1028 replies to this topic

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

The main issue that Paperblade had with Michalis is that he has 2 luk against 15-20 enemy crit. When you risk a 1 in 7 to 1 in 6 chance to die against any enemy attack... that's bad. This is compounded by the fact that he only has Maria to give +cev, but Maria only appears in the final chapter.

That is bad... for his durability. But the thing is he isn't dieing 100% of the time like the others in free silvers. When he isn't getting crit provided he is in the right class at full health he can usually survive. He can still function on the team until he gets crit. He has high enough strength that he can finish many enemies off. Great weapon ranks to. A weapon scroll can instantly get him to B ranks in either swords as a swordmaster or bows as a sniper. Edit: What I mean is he already has B and A as a draco for axes/lances respectively. One extra weapon scroll just gives him more variety in weapons to wield.

He's gonna be a pain in the ass to tier though because of the crit/enemies all having 40+ in might at that point in the game. This pretty much means any enemy can pull a one shot on michalis at any point. Basically he can never frontline. We could find a use for him as a finisher though.

Edited by Mr. Francis York Morgan, 26 July 2010 - 03:03 PM.

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

One of the strategies I like to use in Fire Emblem is stats boosters. What I mean by that is save the stats boosters for characters that you KNOW can't be RNG raped so to speak. You can use stats boosts early on, but that still doesn't guarantee a character will grow exactly as you expect them to. So what I would do in this case is save whatever luck boosters I can get and use them on Michalis when I get him. His other stats are high enough to not have to worry about RNG rape.

That said, it is a loophole and shouldn't be factored into pure stats rankings.

[Liquid Snake]

The question I have I this: why the hell are we making tier lists when I'm pretty sure we don't even have all the growths figured out yet? It's hard to tell what's PE and what's fact when we don't know averages.

[dondon151]

We don't have class growths figured out yet. We have the assumption that the class growths are virtually identical, within a 5% margin of error, to SD's class growths. Even if we are 5% off, the differential is 1 point every ~20 levels. Not significant.

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

The question I have I this: why the hell are we making tier lists when I'm pretty sure we don't even have all the growths figured out yet? It's hard to tell what's PE and what's fact when we don't know averages.

We don't?

*checks*

Oh, I see. The class growths aren't there yet. I was too busy looking at the character growths. Vincent hasn't found them yet, huh? They might be the same as the previous game though, but class growths are still young and we don't know whether IS would change them between games. If they did change them, then yeah, we're way too early to be talking tiers. We don't even know WTF the Dancer class looks like to determine anything about Feena.

[Paperblade]

I'm aware. Hero if for whatever reason he can't level up and get the SPD needed to avoid being double by 28 or 29 SPD enemies. I haven't looked at how fast people level up in those last chapters. 3 SPD level ups or a Speedwing and a SPD level up to avoid being doubled.... Speed potion if you wanna go that far.

Ch. 22-24 enemies consist of

Capped Spd Zerkers (28) also with capped Str (giving them 47-48 atk)
Capped Spd SMs (30) also with capped Str
Capped Spd Sorcs (25, they get up to... 42 attack with Glower, nearly 40 with Meteor)
Magedragons (23-24)
Fire Dragons (26 in 22, 27+ in 23)
Flying Dragons (29)
Ice Dragons (26)

The Flying and Ice only appear in Ch. 24. Leaving out Earth because they die to Shield of Seals.

Edited by Paperblade, 26 July 2010 - 03:08 PM.

[Blutritter]

"Physical units are incredibly more versatile than magic units."

There's a reason I'm not campaigning Malliesia for number 1 character here, though she has an option to heal herself without vulneraries. Just among the units who prefer to stay magical Wrys, etc. never has that. And healing in general still contributes greatly because physical units like to get hit due to the Akaneian games' sorry avoid formula. More often than not, they get hit hard (most certainly before promotion with enemies packing silver galore) or have to knock down their dph with ranged weaponry whereas magical units can opt not to receive counters often and even eliminate the need for the physical units to be damaged on the player phase (setup for finishers). At any rate, EXP yielded by staves is still a lot higher accumulated or not for an individual unit than from combat, which translates into faster levels.

