FEDS "average player" tier list

[Dat Nick]

Okay so this is a lot like the tier list that doesn't belong to CATS in FE9 without the silly shit like "the player doesn't know how to recruit Astrid". In this instance, of course the player will know how to recruit Astrid, but can he keep her alive is the question. Basically what I'm trying to assume is a happy medium between scr00b and FE god levels of play.

Here's an elaboration on what this list does and doesn't assume:

-This is NOT average player in the game of all the average gamefaqs idiots who tiers characters based on growths. It's average in terms of skill, i.e that the player is not a tactical genius who can beat C3 in 6 turns. For further clarification on the skill area I'm trying to argue, think about 15~ turns for most chapters.

-The average player will know how to recruit anybody, knows which chests are in what chapter, knows who's good and who's not, etc. Basically as much intellect as somebody who's either beaten the game once on a dry run or looked up all this shit on Serenes. Take your pick on the analogy.

-Cautiousness is another trait of a player of average skill, which is why I'm assuming a slower pace. Cautiousness also applies to funds out of fear of running out of money as well, so forging will not be 100% optimal, either.

-The average player will make occasional mistakes, such as leaving Shiida or Lena or Gordin out in the open by accident or miscalculation, or having Marth kill a cav out of Riff's reach instead of the one that killed him next turn. I'm using the term average player and not complete idiot here so this shit won't happen ALL the time, but there will be some instances of it since the player is not a tactical genius.

-It's not what the player does for the unit, but rather what the unit does for the player. Like, if I chuck out Zagaro into a group of enemies and he gets tinked by all of them and ORKOs a few back with a handaxe and I do the same with Shiida and it results in her dying, I'm not going to understand why they're in the same tier. Sure, we understand, because we can OHKO shit with Shiida and keep her out of trouble, but the average player can't do that all the time.

-Gaidens that aren't 24x are always assumed. SDS has this rule already but I just want to clarify it applies here too.

-Since we don't have the best pilot for the job, a maximum efficiency or even just an efficient run in general probably isn't a good thing to assume on the average player, imo, but at the same time if we assume going at a snail's pace I might as well just make everybody top tier. This is another in-between here, we're not going fast but we're not going to go slow either. We're going fast as possible, but it's not possible to go as fast as dondon/int.

-The player has access to a character guide which explains the best class choices, and will make class choices according to that guide, unless there is another class easier to use (at this moment, it's fairly uncertian any examples of this exist)

-Speaking of ease of use, it's probably the #1 factor to take into account on this list.

Anyway.

-Top-

Barst

Zagaro

Wolf

High:

Abel

Hardin

Cain

Draug

Cord

Merric

Upper Mid:

Shiida

Wendell

Jeigan

Minerva

Jake

Beck

Ogma

Rena

Bord

Mid:

Horace

Julian

Rickard

Daros

Athena

Navarre

Castor

Jeorge

Marth

Catria

Roger

Caesar

Lower Mid:

Chainey

Paola

Nagi

Gotoh

Tiki

Wrys

Boah

Gordon

Samson

Low:

Linda

Dolph

Astram

Ymir

Vyland

Matthis

Bantu

Etzel

Maccelan

Maria

Elice

Bottom:

Roshea

Midia

Radd

Tomas

Arran

Lorenz

Est

Edited April 11, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Bryan]

Mid:

Horace

Julian

Rickard

Daros

Athena

Navarre

Castor

Jeorge

Roger

Caesar

Marth

How is Marth Bottem of Mid? Any average player will always use Marth, I would know, as I am one.

He's a great unit, he never takes up a slot. He gets a prf weapon, that is forgeable. Most of the enemys in the first few chapters are axe users, by the time Cavs come in, he has gotten a few levels and he can Rapierhax. Why is he so low? This isn't wifi. O.o

[Dat Nick]

He's a mediocre unit

fixed

because 5 base str and like never doubling pretty much doesn't amount to great

rapier is all he has really

Although personally, I would tier Marth for mid-battle convoying, but even without it I guess he has a good case against Roger/Ceasar.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Detective Badd

[grandjackal]

Etzel's below Maccelan? Seriously? What number of ways can I name on how wrong that is?

[Dat Nick]

I...don't know how I missed that. I'm like this close to saying Elice needs to rise above him.

[Colonel M]

Wouldn't the average player find Zagaro and Wolf > Barst?

