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#41 mmKALLL

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:31 AM

I'd say that IC seems overpowered for the scrub and too difficult once others start surpassing you with their Marios, which makes the character not wanted nearly at all.

Is Hazama good even though you only know the basics of his play? Ice Climbers are terrible until you've poured loads of time (hundreds of hours) into them, then sharply start becoming good. To make them excellent, you have to stay at that good level until you master the most difficult things and get every single matchup down perfectly. Even then, they aren't as good as Marth, for example.

It pretty much depends on the size you're looking at things. If Vermanubis, a highly knowledged Ganondorf main, came to Europe, he'd be in the top 10 of a continental tournament despite there being like 20-40 players in the tournament who have characters who counter Ganondorf. Vermanubis also does well on the American ground, but will probably never get even near top 100 just because of the Meta Knights and stuff. With the ban of MK things may change, though - two regional-sized tournaments (MK Banned, they were before the Unity Ban) I looked at for some data had 4 low tier characters within top 12 (Ganondorf won the other one, can't remember player though, lol) and had over 25 characters of the roster used by around 40 players. I'd say that mid-tiers are quite viable for tournament play after the ban, although they will never see the top spots of world class play.

Edited by mmKALLL, 05 October 2011 - 11:32 AM.


#42 eclipse

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:43 AM

Is Hazama good even though you only know the basics of his play? Ice Climbers are terrible until you've poured loads of time (hundreds of hours) into them, then sharply start becoming good. To make them excellent, you have to stay at that good level until you master the most difficult things and get every single matchup down perfectly. Even then, they aren't as good as Marth, for example.


Hold this thought, will ya? I can try to answer this, but since I don't know enough about the specifics of any one fighting game, I'll probably end up shoving my foot in my mouth. Someone I know IRL follows this stuff closely, so if I ever see him around, I can give you a better answer.

Long story short: If it's good enough, you'll see more of it.

#43 mmKALLL

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:52 PM

Probably not, since most players are already good with their character and don't bother/want to learn ICs just for the sake of it. As for MK mains, they usually have a secondary character, and that usually isn't named IC. -LzR- is exempt, but his Ice Climbers sort of suck even though he has used tons of hours into them and has the basics down somewhat better than me. They are hard to deal with, but if I keep my head cool, more or less easier than some of his secondaries even though IC is his main right now and he actively becomes better with them. Sure, he might surpass his Peach with the Climbers, it's quite probable too, but that will require ways of more playing with them anyway than what he currently has.

And even after all that work? IC still has some deep problems which he can't get rid of no matter what. Without chaingrabs and desynchs IC is nearly as bad as Ganondorf, maybe Falcon's level (and with Nana dead, Ganondorf has a +1 against him iirc), and a third of the match you don't have those great weapons available due to said problems. Pulling the infinite off is no easy task either, and if Nana isn't perfectly setup, I can mash myself out of it.

The story here? Even while Ice Climbers are good, there are much easier characters who are better than him, IC isn't popular and most players don't play him in the first place. There are only several good Ice Climbers players in the whole world, and I can name only 9B from the top of my head. Iirc Leffen also used IC in Brawl, though, but I'm by no means sure about that. (and is he good in the first place, lol?)

It's probably the least played character, and people with other mains don't really have a good reason to play him over someone else if they absolutely were forced to switch mains. In fact, many IC mains are put off from their character either to main MK or if they play on low level, because of the sudden realization: this character sucks until I've played it for a year. I don't want to suck for a year when I could become really good with all the other high tiers within that time.

Even after the year of IC, I probably wouldn't be at the level of my current Marth. A little over two months of Marth playing so far. And even the maximum potential is below Marth in any case. It's no good as a secondary character either, I'd pick Falco or Dedede for that. Mainly due to the time consumption before it's better than my Marth in any match-up on any stage regardless, but also because Marth already covers pretty well all the match-ups that IC would utterly destroy - 500-1000 hours in a character just to get +3 more against Ganondorf and Falcon?

#44 grandjackal

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:32 PM

I'd say that IC seems overpowered for the scrub and too difficult once others start surpassing you with their Marios, which makes the character not wanted nearly at all.


So the IC is...Oddly enough, the high tier Grappler of this game...

Is Hazama good even though you only know the basics of his play?


Fuck no, he's awful until you learn just about everything about him. In fact, if I were to put things about Hazama on paper for you, you'd think I'd be lying to your face. Once in the hands of a master though, he's basically THE best character in the game...

...If not for a braindead squirrel.

