FE9 Tier list v3

[Zkirsche]

Mordecai > Zihark?

First off, Mordy has better concrete durability... forever. And that's no exaggeration. It takes Zihark to reach level 20/11 to match base Mordy's def with a demi band and level 20/13 for Zihark to reach his base HP. Does this matter? Well, it certainly does before Zihark gets his supports up and running. I mean, take chapter 16. With 1.2 levels per chapter and 2 extra levels in bexp, this brings him to level 18/0. Leaving him with 29.6 HP, 53 Avo, 9.6 Def and 1.6 Res, assuming 4 HP and 4 Def band usages. So that means that physical enemies with ~19-23 Atk 3RKO him (15 enemies) and that mages need 17 Atk to 2RKO him, which is an extra 3 enemies, and that all mages at least 3RKO him. So that's 21/38 enemies that 3+RKO Zihark, including the knight who 3RKO's thanks to WTA. And guess what? Zihark faces actual hit rates from these enemies. The only two enemies that have <40 displayed on Zihark are the two fighters. God help him if biorhythm goes against him. Mordecai? A grand total of 2 enemies 3RKO Base Mordy, both are mages. If Mordy gets 2 strength procs in ~3 levels or so, a 'B' Mist lets him OHKO these mages so they're even less of a problem (This is all assuming Demi band. Without it, Mordy OHKO's these guys easy with just a 'C' Mist). Mordy doesn't even need to dodge these guys, but Zihark will need constant healer attention if he wants decent enemy phase exposure, and with Makalov also being underlevelled by this point, it doesn't help the team much.

Of course, then Mordecai has superier mobility. Even after he's promoted, Zihark is struggling to keep up with the paladins and fliers that make up high efficiency teams in FE9. He falls 2 squares back each turn if they all go charging 100% with thier move (and why wouldn't they?), which means he can be up to 6 squares behind the rest of the gang after just 3 turns. He is easily left behind and in those later stages, when his durability is high enougth to take it, there just won't be any enemies left to give him an enemy phase, or at least a decent sized one. Mordy can always keep up thanks to his nice and big 9 mov.

But of course, Zihark's player phase is enougth right? Well, how is it? He 2RKO's - like Mordy - from the word go, except Mordy can ORKO 12 more units consistently because he can actually double them/neither double, but Mordy can OHKO them anyway. 3 of these are pesky knights, who only, like, Boyd/Titania can ORKO thanks to the hammer. This is excluding the wyverns that arrive with Jill, the mages/priests and the vigilantes near Zihark, so that's 12/27 enemies Mordy ORKO's. And if we gave him a little bit of bexp, Mordy has a 50% chance of getting 12 AS once transformed, which means he can double, and thus ORKO, an extra 4 enemies, all of them being cavaliers who also happen to have decent durability. So Mordy can consistently ORKO the toughest enemies on the map while Zihark consistently... ORKO's joke enemies like priests and mages. Crit? Well, both Mia and Ike can use that killing edge, and all three of them should have similar Skl stats by that point, but I believe Mia and Ike have better Atk values than Zihark so it's not like there isn't competition for the killing edge and without it, Zihark has 6 Crit, just like Mordy.

If I were to skip ahead to chapter 13, giving Mordy a level in the meanwhile, as well as Zihark 3, you'll notice that once again, Mordy has Zihark beat in the sheer attack department. Aside from Joke enemies, Zihark doesn't ORKO. But a Mordy with 12 AS ORKO's 16 enemies on the map thanks to doubling and an extra 4 myrmidons thanks to their low HP/Def total and Mordy's high Atk (Note: this is with even base Atk). I think this is very impressive, and should certainly give him an edge over Zihark, moreso when added to his mobility and durability leads.

In chapter 15, Zihark will move like a slug whilst Mordy can just rush ahead thanks to being a laguz. I know I already covered mobility above, but this seems to be a more extreme case.

In chapter 16, Mordy has 33 Atk + ~13 AS with the Demi band + 'B' Ilyana, 'B' Mist. Whilst Zihark has 23 Atk + 19 AS. Mordy ORKO's 17 enemies right off the bat thanks to doubling and an extra 13 from his Atk alone. So that's 30/38 enemies a level 7 Mordy can ORKO. A level 18/0 Zihark ORKO's 22/38 enemies.

