1028 replies to this topic

[grandjackal]

Aura as far as I know, doesn't OHKO Dracoknights.

Because as we know, that's the only thing that matters. Think of it this way, it doesn't one shot dracos, but it is the next best thing and comes for free. What, we just gonna not use it? You would be saving uses on that absolutely silly forge, and you wouldn't have to worry about doing these weird-ass tradechains for chapter 3.

Then we have everything else, to which Aura is still superior to (power, accuracy). In fact, didn't part of the 6x strat involve hitting Roro with that forge, which was stupid to do due to accuracy? Aura could do the same thing without that problem if Linde is up and proper for it. (Though I'm pretty sure there's like a hundred and one ways to 1 turn 6x, but whatever).

[Colonel M]

Linde would have to be the one to kill Roro, which is a big Nono, though.

[grandjackal]

Linde would have to be the one to kill Roro, which is a big Nono, though.

Why is that? Does Roro give this all important level to someone that they instantly go to shit without it? Does it kill turns later? No? then who cares who gets it?

I would have said something else, but then I saw that roro has 17 speed and Linde would have had to get 5 speed. I mean, with Rainbw Potion it would only need to be 3, but seriously RP in 6x?

By the way, I 3 turned P-7 Cain, and have found a...Somewhat reliable way to do it consistantly. Issue is it relies on a cav, and they need to be able to live, not get doubled, and do 9 damage to Cain.

EDIT EDIT: Another way for Linde to help with Roro without taking the kill: Rezire. Only issue is, I dunno what level to expect out of her by now.

suppose I'll check in my current playthrough.

Edited by grandjackal, 24 June 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[Colonel M]

You really should aim to choke boss CEXP to Sirius or even others like Palla. Sirius's main reason is his CEXP gain is kind of limited with all the unpromoted mooks still running around.

As for Cain... Not getting doubled and doing 9 damage as a Cavalier... I think only a MU can do that. I can't view spoiler tags on my phone for some reason, but doesn't Cain have like 11-12 Spd? If so, Luke needs two Spd procs, but I'm guessing it puts P-8 into a 10 turn, unless I missed something.

[grandjackal]

You really should aim to choke boss CEXP to Sirius or even others like Palla. Sirius's main reason is his CEXP gain is kind of limited with all the unpromoted mooks still running around.

As for Cain... Not getting doubled and doing 9 damage as a Cavalier... I think only a MU can do that. I can't view spoiler tags on my phone for some reason, but doesn't Cain have like 11-12 Spd? If so, Luke needs two Spd procs, but I'm guessing it puts P-8 into a 10 turn, unless I missed something.

You only really need 1 HP, Speed and Def, the HP and Def prior to the chapter, the speed at least during. The Def is the only really annoying part. If you happen to be powering Luke early, then this shouldn't even be a problem outside of crap luck.

The other thing is Ryan needs a point in Strength, or Luke does. If either gets it, then cool. The real difficult part is Fighter MU surviving a Myrm and an Archer. I was Def blessed (like level 7 with 6 Def, or level 6), but my build wasn't intending for it (I tend to go speed future rather than present, opting for Mighty present instead. Issue being that I'm not 100% sure I had the actual stats to back up the claim). If the usual Def is 3, then I think I had enough...

How to do it: Maric and Ryan attack the Armor over the river, Luke attacks it from the space north of it with an Iron Lance (thus the Str proc form him or Ryan, Ryan preferred). Shiida does her usual thing with the Myrm. Athena takes the space just 1 north of Maric, with MU a space south of Maric.

MU does super effective damage to the Armor, Luke kills the myrm (getting his level off it, for me anyways since I was powering Ryan) and takes a hit from the archer (thus why the Def and HP).

Athena kills the north Archer, Luke occupies a northern fort that lets him attack Cain the next turn while downing a vuln. Ryan kills the Knight (thus why the Str is preferred on him rather than Luke). MU moves face first against the Myrm and downs a vuln with Steel equipped, Maric blasting with fire. Shiida takes to a fort near Cain.

The Myrm kills himself, then the Archer attacks.

