, babying is having to give ANY extra attention to a unit so that they may grow like the rest of the team. Giving a unit skills, special weapons or stat boosters (unless it's more than 1) doesn't fall under this catagory because they don't actually affect the Exp gain (Paragon isn't acquirable in the game). However, giving more than the usual amount of BExp to a character does, along with weakening enemies so that said character can get the kill does. And the requirement of babying therefore drops the units value on the tier list because they "can't hold their own weight without help".

What's the problem with it? They don't cancel each other out. Ilyana aside, they support different people. They can both be used.

Why would you? Two mono-sword users who are in the upper-mid tiers should be fielded over units in higher tiers? The only time that I can think of when this would happen is a themed run.

Now that you've mentioned supports... Mia gets 2 meh supports (both Rhys and Largo are overshadowed by others), one of them being late in the game, and Ilyana. But Largo is her prefered support as it is her only support that gives her Avo to cover her frail defenses. But c'mon, are you actually going to USE Largo? As for Zihark, he's also got meh supports but his Muarim support is actually really good because it offers a ton of Avo and some Def. Not to mention that Zihark has an A with Muarim before Mia even meets Largo!

I'd like to say that Mia vs. Zihark comes down to preferences, rather than proof. Mia gets Vantage which gives her a strong (but not definitive) case for getting Wrath. Zihark gets Adept which is nice and also wants a shot at Wrath (as I've said before, it's not a counter to say that giving Adept to Zihark stops Mia from being a killing machine) because Adept adds to his chances of activating Wrath (better defenses means more of a chance to survive at 1/2 HP). Mia gets a much better chance at wielding the Sonic Sword than Zihark but Zihark maxes Str, Skl and Spd, meaning that Adept activates almost every third hit. The only things stat-wise Mia has on him are lolMag, Luck and Res. Really, it's too close to call just for me to debate it with myself so I'd need to pick a side, have someone else pick the other side and debate it properly. But it's kinda hard for me to accept Mia > Zihark even though I can sit with it for now.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Life Admiral

[dondon151]

Every calculation rounds down. It doesn't matter if it's fixed mode or random, you still round down. You round down with Hit %s and Avo and Crit and everything else, why wouldn't stats round down?

Those are rounded down because the game rounds down decimals that result from calculations. Stat growths do not result in non-integer stats. It is illogical to always round down figures determined by probability.

If FE10 Kurthnaga leveled up once, would you still round his HP down even though 19 times out of 20 it will round up? What about in the game when support bonuses are rounded up but hit and crit from luk and skl are rounded down?

If I pump BExp into Mia, she gets good. If I pump BExp into Soren, he gets good. If I pump BExp into anyone, they get good. It's free for everyone. That cancels out your entire "Opportunity Cost" argument. It's free for everyone but why is Mia the only one who deserves it? Because she gets good if you give her BExp? Hell, EVERYONE gets better with BExp.

In my mind, it's more fair if you share out BExp to everyone on an equal basis and then evaluate who needs more than who. Mia needs maybe a level max from the first time she gets BExp. Believe me, I just finished Chapter 8 of Hard right now for the hell of it. I gave her no BExp and she still held the West passage pretty easily at level 8 (she gained 2 levels the chapter before). This isn't personal experiance, it's Mia can do it no matter what the case. I don't use Mia usually, mind you.

Look, BEXP exists in the game. You can debate fantasy FE9 where you can pretend that BEXP isn't there or you can debate real FE9 where the game gives you so much BEXP that divvying it up among mediocre characters is a trivial matter.

Edited October 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Life]

Since my last post covered all the other points, I'm just addressing this one comment. Also, I don't play FE10 and I don't see why FE10 should have an impression on the FE9 tier list. If anything, it should be the other way round, with the FE10 tier list being affected by the FE9 list.

Um, yay, except your figures were reliant on leaving both characters underleveled because of the nobody gets bexp because someone else can have it crap. So I'd suggest redoing your figures.