Now that you understand where he is early-mid game, now let's move on to lategame, in chapter 26. A level 15 Mordy with the Demi Band and a speedwing, 'A' Mist, 'B' Ilyana has ~40 Atk and 18 AS. While a level 20/13 Zihark with a silver sword and 'A' Muarim, 'B' Brom has 35 Atk and 29 AS. Okay, Zihark wins now, when comparing performance against an enemy. But over the entire chapter Mordy will see more enemy exposure than Zihark, which should even it out a bit.

But, why the speedwing? Simple, Mordy is very good with it. In chapter 26, for example, Mordy gains the ability to double 12 more enemies in that one chapter alone. I struggle to think of a unit in upper mid or higher who has serious doubling problems lategame aside from Brom, who has the KW to help.

But of course, Mordy has a transformation gauge and the nuisances that come with it. However, this means that Mordy loses a few turns a chapter untransformed and tehse can be offset somewhat. With Mordy in range, units like Soren, Ilyana and, guess what, Zihark (Units with low durability) can stand around on the front lines freely, safe knowing that enemies will be flocking to Mordy like sheep. So even untransformed, Mordy can safely grant the team flexibility. And yes, it is quite safe, the highest RKO rate any non-boss unit has in chapter 11, for example, is a 6RKO by the two steel lance knights.

So with superier enemy exposure and being better at fighting them in the first place in the first few chapters both exist, it is clear that Mordy > Zihark IMO.

Thoughts?

[CT075]

Mordecai > Zihark?

First off, Mordy has better concrete durability... forever. And that's no exaggeration. It takes Zihark to reach level 20/11 to match base Mordy's def with a demi band and level 20/13 for Zihark to reach his base HP. Does this matter? Well, it certainly does before Zihark gets his supports up and running. I mean, take chapter 16. With 1.2 levels per chapter and 2 extra levels in bexp, this brings him to level 18/0. Leaving him with 29.6 HP, 53 Avo, 9.6 Def and 1.6 Res, assuming 4 HP and 4 Def band usages. So that means that physical enemies with ~19-23 Atk 3RKO him (15 enemies) and that mages need 17 Atk to 2RKO him, which is an extra 3 enemies, and that all mages at least 3RKO him. So that's 21/38 enemies that 3+RKO Zihark, including the knight who 3RKO's thanks to WTA. And guess what? Zihark faces actual hit rates from these enemies. The only two enemies that have <40 displayed on Zihark are the two fighters. God help him if biorhythm goes against him. Mordecai? A grand total of 2 enemies 3RKO Base Mordy, both are mages. If Mordy gets 2 strength procs in ~3 levels or so, a 'B' Mist lets him OHKO these mages so they're even less of a problem (This is all assuming Demi band. Without it, Mordy OHKO's these guys easy with just a 'C' Mist). Mordy doesn't even need to dodge these guys, but Zihark will need constant healer attention if he wants decent enemy phase exposure, and with Makalov also being underlevelled by this point, it doesn't help the team much.

Of course, then Mordecai has superier mobility. Even after he's promoted, Zihark is struggling to keep up with the paladins and fliers that make up high efficiency teams in FE9. He falls 2 squares back each turn if they all go charging 100% with thier move (and why wouldn't they?), which means he can be up to 6 squares behind the rest of the gang after just 3 turns. He is easily left behind and in those later stages, when his durability is high enougth to take it, there just won't be any enemies left to give him an enemy phase, or at least a decent sized one. Mordy can always keep up thanks to his nice and big 9 mov.

But of course, Zihark's player phase is enougth right? Well, how is it? He 2RKO's - like Mordy - from the word go, except Mordy can ORKO 12 more units consistently because he can actually double them/neither double, but Mordy can OHKO them anyway. 3 of these are pesky knights, who only, like, Boyd/Titania can ORKO thanks to the hammer. This is excluding the wyverns that arrive with Jill, the mages/priests and the vigilantes near Zihark, so that's 12/27 enemies Mordy ORKO's. And if we gave him a little bit of bexp, Mordy has a 50% chance of getting 12 AS once transformed, which means he can double, and thus ORKO, an extra 4 enemies, all of them being cavaliers who also happen to have decent durability. So Mordy can consistently ORKO the toughest enemies on the map while Zihark consistently... ORKO's joke enemies like priests and mages. Crit? Well, both Mia and Ike can use that killing edge, and all three of them should have similar Skl stats by that point, but I believe Mia and Ike have better Atk values than Zihark so it's not like there isn't competition for the killing edge and without it, Zihark has 6 Crit, just like Mordy.

