1028 replies to this topic

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Ground rules:
- Game is to be played on H3 (Lunatic) difficulty.
- Players have completed H1, and as such have access to Mixed Male Classes.
- Efficiency is defined as "Turncount per Chapter", not flat out lowest turncount.
- Prologue performance is not counted for or against a character. Ability to get prologue EXP does, and characters can be assumed to have gotten a reasonable amount of EXP from Prologue.
- All characters are to be recruited for tiering purposes, with the exception of those on the “Joins After Ellerean” list and possibly those in Bottom Tier.
- Units are tiered based on their ability to contribute to an effective team. Units that do not contribute, or contribute extremely poorly, are placed in Bottom Tier. The greater the unit's potential contribution, the higher the unit's tiering position.
- Units in Bottom Tier and the special lists are not ordered. However, all other tiers are assumed to be ordered by level of contribution.
- Gaidens are assumed to exist and be visited.
- At this point, Stat Boosters are not determined as being allocated to any one unit. This may change in the future. This also applies to the buyable Stat Boosters obtained by defeating Lunatic the first time. This may change as more information becomes available, but for now we got nothing. Also, Potions are not assumed to exist. Also, Wifi is not assumed to be accessible.
- NEW RULE: Rainbow Potion is allowed, and is assumed to be used for up to 4 characters per chapter. Feel free to use it in arguments for characters.

About the Special Lists:

The “Free Silvers” list is based on the idea that pretty much every character that shows up after Ellerean provides no real contribution to a team, save for a select few characters (Endgame Bishops, Katarina, Xane, Tiki, Nagi). Athena is tiered due to being available in Prologue. Feel free to argue characters out of this list, but bear in mind that you need to state specific situations where they can provide useful utility that is not “reclass to Cleric/Bishop and staffbot” or “perform actions that anyone can such as trade”.

The Unique Utility list is used to include characters that simply cannot be tiered by conventional means. My Unit is in the Unique Utility list simply because based on player choices, it will either be boss as hell of fairly meh, so its tiering position depends on the player, as well as far more variables than can be calculated effectively. This isn’t FE4 where the only thing determining stats is a limited pool of fathers. The 4 Bishops can’t really be tiered effectively, simply because they show up for one chapter and are basically used to staffspam for Medeus, so it’s impossible to conventionally tier them. Healers and Thieves are going in No Contest tier simply because of the impossibility of tiering their usability in comparison with combat units. In addition to this, thieving and healing are so vital to the game, and their stats are so irrelevant to their ability to perform this task, that other than Malliesia’s access to Hammerne, all of the healers are basically interchangeable in this regard. You "must" have at least 1 thief and at least ~2 healers, so just pick some from this list and you're good to go.

Unique Utility
Marth
My Unit
Julian
Rickard
Xane
Feena
Malliesia
Wrys
Yumina
Etzel
Katarina
Lena
Maria
Nyna
Elice

FE12 Tier List:

Jesus With Wings
- Palla
- Sirius
- Catria

High
- Shiida
- Luke
- Draug
- Rody
- Minerva
- Cecile

Upper Mid
- Linde
- Arran
- Ryan
- Merric
- Jeorge
- Nagi
- Darros
- Belf
- Leiden

Lower Mid
- Tiki
- Cain
- Frey
- Roger
- Nabarl
- Ogma
- Barst

Low
- Gordin
- Warren
- Bord
- Wendell

I'm FE12, what is this?
- Norne
- Samto
- Castor
- Bantu
- Caesar
- Radd
- Yubello
- Matthis
- Cord

“Free Silvers”
Ellerean
Dice
Maris
Horace
Jake
Robert
Beck
Athena
Est
Dolph
Abel
Macellan
Astram
Tomas
Sheema
Samson
Frost
Roshea
Vyland
Sedgar
Wolf
Midia
Ymir
Michalis

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 18 December 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[HitmonNorris]

I honestly think Ryan should move up a bit because his growths aren't too shabby. He's very useful chip damage in the prologue stages and has lot's of early game utility because of the beginning dracoknights and such. Just my opinions, though.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

20% Base Speed Growth, 0 Personal Speed Base? You're looking at 45% growth MAX due to Hunter being your class of choice (Archer with the boss 5 mov and terrible terrain penalties? nothx).

Archers aren't important anyway until Flying Dragons, at which point Jeorge shows up and starts annihilating things with Parthia. Also, Arran can reclass to Sniper for DK-raping utility.

