1028 replies to this topic

[Ninji]

You're right, they're not the same. Speedrunning is solely a measure of clocked game time. Efficiency is a measure of turns taken to complete the game with a reasonable chance of success. Not exactly 2 sides of the same coin, as Lancelot said, but speedrunning is not exactly what we're aiming for, either. No one is going to advocate rigging hits/misses unless it is conveniently located next to a save point, and even that is suspect.

I know. However, I'm just irked by how Lancelot keeps claiming that Speedrunning and Efficiency are the same thing and that the list is for speedrunning. Nothing more.

[arvilino]

Speedrunning/Efficiency are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

Also those psychic staves aren't going to be spammable. We may have extra uses aside from what is just necessary to beat the game with but we can't just go saying "HEY THE MOST EFFICIENT USE OF THE WARP STAVES IS TO SPAM IT 7 turns in a row so MALLESIA can gain 4 level ups in a chapter!" We are gonna need that warp to skip x amount of chapters.

Edit: Or in non warp skip, we can use the warp to draw off specific enemies for quicker turn clears.

Rescue may be integral to beating some chapter in x amount of turns, Hammerne will be integral to beating the game at max speed, thief will also be highly useful due to the open any chest from anywhere thing it's got going. The stave experience may exist but how do we know Mallesia and the other stave users won't be forced to save them all up for endgame? We need more time to hammer out the efficient strategies for this game.

I think you're underestimating the number of Physic staves you can get early on. You get some in Chapter 5,7 and another one soon after I just can remember when. Considering if it's a speed run I doubt a 5 MOV Curate is going to keep up considering the 8 & 10 MOV fliers being so important. I think the 2 full Physic staves and however many uses are left from the chapter 5 one would be more useful being used a few times early on with the added bonus of the EXP increasing the Curates Magic.

I don't think the Endgame would require all the Physic staff uses. Not that I'm saying the Physic staff should be used every turn. Just that some of them will end up in the convoy never getting used and the healers will be at lower level than they could have been if they had used the Physic staves more often.

[Blutritter]

You cannot spam these staves willy-nilly for the EXP. Didn't you say yourself that you wanted to conserve Rescue, Hammerne, and Thief uses for later in the game? Furthermore, your first Physic is in chapter 7, and your 20/1 Malliesia is in chapter 8. And lastly, the EXP gain prorates as you level up anyway.

No, she's 20/1 at the very tailend of chapter 8, but eh. The first physic staff is dropped by a chapter 5 bishop.

Also, why would you dance a healer over a combat unit? A healer will not allow you to complete a chapter faster 90% of the time

Healing doesn't eliminate heavies on the throne/gate, melee does. Color me amazed.

whereas dancing a combat unit guarantees that you just got that much closer to completing the chapter.

Except that's not going to be the case if the combat unit in question already received a beating from one or multiple silver weapons. It helps conserve a stray turn or two and for that matter, vulneraries.......which are costly for items that only restore 10 HP per use and aren't buyable at the convo, thus finite.

Of course, I knew this is exactly what you'd say. A tier list without a clear objective is innately more inaccurate.

And what is this tier list's clear objective, anyway? Do explain. To show off on YouTube? Reloading until RNG favors a specific player critical?

I was civil enough to express my makeshift one as a mere overview of the opening half of the game where units are mostly unpromoted and gangups on single enemies are in demand.

[Rewjeo]

I disagree with the idea of "Free Silvers." Dismissing characters completely feels wrong to me. So does excluding thieves and healers, but I understand where that comes from. Wolf, Sedgar, and Sheema can OHKO lategame flying dragons with Parthia. Frost can heal (not much, obviously) and Reiden can be somewhat useful for some time.

What's Katarina doing in Low? Aura?

[General Spoon]

And what is this tier list's clear objective, anyway? Do explain. To show off on YouTube? Reloading until RNG favors a specific player critical?

The objective of this tier list is to complete Lunatic Mode as efficiently as possible, with efficiency measured by turn-count. If you want to go off and make your own tier list, FUCKING NOBODY is stopping you. Just go make a new thread about it, and have a clear objective for it.