Ice Climbers are terrible until you've poured loads of time (hundreds of hours) into them, then sharply start becoming good. To make them excellent, you have to stay at that good level until you master the most difficult things and get every single matchup down perfectly. Even then, they aren't as good as Marth, for example.


I can't help but notice a similarity here...

It pretty much depends on the size you're looking at things. If Vermanubis, a highly knowledged Ganondorf main, came to Europe, he'd be in the top 10 of a continental tournament despite there being like 20-40 players in the tournament who have characters who counter Ganondorf. Vermanubis also does well on the American ground, but will probably never get even near top 100 just because of the Meta Knights and stuff. With the ban of MK things may change, though - two regional-sized tournaments (MK Banned, they were before the Unity Ban) I looked at for some data had 4 low tier characters within top 12 (Ganondorf won the other one, can't remember player though, lol) and had over 25 characters of the roster used by around 40 players. I'd say that mid-tiers are quite viable for tournament play after the ban, although they will never see the top spots of world class play.


Impressive a guy like that can get to top 10 with Ganon (though an issue I would have is "Could he win once at that level?"), but hey. There's a November matchup chart coming soon anyways, and now that Meta Knight's banned, thinks will be easier for this Vermanubis guy. He sounds classy.

Probably not, since most players are already good with their character and don't bother/want to learn ICs just for the sake of it. As for MK mains, they usually have a secondary character, and that usually isn't named IC. -LzR- is exempt, but his Ice Climbers sort of suck even though he has used tons of hours into them and has the basics down somewhat better than me. They are hard to deal with, but if I keep my head cool, more or less easier than some of his secondaries even though IC is his main right now and he actively becomes better with them. Sure, he might surpass his Peach with the Climbers, it's quite probable too, but that will require ways of more playing with them anyway than what he currently has.

And even after all that work? IC still has some deep problems which he can't get rid of no matter what. Without chaingrabs and desynchs IC is nearly as bad as Ganondorf, maybe Falcon's level (and with Nana dead, Ganondorf has a +1 against him iirc), and a third of the match you don't have those great weapons available due to said problems. Pulling the infinite off is no easy task either, and if Nana isn't perfectly setup, I can mash myself out of it.


Sounds like a character who needs plenty of precision to work. Surprised IC is as dynamic as it sounds. But still, Clipseyitty said it best. If it's good, you'll see more of it. Tier whoring happens all around the world. Now that MK's gone, those whores are gonna have to flock somewhere. Chances are it will be Marth more than not I suppose, but Ice Climbers are looking to be up there, unless November makes me look stupid.

The story here? Even while Ice Climbers are good, there are much easier characters who are better than him, IC isn't popular and most players don't play him in the first place. There are only several good Ice Climbers players in the whole world, and I can name only 9B from the top of my head. Iirc Leffen also used IC in Brawl, though, but I'm by no means sure about that. (and is he good in the first place, lol?)

It's probably the least played character, and people with other mains don't really have a good reason to play him over someone else if they absolutely were forced to switch mains. In fact, many IC mains are put off from their character either to main MK or if they play on low level, because of the sudden realization: this character sucks until I've played it for a year. I don't want to suck for a year when I could become really good with all the other high tiers within that time.


That's how things roll with high execution characters, but popularity does not equal power. Clearly these people who have Ice Climbers in the right hand are doing so well with them that it got them to top tier, even ignoring low tier completely.

Even after the year of IC, I probably wouldn't be at the level of my current Marth. A little over two months of Marth playing so far. And even the maximum potential is below Marth in any case. It's no good as a secondary character either, I'd pick Falco or Dedede for that. Mainly due to the time consumption before it's better than my Marth in any match-up on any stage regardless, but also because Marth already covers pretty well all the match-ups that IC would utterly destroy - 500-1000 hours in a character just to get +3 more against Ganondorf and Falcon?


Well, that's like, your opinion, man. If someone likes Ice Climbers (something about their design or how intricate you have to be with them), then they'll go ahead and do it. But I can again see why Ice Climbers would be unpopular, I'm just saying it's because they're hard to play, not weak. Besides, why would they bother training against Ganon or Captain when they're not even a hint of a threat? All these ungodly hours spent, you shouldn't really have to spend them training against characters so bad they only have good matchups on themselves.That would just be...completionistic.

#45 Psych

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:36 PM

I like Ice Climbers

#46 mmKALLL

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:31 AM

"Besides, why would they bother training against Ganon or Captain when they're not even a hint of a threat?"