If I were to skip ahead to chapter 13, giving Mordy a level in the meanwhile, as well as Zihark 3, you'll notice that once again, Mordy has Zihark beat in the sheer attack department. Aside from Joke enemies, Zihark doesn't ORKO. But a Mordy with 12 AS ORKO's 16 enemies on the map thanks to doubling and an extra 4 myrmidons thanks to their low HP/Def total and Mordy's high Atk (Note: this is with even base Atk). I think this is very impressive, and should certainly give him an edge over Zihark, moreso when added to his mobility and durability leads.

In chapter 15, Zihark will move like a slug whilst Mordy can just rush ahead thanks to being a laguz. I know I already covered mobility above, but this seems to be a more extreme case.

In chapter 16, Mordy has 33 Atk + ~13 AS with the Demi band + 'B' Ilyana, 'B' Mist. Whilst Zihark has 23 Atk + 19 AS. Mordy ORKO's 17 enemies right off the bat thanks to doubling and an extra 13 from his Atk alone. So that's 30/38 enemies a level 7 Mordy can ORKO. A level 18/0 Zihark ORKO's 22/38 enemies.

Now that you understand where he is early-mid game, now let's move on to lategame, in chapter 26. A level 15 Mordy with the Demi Band and a speedwing, 'A' Mist, 'B' Ilyana has ~40 Atk and 18 AS. While a level 20/13 Zihark with a silver sword and 'A' Muarim, 'B' Brom has 35 Atk and 29 AS. Okay, Zihark wins now, when comparing performance against an enemy. But over the entire chapter Mordy will see more enemy exposure than Zihark, which should even it out a bit.

But, why the speedwing? Simple, Mordy is very good with it. In chapter 26, for example, Mordy gains the ability to double 12 more enemies in that one chapter alone. I struggle to think of a unit in upper mid or higher who has serious doubling problems lategame aside from Brom, who has the KW to help.

But of course, Mordy has a transformation gauge and the nuisances that come with it. However, this means that Mordy loses a few turns a chapter untransformed and tehse can be offset somewhat. With Mordy in range, units like Soren, Ilyana and, guess what, Zihark (Units with low durability) can stand around on the front lines freely, safe knowing that enemies will be flocking to Mordy like sheep. So even untransformed, Mordy can safely grant the team flexibility. And yes, it is quite safe, the highest RKO rate any non-boss unit has in chapter 11, for example, is a 6RKO by the two steel lance knights.

So with superier enemy exposure and being better at fighting them in the first place in the first few chapters both exist, it is clear that Mordy > Zihark IMO.

Thoughts?

One thing that I can think of is that you neglected to mention his competition for the Demi Band, and, if he doesn't have it his gauge. Zihark also has access to the Vague Katti, which is good.

I'm not against it, just bringing some things up.

[-Cynthia-]

Mordy is a good candidate for a Speedwing, but that doesn't entitle him to it. If units that normally double get slightly Spd screwed they'll want it, Jill's good with it, so is Haar, a number of other Middle/Lower Mid get significantly better with it. Zihark beats Mordy in offense lategame when Mordy doesn't have the Wing, and Mordy doesn't have a durability lead by this point.

That being said, most of these arguments seem to make sense, since the gap between Mordy(Lethe as well) and your other units is generally larger than the gap between Mia/Stefan/Zihark and the laguz lategame.

[Zkirsche]

Mordy is a good candidate for a Speedwing, but that doesn't entitle him to it. If units that normally double get slightly Spd screwed they'll want it, Jill's good with it, so is Haar, a number of other Middle/Lower Mid get significantly better with it. Zihark beats Mordy in offense lategame when Mordy doesn't have the Wing, and Mordy doesn't have a durability lead by this point.

I don't know a unit better than him. Haar joins late so doesn't make much use of it (note how there are 2), Taur doesn't double end of, Ranulf's fine. Geoffrey's fine etcetera. And considering the doritos argument, which I'm sure you know well and understand, Mordy being the best with it means he should get one.

He always retains a mobility lead, however.

One thing that I can think of is that you neglected to mention his competition for the Demi Band, and, if he doesn't have it his gauge. Zihark also has access to the Vague Katti, which is good.