Also, unless Soren starts ORKOing everything really early, I don't see why she couldn't be higher since she has more durability and thus more enemy phase exposure. And there should still be a fair amount of stuff she doubles and he doesn't.

Please tell me you're joking. My figures come from BEFORE Chapter 8. Guess what? You don't get BExp BEFORE Chapter 8! There's NO BExp on the table for either of them at that point!

I can continue on past Chapter 7 and show you how I distribute BExp (amount of BExp divided by characters in army = total BExp each person deserves) and how it doesn't affect the case at hand if you really want.

Also, Soren has much more of a chance of ORKOing because he has Adept. He also attacks enemies that most have shitty Res while Mia is stuck to Def and terrible swords. Soren can and probably will start ORKOing before Mia based on these two factors unless you forge a weapon for Mia which means that Soren deserves his own forge. But once they both ORKO enemies, the point becomes moot because as I've said "Soren > Mia because Soren Earlygame > Mia Earlygame and Soren Mid and Endgame = Mia Mid and Endgame".

You have to read between the lines. I debate things based on equality. I give everyone an equal chance at anything and if Unit A can't produce better than Unit B with as few experimental errors as possible, then obviously Unit B > Unit A. It's the scientific approach.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Life Admiral

[Florete]

Every calculation rounds down. It doesn't matter if it's fixed mode or random, you still round down. You round down with Hit %s and Avo and Crit and everything else, why wouldn't stats round down?

This is so horribly wrong. Growths are a percentage chance, not an ingame figure like supports. Take Volug's HP in RD, 95% growth. Are you really going to tell me that because his level 16 average displays 49.95 HP that he'll have 49 despite the fact that only happens 5% of the time? 19/20 times he'll have 50 after leveling, but by your logic he'll have 49. That makes no sense.

Also, unless they have growths >= 100%, units will always be at base stats after their first level. Sound right to you?

If I pump BExp into Mia, she gets good. If I pump BExp into Soren, he gets good. If I pump BExp into anyone, they get good. It's free for everyone. That cancels out your entire "Opportunity Cost" argument. It's free for everyone but why is Mia the only one who deserves it? Because she gets good if you give her BExp? Hell, EVERYONE gets better with BExp.

Eh? Who said we weren't allowing other units BEXP? How are you canceling anything out?

In my mind, it's more fair if you share out BExp to everyone on an equal basis and then evaluate who needs more than who. Mia needs maybe a level max from the first time she gets BExp. Believe me, I just finished Chapter 8 of Hard right now for the hell of it. I gave her no BExp and she still held the West passage pretty easily at level 8 (she gained 2 levels the chapter before). This isn't personal experiance, it's Mia can do it no matter what the case. I don't use Mia usually, mind you.

So what are you trying to argue? Mia's performance was fine without even getting BEXP, why do you think she should be lower?

Why would you? Two mono-sword users who are in the upper-mid tiers should be fielded over units in higher tiers? The only time that I can think of when this would happen is a themed run.

What's the problem? If I want to use both of them, nothing is stopping me. Both are Upper Mid, that means both are pretty good on the field. We're not always using the top 10 units in the game. Should we also not use all the Paladins because we don't need so many horseback units? Should we not use Marcia and Tanith because both are Pegasi?

Now that you've mentioned supports... Mia gets 2 meh supports (both Rhys and Largo are overshadowed by others), one of them being late in the game, and Ilyana. But Largo is her prefered support as it is her only support that gives her Avo to cover her frail defenses. But c'mon, are you actually going to USE Largo? As for Zihark, he's also got meh supports but his Muarim support is actually really good because it offers a ton of Avo and some Def. Not to mention that Zihark has an A with Muarim before Mia even meets Largo!

Yeah, so? No one is arguing Mia > Zihark here.

Mia gets Vantage which gives her a strong (but not definitive) case for getting Wrath. Zihark gets Adept which is nice and also wants a shot at Wrath (as I've said before, it's not a counter to say that giving Adept to Zihark stops Mia from being a killing machine) because Adept adds to his chances of activating Wrath (better defenses means more of a chance to survive at 1/2 HP).

