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FE6 HM Tier List


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#1 Colonel M

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:38 PM

REVISED 4/23/2014

 

All Routes Are Merged

 

-Top Tier-
Miledy
Rutger
Percival
Marcus
Lalum
Elphin

 

-High Tier-

Saul
Zealot

Shanna

Niime

Shin
Tate

Astor
Alan
Lance

 

-Upper Mid-

Zeiss

Deke

Yodel
Cecilia

Clarine
Klein

Igrene

Noah
Echidna

 

-Mid-

Ellen

Sue

Fir

Bartre
Lugh

Chad

Gonzalez

Fae

Lot

Garret


-Lower Mid-

Treck

Roy

Raigh
Oujay
Lilina

Cath

 

-Low Tier-

Wolt

Ward

Dayan
Juno

Geese
Hugh
Douglas
Barth
Merlinus
Bors
Dorothy
Karel

 

-Utter Shit-

Sophia

Wendy

 

Spoiler (Ilia Route)

Spoiler (Sacae Route)


FE6 Normal Efficiency Tier List Rules

(These are being looked over atm)

"Ranks Are Irrelevant in This List"

This is the "Efficiency" Tier List. This tier list does not abide by the requirements of the in-game ranks given to us. For the FE6 Ranked Tier list, please see This Thread.

Efficiency - "accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort."

This is merely stating that we are assuming that we are not wasting time in these chapters. By "jobs" this could mean from seizing the throne, luring in units, killing units, "chapter requirements" (in example getting all of the villages, recruiting a character). Perhaps the best way to state this is that we are not "blitzkreiging" through the game, but at the same time we are not wasting time using the arena, etc.

"When Presenting an Argument, Remember to Provide Evidence"

I never thought I'd see the day when I need to say this, but it's something that I need to address. When you are making an argument that you seriously want to be changed (as in not hinting but insinuating that I change a position of one or two characters), you must present an argument. This argument should include:

- What the character does before the second character joins. How they contribute positively or negatively to efficiency before the other unit joins.
- A side-by-side comparison between the two characters when they are together.
- How the units do against the enemy, offensively and defensively.
- Supports, if they are practical. It is generally assumed that Upper Mids on up are usually considered "valid" to argue on a character. There are exceptions, such as Marcus and Zealot, who are likely dropped when their positives aren't as profound or they are starting to become a negative to the team. You can assume if a Lower Mid support is possible, but keep in mind that it shouldn't be the crux of your argument.
- Obviuosly later comparisons between the two characters.
- If it is a utility unit vs. a long term unit, assume the following scenario. Who's wins are more profound: the utility unit's or the long term unit. For example, would Zealot's contributions from C7 - 13 outweigh Lugh's entire existance.
- Any way to find a tie breaker. Offensive vs. Defensive doesn't really count as a tie breaker. You can use other examples, such as a unit's earlygame contributions or how a unit's profound durability outweighs the unit's offensive advantages. Most of the time tiebreakers are rarely needed.
- Just keep in mind that you are not sandbagging the other unit in question. If you are giving your unit a stat booster or something valuable of the sort, remember to state the opportunity cost and such with said resource. Nothing is free in this game.

Remember that your comparisons should have what is generally found in an argument. Statistics are very important when discussing two characters. For example, stating "Lot has Avoid problems" without backing up the statement will make me leave your argument in question. Saying "Lot's 20 Avoid is not that great. Using the Fighter here, it has 70% Displayed, 82.30% True" will help me become more convinced with your argument. Also please use other statistics such as "Chance of Death" or "Chances to Crit in One of Two Hits" in your arguments. Anything to help show the advantages of the two characters and who stands out a little more. Also, saying a statement such as "OJ is comparable to Dieck" in a OJ vs. Bartre debate is irrelevant to the point. We value who's doing better between the two in this scenario, not who compares best with the team. We outline the unit's positives and compare it with their negatives, which has the least opportunity cost when being used, and finally who creates more of a positive for efficiency's sake.