Next turn, MU with Maric or Ryan clean up the archer, then Shiida and Athena deal damage to Cain, Luke coming in for the kill (now thinking about it, the speed isn't necessary if you're feeding the kill to Luke, nor is the vulnery). Otherwise, the kill can go to either him, Shiida or Athena. There is your 3 turn.

As for Sirius, I recall dondon saying something like Sirius isn't exactly long term or something to that effect. You could if you want, but it's plenty of trouble. As for Palla, her problem merely is that she doesn't have a Wing.

Besides that thought process, I'mma give Linde a spin this time around. Wanna see what her level will be for it, because if too slow for Aura she could always use Rezire if that would work instead.

That does remind me of something though. If one is to seriously use her, there is always the option of just buying the Spirit Dusts from the base shop and then throwing it at her. Early on, we have but a forge to spend money on, and if it's +4 then we got plenty more to get all 3 dusts and then some. Silly? Of course, but it's also out the gate with 29 magic damage. On top of insane chip, it lets her one shot some lesser durability enemies like thieves, hunters, mages, etc, or it lets her syphon back 18 damage with Rezire if so desired.

By the way, anyone tried Horseman Arran for chapter 1? Works surprisingly well, thanks to enemy AI being rock stupid in that chapter. Also, is it agreed that MU gets the Bond Drop? Because he totally should.

[Colonel M]

Dropping Sirius can be done, but doing so makes Final a lot harder since Sirius has to survive a Dragon. Either that, or use Minerva. Sirius isn't as bad ass as Caeda, but he still gets the job done usually if you force levels through him. Best way is to have him nab as many bosskills as possible and, of course, kill some Dragons. I doubt any Horseman can even boast B Swords, which does help when fighting enemies up close (and I have done this before). Horseman is also pretty slick for the last couple chapters.

[grandjackal]

Well in honesty, I was kinda confused when he said that Sirius isn't long term. So, I suppose I gotta see what level Linde will be by chapter 6x. I'll be back with results.

EDIT: Seems I could get her to 10-11, but according to SDS I was underusing her as I had gone about things differently. I used all 3 base Dusts (figured she was my Gharnef killer, she was getting them eventually anyways) instead of a Robe. I was getting more kills out of stuff like one shotting Hunters, Thieves and Mages with Aura while he was dicking around with Rezire.

I would estimate that if she had 3 Dusts and a Robe, she'd be like level 12 for Roro, which just barely kinda maybe avoids the double without a potion.

However, that's also like 10K on one unit which is pretty unreasonable, so...Yeah.

Edited by grandjackal, 29 June 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[grandjackal]

Was told as an unspoken rule that tier lists could be revived at any time by Red Fox, but regardless I am sorry for the double post.

Anyways, kinda wanted to mention a strat for P-6 that is a 2 turn, P-7 that is a 3 turn, and P-8 which is a 7 turn. This strat requires Ryan, meaning not Luke or Rody or others aside from the likes of Shiida, Maric, MU, Athena.

P-6 (Ogma) is simple. Maric and Ryan shoot the northern fighter, of which Athena or MU kills, and then the other goes to kill the northern archer while Shiida goes in front of the southern fighter to make herself a juicy target. Ogma should go for whoever is at the bridge be it Athena or MU (I've had MU kill the archer and Ogma goes for Athena, but if that doesn't work, you can have Athena kill the archer, and Ogma still goes after MU on the bridge. Espinosa can back me up on this), Cav goes for whoever killed the archer as they're the only available target. Ryan and Maric shoot Ogma and MU finishes off, Shiida flies over to kill the cav, and Athena deals a finishing blow to the fighter as she's the only one who can.

P-7 Est (Why Est? Well, until someone can 7 turn P-8 with Cain...). Basically Ryan moves all the spaces he can in order to reach Est by turn 3, which allows him a free potshot at the north fighter, to which Maric can help chip, and Athena kills, Ogma blocking the south chokepoint to block the mercenary, Shiida chipping the mercenary up top and MU finishing. MU takes a shot from an archer, the other archer should move north, and Ogma hits the Merc on enemy phase. Uhh...I forget if the free archer moves north or south actually, because I recall Athena should kill it. I think south so Athena can kill it while Ogma blocks off the merc so that she can attack the fighter on enemy phase. Either way, Shiida attacks the archer near her and Maric finishes (don't want the merc killing him), MU healing on a fort while Ryan moves towards Est. Following turn is pretty simple. Can have MU chip Est and then Ryan kills with the steel bow, vice versa so MU gets the kill, or can use the more accurate Iron so that Shiida can get the kill as she's in range.

