1028 replies to this topic

[Deliriyum]

I think everyone should be tiered based on the same stuff. The free silvers part of the list and the no contest part of the list should be integrated with the rest of the list.

[dondon151]

I said they had forced chapter utility. That's more than what anybody in the Free Silver tier has to offer. They should top that tier out if nothing else.

bblade, we're not going to bother arguing about semantics. Even if the units are "forced," you can do just fine without them, so they wouldn't get any credit. This is unlike, for example, Bord, whom you need for the C axe user. I don't think it's worth it to draw the distinction between "forced for one chapter or a fraction of a chapter but useless" and "not forced for any chapters and useless."

This is silly, you can't assume you're not getting ANY. I had a whole surplus of the damn things by the end of my run.

Now, now. For all we know, the tier player can play through the entire game flawlessly in 1 sitting. Since the random rewards are based on time in the real world, the chances of getting such an item are small.

Or, the player can abuse the random bonus system, spending days on each chapter. Should we account for that, and if we do, how do we come to a proper medium that is consistent?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

bblade, I'm assuming you didn't read the rules, because you're definitely not abiding by them.

Go read them and try again.

[grandjackal]

I would think the better argument against potions being something more than circumstantial would be that you are not even garunteed what kind of potion you would get in said bonus, since I could easily assume that the player isn't going to sit and play through the entire game in one sitting.

As for Lundgren and Big Mac...Yeah, not touching that one.

[Dat Nick]

Even if the units are "forced," you can do just fine without them, so they wouldn't get any credit.

Not the point. They're free contributions in their respective chapters. They can contribute more than idiots like Horace or whatever ever will.

You can do "just fine without them", but they're free unit slots, and free unit slots are free unit slots, so why wouldn't you take advantage of it? They can bait if absolutely nothing else. You know something? I'd seriously argue Dolph baiting/doing bad-ish counter damage before getting ORKOd by one guy is more useful than Radd's entire existence.

I don't think it's worth it to draw the distinction between "forced for one chapter or a fraction of a chapter but useless" and "not forced for any chapters and useless."

Worth what, exactly? Is it really that much effort to move Dolph and Macellan to the top of the Free Silver list?

And speaking of the free Silver list, I can agree that Nabarl>Malice, very easily, but I don't really understand the logic of one being usable (mid tier) and one not being usable (silver tier)

bblade, I'm assuming you didn't read the rules, because you're definitely not abiding by them.

- Units are tiered based on their ability to contribute to an effective team. Units that do not contribute, or contribute extremely poorly, are placed in Bottom Tier. The greater the unit's potential contribution, the higher the unit's tiering position.

Dolph contributes more to an effective team than Radd. Therefore, Dolph>Radd. What about the rules am I not abiding?

In fact, since you understand the rules so well, then surely you can explain to me how Radd is anywhere but the "I'm FE12, what is this?" tier?

Edited by Cav!Gordin, 26 July 2010 - 01:24 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Maybe you didn't read, because he is there?

Don't be a condescending fuckwit around here. I'm tired of it.

Read them again. You missed something fairly important, which pertains specifically to one of your earlier comments..

I'm FE12, what is this?
- Norne
- Samto
- Castor
- Bantu
- Caesar
- Radd
- Yubello
- Matthis
- Cord

Edited by Sirius, 26 July 2010 - 01:28 PM.

[Dat Nick]

Maybe you didn't read, because he is there?

Okay, maybe he is, but you still haven't explained how he>Cord, or even better, him>Malice.

Edited by Cav!Gordin, 26 July 2010 - 01:27 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

- Units in Bottom Tier and the special lists are not ordered. However, all other tiers are assumed to be ordered by level of contribution.

Make one more ignorant useless post here that is better answered by the rules or a little common sense and I'm done with you.

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 01:32 PM.

[Dat Nick]

Nah, since you just plug your ears and go "RULESET" when a unit is clearly better or worse than another, I'm the one who's done with you. You have fun tiering half the units in the game and ignoring the fact that some of the bottom half of the cast are more useless than others. You want me out, I'm out.