"When Arguing With Units, You Are to Assume The Unit Is Being Used"

This is to delete the recruitment costs of a unit to prevent sandbagging certain units from their more correct tier placements. This statement also promises that the unit will be used throughout the entire game or, in utility unit's cases, until either their positives are less profound or they become a negative to the team. I will not assume that a Unit will be used in Gaiden Chapters; however, due to the restrained deployment slots in most, if not all of them. A unit that is forced is considered a positive under most circumstances with the rare occassion that they make the Chapter(s) completely inefficient. For example, while Ward is considered a positive throughout his earlygame chapters due to what amount of damage counts, units such as Wendy can have profound negatives because they have major negatives that outweigh their minor positives. This is also to prevent auto-toping Roy due to not taking up a unit slot.

"No Arena Abusing"

This should be rather obvious with the Efficiency defitnition, but we are not assuming Arena Abuse. 20/1 Dieck by Chapter 8 is an automatic toss-out.

"The Tier Player Is Not Considered 100% Perfect; However..."

...This does not give the person the freedom to assume things such as "we're getting our healers attacked". Efficiency still has a "cost", which can not only mean time, but also life. A unit that is considered a liability defensively should still be duly noted. We are not, however, assuming stupid tactics such as "what if" situations. The general thoughts through a Tier Player's Mind is:

- What he / she can accomplish this turn
- Who can accomplish said tasks with minimal risks
- Protection of certain units (healers and dancers in particular)
- Who can effectively clear the enemies that are within range
- Who can survive on the Enemy Phase

Etc. It follows mostly to Interceptor's idea that the Tier Player is pefect, but what I am insinuating is that you don't get an auto-pass on being weak durably. There is still an opportunity cost within that unit. While Offense should still be recognized, Defense should as well.

"Availability is a Major Factor Concerning a Character's Use of Powerful Weapons and Stat Boosters"

Pretty self explanatory. Characters with excellent availability on powerful weapons or stat boosters, even if they have to share them, are weighed more favorably than those that come after the weapon or stat booster exists.

"Two Characters Competing For a Promotional Item Are Compared as Having Gotten it For Stat Comparison"

This doesn't negate opportunity cost for taking the Promotional Item if a character is being compared to a pre-promote, especially if there is large competition where a significant number of characters win in stats.

"All Chapters, Including Gaidens, Are Assumed"

Pretty self-explainatory.

"Other Information"

BEFORE ARGUING, PLEASE READ - Vykan's Tier List FAQ

General FE6 Info
True Hit
Reikken's website, which consists of calculators for Chance of Death, EXP calculations, etc. This thing is VERY useful.

I also have a few other formulas that I did / asked around for. These might be useful for other characters that you're arguing with, so I'll put them here.

"Chance of Double Crit"

Assume that a unit has a 55% chance to Crit in one hit. The formula would be just multiplying it twice. .55 % .55 = .30. So a unit with 55% Crit would have about a 30% chance to land two criticals in one round.

"Chance of Single Crit"

The formula is taking the Crit rate as a decimal and subtracting it from 1.0. So, for example, a 46% Crit would display as 54% chance to not Crit. Now multiply that value twice (.54 * .54 = 29.16%). Now subtract the result from 100 again. (100 - 29.16 = 70.84%). Therefore a unit that doubles and has a 46% chance to crit has a 70.84% chance to crit in at least one of the two hits.

"Chance to Crit + Hit"

This is useful for units that are a little inaccurate but still wield something like a Killer Weapon. Simply take the True Hit and multiply it by the chance to Crit. For example, a unit with 88% Chance to Hit and 46% Crit would have a .88 * .46 = 40% chance to Critical and Hit the unit. This can "usually" be assumed as a "Chance of Death" if the unit is 3HKOing the enemy.

Feel free to add any more calculations if you'd like. I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the other people within the lists would as well.