P-8 is long winded. Team is Est/MU/Maric/Ogma/Athena/Ryan/Shiida. Yes, no Wrys. Anyways, Marth pulls the left bandit and hunter, Ogma the right side while you postion Est and Shiida so that the only other target for the 2 thieves is MU (and they go after him, or at least they should). Marth kills a thief, as does Ryan, or Est because either Est or Ryan have to kill Marth's bandit after help form Maric. Ogma kills his hunter and Shiida finishes his bandit, and Athena should move behind Marth's hunter to kill, MU retreats to the throne and uses a vulnery so he'll be full healthnext turn.. Athena pulls the silver bandit, and all hell breaks loose. The point of moving Athena n that specific spot is so you have 3 extra spaces to hide your Pegasi and other unit, while MU can stand a space away from the mage's attack range to buy more space for Marth and Ryan. Ogma heals up on the throne, Maric stands in range of the hand axe bandit (although if you have trained Ryan and he doesn't get doubled, I actually suggest he be in that position instead). Athena retreats to heal up of course. The silver bandit suicides into MU, and now the 2 thieves and mages are in your sights, and you have Ogma, Est and Shiida at full health along with an archer and Maric to deal with this problem. The chapter is pretty self explanitory form here, but the turn you save should be the same turn you kill the last thief reinforcements. I had Athena in range, and she doesn't need to heal for the last turn so I suggest you have Athena save (Shiida and Est need to be in range to pull the last thieves, and at least about 16 HP, so use heals if necssary). MU needs to be above 25 HP to not get smoked by Katarina as he will be killing her. Ogma should be at HP to take a hit, as well as Maric (For a levin thief) Shiida can possibly ORKO her silver thief, so check if you can. Mop up from there should be simple, though notably Athena has to kill a thief herself.

MU build to note was Male Cavalier with Speed past, Strenght Present, HP future.

Why mention these strats? Because they are the lowest turns that I know of, and it means Luke isn't there to garner levels. Ryan believe can do at least P-6 and 7 at base, Ryan having to be more reliant on Steel for P-8 if you're going that route, so I'm not suggesting you have t put levels into Ryan before anyone jumps to that conclusion. This hurts Luke immensely, since he no longer gets the early exp he was supposed to get.

For Ryan though, it does also mean he gets a bit more credit out of prologue. While I'm talking about Ryan, in the event you do train him, I've at least gotten him to level 6 with C rank while doing this. With Rainbow Potion and Steel, he can still lower enemies low enough in chapter 1 to allow Luke to get kills anyways, this time without worry of counters. Level 7 is possible by chapter 2, so as a Hunter with rainbow, he only needs a +3 Forge instead of +4 to one shot Dracoknights, saving us a nice chunk of gold. However, I'm still kinda testing Ryan out so I don't have anything solid yet for thelikes of chapter 1 and 2 and so forth, but I guess I can say expect that in the future.

The main focus here is Luke, and the fact that his early levels dissapoofs. Thoughts?

Also, if anyone can match these turns with guys like Luke, etc, I would love to see it.

[Tyrant Sage]

Grandjackal I don't think the tier list is assuming the absolute minimum turncounts every time, meaning that Luke and Rody can still get their early exp.

Also what exactly are you arguing for? Are you pushing for Ryan to be above Luke? Are you pushing for Luke to move down?

[grandjackal]

Grandjackal I don't think the tier list is assuming the absolute minimum turncounts every time, meaning that Luke and Rody can still get their early exp.

Also what exactly are you arguing for? Are you pushing for Ryan to be above Luke? Are you pushing for Luke to move down?