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 12:52 AM.

[HitmonNorris]

He doesn't need to be doubling because he's attacking from a range.

[Psych]

Feena doesn't have wings. Thusly, she should be above Sirius in High.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

He doesn't need to be doubling because he's attacking from a range.

Need a ranged attack? Javelins and Hand Axes start showing up damn fast, and when Ryan isn't doubling, you're better off fielding someone who isn't guttertrash and a combat liability.

[Emperor Hardin]

Why's Draug so high?

Edited by Emperor Hardin, 26 July 2010 - 12:58 AM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Draug being reclassed into Cavalier makes him essentially Rody++, as he has excellent speed growth, solid bases, etc. Between a 50% base Speed growth and ridiculously better bases (+2 base HP, +3 base Str, +5 base Spe, +2 base Def), Draug is looking at being just as effective as Jake and Rody as a cavalier in the long run.

[HitmonNorris]

Draug has insane speed growth making him an excellent canidate for going hunter -> horseman.

[grandjackal]

I haven't even played Lunatic and I have questions about this one.

- All characters are to be recruited for tiering purposes, with the exception of those on the “Joins After Ellerean” list and possibly those in Bottom Tier.

Why start at Elleraen? There's plenty of dumbshit units early on, like Matthis and Samuto.

- Units are tiered based on their ability to contribute to an effective team. Units that do not contribute, or contribute extremely poorly, are placed in Bottom Tier. The greater the unit's potential contribution, the higher the unit's tiering position.

Define contributing. Helping us go faster, or making things easier?

- At this point, Stat Boosters are not determined as being allocated to any one unit. This may change in the future. This also applies to the buyable Stat Boosters obtained by defeating Lunatic the first time. This may change as more information becomes available, but for now we got nothing.

What about Orb Shards, since they are essentially like rings in Shining Force. You can still re-allocate them onto other units if one wishes, so it can be assumed for multiple units.

About the Special Lists:

The “Free Silvers” list is based on the idea that pretty much every character that shows up after Ellerean provides no real contribution to a team, save for a select few characters (Endgame Bishops, Katarina, Xane, Tiki, Nagi). Athena is tiered due to being available in Prologue. Feel free to argue characters out of this list, but bear in mind that you need to state specific situations where they can provide useful utility that is not “reclass to Cleric/Bishop and staffbot” or “perform actions that anyone can such as trade”.

This defines a good majority of the characters in the game, much more than that. For instance, I notice you have Roddy in High Tier.

The No Contest list is used to include characters that simply cannot be tiered by conventional means. My Unit is in the No Contest tier simply because based on player choices, it will either be boss as hell of fairly meh, so its tiering position depends on the player, as well as far more variables than can be calculated effectively. This isn’t FE4 where the only thing determining stats is a limited pool of fathers. The 4 Bishops can’t really be tiered effectively, simply because they show up for one chapter and are basically used to staffspam for Medeus, so it’s impossible to conventionally tier them. Healers and Thieves are going in No Contest tier simply because of the impossibility of tiering their usability in comparison with combat units. In addition to this, thieving and healing are so vital to the game, and their stats are so irrelevant to their ability to perform this task, that other than Malliesia’s access to Hammerne, all of the healers are basically interchangeable in this regard.

The four healers at the end can easily be tiered thanks to their use with the Again staff to aid in slaying Medius as soon as possible.

My Unit can be tiered based on class, since generally we will know/learn what stat distribution is going to be best for said class.

High
- Sirius
- Shiida
- Arran
- Luke
- Draug
- Rody
- Marth
- Tiki
- Nagi
- Etzel

I'm going to have to say this, but I feel like I'm going to be shot for this. Sirius is in high. This man has crap midgame. Class Swap makes him stellar at jointime, but all he's got is retreating to sniper for midgame and onward he's doing what anyone else as the sniper class is doing. Am missing something here? I feel Sirius might be a bit high.

Shiida is above Arran. I want you to try again with that one.

Rody? In this tier? You funny man.

Why is Tiki above Nagi, and why are they both in High Tier with their minimal contributions (or in Tiki's case, not really contributing much)?

Mid
- Jeorge
- Merric
- Ellerean
- Minerva
- Cain
- Frey
- Roger
- Nabarl
- Ogma
- Barst
- Ryan

In fact, why is George not in High? Seriously, let's try the dragon's valley without a Parthia user. From there on, he's pretty much doing what any other archer is doing.