Oh and one more thing:

"Be Nice Kiddies"

This is the internet. I understand that people can instigate others to get mad at their statements, but don't take everything seriously. This doesn't give the person the right to instigate either. Alert me or a mod if you have any problems with this and we'll try to address the situation to the best of our abilities. Despite the bitterness between the parties, it's not that difficult to get along so long as we hold back our elitism towards each other.

Savestates...?

Okay, now you need a Gameshark SP (comes with VBA). Now insert this code:

3202AA56 00XX

This is your chapter code. The XX should be replaced with the values below.

By the way I have all the chapter values in this spoiler. Thanks FESS (or moreso VincentASM) for these:
Spoiler ()


Edited by Colonel M, 23 April 2014 - 03:23 PM.


#2 Dat Nick

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:49 PM

Um, Vykan...I want to apologize, for obvious reasons. I didn't have a right to call you out for quitting your obligation to run the tier list so early when I jumped ship after an even shorter period of time than you did, regardless of how 'justified' my actions may be for quitting FE debating, they don't excuse what I said about you. I'm sorry.

Okay, now you folks have some fun.

#3 Tangerine

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 08:38 PM

Garret and Douglas > Lilina

#4 Inui

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 08:50 PM

Garret is way too low on the Ilia one and Douglas is way too low on the Sacae one. Douglas is invincible. Sure, he can't really hit, but countering with shitty Hit > not countering at all, and he's great for carrying Roy around.

#5 Deliriyum

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:17 PM

Now why is Echidna so high? The only thing that is really notable about her is her speed and weapon ranks. Her strength is mediocre and she isn't very durable. Sure, she's good before your other people are promoted, but she really doesn't have a lot of endgame potential because her growths aren't really helping her out. Heck, I'd say Marcus>Echidna. I'm probably missing some huge reason for her being so high so tell me.

#6 Inui

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:27 PM

Efficiency, right?

No support building for Echidna, so lol @ her. She doesn't get to become invincible. I guess she should drop a bit.

#7 Colonel M

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:29 PM

Okay uh... start comparisons with Lilina vs. those units then. I'll have to get back with you on Echinda later.

#8 Deliriyum

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:36 PM

Another thing: Since this is HM, I think Zeiss should go up, especially on ilia route. Zeiss x Miredy is a good support combo. His bases make up for his level deficit. Yes, he may be a little hard to raise, but with 18 base strength and 14 base defense, He can hit hard and not worry about killing the enemy because he is quite durable, even more so with Miredy supported.

Edited by Core, 13 February 2010 - 09:41 PM.


#9 Inui

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:42 PM

Zeiss should indeed get a boost in the Ilia route. Maybe even a big one.

#10 Vykan12

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:43 PM

Um, Vykan...I want to apologize, for obvious reasons.


I was never offended to begin with :)

#11 Colonel M

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:47 PM

Another thing: Since this is HM, I think Zeiss should go up, especially on ilia route. Zeiss x Miredy is a good support combo. Yes, he may be a little hard to raise, but with 18 base strength and 14 base defense, He can hit hard and not worry about killing the enemy because he is quite durable, even more so with Miredy supported.

He also has 11 Spd and D Lances, which isn't very good by the way. I can at least buy that the Zeiss and Miredy support since it's kind of fast (20+3), but looking at some of the enemies.

The Pegasus Knights have 12 AS with the Javelin and 10 AS with the Steel Lance. Still, there's also the FalconKnights that have 15 AS and he fails to double those.

For reference, he gets +2 Spd upon promotion. A 10/1 Zeis can at least double the Steel Lance Pegasi, but fails to double the Javelin ones. To double the Javelin Pegasi, he needs to be almost 15/1 (14/1 has 15.75 after promotion), which is pretty ridiculous as is. Also keep in mind the longer you hold out on his levels, the less he has a chance to double the 10 AS Pegasus Knights. Oh, and the loss of the Killer Lance too, which means you have to use Iron to initiate combat. Granted that he'll do about 21 damage if he's 10/0 with Iron.