Notably, Luke going down. Generally, if we're going by the ideal of "not necessarily lowest turncount", I would say he would probably be around...high mid? In that he's obviously solid, but he doesn't necessarily move things along faster while at the same time not slowing us down any. Like I'm in chapter 2, and I can see I don't need Luke to be at levels to get like a 6-7 turn (and I have to wonder how people 6 turn this chapter as it requires Marth to be in a suicidally stupid position to get to the throne in time).

EDIT: like above Linde/below Ryan, around that range.

Been also trying to go through prologue with going chapters to get like Gordon, Draug, etc. I think a 3 turn of P-4 George is possible...Just need a specific enemy position to just happen.

Edited by grandjackal, 17 December 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[Espinosa]

Isn't an efficient choice of MU somewhat influential upon how much experience the rest of the characters get in the Prologue chapters? For example, an Archer MU has to rely on other units moreso than the other MUs, which makes Ryan/Luke/Rody better as they end up growing more. Similarly, Knight MU really slows down the completion of P-2 (can't make the AI attack MU instead of Ryan because of the defence difference and therefore no counter on enemy phase).

[grandjackal]

Isn't an efficient choice of MU somewhat influential upon how much experience the rest of the characters get in the Prologue chapters? For example, an Archer MU has to rely on other units moreso than the other MUs, which makes Ryan/Luke/Rody better as they end up growing more. Similarly, Knight MU really slows down the completion of P-2 (can't make the AI attack MU instead of Ryan because of the defence difference and therefore no counter on enemy phase).

Well yeah. Lke with Myrm or Fighter MU I tend to find that MU gets a lopsided amount of exp. Cav MU is one of the more flexible since you naturally just kinda have +2 speed after P-2 due to the nature of how Cav MU short turns them. After that though, like with P-3 you're pretty free on how you distribute exp. Like, I've gone into P-4 with a level 4 MU, or I got a level on Ryan, or Rody. Luke I think could get a level too, r be near enough one that he can manipulate one in P-4 anyways.

[Bluedoom]

I know I argued for this earlier, but I feel Ogma should move up to the bottom of Upper Mid. Whether he is better than Leidine/Virgil(forgot who's at the bottom of Upper Mid curently) is arguable, but Ogma is certainly better than most of the other guys in Lower Mid.

First off, let's assume we do NOT use Ogma in Prologue. See, the nice thing about him is the fact that he can double the pirates in C4 at BASE with a rainbow potion. If you do use him in prologue, getting two lvls is very reasonable, because in my lunatic draft I'm playing(MY TCs are decent but nowhere near an LTC lol) I kinda LTC'd prologue until P8, and my Ogma at the end of Prologue was at Lvl 9.99. You could say I should've done P8 a bit faster, which means cut of maybe 3-4 turns at most, but even then Ogma,thena and MU are doing the most fighting. So its possible to have a 15 Spd Ogma who doubles everything on chapter 4(bar the boss) without the RP, and 14 Spd is possible on average. But he surely doubles everything at base with an RP, so luck usually plays no factor.

In C4 most of the time you're gonna be rescuing someone to help with the rush near Ogma's group, so its very much possible for Ogma to use the RP if the rescued person has the RP in his inventory. No doubts over here. In my draft I rescued SM MU but maybe it costs too many turns. In any case Ogma is very much usable if he can double stuff. Especially the hunters.

In C5 Myrmidon! Ogma doubles everything except the Sniper near the boss, and if he got a spd proc, then with an RP he can double the sniper too(its not really needed though IMO) Those bases look good on him right now.

In C6 Ogma can double the knights without a spd proc as a myrmidon, and needs a spd proc as a merc(basically, anything above 13 spd). With 17 spd as a myrmidon he can double even the mages(not like you're ever gonna do that with him). This is awesome because he can use the armourslayer, and yeah, an armourslayer user who can double is awesome. I believe only Luke could pull off something like that, but it depends on him having C swords and having similar stats to Ogma(in my draft Cecille is lvl 9 and she's still stuck with D swords so yeah)

Finally in C8 as long as he has sufficient spd, he can double the generals with an armourslayer(if you trained him he'll usually have enough) This is better than whatever Cain and Frey can do, and DEFINITELY Roger.

Roger's base spd as a myrmidon is 18 but he has E swords and a trained Ogma can usually match that along with having possibly B swords. Not only that but Roger needs a couple of levels until promotion while Ogma at that point can promote. So Roger is out.