[dondon151]

Except that's not going to be the case if the combat unit in question already received a beating from one or multiple silver weapons. It helps conserve a stray turn or two and for that matter, vulneraries.......which are costly for items that only restore 10 HP per use and aren't buyable at the convo, thus finite.

This is a very general argument for what is usually a very situational circumstance. As much as we like to use general arguments in FE, since it's incredibly simple, you have to realize that circumstantial arguments are what matter most. If it turns out that in 9 out of 10 maps, your dancer has to constantly dance a combat unit in order to reach the objective by a certain turn number, then those maps will not be favorable to healers.

In my recorded FE6, FE8, and current FE10 runs, I don't specifically recall any moment where I had to dance a staff user other than for a Warp.

And what is this tier list's clear objective, anyway? Do explain. To show off on YouTube? Reloading until RNG favors a specific player critical?

Low turns incorporating reliable strategies.

I disagree with the idea of "Free Silvers." Dismissing characters completely feels wrong to me.

Not quite. Obviously, these characters are not important; we don't want to get ourselves caught up with eating dessert before finishing the entree.

What's Katarina doing in Low? Aura?

Staff rank.

EDIT: damn it, Sirius, I did it again. I'm really sorry.

Edited by Sirius, 26 July 2010 - 04:41 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

That's it. Blutritter, you're done. If you're going to devolve this into silly namecalling, then I don't want to hear from you.

Back on track:

THE FOLLOWING CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE:

- Tiki/Nagi immediately below Jeorge
- Rody to top of Low
- Maris immediately below Rody near top of Low- I want to preserve the tier gap between her and Navarre, but she has utility and some potential longevity.
- Palla to bottom of Top
- Arran to bottom of High
- Sirius to above Luke but below Shiida
- Merric above Jeorge
- No Contest list renamed to "Unique Utility" and moved to above the "tier list"

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, 26 July 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[Ninji]

Not quite. Obviously, these characters are not important; we don't want to get ourselves caught up with eating dessert before finishing the entree.

Well, a very basic tier list ranking all of the characters probably should have been compiled first before posting it, but I guess there's not much to do about it now.

Also, I don't really get the Palla relying on fast classes like DK, Sniper, and Swordmaster being a cause for her dropping when she wants to go into those classes, anyway.

Edited by Ninji, 26 July 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[grandjackal]

Does Dracoknight even qualify as a fast class anymore?

[dondon151]

No, Ninji probably typo'd and meant to say FK.

[Ninji]

Does Dracoknight even qualify as a fast class anymore?

15% higher speed growth than Paladin is significant enough that it should make a difference between the two

Edit: Actually, I meant both FK and DK.

Edited by Ninji, 26 July 2010 - 04:46 PM.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Free Silvers exists because I don't want to spend my valuable time arguing which dumbshit late-joining unit that gets doubled and ORKOed or OHKOed while tinking enemies is less useless than which other dumbshit late-joining unit that gets doubled and ORKOed or OHKOed. It might get rolled into the main tier list eventually, but the fact that 90% of those useless assholes will end up in Bottom doesn't make me want to deal with them.

On topic again: Michalis. People keep bringing up his shitty LCK, but I think that at least being combat-capable on join is decent enough. He has fairly awesome bases and solid ranks, and when he doesn't get CHed, he doesn't take doubles as Hero from anything except SMs. On top of that, if he reclasses to SM he has access to Wyrmslayer and Swordslayer, and doesn't get doubled by anything.

He can at least do *something* 80% of the time, even when the other 20% is "get ch'd and die".

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I think you're underestimating the number of Physic staves you can get early on. You get some in Chapter 5,7 and another one soon after I just can remember when. Considering if it's a speed run I doubt a 5 MOV Curate is going to keep up considering the 8 & 10 MOV fliers being so important. I think the 2 full Physic staves and however many uses are left from the chapter 5 one would be more useful being used a few times early on with the added bonus of the EXP increasing the Curates Magic.

I don't think the Endgame would require all the Physic staff uses. Not that I'm saying the Physic staff should be used every turn. Just that some of them will end up in the convoy never getting used and the healers will be at lower level than they could have been if they had used the Physic staves more often.

