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"Sethskip," warpskip tier list


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I recorded my runs with the intent to redefine a tier player playstyle, so now I believe is the time for me to move forward with this. Since I haven't yet played through Ephraim's route, I will leave it untouched for now.

Eirika's Route

One of these is not like the others:

Seth

A tier:

Vanessa

Tethys

Tana

Moulder

Natasha

Gerik

Cormag

Duessel

Saleh

B tier:

Franz

Kyle

Forde

Innes

Artur

C tier:

Joshua

Garcia

Knoll

Eirika

Syrene

Colm

Rennac

D tier:

Ephraim

L'Arachel

Dozla

Myrrh

Gilliam

Don't use!:

Lute

Ross

Neimi

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

Ephraim's Route

One of these is not like the others:

Seth

A tier:

Vanessa

Tethys

Tana

Moulder

Natasha

Duessel

Cormag

Ephraim

B tier:

Gerik

Franz

Kyle

Forde

Saleh

Artur

C tier:

Joshua

Garcia

Knoll

Syrene

Innes

Colm

Rennac

D tier:

Eirika

L'Arachel

Dozla

Myrrh

Gilliam

Don't use!:

Lute

Ross

Neimi

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

Now, since I played through with 0% growths, I obviously have an inaccurate vision of character placements, especially for growth units. Some of my rhetoric I will detail below:

A tier and B tier contain units that will have long-term use and will save a significant number of turns in the long run. Vanessa tops A tier because of her huge availability and of flying utility. Tana is lower because she only joins in chapter 9, whereas Vanessa has at minimum chapter 7 under her belt for reducing turncount. Tethys is between them, which is a little difficult to justify, but even though she is available for only about half the game, her contributions towards reducing turncount are significant. There is not one chapter where I will not deploy Tethys, because she is just that useful.

Moulder is high up because he has a reasonable chance at Warp and Latona access. Natasha is lower because of lower staff rank, join level, and worse availability, but she also has a reasonable chance at Warp access (Latona is questionable and only possible if she goes bishop, but valk has +1 move). Lagging behind in staff rank made her not able to use Warp only in chapter 17; for the most part she is nearly identical to Moulder. As of now their positions are mostly dependent on Warp usage by endgame, and could stand to drop, though not out of A tier.

Gerik is next because he is a fairly early joining, solid combat unit. He's useful from chapters 11-15, and due to the rout maps and the lack of other great combat units, saves a decent amount of turns, but 15 con and 6 move don't encourage his use past chapter 15. He can actually stand to drop if his contributions from chapters 11-15 aren't that essential if other units can fill his place.

Cormag, Duessel, and Saleh round out A tier. Cormag is not that impressive parameter-wise but possesses a lot of utility, and can go higher. Duessel isn't available for long enough to be higher, and Saleh has long range utility, but not good enough durability to try to solo enemies and ends up spending most of his time spamming Barrier for a higher staff rank.

B tier has Innes, Knoll, and a bunch of growth units. Innes loses a bit on rout maps because he doesn't have an enemy phase, and there aren't that many threatening enemies in this game that merit the use of a bow-locked character to defeat. Franz, Kyle, and Forde are mounted with decent stats and can grow with a bit of EXP manipulation, though the extent to which they can grow needs to be examined further. Either way, they have 8 move on promotion. Artur is an interesting one, because he does get C staves upon promotion and can thus work his way up to A, but the problem is if he can promote early enough to do so with the scarcity of combat EXP. Knoll has phantoms that have situational use, but against those 35 atk Shadowshots near the end of the game, they're nice tools to help facilitate low-turn clears. He can stand to drop, though.

C tier and D tier have units with limited contributions and short-term use. Joshua and Garcia are good characters relative to the other growth units available earlygame, but ultimately, Joshua is shafted by availability of the Hero Crest and Garcia is inhibited by his poor speed growth. Eirika is around for the whole game but has trouble gaining EXP to become good, but at least can use Rapier. Syrene's availability is too limited to be really significant. Colm and Rennac are basically just there because they nabbed items in the desert (Silver Card, Warp, Silence). Unlocking stuff is not counted because Chest Keys, Door Keys, and Unlock are easily obtainable in this game.

