14 replies to this topic

[Soul]

Janaff > Ulki, unless Fenrir proves otherwise with actual facts and stats, all under an effecient scenerio.

[whase]

does this mean I cannot say anything on this topic?
if I can:

Spoiler -

Ulki has a bonus towards evade, which makes him more usable while halfshifted or untransformed. that beats having more hit and more vision in FoW (is he even ever in any FoW chapters?) either way, he is easier to train.

if not; I will go die slowly in that corner over there. >.<

[Soul]

I'm sorry, Whase. This is a private debate.

[Fenrir]

Ulki is virtually unhitable without a support, and can still dodge without being shifted. That means more WEXP(especially on 3-7) and he can transform faster.

Janaff is stronger, but both should probably be given the 1 and 2 levels of BEXP(and who nows, ulki may only need one with all his non-transformed fighting) giving them tear and adept. Ulki is ORKOing everything and can't be hit. crossbows and bows are the only thing taking these guys down anyways, but if they can't hit Ulki he's invincible.


(sloppy but i had to start somewhere)

[Soul]

In a debate, you are supposed to defend the character you're defeding by presenting reasons to why he/she is better than your opponent's character, backed-up by facts and some scenerio and resource assumptions.

However, I do appreciate you took the first step without any objection. And I thank you for accepting this debate challenge.

Anyway, here's what I got:

Janaff and Ulki are pretty similiar units. It's no wonder they are placed close to each other at the tier list topic. However, there is also a reason to why Janaff is placed on above Ulki...

Unit      Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Janaff      29  57  16  2  19  17  30   12  8    
Ulki        28  59  14  3  17  18  25   11 10

Janaff: 40 Atk, WtfHit/ 19 Crit, 34 AS, 98 Avo, 24 Def, 8 Res
Ulki: 36 Atk, 136 Hit/17 Crit, 36 AS, 117 Avo, 22 Def, 20 Res

While Ulki does have overkill Avo, it's not something I would consider as such an advantage. For one thing, Janaff's Avo isn't looking too shabby either. He's dodging pretty much anything with ease at neutral Avo. Then you get back to Earth, and realize that Crossbow enemies aren't the norm, and that Janaff is doing pretty well himself against all the other enemies while 1RKO'ing.

I'm sorry to tell you that you took Janaff's offensive advantage a little too lightly. That's pretty much the main reason he's above Ulki. Janaff's base 40 Atk allows him to 1RKO every enemy not a General or a boss on the map. 36 Atk (AKA, what Ulki has at base) was 1RKO'ing back at 3-P & 3-1 and probably even missing on some enemies. Imagine here, 5-6 chapters later- It's missing on everything not a SM or a Sage/Bishop. Janaff just needs a level of BEXP to access the amazing Mastery Skill, Tear. You might as well him Adept + Halfshift for all of Part 3 and call it a day.

Janaff is stronger, but both should probably be given the 1 and 2 levels of BEXP(and who nows, ulki may only need one with all his non-transformed fighting) giving them tear and adept. Ulki is ORKOing everything and can't be hit. crossbows and bows are the only thing taking these guys down anyways, but if they can't hit Ulki he's invincible.

So yeah...you can't exactly be hoping to have him fight unstransformed just to gain some more CEXP, that'd be hindering him from S-ranking his strike as well as going out of your way just to have his 7-Mov reach the enemies while Janaff is out there being the real hero. I would also like to remind you that in HM, Exp gain is a little scarce, especially when Ulki levels like a lvl 20/20/8 unit untransformed. Ulki can go stroke the royal shaft.

tl;dr: Janaff, the toddler Hawk who made his own king shut up > The emo parrot.

Edited by Angru Mainya, 22 July 2011 - 10:13 PM.

[Fenrir]

Is it possible to have heather steal the Energy drop in HM playing efficiently?(3-5)

Janaff and Ulki are pretty similiar units. It's no wonder they are placed close to each other at the tier list topic. However, there is also a reason to why Janaff is placed on above Ulki...

Unit      Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Janaff      29  57  16  2  19  17  30   12  8    
Ulki        28  59  14  3  17  18  25   11 10

Janaff: 40 Atk, WtfHit/ 19 Crit, 34 AS, 98 Avo, 24 Def, 8 Res
Ulki: 36 Atk, 136 Hit/17 Crit, 36 AS, 117 Avo, 22 Def, 20 Res

While Ulki does have overkill Avo, it's not something I would consider as such an advantage. For one thing, Janaff's Avo isn't looking too shabby either. He's dodging pretty much anything with ease at neutral Avo. Then you get back to Earth, and realize that Crossbow enemies aren't the norm, and that Janaff is doing pretty well himself against all the other enemies while 1RKO'ing.