I hardly think the demi band is worth such negative utility that it erases mordy's offensive, defensive and mobility leads he has over Zihark for almost the entire game.

Come to think of it, what about Mordy > Brom? Neither double often (though Mordy doubles way more early on), meaning their offence is similar and both are pretty tanky too. Plus, both require frequent use of a band to be good (Brom the KW, Mordy the Demi-band). However, Mordy has a large mobility lead (and by large, I mean large, it takes just 2 turns of everyone sprinting at full mov lategame for Brom to fall behind so far that he uses all of his mov just to reach the front line - which hasn't yet moved. Brom clearly won't be getting much enemy exposure, all he can hope to do is take care of reinforcements that appear behind the front line. Is this really > someone who can ORKO the toguhest enemies early-mid game and still packs quite a punch later? I don't think so.

That being said, most of these arguments seem to make sense, since the gap between Mordy(Lethe as well) and your other units is generally larger than the gap between Mia/Stefan/Zihark and the laguz lategame.

Does that mean you'll be moving Lethe up as well? Or just Mordy?

[Narga_Rocks]

That being said, most of these arguments seem to make sense, since the gap between Mordy(Lethe as well) and your other units is generally larger than the gap between Mia/Stefan/Zihark and the laguz lategame.

Does that mean you'll be moving Lethe up as well? Or just Mordy?

I for one have already said I could see the swordmaster trio in mid (or remaining in upper mid), either above or below Soren if they drop to mid (though there haven't been arguments worthy of placing Soren above any of the three, yet) so while I haven't looked too far into Lethe's performance I don't see why she couldn't go above at least Stefan and Mia, probably Zihark as well if she goes above the first two swordmasters.

[-Cynthia-]

Mordy and Lethe are now above Brom, though I'll be willing to switch back if there are any objections.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Was Kieran > Oscar just kind of accepted at the beginning of this topic?

And does anyone have/remember the first draft of this tier list?

[Zkirsche]

Was Kieran > Oscar just kind of accepted at the beginning of this topic?

I believe it was decided in the previous topic.

And does anyone have/remember the first draft of this tier list?

Something like this, though apparently there were a few changes made:

SUPER TOP

Titania

Top

Oscar

Kieran

Jill

Reyson

High

Boyd

Tanith

Ike

Marcia

Astrid

Makalov

Mist

Upper Mid

Volke

Zihark

Muarim

Stefan

Rhys

Mordecai

Geoffrey

Nephenee

Soren

Lower Mid

Brom

Calill

Ranulf

Ilyana

Haar

Gatrie

Lethe

Tauroneo

Sothe

Low

Devdan

Tormod

Largo

Mia

Janaff

Ulki

Nasir

Shinon

Elincia

Bottom

Ena

Bastian

Lucia

Rolf

I'm almost embarrased as to how bad I was back then.

Edited November 18, 2009 by kirsche

[Anouleth]

I don't understand why Jill>Kieran>Oscar on the tier list (I'd swap Jill and Oscar).

Does anyone mind giving a quick summary of why they're in those positions?

[-Cynthia-]

I don't understand why Jill>Kieran>Oscar on the tier list (I'd swap Jill and Oscar).

Does anyone mind giving a quick summary of why they're in those positions?

Jill flies, which gives her a lot more exposure than Kieran/Oscar in the long term. Kieran can ORKO without forges, something Oscar can't claim.

[Anouleth]

I don't understand why Jill>Kieran>Oscar on the tier list (I'd swap Jill and Oscar).

Does anyone mind giving a quick summary of why they're in those positions?

Jill flies, which gives her a lot more exposure than Kieran/Oscar in the long term. Kieran can ORKO without forges, something Oscar can't claim.

Jill's flight is only a factor in a few chapters, since on many chapters you're either indoors or simply don't care about flight. And for me, Jill always had a shaky start.

And Oscar's earlygame... existence is pretty good. Better than Kieran's minor lead in lategame anyway.

I get the feeling that this is one of those things that comes down to opinion - whether you consider earlygame performance (Oscar), lategame offense (Kieran) or flight (Jill) to be more important.

[Dat Nick]

Jill's flight is only a factor in a few chapters, since on many chapters you're either indoors

This isn't RD. Indoor chapters are a non issue for fliers.