Ephraim tops D tier because he is only really useful for chapters 5x and 15. He's unpromoted in chapter 16 and his parameters are just not that great afterwards, even if he does get Siegmund. He doesn't even have 8 move. L'Arachel joins late and will probably be deployed to recruit Rennac (and can heal your characters), but her staff rank is very hard to build and she's never getting to promotion. Dozla kind of sucks and never really amounts to anything. Gilliam has trouble gaining EXP and even attacking due to move issues. Myrrh is never really necessary at all.

Trainees are bottom tier. It's hard to get Ross even to 10/0 when you're blazing through earlygame chapters. Marisa is bottom tier because she joins late and doesn't have the parameters to show for it. Neimi takes forever to train up and is pretty bad on jointime. Lute is somewhat questionable, but the difference between her and Artur is that he gets C staves upon promotion whereas she gets D staves, and C is really the "magic rank" because it allows you to Barrier spam, whereas there are no easily spammable D rank staves (except for Torch, but only on certain chapters). I had a hard enough time getting Artur EXP, and Lute starts a level lower. Her poor durability and her poor potential really make it difficult to justify a deployment slot on any given chapter.

Edited by dondon151
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I question Myrrh at the bottom of D Tier. She's tough to kill and do huge damage. I can see her being very helpful for warpskipping and taking out bosses. Although if she's at a lower level, she might have durability problems as well as doubling/2HKO problems, so I'm not 100% sure.

Glad to see Knoll so high. He's so underrated by so many people. Poor guy. Even tries to save Magvel by warning them about an earthquake. And what does he get? Treated worse than the trainees. So sad.

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Myrrh can probably move higher in D tier, but her utility is still pretty limited. Most non-monster enemies are not OHKO'd, and bosses are tough (base Myrrh has 31 atk, while ch17 Lyon has 17 +3 def and Riev has 16 def). She has only 6 move (but she flies), so there's a point in deploying her in chapter 18, and I suppose she can kill something for you in chapter 20 if you don't want to rely on a double Purge/Bolting. It's mostly just her situational utility against Gilliam's earlygame forced period and everyone else's limited utility in D tier. I will move her above Gilliam for now.

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Maybe it's just me, but I don't see what Dozla / L'Arachel is doing that is so spectacular in comparsion to Myrrh. Granted Myrrh isn't doing much more, but Dozla has serious issues with his Con getting in the way with Rescue and L'Arachel... well... you sort of explained why she sucks too many times in your runthrough.

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It's not "spectacular." They're right above her. Dozla is useful for the rout in chapter 12 and L'Arachel is going to be deployed on chapter 14 to recruit Rennac (and subsequently be your staff user there). Now, I've never really had to deploy Myrrh for anything except for chapter 18, but even then, if you have another S rank weapon user, you can duplicate her utility.

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Why isn't Duessel above Cormag? Does it really come down to the fact that Cormag flies? Duessel is a mobile tank. He's got WTC and he's not fighting for a promo item like Cormag (unless Cormag gets the 15 Master Seal).

Edited by King Russell
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Cormag comes with an Elysian Whip and has dibs on it. Neither Vanessa nor Tana are good enough to get EXP for a timely promotion, and until at least chapter 12 you'll want them unpromoted to be able to carry Gerik around.

It mostly boils down to the fact that Duessel loses availability to Cormag. They're both essential on chapters 15 and 16; neither of them are essential on chapter 17 if your warper has at least 6 staff range, they're both essential on chapter 18, and if Duessel has Garm for chapter 19, he is better there (but I think you can use some other units to kill Riev). Chapter 20, Cormag has flying while Duessel has bosskill. And Cormag exists in chapter 14 while Duessel doesn't. It's pretty close, and can swing either way.

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I don't usually do efficiency runs but I'm considering speeding through this game to see if I agree with you about positions and stuff.

What's the average turn count in this game?

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I don't usually do efficiency runs but I'm considering speeding through this game to see if I agree with you about positions and stuff.

What's the average turn count in this game?

Whose average turn count, though? I'd assume dondon's will be like 40 lower than most people were thinking.

