177 replies to this topic

[Mekkah]

It's already being assumed that the player creates additional healing opportunities when that's efficient. The problem is that it's still limited by the amount of turns on every chapter, and that turn 1 generally has no healing.

[Don Draper]

Moulder needs 1700/11.5 (I'll assume he's using Heal/Mend about equally or approximately 148 turns to reach Level 20. If we assume about 12 turns a chapter, thats only taking him 12 chapters, or around Chapter 13. Not to mention the extra exp from Barrier, etc. I don't know if 12 turns a chapter is reasonable or not, I haven't played this game in awhile.

[Mekkah]

It's reasonable for the midgame chapters since they're pretty long, but not so much for earlygame. Ch2, for example, has no healing on turn 1, and likely takes only 2-3 more turns after that.

[Paperblade]

Am I the only one who doesn't have a Boulder with a level lead on others when playing? He can only gain 11 or 12 EXP on player phase, double that if danced to. A fighter only needs to average two non-kill battles per turn to surpass that, and while not every fighter is facing multiple enemies per turn, at least two or three are, and then there's also kills etc. Fielding Natasha makes this even worse as now they have to compete for the heal EXP.

Don't get me wrong, Moulder and healing are awesome, but I don't think he has a level lead. In fact, I don't think he gets anywhere without being promoted much before 20/0.

My healers are usually overleveled (except in 4 due to lolmove save Ethlin and 10 because EXP gain for everyone else is higher compared to the piddling crap combat units get in other games like FE7 plus the lack of awesomeness like Warp and Rescue). Although I'm pretty sure I also take like 50% longer than I should on most chapters because 90% displayed hit is actually 50% in my games.

Edited by Paperblade, 04 October 2009 - 02:03 AM.

[Mekkah]

What team size do you usually have?

[BBM]

I can't ever get a healer in SS to 20 before 14/15. I've never understodd how people are sitting there with a 20/1 Moulder at 11 and 12.

[Paperblade]

What team size do you usually have?

Generally I use just enough to fill the smallest chapter. So if there's a chapter where I can only field like 7 units, I'll only use 7 units (unless there's a unit that joins after that chapter that I want to use). There's obviously exceptions, such as FE4 where you can use everyone, FE5 where lolfatigue, and H5 where Sedgar.

[Don Draper]

What about FE7? (Chapter 28E/30H). You'd be kind of screwed there.
Also, what is the lowest character max in FE8?

[Paperblade]

What about FE7? (Chapter 28E/30H). You'd be kind of screwed there.
Also, what is the lowest character max in FE8?

Outlier/I forgot about it

[Don Draper]

So the minimum deployment slots in FE8 is 9, which seems like a pretty reasonable team. The lords, Franz, Moulder, Vanessa, Lute, Gerik, Kyle and Colm for example. Problem with small teams is that I can never get supports to work out the way I want.

Edited by IOS, 08 October 2009 - 03:01 PM.

[Progenitus]

Even if Moulder doesn't get a level lead (or even just the same level as everyone else), all the high-exp staves like warp and silence start popping up at around ch 15 or so. Since they also have a high weapon rank, Lute/Artur probably won't be able to use them, which limits the competition for those staves to Natasha and Saleh.

[Don Draper]

On my most recent playthrough which aims for low turns (with exceptions made to unlock chests, etc), I found that Moulder was actually at a significant level disadvantage. Most characters were promoting around Chapter 13-14, while it took Moulder until the very end of Chapter 15 to promote. I'm just starting Chapter 16, and here are everybody's current levels. Eirika mode was taken.

Eirika: 20/0
Vanessa: 20/6 Wyvern Knight
Seth --/8
Lute 20/5 Mageknight
Kyle 20/2 Great Knight
Franz 20/6 Great knight
Moulder 20/1 Bishop

Then there's Ephraim who just joined last chapter (19/0), and a few utility characters (Colm/Tethys, levels don't really matter). On another note, nobody has a single B support. Most characters have two C supports.

So when using a small team (7ish units, I guess 8 with Ephraim), I can't see Moulder ever really having a level lead, or even really matching anybody levelwise.

[Paperblade]

So the minimum deployment slots in FE8 is 9, which seems like a pretty reasonable team. The lords, Franz, Moulder, Vanessa, Lute, Gerik, Kyle and Colm for example. Problem with small teams is that I can never get supports to work out the way I want.