I'm sorry to tell you that you took Janaff's offensive advantage a little too lightly. That's pretty much the main reason he's above Ulki. Janaff's base 40 Atk allows him to 1RKO every enemy not a General or a boss on the map. 36 Atk (AKA, what Ulki has at base) was 1RKO'ing back at 3-P & 3-1 and probably even missing on some enemies. Imagine here, 5-6 chapters later- It's missing on everything not a SM or a Sage/Bishop. Janaff just needs a level of BEXP to access the amazing Mastery Skill, Tear. You might as well him Adept + Halfshift for all of Part 3 and call it a day.

Crossbow enemies may not be the norm, but you will most likely have to move Janaff differently when they're around. & Bows hitting janaff are another problem altogether.

I think your taking Janaff's offensive advantage too heavily. He doesn't cleanly ORKO armors and bosses, so he's relying on skills like ulki as well. Adept/Tear Ulki(who has a better chance of activating those skills) Should be getting Tear 36% of the time, and Adept at the same rate, he's also doubling everything. So basically if he's not killing it, it's a fluke.

So yeah...you can't exactly be hoping to have him fight unstransformed just to gain some more CEXP, that'd be hindering him from S-ranking his strike as well as going out of your way just to have his 7-Mov reach the enemies while Janaff is out there being the real hero. I would also like to remind you that in HM, Exp gain is a little scarce, especially when Ulki levels like a lvl 20/20/8 unit untransformed.

Actually when untransformed Ulki still gains WEXP. He's not going to be sitting there untransformed, but he can get back to a full bar while having a miniscule chance of dying.(and getting some WEXP)

[Soul]

Is it possible to have heather steal the Energy drop in HM playing efficiently?(3-5)

Of course. =P

Crossbow enemies may not be the norm, but you will most likely have to move Janaff differently when they're around. & Bows hitting janaff are another problem altogether.

Which... once again, isn't often at all. Meanwhile, Janaff's offensive advantage remains consistent as he still 1RKO's most enemies.

@Bold: Bows hitting Ulki is a problem as well. But then we get back to Earth and realize how low the chances of that happening are for both of them, and that Snipers don't come in groups. Ever. That'd actually be a problem if I send Janaff to the Silver Route, and even then, he's still getting 2HKO'd at most.

Another easy solution to this Crossbow paranoia is simple: Miracle. A skill that isn't contested by anyone, and that Janaff can easily take without hurting the team at all. With 30 Luck, he's prone to be able to take a hit from a Crossbow and live to tell the tale.

I think your taking Janaff's offensive advantage too heavily. He doesn't cleanly ORKO armors and bosses, so he's relying on skills like ulki as well. Adept/Tear Ulki(who has a better chance of activating those skills) Should be getting Tear 36% of the time, and Adept at the same rate, he's also doubling everything. So basically if he's not killing it, it's a fluke.

So, you're basically saying: Being able to dodge the most scarce enemy type > 1RKO'ing consistently? Especially when durability is never a concern? It's not like Snipers come in groups, either.

Not being able to 1RKO Generals and bosses is a non-factor as well. Ike, Titania and Haar can't 1RKO those either, unless you consider them using special weapons like Hammers, or something. Ike needs Adept. Hell, Janaff can't 1RKO bosses if I'm taking clean 2HKO's as his main offense, but, as I said, I'm also putting Adept and Tear into game.

I still see you're ignoring the opportunity cost analysis here. Ulki requires an Energy Drop and two levels of BEXP, just to be on par with Janaff. Remember how scare BEXP is in HM as well? You'd go poor in BEXP before even being able to pour in a second level, meaning he's only relying on Adept for most of it, while Janaff doesn't have to go worry about his Laguz gauge because he'll be Halfshifted for most of Part 3.

Actually when untransformed Ulki still gains WEXP. He's not going to be sitting there untransformed, but he can get back to a full bar while having a miniscule chance of dying.(and getting some WEXP)

Yeah, at a snail's pace.


I would actually consider Ulki > Janaff if utility was based on survivility, but since Janaff contributes more to the team without consuming many resources...

Edited by Angru Mainya, 23 July 2011 - 08:29 PM.

[Fenrir]

Of course. =P

So for this 3-5 Energy drop, Ranulf/janaff/ulki are probably the best candidates.(tell me if i'm missing someone) Ranulf, despite being forced for maps, isn't so great because of his cat bar. Janaff is already ORKOing stuff, and there's hammers for the armors. So that leaves Ulki to get it. He's got a good bar, and puts it to good use. +4 might while doubling is +8 damage.