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Innes is really that high? I think he could go at least underneath the Cavaliers. We won't even be deploying Innes after a couple of chapters. Chapter 10, he's too far away to be helpful in actively clearing the chapter, Chapters 11 and 12 are rout in which he's probably deployed but probably not better than the Cavs, he's good in C13/14/15, but every chapter past C15 massively prioritises high move characters, and even C15 he's not great for due to no enemy phase counter. That's not even counting that the Cavs have Chapter 9, which they help in a good deal because it's Rout.

I'm not sure if Knoll should be that high, either. In a playthrough with actual growths, even a 10/01 Falcoknight Vanessa has enough durability to take 35 magic attack, she doesn't even need a Pure Water to survive.

Ephraim could stand to go up too. Duessel has serious difficulty taking out the Cavaliers in the south of C15 on his lonesome, since he doesn't double and has meh accuracy with the Halberd. Ephraim can OHKO them very reliably, on the other hand. I think that's probably better than Eirika thwacking the occasional Knight or Cavalier in earlygame with the Rapier. Eirika in general should go down.

And I'm happy to see Syrene in a decent tier.

Edited by Anouleth
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I can see the reasoning for Artur>Lute on this list (staff rank), but not for Lute being in the completely useless tier. I think having growths makes a pretty big difference on Lute being a useful unit or not.

Knoll's too high. If you value staff rank so highly, Knoll only gets E after promotion, which is much worse than Lute. Lute also can be a decent combat unit if she gets some kills here or there, Knoll is just terrible. Lute can also become a high Mov unit, which seems to valued a lot here. Like Anouleth, I question the true usefulness of Phantoms in a 0% growth playthrough.

Why are Joshua and Garcia in the same tier? Joshua consistently doubles units, Garcia only doubles really slow stuff, which makes Joshua much betetr offensively throguhout the entire game. Is the Hero's Crest really an issue? Gerik shows up with one in his inventory, so Joshua doesn't block anyone better than him from getting one.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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@anouleth

Innes is really that high? I think he could go at least underneath the Cavaliers. We won't even be deploying Innes after a couple of chapters. Chapter 10, he's too far away to be helpful in actively clearing the chapter, Chapters 11 and 12 are rout in which he's probably deployed but probably not better than the Cavs, he's good in C13/14/15, but every chapter past C15 massively prioritises high move characters, and even C15 he's not great for due to no enemy phase counter. That's not even counting that the Cavs have Chapter 9, which they help in a good deal because it's Rout.

I agree. The only thing I can see Innes beating the Cavs at is individual player phase match-ups during Ch11, Ch12, Ch14...and more mov in Ch15. But I don't see how this beats Franz's earlygame, Kyle/Forde's Ch5, and then Ch9 + Ch10 utility, and their mount advantages through the rest of the game.

I'm not sure if Knoll should be that high, either. In a playthrough with actual growths, even a 10/01 Falcoknight Vanessa has enough durability to take 35 magic attack, she doesn't even need a Pure Water to survive.

Of course, but it becomes problematic when there's other enemies around the character who gets Shadowshot, and the Phantoms have other use. Maybe he should be C tier on account of availability alone.

Ephraim could stand to go up too. Duessel has serious difficulty taking out the Cavaliers in the south of C15 on his lonesome, since he doesn't double and has meh accuracy with the Halberd. Ephraim can OHKO them very reliably, on the other hand. I think that's probably better than Eirika thwacking the occasional Knight or Cavalier in earlygame with the Rapier. Eirika in general should go down.

Ephraim has horrid availability though, and Eirika also scores the rare bandit KO earlygame. Maybe Eirika should be under Syrene or something, but really, that portion of C tier is pretty bad as it is.

@Cynthia

I can see the reasoning for Artur>Lute on this list (staff rank), but not for Lute being in the completely useless tier. I think having growths makes a pretty big difference on Lute being a useful unit or not.

It's not just staff rank. Artur has 2 more base AS: Lute doubles things with 0-2 AS, Artur doubles things with 0-4 AS. That's pretty significant in Ch5 already, and Lute is already a chapter behind. It takes a year and a half to get Lute even to L10, and Mage Knight only has 1 more mov than Bishop.

I see the Don't Use! tier as characters that aren't helping turn counts at all when used in their most efficient ways (only when they're forced or there's superfluous room), and even hurting it if they are used seriously (like getting her to that Mage Knight class).