What the hell are Cain, Frey and Roger doing to make up for Ryan's contributions in Prologue and in the early portions of the real game? What Cain does in P-8 does not make up for making Shiida go down quick along with all the chip prior to. I give Navarre and Ogma the slip since Ogma helps protect our Rescue Staffer while Navarre helps with Feena.

Barst is this high. Explain. Hammer use in chapter 6?

Low
- Gordin
- Warren
- Bord
- Athena
- Katarina
- Wendell
- Cecile

Looks about right.

I'm FE12, what is this?
- Norne
- Samto
- Castor
- Bantu
- Caesar
- Radd
- Yubello
- Matthis
- Cord

Yubello to Low for being an auxillery Shaver user.

Special Lists

“Free Silvers”
Dice
Maris
Horace
Jake
Darros
Robert
Belf
Leiden
Beck
Est
Dolph
Abel
Macellan
Astram
Tomas
Sheema
Samson
Frost
Roshea
Vyland
Sedgar
Wolf
Midia
Ymir
Michalis

While a lot of people easily do fit in such a tier, Raiden can actually be decent as a Swordmaster with an insta-seal. I'll have to recheck some dragon valley stats before I decode on others though.

Frost is not in the appropriate tiers according to your rules.

[Don Draper]

Yubello to Low for being an auxillery Shaver user.

I lol'd pretty hard.

I mean, seriously? He has 22 effective attack with Shaver, which doesn't kill anything and he's ORKO'd by everything in sight.

If there's any character in this game deserving of Bottom Tier, its Yubello.

[grandjackal]

I lol'd pretty hard.

I mean, seriously? He has 22 effective attack with Shaver, which doesn't kill anything and he's ORKO'd by everything in sight.

If there's any character in this game deserving of Bottom Tier, its Yubello.

Errr....It can count as chip against dracos? ;;>>

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Why start at Elleraen? There's plenty of dumbshit units early on, like Matthis and Samuto.

Ellerean is the last of the big block of "useful characters". About 1/4 of characters before him are useful, whereas about 1/20th of characters afterwards are.

What about Orb Shards, since they are essentially like rings in Shining Force. You can still re-allocate them onto other units if one wishes, so it can be assumed for multiple units.

Again, until we have concrete information like "assumed levels" and detailed enemy stats, I'm not bothering to include stuff like this.

The four healers at the end can easily be tiered thanks to their use with the Again staff to aid in slaying Medius as soon as possible.

Not even going to bother tiering 4 random staffbotters that only show up at the very end. In fact, note that I'm not even bothering trying to tier staffbotters at all, because it's about as fun as sticking my hand in a box of razor blades.

My Unit can be tiered based on class, since generally we will know/learn what stat distribution is going to be best for said class.

Fuck that. Too many combinations. Besides, MU is forced on every map, and is going to essentially stomp every nut ever as long as you're marginally competent. At some point I'm going to compile a list of "best MU builds" like Fighter -> Hero/Berserker or AK/Cav -> Paladin.

I'm going to have to say this, but I feel like I'm going to be shot for this. Sirius is in high. This man has crap midgame. Class Swap makes him stellar at jointime, but all he's got is retreating to sniper for midgame and onward he's doing what anyone else as the sniper class is doing. Am missing something here? I feel Sirius might be a bit high.

You might be right, but Sirius has solid bases, awesome weapon levels, and fairly great growths. He's pretty much replacing Arran as soon as he shows up, and is more useful for the rest of the game.

Shiida is above Arran. I want you to try again with that one.

Shiida still has Wing Spear utility, even though it's not as big a deal as in FESD. FWIW, I wanted her immediately below Arran, but IOS, dondon, and PBlade said otherwise, and I'm gonna trust them on this one.

Rody? In this tier? You funny man.

Rody was originally in Low near Cecile, and Colonel M cried. I'd be glad to drop him back down, I find him to be fairly useless. He's back below Cecile.

Why is Tiki above Nagi, and why are they both in High Tier with their minimal contributions (or in Tiki's case, not really contributing much)?

Beats me. I'd be okay with them being a little lower, but Paperblade vouched for their effectiveness in dispatching dragons of all kinds. I don't really care which is higher. Also, Tiki shows up earlier, which is a plus.

In fact, why is George not in High? Seriously, let's try the dragon's valley without a Parthia user. From there on, he's pretty much doing what any other archer is doing.

Again, IOS, dondon, and Paperblade agreed that top of Mid was better than bottom of High for him. I'm willing to rethink that one with a little convincing.