That's the point. I could learn Marth instead and get much more advantages, that's the only one advantage that ICs have over him match-up wise that sprang to mind.
Well, I guess we might see several new Ice Climbers, yeah. Good luck to them, I doubt that anyone is going to get on a national level.


Well, yeah. Waiting for that revised chart, hopefully they do a MK banned tierlist too. (or, since BBR-RC banned it, the BBR might not even make a list where MK is allowed) Half a year or so is a long time.

Also, "Could he win once at that level?", what do you mean? Once at that level? Verm is already excellent, there's just a huge difference between the American scene and European one, and I think he would excel in the European one better than over there. They say he's the best Ganondorf in the whole world, and seeing that many, many people don't care about tiers and just play their favourite characters, best Ganondorf is still a huge title. (though best MK is obviously more impressive, regardless) I don't think anyone from Europe is best with any character in world class, most of them come from America, and several from Japan.

#47 grandjackal

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:53 AM

Also, "Could he win once at that level?", what do you mean? Once at that level? Verm is already excellent, there's just a huge difference between the American scene and European one, and I think he would excel in the European one better than over there. They say he's the best Ganondorf in the whole world, and seeing that many, many people don't care about tiers and just play their favourite characters, best Ganondorf is still a huge title. (though best MK is obviously more impressive, regardless) I don't think anyone from Europe is best with any character in world class, most of them come from America, and several from Japan.


Basically "Once at that level" means like hte top 8 of tourneys. Does this Vermanubis manage this? Because I would love to see a Ganondorf playing at that kind of levels. If you got vids, I would be more than delighted to see them.

#48 Vorena

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 06:08 AM

It is funny how some people put hints of shame if you got beaten by a low tier character when a lot of the time it really shouldn't matter.

If you look at someone like Ganondorf, he is actually an okay character when your opponent does not know how to abuse the advantages a character has against him. Ganon's is very good at capitalizing upon mistakes a person makes. If you make a single mistake, he has options that will set-up for much more damage. For example, say you get hit by his Dair at zero percent, this does roughly 20% of damage and will combo into another attack of his depending upon the character. At least you should come out with about 40% of damage. Get flame choked and hit by a fsmash if ganon gets the read right, and you probably lost your stock if you are a light weight character. At until you are proficient at not making mistake or preventing Ganon from getting this simple attacks chains on you, he is actually pretty good. It is also rather similar to Snake. Hits hard, kills early, lives a long time. Much different from say sheik where she gets killed early, doesn't not kill early, and does little damage per attack.

When you are refining your skills, getting good rewards for few hits is usually much more important than other aspects in the game such has shutting down most of a characters options. At the very least its a balancing effect.

Edited by Coconut&Lime, 06 October 2011 - 06:08 AM.


#49 COOL

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 07:49 AM

Basically "Once at that level" means like hte top 8 of tourneys. Does this Vermanubis manage this? Because I would love to see a Ganondorf playing at that kind of levels. If you got vids, I would be more than delighted to see them.


I didn't see anything recent from Verm, but take a look at these if you want...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgARcZWicqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhC5JzM62Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GP56d1YUw

DLA got 3rd/23 at that tourney.

#50 grandjackal

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:20 AM

I didn't see anything recent from Verm, but take a look at these if you want...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgARcZWicqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhC5JzM62Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GP56d1YUw

DLA got 3rd/23 at that tourney.


Dony Kong does not look like that bad a matchup, just kind of annoying that his air back kick is like the most annoying thing ever. If anything, Gann seemed more solid than DK.

Luigi just...Doesn't die. Luigi annoys me already.

Mr G&W is fucking obnoxious. Still, very impressive Ganon work. Problem is, that looks exactly like how I would play him...I notice that Ganon's forward B now that I see it is bsically Tager's Gadget Finger, and the player treats it as such. If only Ganon had a 360/720...

#51 Vorena

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:59 AM

The irony of those videos is that I played DLA, Arty, and YoshQ about 3 weeks ago at IMDB
I'm surprised Arty went G&W vs Ganon. Perhaps he wanted to train his G&W or maybe just agreed to do it with DLA.

Edited by Coconut&Lime, 06 October 2011 - 09:00 AM.


#52 mmKALLL

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 09:41 AM

"It is funny how some people put hints of shame if you got beaten by a low tier character when a lot of the time it really shouldn't matter."

This is very true, yet I do it myself too sometimes, LOL. I mean, I always scoff at such behavior and laugh if my Link manages to get a win against anybody.

"Dony Kong does not look like that bad a matchup, just kind of annoying that his air back kick is like the most annoying thing ever."