Oh, and 10/1 Lute only has 11 Spd, so her offense isn't really put to good use. Artur's 10/1 Spd is the same, but now he just starts spamming Barrier which Lute can't do.

Knoll's too high. If you value staff rank so highly, Knoll only gets E after promotion, which is much worse than Lute. Lute also can be a decent combat unit if she gets some kills here or there, Knoll is just terrible. Lute can also become a high Mov unit, which seems to valued a lot here. Like Anouleth, I question the true usefulness of Phantoms in a 0% growth playthrough.

Knoll's E staves isn't what gets him there, obviously...it's Phantoms, and the occasional ~20 atk (Flux) potshot. If you want to debate about Phantoms, sure...just argue them against a character Knoll is near.

Why are Joshua and Garcia in the same tier? Joshua consistently doubles units, Garcia only doubles really slow stuff, which makes Joshua much betetr offensively throguhout the entire game. Is the Hero's Crest really an issue? Gerik shows up with one in his inventory, so Joshua doesn't block anyone better than him from getting one.

Gerik's Hero Crest is for, well, Gerik. The next one comes very late, which gimps both severely. You forget to mention that Garcia has Hand Axe/Hatchet, which makes him a fine choice to send out against individual 1-2 range enemies in a rout map or something. And he helps cutting down turns in Ch3, ORKOs things at base in Ch4, keeps ORKOing Soldiers throughout all of earlygame. Joshua's free utility is more limited.

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Artur actually is moving towards a good staff rank, and since he generally has better magic than Moulder or Natasha he might actually be able to warp more than 5 squares at once. Slayer also means his underlevelledness isn't a big issue versus monsters, and his durability against enemy magic users is really good while Lute's is kinda meh. Ivaldi has no competition whatsoever, whereas Lute needs to take Excalibur away from the useful Saleh. Lute has no real enemy phase for Rout maps due to poor durability, so she's not very good to begin with. And her move is only 7 on promotion, and she deals with a big period of 5-move. Growths don't mean much when the game moves too fast to gain levels.

Knoll is not valued for his staff rank. At all. His value is in distracting powerful enemies that would otherwise kill your units, such as Shadowshot enemies. I simply question whether this ability is useful in a playthrough where your units actually have growths, where your units will have better HP/RES. It's obviously invaluable in 0% growths, but 0% growths is not really indicative of a standard playthrough.

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Artur actually is moving towards a good staff rank, and since he generally has better magic than Moulder or Natasha he might actually be able to warp more than 5 squares at once. Slayer also means his underlevelledness isn't a big issue versus monsters, and his durability against enemy magic users is really good while Lute's is kinda meh. Ivaldi has no competition whatsoever, whereas Lute needs to take Excalibur away from the useful Saleh. Lute has no real enemy phase for Rout maps due to poor durability, so she's not very good to begin with. And her move is only 7 on promotion, and she deals with a big period of 5-move. Growths don't mean much when the game moves too fast to gain levels.

Artur and Lute are both unlikely to reach S rank in either weapon type during a warpskip playthrough, so that's all pretty irrelevant.

If Knoll's being credited for his potshots, I'm not seeing why Lute receives no credit for hers, when she arrives a time where they are more useful and she's more accurate and does more damage. Plus if 1-2 range is so highly valued in Rout maps, she's useful there. Poor durability or no, her enemy phase is still much better than Innes', who is like 4 tiers above her.

I still think we have to consider a character's contributions while being fielded during a warpskip playthrough, and Lute is still significantly better than crap like Neimi and Ross even with less CEXP to go around. Artur still got to B tier while having similar leveling issues to Lute so getting to 10/1 obviously isn't that big of a deal.

Artur may double more, but he also has less Mt so he can't ORKO much regardless. Both of them either weaken for someone else to kill or someone weakens for them to kill. Artur might be able to kill things with extremely low HP/Res, but Lute can actually ORKO thigns when she doubles, and FE8 has many abnormally slow enemies (monsters, weighed down, knights etc.).

Basically, I'm not seeing such a huge difference between effieciency and warpskip that makes Lute auto-useless, unless we are jsut assumign her not fielded.