Wait, what? Wrath is always active as long as you have the required loss of HP. Adept does nothing for it.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Since my last post covered all the other points, I'm just addressing this one comment. Also, I don't play FE10 and I don't see why FE10 should have an impression on the FE9 tier list. If anything, it should be the other way round, with the FE10 tier list being affected by the FE9 list.

You mean, you don't see the possible inconsistencies in your logic?

You have to read between the lines. I debate things based on equality. I give everyone an equal chance at anything and if Unit A can't produce better than Unit B with as few experimental errors as possible, then obviously Unit B > Unit A. It's the scientific approach.

You have to understand that not everyone uses the same resource as well as everyone else. That is, like the first thing you learn in any introductory level economics class.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since my last post covered all the other points, I'm just addressing this one comment. Also, I don't play FE10 and I don't see why FE10 should have an impression on the FE9 tier list. If anything, it should be the other way round, with the FE10 tier list being affected by the FE9 list.

How on earth did you "cover" the whole Mia getting 6AS at level 10 with the armourslayer thing?

And aside from using growths of units in FE10 what did I say had anything to do with RD affecting PoR? The probability of what a 40% growth will do doesn't change one bit from RD to PoR, and the only thing I took from RD was not from the game itself but someone's calculations based on the growth rates of units in RD. Guess what, the same numbers apply to those growth rates in any game.

This tier list is not based on fixed mode, it's random (I'm 85% sure anyway). Whether a stat rounds up or down is based on chance. They do not automatically round down.

Every calculation rounds down. It doesn't matter if it's fixed mode or random, you still round down. You round down with Hit %s and Avo and Crit and everything else, why wouldn't stats round down?

Probability disagrees with you, sorry. She's almost as likely to have 7AS with the armourslayer at level 10 as Ike is to have 9 str at level 9, despite him pulling off your glorified whole number. So basically it's a case of denying reality to give her 6AS but let Ike have 9 str at level 9. And as I said, in fixed mode she pulls it off anyway thanks to starting growth points.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

That's great, if it wasn't for the fact you don't understand us. Everyone is getting bexp, not just Mia. She's maybe getting a little more in chapter 8, but that's just a result of guys like Boyd and Oscar only needing enough to start ORKOing armours (Boyd) or doubling (Oscar). Once they reach that point, it's kinda not necessary to give more.

If I pump BExp into Mia, she gets good. If I pump BExp into Soren, he gets good. If I pump BExp into anyone, they get good. It's free for everyone. That cancels out your entire "Opportunity Cost" argument. It's free for everyone but why is Mia the only one who deserves it? Because she gets good if you give her BExp? Hell, EVERYONE gets better with BExp.

There are reasonable amounts of bexp and unreasonable amounts. If you can give Mia 3 to 400 without hurting the team, that's entirely different from giving out 600 or 700 to someone. Soren would need a lot more than Mia to hit level 10 at that point, for example, since he probably isn't getting much cexp before chapter 8.

In my mind, it's more fair if you share out BExp to everyone on an equal basis and then evaluate who needs more than who. Mia needs maybe a level max from the first time she gets BExp. Believe me, I just finished Chapter 8 of Hard right now for the hell of it. I gave her no BExp and she still held the West passage pretty easily at level 8 (she gained 2 levels the chapter before). This isn't personal experiance, it's Mia can do it no matter what the case. I don't use Mia usually, mind you.

So there isn't a problem, then. Although, it is reconmmended to make her able to 2RKO armours with the armourslayer. 3HKOing is preferable, since it allows her to KO on player phase without a guaranteed counter.

I had an argument on GF a little while back which consists of Mist requiring 3.6x her regular share of BExp, which then constitutes as babying. To me, babying is having to give ANY extra attention to a unit so that they may grow like the rest of the team. Giving a unit skills, special weapons or stat boosters (unless it's more than 1) doesn't fall under this catagory because they don't actually affect the Exp gain (Paragon isn't acquirable in the game). However, giving more than the usual amount of BExp to a character does, along with weakening enemies so that said character can get the kill does. And the requirement of babying therefore drops the units value on the tier list because they "can't hold their own weight without help".