[Sirius]

Ch. 22-24 enemies consist of

Capped Spd Zerkers (28) also with capped Str (giving them 47-48 atk)
Capped Spd SMs (30) also with capped Str
Capped Spd Sorcs (25, they get up to... 42 attack with Glower, nearly 40 with Meteor)
Magedragons (23-24)
Fire Dragons (26 in 22, 27+ in 23)
Flying Dragons (29)
Ice Dragons (26)

The Flying and Ice only appear in Ch. 24. Leaving out Earth because they die to Shield of Seals.

Bummer. How difficult is the battle prep arena? If it isn't too difficult, the Brave Axe could help him get a couple level ups in the arena since consecutive battles result in boosted EXP gain

1st battle = EXP in the 30s
2nd battle = EXP in the 50s
3rd battle = EXP in the 80s
4th and on = 100 EXP.

Well, that's how it is for Normal mode anyway, haven't checked out Lunatic's arena.

Edited by Sirius, 26 July 2010 - 03:16 PM.

[Gemini-Saga]

Promoting Healers give the Mag advantage on using Heal and Physic staffs, and you can class Swap to Sage to get Extra Mag...

Well I did that.

[Paperblade]

Bummer. How difficult is the battle prep arena? If it isn't too difficult, the Brave Axe could help him get a couple level ups in the arena since consecutive battles result in boosted EXP gain

1st battle = EXP in the 30s
2nd battle = EXP in the 50s
3rd battle = EXP in the 80s
4th and on = 100 EXP.

Not that hard iirc, since enemies generally don't have forged Silver in it.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

"Physical units are incredibly more versatile than magic units."

There's a reason I'm not campaigning Malliesia for number 1 character here, though she has an option to heal herself without vulneraries. Just among the units who prefer to stay magical Wrys, etc. never has that. And healing in general still contributes greatly because physical units like to get hit due to the Akaneian games' sorry avoid formula. More often than not, they get hit hard (most certainly before promotion with enemies packing silver galore) or have to knock down their dph with ranged weaponry whereas magical units can opt not to receive counters often and even eliminate the need for the physical units to be damaged on the player phase (setup for finishers). At any rate, EXP yielded by staves is still a lot higher accumulated or not for an individual unit than from combat, which translates into faster levels.

No. This has been said enough. No. Staff utility is useful yes, experience gain being larger is a big fat no on the other hand. In speedruns the experience tend to build to the level up much slower than on normal runs.

Don't bring it up again.

Edited by Mr. Francis York Morgan, 26 July 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[Blutritter]

Promoting Healers give the Mag advantage on using Heal and Physic staffs, and you can class Swap to Sage to get Extra Mag...

Well I did that.

True true, higher numbers are always welcome ASAP. The extra resistance a bishop has, ditto.

No. This has been said enough. No. Staff utility is useful yes, experience gain being larger is a big fat no on the other hand. In speedruns the experience tends to be alot less gained than normally.

Don't bring it up again.

I guess you can't be reasoned with. Or won't?

Physic = 40
Rescue, Hammerne, Thief = 50

I've seen units who flail to equal any of the above by downing some promoted enemy, like a general. I'd sooner dance a healer than a melee unit because often the scenario dictates the melee is beat up - and in fact, there's going to be more than one of said melee.

I distinctly thought this wasn't being looked at through a speedrunning lens. Just not exceeding 5-30 turns depending on the chapter. I didn't even field a healer in 6 gaiden.

Somebody needs to make up their mind, quit kowtowing to some backroom message chat consensus they may have been part of or not.

Edited by Blutritter, 26 July 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[Ninji]

In speedruns the experience tend to build to the level up much slower than on normal runs.

Nitpicking, but efficient run =/= speed run.

[General Spoon]

Somebody needs to make up their mind, quit kowtowing to some backroom message chat consensus they may have been part of or not.

I don't see what the holy hell is the problem. Its not like anybody's going to tell you "No, you can't hang around #feto because you're a dumbass." Stop trying to force your goddamn way of doing things on everybody else; nobody wants to listen to that shit. As for the second point:

- Reasoning behind a character’s positioning will be provided upon request in the early stages of this tier list.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

True true, higher numbers are always welcome ASAP. The extra resistance a bishop has, ditto.



I guess you can't be reasoned with. Or won't?

Physic = 40
Rescue, Hammerne, Thief = 50

I've seen units who flail to equal any of the above by downing some promoted enemy, like a general. I'd sooner dance a healer than a melee unit because often the scenario dictates the melee is beat up - and in fact, there's going to be more than one of said melee.