Knoll is not valued for his staff rank. At all. His value is in distracting powerful enemies that would otherwise kill your units, such as Shadowshot enemies. I simply question whether this ability is useful in a playthrough where your units actually have growths, where your units will have better HP/RES. It's obviously invaluable in 0% growths, but 0% growths is not really indicative of a standard playthrough.

Phantoms would have to be incredibly useful to beat out Joshua/Garcia's earlygame leads or even Syrene's few chapters of flier utility, so he should probably at least move below her.

Does Duessel save us so many turns in his 6 chapters to make up for people like Franz/Kyle/Forde who can save us turns in earlygame chapters and very possibly be better than Duessel for those final 6 chapters anyway?

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Unlike Franz / Forde / Kyle, Duessel doesn't really need "training" and an extra promotional item for maximum results. The most he wants, if anything, is pushing his Axe Rank towards S. He's also got Brave Axe to accommodate his lack of doubling, which of course has no competition unless you're fielding Garcia very late for some reason.

As for Knollroll, Phantoms make awesome lures for retarded crap like Shadowshots which hurt like no other. Dunno about Knoll being better than Garcia and Joshua, but definitely better than Syrene IMO.

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You more or less have to train Franz/Forde/Kyle to some degree, since you're using them to help clear some earlygame chapters anyway.

My main issue with Duessel in A tier is his lack of availability. He's not really spectacular (no staff usage, only 6 Mov with terrain penalties), so I'm questioning his overall impact on turncount.

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Well, you'd have to place Boots on Duessel to be honest. That is, in order for him to contribute to the same degree as SETHALITY and whatnot. Garm makes him an awesome boss killer too since he packs a massive amount of Atk with it. I see what you mean with Franz / Kyle / Forde helping with routs, but how many are there really? There's... Chapter 4, which is Franz. Then there's Chapter 11 and 12. Then 15 where Duessel helps more with routing in general (he starts in a slightly better position than the Cavaliers overall). I can see how the limited availability puts him under question of A Tier though, so I'm not completely disagreeing with you.

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Innes is really that high? I think he could go at least underneath the Cavaliers. We won't even be deploying Innes after a couple of chapters. Chapter 10, he's too far away to be helpful in actively clearing the chapter, Chapters 11 and 12 are rout in which he's probably deployed but probably not better than the Cavs, he's good in C13/14/15, but every chapter past C15 massively prioritises high move characters, and even C15 he's not great for due to no enemy phase counter. That's not even counting that the Cavs have Chapter 9, which they help in a good deal because it's Rout.

Makes sense. Innes's usefulness is hard to determine, though, because he attacks so relatively infrequently that you just take his presence for granted without being able to really see what he saves you over time. But really... I deployed Innes for chapters 11-15 and 18 and never really used him otherwise, and he wasn't exactly essential in any of them.

I'm not sure if Knoll should be that high, either. In a playthrough with actual growths, even a 10/01 Falcoknight Vanessa has enough durability to take 35 magic attack, she doesn't even need a Pure Water to survive.

There's also stuff like surviving auxiliary attacks and absorbing a Purge/Bolting on chapter 16. Knoll also makes chapter 18 a little faster by having phantoms kill gorgon eggs that are out of reach (they can ORKO a 10 HP gorgon egg at base). Knoll out of B tier sounds like a reasonable demand.

Ephraim could stand to go up too. Duessel has serious difficulty taking out the Cavaliers in the south of C15 on his lonesome, since he doesn't double and has meh accuracy with the Halberd. Ephraim can OHKO them very reliably, on the other hand. I think that's probably better than Eirika thwacking the occasional Knight or Cavalier in earlygame with the Rapier. Eirika in general should go down.

Actually... Duessel doubles all of the cavs because they're weighed down 2 AS minimum by Javelin and have 10 spd maximum. Duessel only really needs a Hand Axe. Ephraim kind of gets in the way if he doesn't counter a Javelin cav or if he ends up getting ganged up on because his durability is far worse than Duessel's.

I can see the reasoning for Artur>Lute on this list (staff rank), but not for Lute being in the completely useless tier. I think having growths makes a pretty big difference on Lute being a useful unit or not.