[Dat Nick]

Said average player would have to deal with the suck phase, and they'd have a harder time doing it than most. Barst is probably easier to use because of that, because he never really sucks. I'm kind of iffy on Zag being better enough than Barst to cancel out earlygame utility/overall ease of use, but it could be possible.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Momo]

Their "suck period" is being like 2 rounded while everyone else is also 2 rounded. Then they level up once or twice and suddenly they're taking negligible damage from everything.

So uh, Chainey. Why Lower Mid? He's your best character, minus a turn every once in a while. Does more for the team than lots of people above him.

[Dat Nick]

The suck comes from offense, not defense. And no, one or two levels doesn't really fix it, it's more like 3 or 4 since they need to stop getting doubled first (honestly I think Hero is a better setup anyway)

As for Chainey, I don't agree with a lot of it, but here's the topic that got him down on FEG: http://fegenesis.shaym.in/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45

Edited April 8, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Momo]

Their low speed still doesn't matter if they're generals. Even if they're getting doubled, they still get 2 rounded like everyone else. As for offense, they're hitting decently hard for maybe a point or two more than average, and almost nobody is doubling yet. As for Chainey, I'm not interested in reading such a long topic, so I'll just counter what that page says.

Chainey can't increase the movement of other characters like normal dancers.

Instead, he becomes them, which can arguably be better, as he doesn't have to be glued to them the entire chapter. He's also not a target for enemies because of this.

Chainey is useless on turn 1.

This is only a flaw when you're warp-skipping. Who else is useful on turn 1 consistantly?

Chainey lacks versatility (chooses one character and must be THAT character for 5 turns).

Sheeda is Sheeda the entire chapter, why is she not lower? This goes for absolutely every character, not just Chainey. And since he's not stuck as one person the entire chapter, it's a plus for him, not a negative.

Chainey requires you to have essentially an extra copy of all your weaponry, since he needs his own equipment.

Penalizing a unit for using weapons? That's ridiculous.

Chainey comes about 2/3 of the way through the game (which doesn't help).

And for that last 1/3 he's as good as your best unit.

Chainey also has crappy stats, whereas Dancers usually have something retarded like huge DEF/RES or AVO to keep them alive.

He literally doesn't care about stats at all, other than the HP he needs healed after transforming. This is all assuming Chainey is supposed to be a dancer, which he isn't. He's a combat/healer just like everyone else. Since he doesn't dance, he's lowered because of those standards, which I think needs to be changed.

[dondon151]

Is warp skipping allowed? Or is the player not proficient enough to do that?

[Don Draper]

Keep in mind that the "average player" probably can't get past the first chapter of H5. Shouldn't we assume this is like....and H2 Tier list?

[Momo]

Just make it the average player that can beat H5. Plenty of people have done it, it's not something only elites can do.

[dondon151]

Then you and IOS (and probably everyone else) obviously have different interpretations of the word "average." That fact in itself is already fatal to the success of this list.

Also, warp skipping is probably one of the simplest strategies that exist in Fire Emblem.

[Momo]

If the average player couldn't beat the game, then there wouldn't be a list, but since the game really isn't that hard, it's not that big of a deal. If you were trying to keep everyone alive, maybe, but otherwise I'm sure enough "average" people have done so.

[nflchamp]

As for Chainey, I'm not interested in reading such a long topic, so I'll just counter what that page says.

Well, since all of your complaints are addressed in that thread, I'll just redirect you back to it for a response.

[Dat Nick]

Is warp skipping allowed? Or is the player not proficient enough to do that?

A: If you don't stop being a jackass, you're going to make me ponder if the satisfaction of paying for an airplane ticket to Michigan or wtfe you are and going through the trouble of finding your house to shove my fist up your ass is worth the opportunity cost of the time and effort it took me to do so.

B: No, for various reasons. The fact I don't like WSkipping being one of them, and not because it's hard to do.

Just make it the average player that can beat H5. Plenty of people have done it, it's not something only elites can do.

Yes. Just because you can't clear C3 in 6 turns doesn't mean you can't clear it at all. I'm only assuming "average skill" relative to this game; as in, someone who has little more than a vague idea to beat it, after a run or two through the actual game with little more experience to fall back on. If you really need clarification that badly, said skill level would take roughly 15-20 turns to clear C6.

And for the record, I don't care if I get warned for that remark. He was pissing me off in IRC all day with shit like "hey you don't say that the player knows how to forge, will he", telling him off is well worth the opportunity cost of a warn.

[_____]

Gotoh needs to go above Nagi for being a fail-safe unit for the average player in Endgame, then.

[Dat Nick]

Gotoh needs to go above Nagi for being a fail-safe unit for the average player in Endgame, then.

I guess if Endgame won't be skipped (which i am assuming it won't) then yeah.