It's possible for him to rise, but as to how far, it probably isn't very far at all.

Edited by Colonel M, 13 February 2010 - 09:50 PM.


#12 Deliriyum

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:50 PM

Zeiss should indeed get a boost in the Ilia route. Maybe even a big one.


Look at Miredy's placement, then look at how similar they are. Miredy may have an easier time doubling, but other wise they're rather even. Miredy joins 3 chapters earlier also. I feel like he should be either high in lower mid or in upper mid for Ilia. For Sacae, he should at least be lower mid because there he can at least attack the nomads for no counter, assuming they have a bow equipped.

Edit: But look at the people he's below. Barth, Douglas, Garret, Lilina, Igrene, Ray aren't doing much doubling either. Igrene "has no enemy phase", Ray has some issues all around(namely speed). Lilina is lolfragile. Garret is never going to be doubling, and isn't hitting much harder than Zeiss to make up for it, Also Zeiss is more durable. Douglas and Barth have suckish offense and really aren't much more durable than Zeiss. So if anything, he should go above those people, but I feel like he deserves more.

Edited by Core, 13 February 2010 - 10:43 PM.


#13 Sirius

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:33 PM

It's possible for him to rise, but as to how far, it probably isn't very far at all.

Above Barth?

#14 Deliriyum

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:38 PM

Above Barth?


But how are the other units that I mentioned better than him. His base speed really isn't bad for his level. D Lances is inconvenient, but managable.

#15 Sirius

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:43 PM

But how are the other units that I mentioned better than him. His base speed really isn't bad for his level. D Lances is inconvenient, but managable.

As in, at least above Barth.

Right below Niime may work too.

#16 Colonel M

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:55 PM

Because everyone was lazy, I did the actual comparison with another unit:

Base Zeiss - 36.8 HP | 18.95 Str | 12.85 Skl | 11.3 Spd | 8.75 Luck | 14.75 Def | 3.1 Res
Iron Lance - 26 Atk, 100 Hit, 11 AS, 31 Avoid, 37 HP, 15 Def, 3 Res
Javelin - 25 Atk, 85 Hit, 10 AS, 29 Avoid
Steel Lance - 29 Atk, 85 Hit, 8 AS, 25 Avoid

--/2 Garret - 56.08 HP | 21.3 Str | 16 Skl | 11.57 Spd | 13.8 Luck | 10.25 Def | 5.15 Res
Iron Axe - 29 Atk, 104 Hit, 11 AS, 35 Avoid, 56 HP, 10 Def, 5 Res
Hand Axe - 28 Atk, 89 Hit
Killer Axe - 32 Atk, 104 Hit, 68 Crit

So let's look at our "general line-up" of enemies:

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch17a.html

Zeiss has to use the Javelin or Iron Lance, otherwise he is doubled. The Cavaliers might have Steel weapons (it's been a long ass time since I've played this), so maybe he'll be able to use Steel there. Otherwise? He's doubled by just about everyone. Oh, if that wasn't funny enough: Zeiss can't double the Armor Knight with the Steel Lance. So it's 26 Atk vs. 32 Atk w/68% Crit backed by it. Garret 2HKOes just about everyone but the Paladin(s). Zeiss can't even 3HKO the Paladin. He 3HKOes everything else on the map barring the Bishop, Mages, and obviously the AKs which require more hits. Garret plops 32 damage with the Killer Axe alone backed by ~89% chance to kill the AK without pulling out a Hammer. As for Zeiss, he 2RKOes otherwise, though it takes him 4 hits to do so and Garret can shortcut with a critical. So obviously Garret wins offense.

Defensively, Zeiss will lose to the Bishops and Mages. If any Mage wields Aircalibur (hint: I don't know), fuck Zeiss's life. The Paladin w/Silver Lance has 29 Atk. This 4HKOes Garret due to WTA. For Zeiss? Shockingly 3HKOed.