[dondon151]

I would think the better argument against potions being something more than circumstantial would be that you are not even garunteed what kind of potion you would get in said bonus, since I could easily assume that the player isn't going to sit and play through the entire game in one sitting.

The notion is not that farfetched. With the perfection of a certain strategy, you can basically play the game off a piece of paper if you wanted to. Of course, we haven't reached that point yet. But on like, FEDS, it's certainly possible.

Not the point. They're free contributions in their respective chapters. They can contribute more than idiots like Horace or whatever ever will.

If you complete a chapter in 12 turns with X unit and complete a chapter in 12 turns without X unit, then X unit didn't actually do anything.

Worth what, exactly? Is it really that much effort to move Dolph and Macellan to the top of the Free Silver list?

Turn your eyes off skim mode for a moment. Bottom tier and free silver tier are not ordered.

And speaking of the free Silver list, I can agree that Nabarl>Malice, very easily, but I don't really understand the logic of one being usable (mid tier) and one not being usable (silver tier)

Navarre joins 4 chapters earlier than Malice, with virtually the same base stats. He has superior growths. The caliber of enemy units seems to grow very quickly in midgame, so the 4 chapter join time lead is significant.

[Blutritter]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists.

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4
Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

[grandjackal]

The notion is not that farfetched. With the perfection of a certain strategy, you can basically play the game off a piece of paper if you wanted to. Of course, we haven't reached that point yet. But on like, FEDS, it's certainly possible.

Well yeah, that's because half of FEDS is basically "Warp boss killer, kill boss, Warp Marth, take throne" halfway through it. This game, actual fighting has to be done. In the least, it takes significantly longer time to complete the chapters as they come.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Nah, since you just plug your ears and go "RULESET" when a unit is clearly better or worse than another, I'm the one who's done with you. You have fun tiering half the units in the game and ignoring the fact that some of the bottom half of the cast are more useless than others. You want me out, I'm out.

There's a distinct difference between me plugging my ears and you simply not bothering to read the OP of a goddamn tier list, because not only did you miss the fact that Radd was in the exact tier you wanted him in, you made arguments based on the idea that Bottom was ordered (the rules state it isn't) and that being forced deployment gives units a free pass out of being useless.

I never said that characters in Free Silvers are lower than Bottom, I said that there has to be an explicit reason that a Free Silvers unit will be at least in Low or Mid in order to even bother trying to tier them. You made these assumptions, and now you're the one plugging your ears.

Have fun not participating in the tier list. "And nothing of value was lost."

Back to the actual point, which is not a bunch of meta argument bullshit!

GJ's argument for Maris has convinced me. I'm going to be making a couple changes soon, including:

- Tiki/Nagi immediately below Jeorge
- Rody to top of Low
- Maris immediately below Rody near top of Low- I want to preserve the tier gap between her and Navarre, but she has utility and some potential longevity.
- Palla to bottom of Top
- Arran to bottom of High
- Sirius to above Luke but below Shiida
- Merric above Jeorge

Feel free to argue for/against any of these changes.

Also, new rule: Potions are not assumed.

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 01:57 PM.

[Don Draper]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.



OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4
Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

WTF, Mallessia is NOT going to be 20/1 by Chapter 9. No fucking way. Paperblade had her at 13/0 by that time, and even then he took chapters much more slowly due to not having any foresight (he was the first person on the board to play through all of Lunatic). Therefore her level should realistically be lower, probably around 11/0 by that time.

Edited by Ari Gold, 26 July 2010 - 01:56 PM.

[arvilino]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists. Want to suggest changes to THIS one? Sure, post here. Otherwise, keep that shit outta here.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

I think Mallesia is actually healer(and the only one) that should be promoted. Her 40% magic growth rate and 60% speed growth as a cleric gives her 15.4 speed and 10.4 magic at level 20. Thats 14 magic and 16 speed as a 20/1 Sage(plus her Magic growths boosts to 50% at this point). Infact since she can use the Shaver and Nosferatu upon promotion, with the A rank in staffs she'll have by that point. To me she warrants a Master Seal more than Merric does if you didn't have to use him.