Cain's base spd is the same as Ogma's but he has better lance rank and comes 4 chapters later. Don't see how he's winning anything over here.

Frey isn't ever competing with Ogma wrt sword ranks, and comes at lvl 8. He can't even use an armourslayer. And before you say Dragonpike, Wyrmslayer exists.

So Navarre is the only actual competition to Ogma. He comes with similar growths, same weapon rank, but has better bases. Well, you had C 4,5 and 6 and possibly prologue to use Ogma, so that's situational. Ogma has better availability and therefore wins. Oh and Tiki comes late and her bases are horrible but I guess its for dragon slaying? Still pretty late though : S

Long story short- Ogma's solid bases at join time and earlier availability make him better than the other growth units that are in his same slot. If in my draft he could gain 7 lvls, the in an LTC it could be reduced to 4-5. That's still good enough to give him the statistical advantage over the other units and therefore, I think he should be moved to Upper Mid below Leiden/Virgil.

[-Cynthia-]

Isn't an efficient choice of MU somewhat influential upon how much experience the rest of the characters get in the Prologue chapters? For example, an Archer MU has to rely on other units moreso than the other MUs, which makes Ryan/Luke/Rody better as they end up growing more. Similarly, Knight MU really slows down the completion of P-2 (can't make the AI attack MU instead of Ryan because of the defence difference and therefore no counter on enemy phase).

This is true- Luke is a lot more useful with a weaker MU than he is with a stronger one. Since the list doesn't seem to assume a specific MU, Luke's peoisiton might be warranted.

[dondon151]

Isn't an efficient choice of MU somewhat influential upon how much experience the rest of the characters get in the Prologue chapters?

yes, but it doesn't affect their tier position

let's say that luke is worse because MU is better. that also means that rody gets worse as well. cecile too, but slightly less so. so luke > rody > cecile is preserved. and there's a couple of units in between, but draug also gets worse (draug blows anyway) and minerva probably doesn't even deserve to be in that tier. she's so bad on this difficulty.

[Paperblade]

Well yeah. Lke with Myrm or Fighter MU I tend to find that MU gets a lopsided amount of exp. Cav MU is one of the more flexible since you naturally just kinda have +2 speed after P-2 due to the nature of how Cav MU short turns them. After that though, like with P-3 you're pretty free on how you distribute exp. Like, I've gone into P-4 with a level 4 MU, or I got a level on Ryan, or Rody. Luke I think could get a level too, r be near enough one that he can manipulate one in P-4 anyways.

You can't just assume units are getting RNG blessed because that's what they need to be on par with alternatives

[grandjackal]

You can't just assume units are getting RNG blessed because that's what they need to be on par with alternatives

It's a single point of speed of "being blessed", sine you love to cry over spilt milk over it. A very easy to control issue since P-1 and 2 you basically can't screw up.

Besides, currently we consider Fighter MU the best. Getting this innocent point is peanuts compared Fighter having a much wider chance of missing generally anything.

[Paperblade]

I don't consider Fighter the best for that very reason

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Quick note: Prologue turncounts don't count since they lean exceedingly on the performance of MU to be reasonable. This doesn't mean we're going nuts and taking 15 turns on every prologue chapter to get perfect stuff, but I don't think that "luke down because specific mu does specific thing" is valid. Also, this is the best way to actually validate "no specific mu is assumed", since some of the less effective MUs are going to get absolutely wrecked in Prologue. Whether they're terrible in the rest of the game is another story.

This is similar to saying that while Lyn Mode performance is discounted in FE7, we still assume it's played and that its benefits are available to characters equally reasonably.

(ooh ooh does this mean we can finally drop Athena into free silvers?)

I'd also like to point out how much I like HORSEBIRD's post here. The amount of EXP given to non-MU units is inversely proportional to how much MU can take for himself, but in general it hurts all prologue characters about evenly. I happen to disagree on Draug and Minerva, but that's a question for another post.

[Peekayell]

I find Draug awful in H3. Minerva is useful because of Dragonpike, Hammer and Hauteclere but shes also kinda awful beyond that.