And yet Mia doesn't need that much, so it isn't a problem.

Why would you? Two mono-sword users who are in the upper-mid tiers should be fielded over units in higher tiers? The only time that I can think of when this would happen is a themed run.

The tier list shouldn't force any team formations. The only stipulation should be:

if unit A is being ranked and unit A builds more utility from being fielded than not being fielded, unit A gets deployed.

Beyond that, nothing need be assumed. Some tier lists assume that the higher ranks are more likely to be played, and that's fine, but it's not required.

Now that you've mentioned supports... Mia gets 2 meh supports (both Rhys and Largo are overshadowed by others), one of them being late in the game, and Ilyana. But Largo is her prefered support as it is her only support that gives her Avo to cover her frail defenses. But c'mon, are you actually going to USE Largo? As for Zihark, he's also got meh supports but his Muarim support is actually really good because it offers a ton of Avo and some Def. Not to mention that Zihark has an A with Muarim before Mia even meets Largo!

I'd like to say that Mia vs. Zihark comes down to preferences, rather than proof. Mia gets Vantage which gives her a strong (but not definitive) case for getting Wrath. Zihark gets Adept which is nice and also wants a shot at Wrath (as I've said before, it's not a counter to say that giving Adept to Zihark stops Mia from being a killing machine) because Adept adds to his chances of activating Wrath (better defenses means more of a chance to survive at 1/2 HP). Mia gets a much better chance at wielding the Sonic Sword than Zihark but Zihark maxes Str, Skl and Spd, meaning that Adept activates almost every third hit. The only things stat-wise Mia has on him are lolMag, Luck and Res. Really, it's too close to call just for me to debate it with myself so I'd need to pick a side, have someone else pick the other side and debate it properly. But it's kinda hard for me to accept Mia > Zihark even though I can sit with it for now.

Why should she wait?

Mia gets an AB Rhys/Ilyana by chapter 20.

+4 mt, +1 def, +25 hit.

The hit is just helpful for low hit weapons like silver blade, but we get +1mt and +1 def for many many chapters more than if she waits for Largo. If he showed up around chapter 15 or something it might be worth waiting, but he doesn't. +1 def will frequently pump up the #HKOds a unit faces. Not from every enemy, obviously, but frequently a few enemies each map, and reduce the number of combinations, like a 27 mt enemy + 30 mt enemy that used to combine to 3HKO now 4HKO, or something.

(just in case the Ilyana option is in danger of being denied: And Z actually gets more out of Brom + Muarim than Brom + Ilyana. Well, arguably. So it's not like Ilyana is locked away or anything. Mordy may or may not be in use, or the plan could be to only use him until Muarim shows up, or something. Regardless, Ilyana could very well support Mia even if she supports Zihark. Also, you seem to be against the idea of Zihark and Mia coexisting, so there is even less to prevent Ilyana x Mia.)

Oh, and if you were talking about chapter 7, so? She doesn't need to do much there. Check what Int said she was doing.

Besides:

Her rocky start only deteriorates. Chapter 8 has Cavs to the south, Knights to the east and Soldiers + Archers to the west. I wonder which exit she's defending

Look, you talk about her in chapter 7, that's fine. No bexp. In fact, even if there was it wouldn't help Mia what with being recruited during the chapter. But it's not like you mentioned that she now does better. No, you say it deteriorates. As soon as chapter 8's bexp shows up, Mia and others like her get instant boosts to their prowess because bexp exists and it would be foolish not to use it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The only really significant combo I see involving Adept would be Vantage... which is beaten by Wrath + Vantage.

Going into battle with W+A combo would be gambling on the player phase. If the enemy can kill on the counter-attack, this combo HAS to activate and it's still a gamble on the freaking player phase... why not heal before attacking?

If the enemy does not kill on the counter-attack then Wrath is kinda superfluous.

V+A means a possible 2 strikes before the enemy attacks. If Zihark 2HKOs, this is good.