I used Forde instead of Kyle on my most recent playthrough (and Duessel instead of Eirika, since her amazing 14 Speed at Level 15 made her worthless), so yeah, pretty much that.

For an idea of how unlucky I am, I had to restart chapter on Scorched Sand about 7 times on one playthrough alone just from Valter critting and/or Piercing.

Edited by Paperblade, 14 October 2009 - 05:39 PM.

[Candlejack]

I'm not using characters above the Lower-Mid Tier; on either route. I'm also using Trainees (Ross goes Berserker, Amelia goes General, and Ewan goes Druid.)

I might go Ephraim Route since Eirika doesn't get awesome Ephraim, awesome Duessel, and awesome Cormag.

[Paperblade]

I only used high tiers since I had actually lost my FE8 cartridge about four years ago (I think it was around... Spring 2005?), and over the summer my cousin tells me he found it somewhere in his house and gives it back to me at a family reunion.

Which is pretty strange, because I know for certain he moved into that house after I lost the cartridge, and I've never actually been to the new house.

So I have the excuse of having not played in a long long time. >_>

Edited by Paperblade, 20 October 2009 - 04:21 AM.

[Progenitus]

Ross

The trainees was a decent idea, but... they really needed better stats.

Ross' earlygame is freaking terrible. 15 HP, 5 str, 3 spd, 3 def, 4 move does not a good unit make. He does horrible damage and likely gets ORKO'd in return. And his growths are only okay (50 str is good, 25 def is okay, 30 spd is bleh).

He does level very quickly (like, 30 exp just for hitting enemies), but even beyond his horrible earlygame, Ross doesn't amount to a good unit. Take a look at his spd base and growth and you know he'll have severe issues doubling, and his def is thoroughly mediocre. He DOES hit like a truck though, so that's nice. Garm is available to fix his spd, but other axemen like Duessel and Garcia want it (Garcia especially is a problem, since the existence of Garcia gives Ross a support, but competition for Garm...).

His supports are a big mixed bag though. Due to his good lck and getting avoid from all supports (except lolewan), his avoid is salvageable despite mediocre spd, but the problem is getting those supports. The setup that gives him avoid the fastest requires that you use Garcia in the longterm though, which isn't the best idea as Garcia loses steam very quickly beyond earlygame (lol20% spd growth)... his backup would be getting Gerik and Lute, but this setup is less feasible on Ephraim route due to Gerik joining later, and there's competition for the LUte support on both routes (Artur clearly is better for Lute, which leaves Vanessa/Kyle/Ross).

Promotion? Well, Warrior is out, as it doesn't give him any spd, and lolbows. Journeyman is just an inferior Berserker, so that's out. This leaves Hero and Berserker. Berserker is probably better, as it gives him a needed +15 crit and has 1 def/2 con over Hero, and Pirate has +1 spd over Fighter (though Fighter has 1 con on Pirate), while Hero and Berserker have the same spd in 2nd tier. This requires that you promote him with the single Oceal Seal that's better off on Colm though. You can use a master seal on him, but that's extra gold, and since it comes in chapter 15 you can't really do any early-promotion shenanigans. Gold is plentiful in this game though, so the higher price tag is fairly minor.

So Ross has several chapters of being horrible. After he hits 1st tier, he still has mediocre spd and def, but his att becomes pretty good, which remains this way for the rest of the game. He has the potential to get decent avoid, but you'll need to cut some corners and make some adjustments for him. Similarly, he has the potential to get Garm, but there's some competition for it.

4/10

Edited by 8========================D, 01 November 2009 - 03:31 AM.

[Progenitus]

Garcia

Garcia's earlygame isn't too bad, but after that, you'll need to use some tricks to keep him up to par.

To start from the top, his earlygame isn't bad at all. His high HP helps pad his average def base, and he has a good str base and decent spd base. In addition, he has 14 con, which means he can use a steel axe's 11 mt for only 1 AS loss. He's probably one of your top 5 fighters earlygame (Seth/Franz/Gilliam/Joshua).

Once you get past earlygame though, the novelty of his decent bases wear off. 20% spd growth is just too bad to work around. His HP/def are pretty average, and his avoid is very poor and res is not much better, and while he gets avoid from supports, he's got issues getting those supports (Ross/Dozla/Neimi all have fairly low chances of being played, Gilliam is okay, Seth is possible, but all his supports save Ross are +2s).