DK's back air is really good for spacing purposes and easily his best aerial for overall purposes.

At any rate, Ganondorf sucks, but is still good in the right hands.

#53 grandjackal

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:11 PM

I'm not saying that those that play top tier should be shamed to be beaten by low tier, rather the opposite. Great pride to win with characters who have a clear disadvantage/take serious execution to win. That, and some players you just know are tier whores, playing just cause they saw a tier list and saw someone was the best, and thus picked him. Kinda how one can tell how strong top tier is with how many people play the best. If I recall correctly, usage of Meta Knight was out of control, much like in Street Fighter 4 AE the metagame was basically "Play Hong Kong or Seth". Not sure how bad tourneys got with Brawl and Meta Knight, but the past like...10 tourneys with top 8 was basically the same 5 characters (Yun, Yang, Seth, Viper, Fei Long), and there was no real questions. Like, that's how it is in AE it's so bad.

Like, exhibit A.



I dunno who this meta knight player is, but he's either a tier whore, or it's a perfect example that you would never see this shit in Street Fighter 4.

People bitch about Brawl, but after seeing AE and that piece of shit's at EVO, consider me a fan. This Vermanubis fellow is my hero.

Also, I can see why Meta Knight's so dumb. Not only is he mobile, damaging and fast along with the ability to actually gank you, but his sword in tandem with how small and mobile a target he is makes him near unpunishable. He is the lamest play character I've ever seen who doesn't have fireballs or limbs. I saw Meta doing nothing but play keep away until he could land a stupidly easy gank.

Seriously, this is a weak Meta and I can STILL see how bullshit he is. Here's to this fucker getting banned.

#54 mmKALLL

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:10 AM

This meta is not weak, it's just that Vermanubis is strong in comparison. Top 10000 Meta Knight against top 5 Ganondorf. And in Tampora 2 (a Finnish tournament last summer), Riolu came top 9 out of like, 40-50 participants. Using Ganondorf. And he isn't even close to top 9 in the Power Rankings, plus we had players from Sweden there. He went against the odds, beat everyone on his level with a "handicapped" character and many more. I think this result just goes to prove that really no character in Brawl is unplayably bad. But hey, one tournament and stuff. All characters have their good moves and gimmicks, it's just that all others are generally better or have specialization in their gamestyle.

But obviously there are many better metas out there too, and as long as the meta doesn't plank much, Ganondorf actually has a somewhat usable fighting chance against him. If on the ledge.. It sucks as a Ganondorf, but that is acknowledged in Ganondorf's metagame and there are strategies around it - whereas no Meta player would probably be knowledgeable about Ganondorf's metagame and expect them to use such strategies to prevent planking ahead of time. If it's good, use it. If you can't, figure a way to defeat it.

Well, mobility and attack speed are pretty much given for all the high tiers, not just MK. Marth has better punishment options, has a much faster walk speed (dashing instead of walking limits your options, so this is actually important), a better range and auto-cancelling aerials which do more damage, etc. The thing is, that's only what Marth is good at. Meta Knight is pretty good with all that stuff and plenty others, plus Tornado has a mad priority - it can eat most projectiles without cancelling, Meta Knight has a much better ledge game and gimping ability, and has like, 6 jumps. That equals serious air pressure, and you're always in the air if you've been hit offstage or have to approach when MK is planking.

#55 grandjackal

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:43 AM

I would prefer you use the term matchup instead of meta. The meta emplies the entire game and what sort of strategies work best within it and generally how it's played. Like, Brawl seems to have a metagame that favors very floaty, defensive, and predictive play. The matchup is just how two characters best fight one another. For example, when fighting Ganondorf I would imagine that being in constant movement causes him nightmares. Generally, he just seems to punish foolish movement with huge ranged normals like his flip kick and his stomp, all of which can also kill. Generally he seems to be able to get the most after a forward B, as it forces you on the ground. It reminds me of Tager's Gadget Finger in that it forces the opponent into specific oki (a word I'm sure never occurs in the Brawl world). You basically have to either roll one way, another, or jump after he gets you in this grab, and this leaves you in a more predictable situation than usual, which he has more tools than at neural to hit you with (such as catching a roll behind you with a down Smash, for catching a backroll with another forward B, etc). His spiking also seems really good, especially his down A in the air, since it hits so hard it can basically spike you on solid ground.