@Bold: Bows hitting Ulki is a problem as well. But then we get back to Earth and realize how low the chances of that happening are for both of them, and that Snipers don't come in groups. Ever. That'd actually be a problem if I send Janaff to the Silver Route, and even then, he's still getting 2HKO'd at most.

the problem is there, but -15% is pretty significant. There's also a mob of crossbows on 4-3 Janaff should definitely stay away from, not to mention snipers littering the map.

Another easy solution to this Crossbow paranoia is simple: Miracle. A skill that isn't contested by anyone, and that Janaff can easily take without hurting the team at all. With 30 Luck, he's prone to be able to take a hit from a Crossbow and live to tell the tale.

Isn't 30luck 30% of miracle happening? I've never been to happy about 30 hit, so I wouldn't wanna rely on 30% anything

So, you're basically saying: Being able to dodge the most scarce enemy type > 1RKO'ing consistently? Especially when durability is never a concern? It's not like Snipers come in groups, either.

You're right about snipers not coming in as much during P3, but if sent silver army, there's a shitton of bows

Not being able to 1RKO Generals and bosses is a non-factor as well. Ike, Titania and Haar can't 1RKO those either, unless you consider them using special weapons like Hammers, or something. Ike needs Adept. Hell, Janaff can't 1RKO bosses if I'm taking clean 2HKO's as his main offense, but, as I said, I'm also putting Adept and Tear into game.

yeah, you're right about this, brave sword/hammer are probably killing the armors with Ike/titan/haar/boyd

I still see you're ignoring the opportunity cost analysis here. Ulki requires an Energy Drop and two levels of BEXP, just to be on par with Janaff. Remember how scare BEXP is in HM as well? You'd go poor in BEXP before even being able to pour in a second level, meaning he's only relying on Adept for most of it, while Janaff doesn't have to go worry about his Laguz gauge because he'll be Halfshifted for most of Part 3.

But I don't see a better use for the energy drop, so it's not a major sacrifice.

I don't think it's too ridiculous getting both of these guys to level 30. There's a price to pay for everything, and Tear will turn both hawks into rape machines.

& Don't Janaff and Ulki both have access to Wildheart?

Yeah, at a snail's pace.


I would actually consider Ulki > Janaff if utility was based on survivility, but since Janaff contributes more to the team without consuming many resources...

everyone gets strike up at a snail's pace haha

Janaff is definitely going to be better from the start, but there is a price to pay for everything. And after paying that price i think ulki is better.

Edited by Fenrir, 24 July 2011 - 01:42 PM.

[Soul]

the problem is there, but -15% is pretty significant. There's also a mob of crossbows on 4-3 Janaff should definitely stay away from, not to mention snipers littering the map.

I know that. But there are only three of them that start close to each other, which are at the South of the map. There is another one at the center of the map, and the last one appears as a Turn 8 reinforcement. A total of 5 Crossbow Warriors. 0/ Besides, the Silver Route is Haar, Jill and Naesala lalala land.

Either way, it's most ideal to send the Hawks to the Hawk route. It's the least that's 2-range heavy, and they can actually do great there due to terrain disadvantages others suffer while they don't.

Isn't 30luck 30% of miracle happening? I've never been to happy about 30 hit, so I wouldn't wanna rely on 30% anything

The chances of activation isn't X out of 100, it's rather similiar to a critical proc, where 30% crit is actually pretty reliable.

You're right about snipers not coming in as much during P3, but if sent silver army, there's a shitton of bows

I covered that above.

But I don't see a better use for the energy drop, so it's not a major sacrifice.

Mia or Nephenee.

I don't think it's too ridiculous getting both of these guys to level 30. There's a price to pay for everything, and Tear will turn both hawks into rape machines.

That's right, it isn't. But it's just too much BEXP to waste due to their high levels. I could give those levels you used on Ulki to BEXP Tanith up to lvl 20 and have her be awesome.

& Don't Janaff and Ulki both have access to Wildheart?

There's only one Wildheart at Part 3, actually...

everyone gets strike up at a snail's pace haha

But by making a laguz try to do it untransformed is worse. =/

Janaff is definitely going to be better from the start, but there is a price to pay for everything. And after paying that price i think ulki is better.

Ulki is never better than Janaff. Just equal at some point. Later, Ulki's Atk strats decaying because of that hideous 25 Str growth.

ONLY I CAN LIVE FOREVER.