What the hell are Cain, Frey and Roger doing to make up for Ryan's contributions in Prologue and in the early portions of the real game? What Cain does in P-8 does not make up for making Shiida go down quick along with all the chip prior to. I give Navarre and Ogma the slip since Ogma helps protect our Rescue Staffer while Navarre helps with Feena.

Ryan is busy being mediocre and then getting dumped when real units come along. Frey, Roger, and Cain join with decent bases and have some staying power once their growths kick in. Obviously Prologue isn't weighted nearly as much, considering that the game basically explicitly makes it clear that "these are the units you are supposed to use this way". It's a tutorial through and through, and just because you're intended to figure out "man, archers really really rape peg knights" doesn't mean that I'm going to say Ryan is a good character simply because he fulfills a role that he's explicitly created to fill.

Barst is this high. Explain. Hammer use in chapter 6?

Beats me. Everyone wanted him lumped in with the other "average joes" like Frey, Navarre, and Ogma.

Yubello to Low for being an auxillery Shaver user.

Linde exists, and if you're THAT starved for magic use, just chip a little with Mage!Cecile early on. 15 combats to D, and that's not especially impossible to achieve. Yubello has -2 base Mag. That's 22 EFFECTIVE MIGHT. That's trash. You're better off using Gordin, Ryan, and Warren to do that than fucking Yubello.

While a lot of people easily do fit in such a tier, Raiden can actually be decent as a Swordmaster with an insta-seal. I'll have to recheck some dragon valley stats before I decode on others though.

Like I said, feel free to argue him out. He looks decent enough, with solid bases, but his weapon levels are underwhelming. Still, I'm willing to give him a run. Just gimme a little more evidence.

Frost is not in the appropriate tiers according to your rules.

Frost provides nothing to your team that you don't already have. You should have at least 2 of Malliesia, Wrys, and Yumina, and Katerina shows up stomping Frost all around the town.

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 02:00 AM.

[dondon151]

Fun fact: Aura Linde has the same atk as Shaver Yubello against an effective enemy.

Caeda's spd growth pretty much guarantees doubling forever and she has easy access to either sniper or SM for effective damage against dragons. She also has prologue. Especially P-4, which is pretty much impossible without her if you don't have an armor MU.

I think that Rody is better than Cecile, at least. Starting chapter 3 you have 1 Lady Sword between 3 units who can use it, and Cecile's competition uses it better. Additionally, Rody has twice the amount of maps in the prologue to get out of his "I'm OHKO'd" rut while Cecile has a combination of more competition, less maps, and more levels required to stop being OHKO'd by like, everything.

Edited by dondon151, 26 July 2010 - 02:11 AM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'll buy Rody > Cecile, but neither of them is especially good. Maybe Rody at bottom of mid? He's not exactly low tier material, IMO, but he isn't deserving of being anywhere near Draug and Luke.

[HitmonNorris]

Rody should be at LEAST Mid...

His growths are as good as Luke's and his bases VERY slightly lower. He should be higher around Cain and Frey because he has more availability.

[grandjackal]

I never claimed Roddy should be bottom/low, just not in high.

About George: What makes him not a high tier guy? He pretty much IS the answer for the flying dragons in the valley. Without him, your trials there just became a lot more annoying. It's better to have Parthia with someone else using Excalibur, and unless I can see proof that someone else could have A rank by then, I'm having a hard time believing George isn't able to help out. Is it due to his lategame? Cause I could see how his meh speed growth could be problematic. However, even lategame he has uses against flying dragons, of which you see some in the dale or at Medius's plateu. Though I imagine that others could have A rank bows by then, but he's still capable without training.

About Tiki/Nagi: I can see how they have a use (dragonslaying in the final portions), but it's just a small portion in comparison. It's great obviously, but I don't see how it's better than let's say George's insta-Parthia utility.

About Ryan: Bullshit you don't weigh prologue as much, the dude's in freaking mid tier. Why else would Ryan be that high if apparently he's dealing with crappy bases for most of his existence when compared to the Meh Trio? It has to be prologue and his contributions early on in chapters such as 1 and 2. Cain's just some guy who shows up ok and stays that way forever when you could have better.

About Raiden: I would, but I think he's gonna be tricky on his own. I'll have to look into expected levels with the guy for his future performance first.