W+A means a possible critical before the enemy attacks. Activation as well as damage.

You have to understand that not everyone uses the same resource as well as everyone else. That is, like the first thing you learn in any introductory level economics class.

Then there's demand, some units don't care about a certain scroll, stat up or BEXP.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Vergil

[Life]

I'll give you the stat leveling thing for right now. But the only reason why is because that first level that characters "don't get stats" is actually made up for later in the game during their leveling. They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat.

Eh? Who said we weren't allowing other units BEXP? How are you canceling anything out?

You're STILL missing the point.

Why is Mia the person to gain that absurd amount of BExp? Because she gets good? Because she needs it? She needs it as much as Soren needs it, who needs maybe a level. So why so much BExp when it can be saved for the future?

So what are you trying to argue? Mia's performance was fine without even getting BEXP, why do you think she should be lower?

I don't. I think Soren should be higher. How have you not understood that?

What's the problem? If I want to use both of them, nothing is stopping me. Both are Upper Mid, that means both are pretty good on the field. We're not always using the top 10 units in the game. Should we also not use all the Paladins because we don't need so many horseback units? Should we not use Marcia and Tanith because both are Pegasi?

I'm really not liking your logic because it makes you look stupid. If you can field the best 10 units in the game, WHY WOULDN'T YOU? Why take someone who is BARELY above mediocre instead of someone who is much better than her? For a challenge?

Wait, what? Wrath is always active as long as you have the required loss of HP. Adept does nothing for it.

Wait, what? Wrath doubles crit rate but doesn't actually do anything... Maybe the more shots a unit does on an enemy means the more chances to crit... Naw, sounds way too obvious to be true!

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, one more thing.

3 of the 5 knights in chapter 7 have 0 AS.

Also, 2 of 3 when Gatrie and Shinon appear.

So, 5 of 8 of them are doubled by 14 AS.

She has a 40% str growth and a 60% spd growth.

So based on probability, the chance of her not procing str is 60% and the probability of her not procing spd is 40%.

If she procs even one she's golden.

So, for 3 AS with the armourslayer she needs to pull off the probability of neither.

.4 x .6 = .24

So she has a 76% chance in one level of pulling off 4 AS.

Remember, at level 9 Ike has just a 64% chance of having 9 str despite having a 9.00 on average.

It is unbelievably inconsistent to constantly assume that Ike would have 9 str at level 9 but deny Mia 4 AS at level 7. Her chance of 4 AS is higher than Ike's chance of 9 str at level 9. By a lot.

Oh, and remember, 70 base growth points in fixed mode. She could equip an iron weapon and attack a mage and still pull off 8 str at level 7. And hence 4 AS with an armourslayer on fixed mode is guaranteed at level 7. So I daresay she's now doing >50% damage to over half the knights in chapter 7.

Now, obviously Soren doubles them and should cause similar amounts of pain, but the point is Mia isn't simply chipping.

I'll give you the stat leveling thing for right now. But the only reason why is because that first level that characters "don't get stats" is actually made up for later in the game during their leveling. They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat.

Something tells me you've never taken a probability course.

Eh? Who said we weren't allowing other units BEXP? How are you canceling anything out?

You're STILL missing the point.

Why is Mia the person to gain that absurd amount of BExp? Because she gets good? Because she needs it? She needs it as much as Soren needs it, who needs maybe a level. So why so much BExp when it can be saved for the future?

The fact that you can even type that paragraph clearly displays that you are missing the point. Or at least, you are missing our point. Your point is that we are doing something we aren't doing and thus you don't think we should do this thing we aren't doing anyway. This, by the way, is another page from Smash's "How to debate" book. Namely, claim the opposition is doing something they aren't and then show why the thing they aren't doing is a bad idea and hope nobody realizes that you've countered something nobody was doing in the first place.

So what are you trying to argue? Mia's performance was fine without even getting BEXP, why do you think she should be lower?

I don't. I think Soren should be higher. How have you not understood that?