[dondon151]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.

SDS consulted with me, Paperblade, IOS, and Colonel M in #feto for this list. I can assure you, we've probably put more thought into this list than you have into yours, considering it's, you know, 5 people to 1.

OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4
Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

I don't know what kinds of turtling strategies you employ, but you are falling into the same trap that early FEDS tier list debaters did: healers do not level quickly under the assumption of efficient play. Furthermore, the gains from promoting healers are minimal. They have 6 move compared to promoted 7-8 move for most foot units and 10 move for paladins, FKs, and DKs. Good luck blitzing with general equivalent move.

Edited by dondon151, 26 July 2010 - 01:58 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's not half-cocked, snot. For 50% game clear, it looks more sensible than your half-assed attempt. Hey, you're bringing it on yourself.



OK, what is this bullshit? I don't know if you've noticed, but healers level quickly even without trying to drag out any chapters. When holding a defense on the bridges at both sides of the fort vs. promoted enemies on chapter 8 while trying to rout them efficiently (except Astram, I suppose), lots of healing is appreciated. Dancing plus vulneraries isn't going to suffice.

Desert mage: 28/0/12/13/13/0/4/4
Malliesia 20/1: 34/1/13/10/17/20/9/13

Her level could be viably higher. ORKO with 5 might Fire vs. 3RKO by Volcannon. As a bishop. When you have lots of people at single-digit or near zero HP after a counter. Furthermore, can go a round with a dragon knight from a swarm before and still live. No need for cover or to go hide away from the main group.

@Blutritter: Let's just go down the list and point out the first 3 issues that I have with your lists:

1: Malliesia 20/1 by Ch8? What planet do you live on?
2: Rody in high above Draug? Rody is literally worse at everything compared to Cav!Draug.
3: Navarre in high? Above Arran? Above Frey?

In fact, let's go a little farther.

Caesar/Radd not in bottom?
Warren above Ryan, despite the fact that he is literally worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY?

[arvilino]

This isn't the place to post your half-cocked cooked up tier lists. Want to suggest changes to THIS one? Sure, post here. Otherwise, keep that shit outta here.

Also, healers aren't promoting. At least, they shouldn't be, and even after they do, it's not like they're seeing any real combat.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, Dolph/Macellan are forced. Doesn't mean they're good and/or even marginally acceptable at any point in time.

I think Mallesia is actually healer(and the only one) that should be promoted. Her 40% magic growth rate and 60% speed growth as a cleric gives her 15.4 speed and 10.4 magic at level 20. Thats 14 magic and 16 speed as a 20/1 Sage(plus her Magic growths boosts to 50% at this point). Infact since she can use the Shaver and Nosferatu upon promotion, with the A rank in staffs she'll have by that point. To me she warrants a Master Seal more than Merric does if you didn't have to use him.

WTF, Mallessia is NOT going to be 20/1 by Chapter 9. No fucking way. Paperblade had her at 13/0 by that time, and even then he took chapters much more slowly due to not having any foresight (he was the first person on the board to play through all of Lunatic). Therefore her level should realistically be lower, probably around 11/0 by that time.

She wouldn't be that low. I had her at 20 by the end of Chapter 10 and promoted her just before the start of 10x.

[Don Draper]

She wouldn't be that low. I had her at 20 by the end of Chapter 10 and promoted her just before the start of 10x.

Again, this tier list isn't assuming turtling strategies with ridiculously high turncounts. Healers are not realistically leveling quickly in a low turncount playthrough.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Well this list actually looks pretty good. Not perfect of course but for a base framework it's pretty good. Can't argue to much considering I haven't played the game. I like the free silvers tier. Very smart of you to just throw all non viable characters into one tier and just say no. I would move the healers/my unit tier to the absolute top since it gives the impression that their bad to idiots who might come reading this topic.

Prevents useless debates that contribute nothing to efficiency.

Edited by Mr. Francis York Morgan, 26 July 2010 - 02:09 PM.