[Anouleth]

Jill's flight is only a factor in a few chapters, since on many chapters you're either indoors

This isn't RD. Indoor chapters are a non issue for fliers.

Oh, I meant that in an indoor map, there's no terrain, so Jill's movement is essentially equal to Oscar's and Kieran's.

I guess the flight is good enough in C15, C17, C20, C23, and C25 that she'd be above Oscar/Kieran.

[VergilDante100]

Volke Below mist, lol, when volke auto promotes in this game he basically becomes a god, given the right weapons, well at least when it comes to me anyways.

[-Cynthia-]

Oh, I meant that in an indoor map, there's no terrain, so Jill's movement is essentially equal to Oscar's and Kieran's.

I guess the flight is good enough in C15, C17, C20, C23, and C25 that she'd be above Oscar/Kieran.

Actually even on some indoor maps there are terrain, like C21 has the giant aqueduct things.

PoR is just generally terrain heavy, hence why fliers in general are as high as they are.

As for Oscar/Kieran, I actually think Oscar ahould be above Kieran (supports+ earlygame > later offense that Oscar can fix anyway), but I'll wait for someone to make a full argument.

[Colonel M]

Volke Below mist, lol, when volke auto promotes in this game he basically becomes a god, given the right weapons, well at least when it comes to me anyways.

Let's not go over that again please. @_@

I still have nightmares from it.

[VergilDante100]

Volke Below mist, lol, when volke auto promotes in this game he basically becomes a god, given the right weapons, well at least when it comes to me anyways.

Let's not go over that again please. @_@

I still have nightmares from it.

Sorry but i wanted to make sure people remember how godly volke is from 10, espically the fact you get to use him more in this one.

[Anouleth]

Volke Below mist, lol, when volke auto promotes in this game he basically becomes a god, given the right weapons, well at least when it comes to me anyways.

Let's not go over that again please. @_@

I still have nightmares from it.

Sorry but i wanted to make sure people remember how godly volke is from 10, espically the fact you get to use him more in this one.

Volke is pretty average in 10. He's like a Swordmaster... only worse at everything.

[Maou]

Volke Below mist, lol, when volke auto promotes in this game he basically becomes a god, given the right weapons, well at least when it comes to me anyways.

The hell? Volke sucks at combat in this game.

[Allan's Aokage]

-Edit- pfft, wrong tier list.

Volke doesn't do anything that nobody else can't do better. No, wait. That doesn't make sense. What I mean is; everyone else does more for longer then Volke; he'll be promoting a little later, while everyone else is running around 2RKOing enemies, while Volke needs to rely on his Occult skill to OHKO reliably, since knives aren't strong enough to do enough damage to Generals.

Unless I'm mixing this up with another game.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Allan's Aokage

[Shadow Mir]

-Edit- pfft, wrong tier list.

Volke doesn't do anything that nobody else can't do better. No, wait. That doesn't make sense. What I mean is; everyone else does more for longer then Volke; he'll be promoting a little later, while everyone else is running around 2RKOing enemies, while Volke needs to rely on his Occult skill to OHKO reliably, since knives aren't strong enough to do enough damage to Generals.

Unless I'm mixing this up with another game.

That's ignoring the fact that, to be blunt, Lethality sucks. Badly. It surely isn't worth wasting an Occult on.

[Florete]

Sorry but i wanted to make sure people remember how godly volke is from 10, espically the fact you get to use him more in this one.

While you're at it, go tell people in the FE10 tier list how Godly Astrid is in this game.

[VergilDante100]

Sorry but i wanted to make sure people remember how godly volke is from 10, espically the fact you get to use him more in this one.

While you're at it, go tell people in the FE10 tier list how Godly Astrid is in this game.

Hardy har har, at least i don't have to waste BEXP in this game on her, she eats it like fucking candy.

[Zkirsche]

She doesn't have to, she can just spam physics at the back just as well as any other healer (ok, slightly worse thanks to lower mag, but that's mostly superfluous anyway). The bexp is only if you want a combat unit out of her (Which I don't udnerstand).

[VergilDante100]

She doesn't have to, she can just spam physics at the back just as well as any other healer (ok, slightly worse thanks to lower mag, but that's mostly superfluous anyway). The bexp is only if you want a combat unit out of her (Which I don't udnerstand).

What the hell are you talking about, we're talking about astrid here not mist.