I distinctly thought this wasn't being looked at through a speedrunning lens. Just not exceeding 5-30 turns depending on the chapter. I didn't even field a healer in 6 gaiden.

Somebody needs to make up their mind, quit kowtowing to some backroom message chat consensus they may have been part of or not.

Speedrunning/Efficiency are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

Also those psychic staves aren't going to be spammable. We may have extra uses aside from what is just necessary to beat the game with but we can't just go saying "HEY THE MOST EFFICIENT USE OF THE WARP STAVES IS TO SPAM IT 7 turns in a row so MALLESIA can gain 4 level ups in a chapter!" We are gonna need that warp to skip x amount of chapters.

Edit: Or in non warp skip, we can use the warp to draw off specific enemies for quicker turn clears.

Rescue may be integral to beating some chapter in x amount of turns, Hammerne will be integral to beating the game at max speed, thief will also be highly useful due to the open any chest from anywhere thing it's got going. The stave experience may exist but how do we know Mallesia and the other stave users won't be forced to save them all up for endgame? We need more time to hammer out the efficient strategies for this game.

Edited by Mr. Francis York Morgan, 26 July 2010 - 03:57 PM.

[dondon151]

True true, higher numbers are always welcome ASAP. The extra resistance a bishop has, ditto.

Higher numbers? You mean how move goes from 7 to 10 for most units? Or how viable class builds go from 1 or 2 to up to 7? Or how every applicable combat parameter receives a substantial boost?

I guess you can't be reasoned with. Or won't?

Physic = 40
Rescue, Hammerne, Thief = 50

I've seen units who flail to equal any of the above by downing some promoted enemy, like a general. I'd sooner dance a healer than a melee unit because often the scenario dictates the melee is beat up - and in fact, there's going to be more than one of said melee.

You cannot spam these staves willy-nilly for the EXP. Didn't you say yourself that you wanted to conserve Rescue, Hammerne, and Thief uses for later in the game? Furthermore, your first Physic is in chapter 7, and your 20/1 Malliesia is in chapter 8. And lastly, the EXP gain prorates as you level up anyway.

Also, why would you dance a healer over a combat unit? A healer will not allow you to complete a chapter faster 90% of the time, whereas dancing a combat unit guarantees that you just got that much closer to completing the chapter.

I distinctly thought this wasn't being looked at through a speedrunning lens. Just not exceeding 5-30 turns depending on the chapter. I didn't even field a healer in 6 gaiden.

Of course, I knew this is exactly what you'd say. A tier list without a clear objective is innately more inaccurate.

[Blutritter]

You must be some kind of leap to conclusion twit, Morgan. I'm not advocating staff spam, nothing in my posts connoted that. I would think the low charge amounts of some of them (including the hammerne) rules it out.

I don't see what the holy hell is the problem. Its not like anybody's going to tell you "No, you can't hang around #feto because you're a dumbass." Stop trying to force your goddamn way of doing things on everybody else; nobody wants to listen to that shit. As for the second point:

Defensive, are we? I don't know where this force vibe nonsense is coming from. Are dissenting opinions, God forbid, outlawed? You just look like the dumbass if anybody, an irrational and moody one.......I'm already bored reading your shit.

[dondon151]

Defensive, are we? I don't know where this force vibe nonsense is coming from. Are dissenting opinions, God forbid, outlawed? You just look like the dumbass if anybody, an irrational and moody one.......I'm already bored reading your shit.

Oh, look, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

[Ninji]

Speedrunning/Efficiency are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

The two are not mutually inclusive. There's actually a pretty big difference. Speedrunning is based upon getting the least amount of time when finishing the game and often requires rigging hits/misses in order to beat the game quick enough. In an efficient playthrough, you are not required to get the lowest amount of turns possible every time.

[dondon151]

The two are not mutually inclusive. There's actually a pretty big difference. Speedrunning is based upon getting the least amount of time when finishing the game and often requires rigging hits/misses in order to beat the game quick enough. In an efficient playthrough, you are not required to get the lowest amount of turns possible every time.

You're right, they're not the same. Speedrunning is solely a measure of clocked game time. Efficiency is a measure of turns taken to complete the game with a reasonable chance of success. Not exactly 2 sides of the same coin, as Lancelot said, but speedrunning is not exactly what we're aiming for, either. No one is going to advocate rigging hits/misses unless it is conveniently located next to a save point, and even that is suspect.