So you've chosen Mia instead of Lethe or Stefan to argue about? Let me ask you this: Do you think Mia > Lethe and Stefan? Because what you've typed so far suggests you don't. If I'm inferring the wrong thing here, let me know.

What's the problem? If I want to use both of them, nothing is stopping me. Both are Upper Mid, that means both are pretty good on the field. We're not always using the top 10 units in the game. Should we also not use all the Paladins because we don't need so many horseback units? Should we not use Marcia and Tanith because both are Pegasi?

I'm really not liking your logic because it makes you look stupid. If you can field the best 10 units in the game, WHY WOULDN'T YOU? Why take someone who is BARELY above mediocre instead of someone who is much better than her? For a challenge?

So, aside from the top 10 units, how do you suggest we tier the rest of the cast, oh wise one? Make a tier titled "the rest" and stick everyone in it and say they are all equal?

Wait, what? Wrath is always active as long as you have the required loss of HP. Adept does nothing for it.

Wait, what? Wrath doubles crit rate but doesn't actually do anything... Maybe the more shots a unit does on an enemy means the more chances to crit... Naw, sounds way too obvious to be true!

Wrath gives +50 crit. Swordmaster gives +15. Her skl gives at least 9 by that point. That's already 74 crit. Most enemies have <10 luck. Throw on a killing edge and that's already >94% crit. Vague Katti tends to go over 100%. Way way better than vantage + adept.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat.

Actually, in fixed mode, units have base growth points, so first levels often do give +1's.

You're STILL missing the point.

Why is Mia the person to gain that absurd amount of BExp? Because she gets good? Because she needs it? She needs it as much as Soren needs it, who needs maybe a level. So why so much BExp when it can be saved for the future?

1. It's not an absurd amount.

2. What am I missing? You're complaining that it's going to her and not someone else when I'm telling you it's going to everyone being used! We don't need to save so much because we get more.

I'm really not liking your logic because it makes you look stupid. If you can field the best 10 units in the game, WHY WOULDN'T YOU? Why take someone who is BARELY above mediocre instead of someone who is much better than her? For a challenge?

Are you just trolling me? The player is God. I can choose who to use. Sometimes only picking the top units doesn't always work for a number of reasons:

1. Supports don't match up. Some units are higher for supports they have with a unit worse than them.

2. Stat screwage. Good characters can still get screwed. In that case, I want someone else.

Nothing is preventing you from fielding both Mia and Zihark. I don't think I've ever done it, but I could if I wanted to. What's the problem here?

Wait, what? Wrath doubles crit rate but doesn't actually do anything... Maybe the more shots a unit does on an enemy means the more chances to crit... Naw, sounds way too obvious to be true!

You said, and I quote:

Adept adds to his chances of activating Wrath

That's wrong. Wrath will trigger regardless of anything else as long as the unit is below 50% HP. Whether a critical triggers or not is a different story. That looks like what you meant, but I am not a mind reader, sorry.

By the way, Wrath does not double crit rate, it increases it by 50%. So 25% base crit would become 75%.

[Narga_Rocks]

They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat.

Actually, in fixed mode, units have base growth points, so first levels often do give +1's.

Yep. In fixed mode, Mia, for example, will get hp and str every single time she goes from level 6(base) to level 7 no matter what you do. With 60 starting points in hp and 70 starting points in str, and a 50% hp growth and a 40% str growth. Considering the biggest penalty possible in fixed mode is -5% from the equipped weapon and -5% from the enemy you attack when you level, that's minimum 40 points of hp and 30 points of str. Making 100 points of each, aka a point during level up. It is, quite literally, impossible to not get hp and str on Mia's first level in fixed mode. It's actually quite cool. It happens for a few others as well, like Soren and his magic. You can pull off skill, but she falls 5 points short so you'd need to equip an iron weapon and fight something that doesn't penalize skl, or do some other thing where you get an extra +5 to skill and no minuses.

