1028 replies to this topic

[Sploosh]

Why is Linde so low? Is her durability that bad?

Maris for mid.

Edited by Sploosh, 26 July 2010 - 08:12 AM.

[dondon151]

Please qualify your argument. We will disregard statements of "X should be in Y tier."

About Ryan: Bullshit you don't weigh prologue as much, the dude's in freaking mid tier. Why else would Ryan be that high if apparently he's dealing with crappy bases for most of his existence when compared to the Meh Trio? It has to be prologue and his contributions early on in chapters such as 1 and 2. Cain's just some guy who shows up ok and stays that way forever when you could have better.

SDS and I agree that low tier is defined to include units who have respectable amounts of utility for short periods of time. Gordin, Warren, and Ryan all fit into that bill. Now, Ryan has the entirety of prologue on Gordin and Warren (face it, we're not going up against Jeorge and we're not passing up Athena), and I'd argue that short of an armor MU, Ryan helps make the prologue possible. So it follows that Ryan is a tier up on his bow wielding friends.

[Don Draper]

I don't understand why Rody went to low. With modest levelling, he can have the following stats by the beginning of Chapter 4 (And if you're planning on using him, I'm under-exaggerating):

Rody 7/0: 24.8 HP, 9 Str, 8.6 Skl, 9.9 Spd, 8.6 Lck, 8.4 Def

Compared to Cavalier Ogma, coming then:

Ogma 7/0: 27 HP, 9 Str, 8 Skl, 10 Spd, 5 Lck, 10 Def

We're talking +2.2 HP, and +2.6 Def here for Ogma which isn't a tier difference when you consider that:

1) Rody's probably rocking C Lances/D Swords at this point, while Ogma will have E Lances/C Swords

2) Rody wins speed by 25%, def by 10% and only loses HP by 10% and strength by 5%

3) I'm probably being too mean with Rody's level right now. In the entire prologue and 4 chapters I doubt he's only gaining 6 levels.

Therefore, I think he should be moved up to Mid perhaps right below Ogma. I'll admit his start his shaky, but not "Bottom of Low" shaky.

[Sirius]

Frost pretty much sucks in this game, Wlv wise. D Tomes, C Staves. It's not much really. I'd say B is the bar minimum I'd look for Endgame since it gives Physic, Recover, and Again. A of course is always better (Fortify), but can't get everything I want in life either.

Is C ranked.

[Sploosh]

Well...Maris vs. Cain. Cain is definately better due to availability and lance rank, but Maris only comes a couple chapters later, one level higher with the same sword rank with +1 SPD and +2 DEF. Her growths are a little on the low side, but not enough to warrant her the "Free Silver" tier imo. Maybe on low Mid/High low tier.

What do people think about Curate Linde or Cecil? Compared to Wrys, aside from his Prologue, they rape him growth-wise and have chapters available before him. When he rejoins, they should have about the same staff rank, maybe even higher.

Edited by Sploosh, 26 July 2010 - 09:56 AM.

[Colonel M]

Is C ranked.

Crap, not GBA inferior Physic. I always get those two confused somehow.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Well...Maris vs. Cain. Cain is definately better due to availability and lance rank, but Maris only comes a couple chapters later, one level higher with the same sword rank with +1 SPD and +2 DEF. Her growths are a little on the low side, but not enough to warrant her the "Free Silver" tier imo. Maybe on low Mid/High low tier.

That looks ok... until you realize that Cain has a good 30% Speed growth and 20% Def growth on Maris, as well as availability, lance rank, AND prologue. By the time you would have Maris, you already have a ton of units that do the same thing without having fail Def growth.

What do people think about Curate Linde or Cecil? Compared to Wrys, aside from his Prologue, they rape him growth-wise and have chapters available before him. When he rejoins, they should have about the same staff rank, maybe even higher.

Like I said, stats are nearly irrelevant to how a staff user functions. I might be willing to buy Curate Cecile, but all that would do is move her into the No Contest tier. As for Linde, she can at the very least Aurabomb shit, and I doubt that being a fourth random lol healer is worth giving potential mad chip up.

[Paperblade]

I think Palla could stand to drop to the bottom of Top if not a tad lower. Her Speed growth makes her reliant on being stuck in fast classes (PK, Sniper, SM) and/or Speedwings to keep up mid-late game. Keep in mind I might be overvaluing late game performance because it was much more recent for me.

Shiida is above Arran. I want you to try again with that one.

Arran's growths don't exist and he's reliant on having promoted class bases to jeigan early game. He's useful there, but once you get better Snipers and you get enough units to fill up a team with non-fillers, there's no reason to use him. Meanwhile, Caeda is doubling everything and has effective bonus on Generals and Paladins, which make a good showing in chapters

5
6
6x
8
15
18
19
20

Note that that's more than a Bow user can say (Jeorge only has 9, 11, 21, and like half a dozen guys in 18+19). Consider that a vast majority of enemies in 15 and 18-19 are mounted (I'm talking upwards of 80%)

I'm going to have to say this, but I feel like I'm going to be shot for this. Sirius is in high. This man has crap midgame. Class Swap makes him stellar at jointime, but all he's got is retreating to sniper for midgame and onward he's doing what anyone else as the sniper class is doing. Am missing something here? I feel Sirius might be a bit high.