About Frost: Just saying, he's still a healer and that's obviously what we're gonna use him for outside of his additional chip. Also, Frost can be switched to Sage to have...Well, I can't see his weapon rank. Ok, guess I'll drop Frost for now.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Jeorge is awesome when he's pwning Flying Dragons with Parthia, but when he's not, he's just meh. Part of being in High is that you kick ass *all the time* while you are around, not just when enemies that you do well against show up. Arran is solid all the time until Sirius shows up and takes up his spot. He's also crucial for earlygame, far more than other characters are. Marth has fairly great growths and is obviously the lord, so he's basically someone like Navarre/Ogma with better growths, better availability, no need to promote (solid exp gains forever), Rapier utility fwiw, and his very own "fuck Earth Dragons" weapon/shield. Shiida will double forever and still has Wing Spear utility. Tiki/Nagi are incredible for taking out the bullshit lategame. Jeorge has a couple moments to shine, and other than that either provides chip or benchwarms.

Ryan is the bottom of mid, and that's only because people wanted a tier gap between him and Gordin/Warren. Originally, I had Upper/Lower Mid, but I didn't think they were necessary once we decided to throw out the trash below Ellerean. I'm all for him chilling next to his equally fail compatriots, I just remember seeing some resistance there.

[grandjackal]

Jeorge is awesome when he's pwning Flying Dragons with Parthia, but when he's not, he's just meh. Part of being in High is that you kick ass *all the time* while you are around, not just when enemies that you do well against show up. Arran is solid all the time until Sirius shows up and takes up his spot. He's also crucial for earlygame, far more than other characters are. Marth has fairly great growths and is obviously the lord, so he's basically someone like Navarre/Ogma with better growths, better availability, no need to promote (solid exp gains forever), Rapier utility fwiw, and his very own "fuck Earth Dragons" weapon/shield. Shiida will double forever and still has Wing Spear utility. Tiki/Nagi are incredible for taking out the bullshit lategame. Jeorge has a couple moments to shine, and other than that either provides chip or benchwarms.

How many enemies in the dragon's valley are any less bullshit? The fact George can snipe quite a few of them out of the sky while providing chip on barbarians/swordmasters/thieves to help the frontliners avoid counters so they can take on the next coming set of enemies is of a pretty big boon. If Nagi and Tiki can be in high for their contributions for the final 4 fights in the game, then George can get to high for his 4 chapters, not to mention for those 4 chapters of Tiki and Nagis he could still be fielded and still shove a foot up any flying dragon's ass.

Ryan is the bottom of mid, and that's only because people wanted a tier gap between him and Gordin/Warren. Originally, I had Upper/Lower Mid, but I didn't think they were necessary once we decided to throw out the trash below Ellerean. I'm all for him chilling next to his equally fail compatriots, I just remember seeing some resistance there.

Again, I feel you are ignoring the fact that Cain and co don't really contribute much themselves. Cain pretty much needs a seal to be Malice without the Lady Sword.

Actually, now looking it, Malice pretty much IS Cain with 2 more Def/5 more Lck and while lacking Lance rank has access to the Lady Sword and Elysian Whip so she has 2 item options to promote with rather than just 1.

[Colonel M]

I claimed Rody for same tier because all he really needs is levels to escape his ORKO rut, which is all that Luke is getting. Admittedly Luke is better, but Rody only falls short by 1 Str, Spd, and Def at base. Yes, this is a lot and things like his Str growth will never catch up. But, however, keep in mind that Rody at least has the same Def growth and +15% Spd growth on his plate, which means in 7 levels he should tie Luke. Rody's Lance Rank can be seen as slightly better in a few situations later in the game since Luke's Sword Rank only matters for Armorslayer (and if you can get there, which I won't doubt). I guess there is Swordmaster and Luke might be closer to B Rank, but Rody could be closer to C Rank for DracoKnight to snipe around Dragons or class swap to General or Paladin if needed (whichever is preferable to the situation).

Luke could possibly be a tier better, but I'm not 100% convinced of it yet.

EDIT: Or 5.

About Frost: Just saying, he's still a healer and that's obviously what we're gonna use him for outside of his additional chip. Also, Frost can be switched to Sage to have...Well, I can't see his weapon rank. Ok, guess I'll drop Frost for now.

Frost pretty much sucks in this game, Wlv wise. D Tomes, C Staves. It's not much really. I'd say B is the bar minimum I'd look for Endgame since it gives Physic, Recover, and Again. A of course is always better (Fortify), but can't get everything I want in life either.

Edited by Colonel M, 26 July 2010 - 08:13 AM.