Edited by Angru Mainya, 24 July 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[Fenrir]

I know that. But there are only three of them that start close to each other, which are at the South of the map. There is another one at the center of the map, and the last one appears as a Turn 8 reinforcement. A total of 5 Crossbow Warriors. 0/ Besides, the Silver Route is Haar, Jill and Naesala lalala land.

Either way, it's most ideal to send the Hawks to the Hawk route. It's the least that's 2-range heavy, and they can actually do great there due to terrain disadvantages others suffer while they don't.

Under the scenario where you don't train Jill(Something I'd never do if playing efficiently) it will come up.

The chances of activation isn't X out of 100, it's rather similiar to a critical proc, where 30% crit is actually pretty reliable.

Makes Fry meme face.

Mia or Nephenee.

By 3-7 they should be caught up on their Strength problems, but isn't a useful Ulki > Mia/Neph?

That's right, it isn't. But it's just too much BEXP to waste due to their high levels. I could give those levels you used on Ulki to BEXP Tanith up to lvl 20 and have her be awesome.

Yes we could, but Ulki should be making 3-8/3-10 significantly easier.

There's only one Wildheart at Part 3, actually...

And i guess it's asking to much for ilyana to bring one. But why should Janaff get it if they're equal in strength?

But by making a laguz try to do it untransformed is worse. =/

It's not something we're relying on, but Ulki has an advantage on Janaff when untransformed.

Ulki is never better than Janaff. Just equal at some point. Later, Ulki's Atk strats decaying because of that hideous 25 Str growth.

ONLY I CAN LIVE FOREVER.

If equal strength, Ulki should be the better of the two.

No, i shall hunt you down and devour you.



EDIT: One last thing I'd like to bring into discussion here. Ulki is a water affinity giving him some extra MT when supported(but his best support might end up being Janaff)

Edited by Fenrir, 24 July 2011 - 03:35 PM.

[Soul]

Under the scenario where you don't train Jill(Something I'd never do if playing efficiently) it will come up.

Tanith.

Makes Fry meme face.

There's a reason why Miracle works great on a trained Micaiah, you know. (As seen on the drafts)

By 3-7 they should be caught up on their Strength problems, but isn't a useful Ulki > Mia/Neph?

In NM, maybe. But in HM, it's harder to get their levels up with a full team. Not denying Ulki is a better candidate for the drop, it's just that Mia and Neph might make a better use of it due to their 2-range and passable offense.

Yes we could, but Ulki should be making 3-8/3-10 significantly easier.

...Now, that's really overdoing it. 3-8 and -10 go by in a breeze due to Haar and/or Titania respectively. Those two chapters have many enemies, and a few of them have 2-range, neither Ulki or Janaff take the cup there.

And i guess it's asking to much for ilyana to bring one. But why should Janaff get it if they're equal in strength?

Somehow, I expected you'd say that. Then I remind you that Volug can't unnasign Wildheart until Part 3.
By the way, I'm not saying Janaff should get the Drop, I'm just saying he could and end up giving better use to it, considering enemies get tougher quickly and he'll stop cleanly 2HKO'ing as soon as 3-11. If he S-ranks his strike at 3-11, he will keep the clean 2HKO's all the way into Part 4 as well.

It's not something we're relying on, but Ulki has an advantage on Janaff when untransformed.

Having laguz fight untransformed doesn't help at all.

If equal strength, Ulki should be the better of the two.

Ulki will stop 2HKO'ing really quickly. And I already covered to how his access to Tear won't be coming anytime soon without having to hurt your team in the process.

No, i shall hunt you down and devour you.

Hahaha, lol. You need to watch Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part 2.

EDIT: One last thing I'd like to bring into discussion here. Ulki is a water affinity giving him some extra MT when supported(but his best support might end up being Janaff)

Yeah, ok. Now Janaff can 1RKO at 3-11. Janaff also gets Avo and Def boost. :P

Edited by Angru Mainya, 24 July 2011 - 03:58 PM.

[Fenrir]

Tanith.

alright, then i agree they go hawk army.

There's a reason why Miracle works great on a trained Micaiah, you know. (As seen on the drafts)

I still don't think i understand.

In NM, maybe. But in HM, it's harder to get their levels up with a full team. Not denying Ulki is a better candidate for the drop, it's just that Mia and Neph might make a better use of it due to their 2-range and passable offense.

Mia doesn't have much 2range. & neph is probly going to end up fine thanks to P2 bexp.

...Now, that's really overdoing it. 3-8 and -10 go by in a breeze due to Haar and/or Titania respectively. Those two chapters have many enemies, and a few of them have 2-range, neither Ulki or Janaff take the cup there.