Sirius is high because he has auto B Swords and A Lances, meaning he doesn't have to worry about weapon rank, and his growths are very high as to counteract his poor personal bases late game (promoted class bases counteract them early). However, both he and Arran are a bit high. Arran could probably stand to drop to just above Tiki and Sirius to just above Draug (Sirius can go Horseman or General and win by abusing his Sword/Lance ranks).

In fact, why is George not in High? Seriously, let's try the dragon's valley without a Parthia user. From there on, he's pretty much doing what any other archer is doin

Jeorge has a 5 personal Speed base a 15% growth, meaning that the only thing he CAN do is OHKO Ch. 11 flyers with Parthia.

Which is cool, but any other serious bow user isn't going to be far behind in that department, and is actually going to hold up in scenarios where I don't need to kill flyers, or where I don't want to waste Parthia (for example, Caeda will actually be doubling Dracoknights). Jeorge also suffers from having a terrible support list (MU, Gordin, and Astram. Meaning someone that's on every list and two horrible units), whereas Caeda can give Marth and Ogma/Roger boosts, and in turn get an avoid/crit boost from Marth. Jeorge is also SoL in other class options since that further hurts his already bad Speed base.

Jeorge is very useful for a specific enemy type in a single chapter in the game. Yes, this is good considering half the cast is useless from the word go, but Caeda does the *same thing* in many more chapters, and actually might do something of note when pitted against an enemy that she doesn't OHKO with an A rank weapon.

If anything he should drop below Merric and Etzel, who join a chapter later but can also heal but have more options for dealing with flyers (Excalibur has more uses and you get another copy in 20x) and are much faster/tankier.

Beats me. I'd be okay with them being a little lower, but Paperblade vouched for their effectiveness in dispatching dragons of all kinds. I don't really care which is higher. Also, Tiki shows up earlier, which is a plus.

They are too high. I wanted them out of Free Silvers tier because they actually do something (kill dragons). They should drop to somewhere in Mid. I would say around Jeorge.

Yubello to Low for being an auxillery Shaver user.

Because I don't have like 4 Archer slots, 3 Hunter slots, 2 Mage slots, a Dark Mage slot, and only one more chapter with Dracoknights (of which there are only 4) for the next half dozen or so chapters.

Frost is not in the appropriate tiers according to your rules.

When Frost joined, he had less Magic than Bishop Minerva.

Let that sink in. Bishop Minerva. A unit with a 0 for both Magic base and growth at 4 promoted.

His staff rank wasn't helping his case much either.

[Don Draper]

So I'm playing through the prologue again, and I discovered a few things:

1) Rody's lower base stats then Luke make a much bigger difference then I thought before
2) Merc My-Unit is neither good nor bad
3) Trying to get Ryan kills in regular Lunatic usually doesn't make very much sense

The first one makes me want to retract my previous support for Rody. He really is pretty terrible to use. At Level 4, he's essentially Base Luke and experience is relatively tight in the prologue. He really is awful.

[Sploosh]

That looks ok... until you realize that Cain has a good 30% Speed growth and 20% Def growth on Maris, as well as availability, lance rank, AND prologue. By the time you would have Maris, you already have a ton of units that do the same thing without having fail Def growth.

Well...maybe that's a terrible comparison...
But is she really worse than Bord, who only has an axe rank on her and gets doubled by everything? Athena only has 3 chapters of Prologue going for her; Maris comes earlier and rapes her base stats. And even units like Samto, Caesar, Matthis and Radd?

[dondon151]

The real question is, is it worth using Malice at all? Bord is super clutch in chapters 3 and 3x if you didn't have a fighter MU. Malice is clutch for nothing. In fact, using her in the long run will probably hurt more than it helps. Which is why Bord > Malice.

Edited by dondon151, 26 July 2010 - 12:28 PM.

[grandjackal]

The real question is, is it worth using Malice at all? Bord is super clutch in chapters 3 and 3x if you didn't have a fighter MU. Malice is clutch for nothing. Which is why Bord > Malice.

This would mean that Cain is ridiculously more clutch than Bord since he's a tier up on the guy. We're giving Cain mid tier for P-8?

[dondon151]

I haven't advanced far enough into the game yet, but if Cain can muster some sort of useful longevity, then Cain > Bord is justified.

What do people think about Curate Linde or Cecil? Compared to Wrys, aside from his Prologue, they rape him growth-wise and have chapters available before him. When he rejoins, they should have about the same staff rank, maybe even higher.