Ah honestly, she is already top tier in my eyes. Mallesia that is. Most of the stave users that are being discussed from that tier are all gonna end up top tier in an actual speedrun list.

I just can't find it in me to care if Mallesia can double shit on top of warping Marth across the map. She's already gonna be top tier like rena, wendell, wrys, and boa were. If she doubles by level x/y by around chapter 12 on lunatic then sure she can have a seal. Either way I just don't care.

I know. However, I'm just irked by how Lancelot keeps claiming that Speedrunning and Efficiency are the same thing and that the list is for speedrunning. Nothing more.

Fine. I'll stop acting like the two are the same. This list is about efficiency and not speed running.

[grandjackal]

Free Silvers exists because I don't want to spend my valuable time arguing which dumbshit late-joining unit that gets doubled and ORKOed or OHKOed while tinking enemies is less useless than which other dumbshit late-joining unit that gets doubled and ORKOed or OHKOed. It might get rolled into the main tier list eventually, but the fact that 90% of those useless assholes will end up in Bottom doesn't make me want to deal with them.

On topic again: Michalis. People keep bringing up his shitty LCK, but I think that at least being combat-capable on join is decent enough. He has fairly awesome bases and solid ranks, and when he doesn't get CHed, he doesn't take doubles as Hero from anything except SMs. On top of that, if he reclasses to SM he has access to Wyrmslayer and Swordslayer, and doesn't get doubled by anything.

He can at least do *something* 80% of the time, even when the other 20% is "get ch'd and die".

SM sounds like the wiser choice to me. However with that luck, I can't see how he's gonna be anything other than bottom. He's not pulling out any sort of real utility outside of "Being ok at combat", and most of the time he's just gonna get blasted.

Reminds me of FE6 Karel. If he had terrible luck.

[Blutritter]

This is a very general argument for what is usually a very situational circumstance. As much as we like to use general arguments in FE, since it's incredibly simple, you have to realize that circumstantial arguments are what matter most. If it turns out that in 9 out of 10 maps, your dancer has to constantly dance a combat unit in order to reach the objective by a certain turn number, then those maps will not be favorable to healers.

In my recorded FE6, FE8, and current FE10 runs, I don't specifically recall any moment where I had to dance a staff user other than for a Warp.

Low turns incorporating reliable strategies.

This is speedrunning talk again. I'm for efficiency, but this is not what I'm about. Inflexible planning slanted toward what must be early promotions, possibly ignoring some recruits/village items etc. entirely and crap like that. I didn't field Sedgar or Wolf any more than I thought necessary completing Shadow Dragon Merciless, and I didn't bother with Maric or Linde at all past their mandatory chapters.

I'm migrating to Fusion to get a real discussion rolling in the near future - by the looks of it, not what their most recent tier list chatter for installments six through nine is founded or hung up on either.

[dondon151]

I'm migrating to Fusion to get a real discussion rolling in the near future - by the looks of it, not what their most recent tier list chatter for installments six through nine is founded or hung up on either.

Great. We won't miss you.

[General Spoon]

This is speedrunning talk again. I'm for efficiency, but this is not what I'm about. Inflexible planning slanted toward what must be early promotions, possibly ignoring some recruits/village items etc. entirely and crap like that. I didn't field Sedgar or Wolf any more than I thought necessary completing Shadow Dragon Merciless, and I didn't bother with Maric or Linde at all past their mandatory chapters.

I'm migrating to Fusion to get a real discussion rolling in the near future - by the looks of it, not what their most recent tier list chatter for installments six through nine is founded or hung up on either.

And nothing of value was lost.

[Sirius]

Just noticed that utility tier. Think Katarina could go in it? Reclassing to Bishop and some staff uses will get her to B and probably A when you reach the final chapters.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, Katarina is probably being used just for staffspam, and not just a below-average attacker when you have Merric, Etzel, and Ellerean.

Katarina moved to Unique Utility.

[Blutritter]

Great. We won't miss you.

Whoa, whoa......you think I'm the one asking for my cock to be employed like a pacifier, for all heads to bow in my direction? Nor have I been the aggressor in writing here. Nice to meet you too! Say Spoon, talking to oneself is a bad habit.

The close-minded elitism on some of these boards......sick.