Regardless, she will have 4 AS with an armourslayer on fixed mode at level 7. Period.

references:

starting growth points

enemy class modifications

equipped weapon modifications (and bands and KW)

And arguing with someone about numbers when they don't seem to get the way probability works is not fun. I remember "discussions" with slaveblade on gamefaqs that were similar to this. And various other people on gamefaqs that don't grasp probability. Some of them do. Like dragontamer knew way more than me. Or it always seemed like it. But dragontamer hasn't been around in recent history.

Oh, here is a fun one from RD. Remember, this isn't about RD, it's about statistics. It could be anyone that has 44 levels to grow, a 45% growth, and needs 19 points to cap. If you go purely off of base + promo bonuses + (levels to go x growth), at 20/20/18 she has 34.9, so you'd think 35 str would be pretty secure for 20/20/19. It is, after all, 35.35 with a cap of 35.

Except, she's only got a ~60% chance of capping str at 20/20/19. Less than level 10 Mia's chance of pulling 7 AS. In fact, at level 20/20/20, when she'd have 35.8, a fair amount above her cap, she still only has a ~65% chance of capping. A little more than Mia's chance at 7AS, sure, but not by much. Which basically means to say that Mia has 6 AS at level 10 with an armourslayer while assuming other units have their average (floored) at whatever point you want to look is rather inconsistent and implies a complete and total lack of understanding of probability and statistics in all their forms.

Also, my original point with the 7 AS thing was that the majority of the time she has at least 7 AS, so 6 AS should be pretty secure, even at level 9. Note the key word I'm about to bold that was in my original post:

Level 10 Mia has 8.6/15.4

Armorslayer has 17 wt.

Ike has 6 speed, Mia has (15.4 - (17 - 8.6) = 7, so probably) 7.

Hence, I wasn't saying she has it guaranteed, although given what the numbers state I probably should if we assume stuff like it elsewhere. I was just saying that she is likely to have 7. It happens to be the most common occurrence at level 10. 6 or 8 being the next most likely, I'm sure.

And if you wonder why some of us may appear to be a little hostile right now:

#32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations.

Yeah, that sets a nice tone. "I expect you guys to know that", or "Your information is wrong". And various things like that in your other posts. Although in this case its made sad by how wrong the statement was. Actually, arrogance while being wrong I think makes people annoyed more than arrogance while being right. Not sure how others feel about arrogance, though.

In this case, I think this may be called for. At least, considering how long this discussion went, and the grudging "acceptance" paragraph that was tainted by a clear indication of non-acceptance.

Not only that but the excuse "If you give Wrath to Zihark, then Mia doesn't have Wrath and can't reach her potential" is dumb. That's like saying that Karel should be lower on the FE7 tier list because he stops you from getting Harken and the Brave Sword. It's a cop out excuse, in my opinion.

I still don't see the relation, and you haven't adequately defended that statement yet either. If they are existing in parallel universes where only one is in play, sure, he's not taking it from her. He's still taking it from everyone else in his team, and needs to be compared as such, just like Mia is compared to all the potential users of wrath in her team. If they are in the same universe, they are comparing directly, as well as to everyone else. So depending on our view of how often they are played together, Zihark taking it from Mia is either a strong point against him getting it or a weak point against him getting it.

And I'm still wondering how her durability advantage allowing her to face more enemies than Soren doesn't mean anything to you.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

I'll give you the stat leveling thing for right now. But the only reason why is because that first level that characters "don't get stats" is actually made up for later in the game during their leveling. They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat.

False dichotomy. Just because we don't think that all averages should be rounded down doesn't mean that we think that all averages should be rounded up. Even IS realized that units with non-perfect growth rates should gain stat points on their first level up (and most units on average gain 2-4) and accordingly accomodated for this with base growth points in fixed mode.

[Dat Nick]

Um, this aside.

Offensively Mia might be fine earlygame. Defense is another story. 22 HP/7 def is pretty bad [A lot of stuff is gonna two shot her and armorslayer nukes her avo] Soren has viable 1-2 range so his crap defense is easier to work around, and since he's now doubling, he's about the same offensively. Then on promotion Soren gets staves, but Mia also has Wrath to work with, so I think this one can go either way, really.