[dondon151]

A: If you don't stop being a jackass, you're going to make me ponder if the satisfaction of paying for an airplane ticket to Michigan or wtfe you are and going through the trouble of finding your house to shove my fist up your ass is worth the opportunity cost of the time and effort it took me to do so.

That was a perfectly legitimate question.

B: No, for various reasons. The fact I don't like WSkipping being one of them, and not because it's hard to do.

You provide one reason, and a totally subjective one at that. 1-turn warpskipping a map is about as easy as clicking on an enemy and putting all of your units right on the outside of the range.

And for the record, I don't care if I get warned for that remark. He was pissing me off in IRC all day with shit like "hey you don't say that the player knows how to forge, will he", telling him off is well worth the opportunity cost of a warn.

That was also a perfectly legitimate question.

[Don Draper]

So, forgive me if I don't really see the point in this tier list? Its pretty much the same as the non-warp skip tier list, with a few characters shifted around within tiers.

Non-warp skip list for reference:

Skittles Tier:

- Zagaro

- Barst

- Wolf

- Sheeda

High:

- Draug

- Cord

- Abel

- Hardin

- Cain

- Merric

Upper Mid:

- Wendell

- Jeigan

- Minerva

- Ogma

- Rena

- Jake

- Beck

Mid:

- Bord

- Horace

- Julian

- Rickard

- Athena

- Navarre

- Castor

- Roger

- Caesar

- Marth

- Katua

- Daros

Lower Mid:

- Tiki

- Jeorge

- Chainey

- Nagi

- Gotoh

- Wrys

- Boah

- Paola

- Gordon

- Dolph

- Samson

- Astram

Low:

- Vyland

- Matthis

- Linda

- Ymir

- Radd

- Macellan

- Roshea

- Etzel

- Bantu

- Midia

- Maria

- Elice

Bottom:

- Tomas

- Arran

- Lorenz

- Est

[Dat Nick]

That was a perfectly legitimate question.

I'd believe you (and wouldn't have interpreted it as a jab) if you weren't being a prick about it on IRC earlier, Mr. But what if the average player doesn't know how to +4 Forge a wing spear.

You provide one reason, and a totally subjective one at that. 1-turn warpskipping a map is about as easy as clicking on an enemy and putting all of your units right on the outside of the range.

Which is why I said I'm NOT excluding warpskipping because it's too hard to do, genius.

That was also a perfectly legitimate question.

Give me a fucking break. Of course the average person we're talking about would know how to forge, it takes IQ slightly higher than that of a mental defect to know how to forge. I can't believe you're trying to pass off a troll (you even admitted as such) as a legitimate question.

So, forgive me if I don't really see the point in this tier list? Its pretty much the same as the non-warp skip tier list, with a few characters shifted around within tiers.

These were only obvious changes made on a whim, because i did kind of make the thing up on the fly. I do believe this list could entirely develop further, in fact, I kind of expect it to.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Rodykitty]

So, forgive me if I don't really see the point in this tier list? Its pretty much the same as the non-warp skip tier list, with a few characters shifted around within tiers.

He thinks that it's a "different perspective" or "different approach", when it is just a tier list without the advancements and discoveries made to the main tier list.

Basically, if I had a copy of the main tier list from several months back, I could copy paste it here and it would be a fully completed "average player" (assuming that this is a player of BB's skill level and playstyle) tier list.

[nflchamp]

I'd believe you if you weren't being a prick about it on IRC earlier, Mr. But what if the average player doesn't know how to +4 Forge a wing spear.

I doubt forging is the problem. Forging effectively will be though. An average player is going to forge like a moron.

Which is why I said I'm NOT excluding warpskipping because it's too hard to do, genius.

But "because you don't like it" doesn't seem like a real reason either. So if there really are "various reasons", you should probably provide more.

[dondon151]

Which is why I said I'm NOT excluding warpskipping because it's too hard to do, genius.

Your usage of the expression "NO" is vague in meaning.

Give me a fucking break. Of course the average person we're talking about would know how to forge, it takes IQ slightly higher than that of a mental defect to know how to forge. I can't believe you're trying to pass off a troll (you even admitted as such) as a legitimate question.

He might put the Wing Spear at +4 and cringe at the exorbitant cost, so settle for +3 or +2, and miss OHKOs. He might not realize the effectiveness of forging effective weapons and blow his cash on forged irons and Fire. He might think that it's necessary to hoard money and not make the necessary +4 MT Hammer, Ridersbane, and Wing Spear forges that trivialize earlygame.