I think I came across wrong. What i meant to say was that Ulki's greater availability Makes better use of the 2 levels of BEXP. They aren't doing amazing on 3-8/3-10 but they should be contributing no doubt.

Somehow, I expected you'd say that. Then I remind you that Volug can't unnasign Wildheart until Part 3.
By the way, I'm not saying Janaff should get the Drop, I'm just saying he could and end up giving better use to it, considering enemies get tougher quickly and he'll stop cleanly 2HKO'ing as soon as 3-11. If he S-ranks his strike at 3-11, he will keep the clean 2HKO's all the way into Part 4 as well.

Oh right, being able to fully shift on 1-E always makes me confused.

I don't think Janaff really needs the drop. He should get S-strike at 3-10 or 3-11. As should ulki.

Having laguz fight untransformed doesn't help at all.

No, but having laguz stay alive while untransformed does.

Ulki will stop 2HKO'ing really quickly. And I already covered to how his access to Tear won't be coming anytime soon without having to hurt your team in the process.

I'm still not convinced Ulki shouldn't get 2 levels of bexp.

Hahaha, lol. You need to watch Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part 2.



Yeah, ok. Now Janaff can 1RKO at 3-11. Janaff also gets Avo and Def boost. :P

I saw it and caught the quote. But since I am Fenrir, a wolf of destruction, it is my duty to ensure you do not live forever.

Ulki gets the same benefits. this is really only an advantage for ulki if he's supported with somebody else. But i doubt that situation is very likely.

[Soul]

I still don't think i understand.

It's simple. The activation rate is reliable.

Mia doesn't have much 2range. & neph is probly going to end up fine thanks to P2 bexp.

Mia has Storm swords and Tempest blades, which allow her to 1RKO. Nephenee just gets to cap Spd and Skill really quickly through Part 2 BEXP, although it barely helps her Str.

I think I came across wrong. What i meant to say was that Ulki's greater availability Makes better use of the 2 levels of BEXP. They aren't doing amazing on 3-8/3-10 but they should be contributing no doubt.

Ulki only has three chapters over Tanith, and he isn't honestly contributing in the first- He's just raising his strike. Tanith ends up being better all the way through Part 4 because of how amazing flight and 2-range can be. I'm just saying Ulki doesn't have it easy when it comes to getting that BEXP for Tear when all he honestly needs is Adept. Janaff, however, he's taking Tear because it's at a minor cost and he has instant access to Wildheart (Heck, he comes with it).

Ulki can get to lvl 30 at 3-11 as the earliest. And that's assuming he gets the boss kill at 3-10 and even some more BEXP after that.

I don't think Janaff really needs the drop. He should get S-strike at 3-10 or 3-11. As should ulki.

I reiterate: I'm not saying Janaff needs it, I'm just saying he's putting better use to it, as he'll ensure cleanly 1RKO's most enemies (AKA, without needing Adept/Tear procs) at Part 4 before his S-rank strike. By the way, S-ranking at 3-10 is pretty damn early. In my HM draft, I had Janaff S-rank by the end of 3-11.

No, but having laguz stay alive while untransformed does.

Ulki is not legion. He cannot be referred in plural. Having a character that doesn't do anything alive is not useful.

This point is kinda moot. His Exp gain doesn't get much better while fighting unstransformed.

I'm still not convinced Ulki shouldn't get 2 levels of bexp.

Ulki gets the same benefits. this is really only an advantage for ulki if he's supported with somebody else. But i doubt that situation is very likely.

Janaff is his fastest support and they share movement types.


We're repeating the points like parrots. I think it's safe for the judges to come out now.

[Fenrir]

We're repeating the points like parrots. I think it's safe for the judges to come out now.[/font][/color]

Yeah haha, not a lot more to say here.

But 2 last things...

About your Mia with storm swords/tempest blades statement. Those swords don't come along very often at all, and when they do, There's only 20 uses.

I think Ulki staying alive better while untransformed is worth Something.

Edited by Fenrir, 25 July 2011 - 02:56 PM.

[Tricky Dick]

I vote for Soul.

I think Fenrir was incredibly weak here. He'd throw out a point as more of a question and Soul would bat it back out of the park. I don't even play FE10 but I know a good debator when I see one. And when someone's arguments hinge on "Well, he can't survive bows!" when the other person brought numbers and stuff to play, gotta go with the guy who has some semblance of evidence.

However, Soul, you should always bring numbers to the table to back up your points. Hard evidence helps more than anything.