No one cares about healer growths. As for availability and staff rank after 3x, I have these concerns:

1. Wrys easily got D staves in P-7 or P-8 on my H3 playthrough. I know for a fact that Wrys fully used one of the Heal staves that you get in the prologue, which puts him at 40 staff WEXP at minimum.
2. Depending on your offense, Cecile can't afford to go mage in chapter 1. You get Malliesia after the initial rush anyway.
3. You'll also need all the offense that you can get in chapter 2. You will only have room for Malliesia.
4. You get Linde. My 17 turn strategy only has room for 1 staff user, which is... Malliesia.

So really, you have a staff user who is at best, halfway through E staves, against Wrys, who has D staves. And really, there is no point in using more than 2 staff users, so you might as well use the ones with the best staff rank.

EDIT: sorry for the double post.

Edited by Sirius, 26 July 2010 - 12:52 PM.

[grandjackal]

I haven't advanced far enough into the game yet, but if Cain can muster some sort of useful longevity, then Cain > Bord is justified.

My question is simply: By an entire tier? Because again, I don't see how being the boss slayer when axer MU is not in play for one chapter is losing to "Not much better than Est in P-8".

But hey, you're aware I could seal Malice with the speed orbs and she'd automatically be doubling Roro with 26 might thanks to Lady Sword. Taurus+Leo with a speed potion, she'd be ORKOing the non-boss ones. In the least, she's capable of cutting them to half health. Then again though, I'm not fully aware of how rare these potions are or not, but it's something she has over Cain since he cannot pull off the same since he has no way to match the Lady Sword's might. This carries over to the desert where she only needs the Leo orb to do the same to bandits. If over the course of time she's gotten 2 speed, she can double ice dragons naturally. From there, it obviously gets shaky.

Now obviously we could say to hell with that and just have the normal team do it, but I could say the same for Cain as well. Past prologue 8, what is it he's doing as to warrent mid tier? The answer is pretty much "not much more than Malice".

If we aren't going to raise Malice (which I could agree with on the basis of "we could have the normal team do it"), at least drop Cain to Bord's tier. Cain can still be>Bord there.

Edited by Etzel's Hips, 26 July 2010 - 12:50 PM.

[dondon151]

Then again though, I'm not fully aware of how rare these potions are or not, but it's something she has over Cain since he cannot pull off the same since he has no way to match the Lady Sword's might.

The potions are random and should not be assumed.

In any case, SM Cain has access to the Silver Sword. Whether a Silver Sword exists is a completely different question, which I don't know the answer to.

[Blutritter]

TOP TIER
Paola
Unit I created
Catria
Sheeda
Malliesia
Feena

HIGH TIER
Sirius
Luke
Linde
Marth
Yumina
Oguma
Rody
Navarre

ABOVE AVERAGE TIER
Arran
Athena
Cecil
Draug
Minerva
Barts
Cain
Wrys
Frey

AVERAGE TIER
Wendell
Julian
George
Castor
Etzel
Maric
Warren
Radd
Caesar
Yubello
Cord
Bord

BELOW AVERAGE TIER
Samto
Norne
Roger
Ryan
Mathis
Gordon
Ricardo
Banutu

My current impression after four units were promoted at 20/0. Reclass duly considered. No abuse, favoritism or stat booster/orb fragments involved. I don't intend this to be a decisive ranking by any means, but it carries weight for what's got to be half of the gameplay when most of your army is struggling to varying degrees and hardly self-sufficient, so........I wouldn't make haste to discount it.

dondon: Healer growths kind of matter. Also ties into how they're going to measure up after promotion.

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't reduce Dolph/Maccelan to "Free Silvers" tier, just because they have jointime utility (being forced) if absolutely nothing else.

A lot of people in that tier aren't forced at all, let alone for one chapter.

Speaking of utility, it's the exact same reason I'd put Cord above Matthis.

Edited by Cav!Gordin, 26 July 2010 - 01:04 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists. Want to suggest changes to THIS one? Sure, post here. Otherwise, keep that shit outta here.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 01:06 PM.

[grandjackal]

The potions are random and should not be assumed.

In any case, SM Cain has access to the Silver Sword. Whether a Silver Sword exists is a completely different question, which I don't know the answer to.

Well, we know that Lady Swords exist, and with the Leo+Taurus orb she's able to at least cut them in half. Then, she can ORKO bandits in the valley, and I would venture she could muster 2 speed within the 3 chapters before the frozen lands as to let her double ice dragons. Not sure if she'd need a forged wyrmslayer for that bit though.

Obviously that fits in the category "Nothing the main team isn't already doing", but I can at least measure her power out that far.

[Dat Nick]

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

Funny, I could swear I never said they were.

I said they had forced chapter utility. That's more than what anybody in the Free Silver tier has to offer. They should top that tier out if nothing else.

The potions are random and should not be assumed.

This is silly, you can't assume you're not getting ANY. I had a whole surplus of the damn things by the end of my run.

Speaking of, Radd above Cord? uh what? What's Radd doing so "High", in general?

Edited by Cav!Gordin, 26 July 2010 - 01:11 PM.