So let's just say Zeiss gets his 3 levels and promotes. This nets him Killer Lances, btw. Now let's say he promotes (hence why I mentioned Killer Lances) and Garret stays the same.

10/1 Zeiss - 44.2 HP | 22 Str | 16.35 Skl | 14.35 Spd | 9.35 Luck | 17.5 Def | 4.25 Res
Killer Lance - 32 Atk, 106 Hit, 14 AS, 37 Avoid, 44 HP, 17 Def, 4 Res, 38% Crit
Javelin - 28 Atk, 91 Hit

--/2 Garret - 56.08 HP | 21.3 Str | 16 Skl | 11.57 Spd | 13.8 Luck | 10.25 Def | 5.15 Res
Iron Axe - 29 Atk, 104 Hit, 11 AS, 35 Avoid, 56 HP, 10 Def, 5 Res
Hand Axe - 28 Atk, 89 Hit
Killer Axe - 32 Atk, 104 Hit, 68 Crit

Lol Pegasi

This is really scary because Zeiss just caught up to Garret within a snap of a few fingers. Granted, we had to feed him some kills, but it looks justified in the end. He can double those that wield Steel Lances (Pegasi), which Garret fails to do. If he procs Spd and gets Speedwings, he can at least match against Zeiss. Still, the reality comes back to us and Zeiss still loses offensively vs. the other units barring Mercenaries. Garret can likely proc Spd, so he isn't going to get doubled by the FalconKnight. So now Zeiss has a semblance of an advantage offensively, but I'd still say Garret is winning with his Crit%. Defensively, the tables have definitely turned in Zeiss's favor. 44 HP | 17.5 Def is nothing to laugh at. Steel Lance Pegasi do 7 damage to this guy, 6 if he procs Def. Even the FalconKnight fails to 3HKO Zeiss. As for Garret, he also dodges that bullet, granted that he needs a Spd point in order to do so.

After that, I think one needs to realize that Garret barely keeps up afterwards. Zeiss can't effectively double so well, but he isn't completely denied of the Speedwing. At 10/5, Zeiss has 16 AS (15.75). With the Speedwing, Zeiss can at least double the Archers and Paladins. He can double the Mamkutes beforehand, which Garret cannot anyway. Even so, Garret with his 12 AS barely avoids doubles. He gets doubled by the Dragon Lord(s) and Sage(s) in Chapter 20 and 21. Chapter 22 is infested with Heroes. Chapter 23 he might proc 13 AS which should avoid him from getting doubled.

There is one last thing that saves Garret from damnation: Chapter 24 and Final. Because it's pretty difficult to get S rank from C (though it's possible), Garret can at least wield Armads. He actually does about 55 damage on one Mamkute, so it only needs to be chipped a little bit. Otherwise... that's about it.

So it's pretty close, but at the worst a tier difference is kind of hard to buy. I think Zeiss should be up a tier.



#17 Inui

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 12:26 AM

Look at Miredy's placement, then look at how similar they are. Miredy may have an easier time doubling, but other wise they're rather even. Miredy joins 3 chapters earlier also. I feel like he should be either high in lower mid or in upper mid for Ilia. For Sacae, he should at least be lower mid because there he can at least attack the nomads for no counter, assuming they have a bow equipped.

Edit: But look at the people he's below. Barth, Douglas, Garret, Lilina, Igrene, Ray aren't doing much doubling either. Igrene "has no enemy phase", Ray has some issues all around(namely speed). Lilina is lolfragile. Garret is never going to be doubling, and isn't hitting much harder than Zeiss to make up for it, Also Zeiss is more durable. Douglas and Barth have suckish offense and really aren't much more durable than Zeiss. So if anything, he should go above those people, but I feel like he deserves more.



Well, no. The gap between Miledy and Zeiss is indeed extremely massive and shown well in this tier list. They are similar statistically at 20/20, and that's about all. Miledy thrashes him in the actual game.