10/1 MK Lute still has poor long term offense and durability. She reaches 10/1 probably just a chapter before you get Saleh... who outclasses her in every way but movement and horse. Would deploying Lute in the long term save you turns? Probably not. Is it even worth deploying Lute in the short term? Her magic chip is only slightly better than Artur's, but she "steals EXP" (yes I am using the "steals EXP" argument) that is already scarce and doesn't end up bringing a net benefit.

Why are Joshua and Garcia in the same tier? Joshua consistently doubles units, Garcia only doubles really slow stuff, which makes Joshua much betetr offensively throguhout the entire game. Is the Hero's Crest really an issue? Gerik shows up with one in his inventory, so Joshua doesn't block anyone better than him from getting one.

Garcia is around for longer than Joshua. In particular, being around for chapter 4 and consistently ORKOing revenants is useful for facilitating a fast rout. Joshua is prevented from promoting until chapter 14, but by then his subsequent usefulness pretty much disappears. Garcia has the best non-Seth offense on the team before your growth units begin doubling consistently, and is useful in a lot of 2RKO combinations because he hits really hard.

If Knoll's being credited for his potshots, I'm not seeing why Lute receives no credit for hers, when she arrives a time where they are more useful and she's more accurate and does more damage. Plus if 1-2 range is so highly valued in Rout maps, she's useful there. Poor durability or no, her enemy phase is still much better than Innes', who is like 4 tiers above her.

Take a look at chapter 12. The people who are useful for rout maps are those who can take many rounds of combat on an enemy phase. Even Saleh was borderline on enemy phase proficiency because he's actually 3RKO'd by Iron Lance gargoyles, which means that he takes only 2 rounds of combat safely per enemy phase.

If you can favor Lute and match my turncounts while showing that she's useful, then I'll gladly move her out of bottom tier.

Does Duessel save us so many turns in his 6 chapters to make up for people like Franz/Kyle/Forde who can save us turns in earlygame chapters and very possibly be better than Duessel for those final 6 chapters anyway?

Are any of them matching Duessel's HP/str/def? I highly doubt it. Are they matching his weapon ranks? I don't think so either.

You more or less have to train Franz/Forde/Kyle to some degree, since you're using them to help clear some earlygame chapters anyway.

My main issue with Duessel in A tier is his lack of availability. He's not really spectacular (no staff usage, only 6 Mov with terrain penalties), so I'm questioning his overall impact on turncount.

Duessel has dibs on the Boots. If you get him to S axes, he is hands down your best boss killer. No one else even comes close.

I've applied changes regarding Innes and Knoll. Innes is now under the cavaliers in B tier and Knoll has dropped out of B tier to under Joshua and Garcia.

Edited by dondon151
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Vanessa, Tethys, and Moulder (Tana too I guess) deserve a "S" tier, below Seth tier. These four units actively aid Seth (and the Lord) in killing the boss/seizing, much moreso than Gerik does. You don't need to clear a path when you have flight.

And if a Eph tier list was ever made, Duessel is epic enough to possibly be #2, or at least very close to Seth.

Duessel has dibs on the Boots.

I very much beg to differ, ESPECIALLY on Eirika route. The boots are Seth's alone.

Besides, 50 WEXP in 4.5 chapters? Like THAT'S going to happen. And even if it does:

12 Seth (this is likely sandbagging him, even), Vidofnir: 34.5 (36.5) atk, 17 (19) spd (parenthesis indicate statups)

Base Duessel, Silver Axe: 32 atk, 12 AS, Even acting under the unrealistic premise that he gets to S Axes, he's only beating Seth in ATK by a decimal, losing spd, and has (notably) worse hit. And remember that all of this is with a Seth that is VERY likely sandbagged.

Edited by Cody Travers
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I very much beg to differ, ESPECIALLY on Eirika route. The boots are Seth's alone.

No, they're not. If you can provide evidence that 10 move Seth + 6 move Duessel is superior to 8 move Seth + 8 move Duessel (that's not baseless conjecture), then I will give in.

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As soon as you provide evidence that there's actually a point in having an 8 move Duessel on maps where I can rush Lyon in two turns, rush Riev, warp Seth to Orson (and have him wipe out as many guys possible on enemy phase along the way), et cetera...

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