He seems most helpless when he's trying to get back on stage, or even when the enemy is off the stage, since he doesn't want to get off stage himself. However, I think a bit of riskiness should be called for when Ganon has people off stage when he has a stock lead, even moreso if they're 1 stock from death. At worst, you screw up and you come back at "unkillable" percentage of damage. Ganon as I know basically has 3 spikes in the air, 2 of which are suicidal. His thunder stomp is a solid one, but if it means you kill the enemy and you're at no risk, there's no reason not to milk it with attempts at doing a forward or down b to send them to hell. Hell, let's say the enemy is off the ledge and you're tied, but at a major disadvantage. Just reset the situation with a suicide attempt.

I dunno, good as this Ganon play is, I just feel there could be more room to be risky with him. Can you cancel a down B from the air with a forward B? If so, that's a tricky suicide dive setup he could attempt if it's to secure him a victory.

#56 dondon151

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:45 AM

I think this result just goes to prove that really no character in Brawl is unplayably bad.

This is a really bad conclusion to make. If your justification is that there is 1 guy in the entire world that manages to be competitive at a high level with a terrible character, then your statement really has no meaning whatsoever because you're just basically saying that skill trumps a matchup chart. That's trivial.

Also in consideration is what is the definition of "unplayable." If your goal is to win tournaments (and not small local tournaments), you're already shooting yourself in the foot by picking a low tier character. You're probably never going to get top 1, top 4, etc. because your character's matchups are just that bad. That constitutes "unplayable" in my book.

Generally he seems to be able to get the most after a forward B, as it forces you on the ground. It reminds me of Tager's Gadget Finger in that it forces the opponent into specific oki (a word I'm sure never occurs in the Brawl world). You basically have to either roll one way, another, or jump after he gets you in this grab, and this leaves you in a more predictable situation than usual, which he has more tools than at neural to hit you with (such as catching a roll behind you with a down Smash, for catching a backroll with another forward B, etc).

You see a lot more of this in Melee. Reason number 14 why Brawl sucks, etc. We just call that a tech chase, though.

Edited by dondon151, 07 October 2011 - 12:47 AM.


#57 Vorena

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:31 AM


Kirby's only good move in melee apart from utilt it seems lol

Darn it, the video time didn't stay intact, oh well. Still, how does one play against Kirby or Pichu for that matter? NO one plays them.

Edited by Coconut&Lime, 07 October 2011 - 07:32 AM.


#58 PKL

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 10:48 AM

Some of the arguments here are lol.

You have to play the game at tournaments to understand why MK is banned. He breaks smash's counterpick system. I have experienced this first-hand. I usually have to think a lot in order to counterpick someone somewhere. Like, I could counterpick this guy who uses peach to frigate but then I have to think that he could have a pocket Metaknight. I could go Rainbow Cruise against a snake, but what If that guy seconds Metaknight and picks him? I got tired of the above things and picked up Metaknight as a secondary. After a while, I found myself using him more and more over my other characters because there is NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT when picking him. Its completely safe to double blind pick him. He has no bad matchups and no bad stages. Hell, no one even goes even with him. -_-

Needless to say, after another while, I got tired of using Metaknight myself and started using my other characters again (Toon Link- main, Marth- secondary) and turned myself into pro-ban when I was REALLY ANTI BAN BEFORE. I especially hate Metaknight in teams. Literally EVERY team in brawl has to have a metaknight. Im a fan of brawl teams but when it comes to character diversity, brawl teams sucked hard. Now, with MK gone, Im expecting to see some very creative team combinations ^^.

Oh, and Im part of the guys that make the matchup chart :p. I write my opinions and findings in each matchup for Toon Link. I havent applied for Marth but I dont think I could contribute that much for marth as my Marth is mostly a carbon copy of european marths >.> unlike my Toon Link which is my own style.

#59 mmKALLL

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:39 PM

"I would prefer you use the term matchup instead of meta."

In that post, I shortened the name "Meta Knight" to just calling him Meta. (although looking back, I didn't capitalize it all the time)

Most command grab specials in Brawl are quite useful, but Ganondorf's is really good. It's a major part of his game, at least.

"This is a really bad conclusion to make."

The very next sentence in my post tells you that I don't still think of making a rule out of an example.

"You're probably never going to get top 1, top 4, etc. because your character's matchups are just that bad. That constitutes "unplayable" in my book."
I guess that's very right, but there still is the chance, as you said. I talked in an earlier post about how high on a level you look at things, though, and mentioned this. If not getting to top 200 worldwide is "unplayable" to you, I guess it is, then.

Edited by mmKALLL, 07 October 2011 - 01:41 PM.


#60 Vorena

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 05:26 PM


Viewer discretion advised. Some language.




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