He's below those guys? Well, let's have a look...

In order for Barth to gain any levels at all, he must deposit massive amounts of Suck into your team. Just fielding him and using him at all is a huge burden, especially for efficiency. He has bottom tier offense due to no Hit or Atk Spd, the worst mobility possible, and never becomes good in any stats but HP, Str, and Def, meaning his offensive and mobility woes never end. Zeiss's joining situation is actually better than his, rofl. He can fly and doesn't have failure stats and can just promote earlier with a promotional item nobody else really wants while Barth is in competition with Cavaliers.

Douglas is the same as Barth but with slightly worse stats, except he didn't add tons of Suck to your team by being used, so he can just be fielded as Sacae/Ilia filler due to being almost invincible in those chapters. That's certainly better than what Barth can do, which is suck and only suck, but it's not better than what Zeiss can do, which is actually become good.

Lilia is like Barth except her offense kinda exists but she instantly dies, so she's not much better. +1 Mov + tons more Hit and Dmg + eventual staves vs not dying. Eh, Lilina is a bit better. But the fact that she's comparable to shit like Barth means Zeiss is definitely way better.

Zeiss should move up a tier.

#18 dondon151

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 01:02 AM

In order for Barth to gain any levels at all, he must deposit massive amounts of Suck into your team. Just fielding him and using him at all is a huge burden, especially for efficiency. He has bottom tier offense due to no Hit or Atk Spd, the worst mobility possible, and never becomes good in any stats but HP, Str, and Def, meaning his offensive and mobility woes never end. Zeiss's joining situation is actually better than his, rofl. He can fly and doesn't have failure stats and can just promote earlier with a promotional item nobody else really wants while Barth is in competition with Cavaliers.

Barth has 1 level until promotion while Zeiss has 3. I wouldn't call Zeiss's joining situation better than Barth's. Barth also has to put up with axes in the Western Isles, but Zeiss has to put up with ballistae in Ilia, or he requires the Delphi Shield that one of the team's other fliers need (i.e. Miledy, even Thany).

Douglas is the same as Barth but with slightly worse stats, except he didn't add tons of Suck to your team by being used, so he can just be fielded as Sacae/Ilia filler due to being almost invincible in those chapters. That's certainly better than what Barth can do, which is suck and only suck, but it's not better than what Zeiss can do, which is actually become good.

I don't see how Douglas is exceptionally better than Barth at being almost invincible filler when 10/1 Barth has 18 def compared to base Douglas's 20 def.

Zeiss is consistently underwhelming, but I agree that flying and OK durability is superior to whatever is in low tier.

#19 Inui

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 01:12 AM

Barth has 1 level until promotion while Zeiss has 3. I wouldn't call Zeiss's joining situation better than Barth's. Barth also has to put up with axes in the Western Isles, but Zeiss has to put up with ballistae in Ilia, or he requires the Delphi Shield that one of the team's other fliers need (i.e. Miledy, even Thany).


Barth promoting = Lance/Alan/Noah/Treck promoting later or even much later. That is horrible. Why is Barth ever promoting? He has to go through a huge period of suck in order to promote and he never becomes worth anything.

Zeiss gains a huge amount of EXP per kill and can fly and doesn't have super extremely failure Hit, mobility, and Atk Spd. Getting him to promotion isn't hard at all, and he doesn't compete much for promotional items compared to Barth.

I don't see how Douglas is exceptionally better than Barth at being almost invincible filler when 10/1 Barth has 18 def compared to base Douglas's 20 def.

Zeiss is consistently underwhelming, but I agree that flying and OK durability is superior to whatever is in low tier.


Because Douglas got to that point without consuming any EXP or money or being a huge burden.

Zeiss isn't good. He's just better than near-graveyard tier shit like Barth.

#20 Colonel M

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 01:24 AM

It's like my post never existed... =(