Garcia gets lots of his points due to his earlygame utility, kinda like Dorcas from FE7. It's been awhile since I've looked at enemy stats, but drop him once he stops doubling. If you DO decide to keep using him though, you'll need to do a couple of crucial things to keep him usable (aside from dumping as many speedwings on him as possible)...

- Pick hero at promotion. It gives him +2 spd.

- Throw Garm on him ASAP. The +5 spd will do wonders for him. Thankfully, there aren't many units who are fighting for Garm as the only other units who can realistically hit S-axes are Ross and DUessel, though Ross, as explained earlier, poses a dilemma; with Ross in play, Garcia gets a nice support, but tighter competition for Garm.

- You'll really need to get him full supports, or invest a dracoshield or two on him. He's not going to survive long with average HP/def and poor avoid/res, especially since poor spd means some enemies will double him.

Honestly, Garcia is too much trouble to be worth it beyond earlygame (although he is kinda like Ross with a completely different earlygame). You'll milk far more usefulness out of him than if you tried to make him good beyond earlygame.

5.5/10

[BBM]

I don't know the SS stats off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy to go find them, but even in HM, I'm pretty sure around Chapter 8 or 9, Ross started doubling frequently. Maybe I got lucky.

[Progenitus]

Neimi

Neimi, like many earlygame archers, gets the short end of the stick.

I have no idea why IS thinks it's a good idea to give the earlygame archer god awful bases, on top of the whole 1-range deal. Wolt, Wil, Rebecca, Rolf, Leo, Rolf AGAIN (technically his bases aren't bad for his level, but because he's underleveled they end up being very poor relative to the team), Gordin... of course since I haven't played FE2-5 (technically not 1 either, but FEDS is a remake of that, so w/e), it might be different in those games, but why is it that RD Shinon is the only early joining bow user that doesn't blow?

However, Neimi does get better. Unlike most other archers, who are doomed to never get any 1-range, Neimi can get swords upon promotion, and a horse. Unfortunately, swords doesn't really make Neimi better, rather than make her suck less. Due to the fact that FE8 is loaded with powerful characters, removing her 1-range issue only covers up her flaw rather than add an advantage.

Promotion choice is obviously ranger. There's really no contest. Raw promotion bonuses are similar, but Ranger gives a horse and swords, and sniper gives lolsureshot. Yeah, joke skill.

She has a very quick Colm support, Artur support that's also pretty fast, and Gilliam/Garcia as backup. So she's fine there. She also has a pretty good growth spread, though her def growth blows, but she gets def/avo from supports. However, her terrible start dooms her. She has liek 10 att with an iron bow and doesn't double (or use steel bow and lose 3-4 AS, lol), which is, frankly, the worst unit on the team aside from Ross. When does she start doubling? I don't know. But even when she does, she still has no 1-range until promotion (granted, since she's the only user of Orion's Bolt, she can use it whenever), but it still takes too long for her to get out of her hole to make her anything better than average.

5/10

[Narga_Rocks]

Neimi

Neimi, like many earlygame archers, gets the short end of the stick.

I have no idea why IS thinks it's a good idea to give the earlygame archer god awful bases, on top of the whole 1-range deal. Wolt, Wil, Rebecca, Rolf, Leo, Rolf AGAIN (technically his bases aren't bad for his level, but because he's underleveled they end up being very poor relative to the team), Gordin... of course since I haven't played FE2-5 (technically not 1 either, but FEDS is a remake of that, so w/e), it might be different in those games, but why is it that RD Shinon is the only early joining bow user that doesn't blow?

I suppose Shinon is "early joining" in RD if you just look at part 3.

Anyway, I can't comment on fe2 or 3, but fe5 has Ronan: a guy who's magic growth is nearly 4 times his str growth and the really good str scrolls don't show up for a long time (and while it is true that magic is also res in that game, that's not enough to make it all that useful especially considering his base mag of 0. Too bad there is no "Light Bow" or anything like that). I like using Tanya, but she pretty much falls under your statement as well, though at least she has decent growths.

FE4 has Midir, and while he isn't foot, he doesn't start so great. But fe4 also has Jamka, who probably doesn't qualify. As for second gen, you can start Lester with him able to attack everything 4 times and since you can repair weapons there isn't much reason not to have him use the hero bow excessively. And for when he needs a lighter weapon (hero bow doubles instead of quads) you can also have him pull out the killer bow if 5 extra spd lets him double and then he'll have a chance to critical.

But yeah, after fe4 they stopped making them start good.