7 replies to this topic

[Lord Raven]

idk who's opening, snowy is most likely opening but if i can whip something out then i'll stick with that

snowy is rhys, i'm mist. we're arguing hm efficiency

[Tricky Dick]

Just saying, this isn't even fair. Snowy fangasms over RhysxMia. Hence, auto win for MR.

Edited by Kefka, 13 November 2011 - 01:54 AM.

[Lord Raven]

i agree its not but he suggested it

[Snowy_One]

Rhys and Mist, two important and essential units to the formation of any team. Before I start here, I want to establish something right off. I have not read any posts in the Serenes Forests tier lists regarding the placement of these two units (at least not recently enough to remember anything specific). As a result, all the arguments I use here will be my own formed of my own deduction towards the goal of 'least turn count' and not the deductions of the board or directly related to any arguments presented in the tiering topics. These are purely my own deductions. Now, onto the debate.

Mist and Rhys are two essential team-members to the formation and completion of the game. As the primary staff users for the team until your sages promote, they are your only source of non-item healing and the only way of getting more than 10 points of healing without using an elixir. In the early parts of the game (before the ship), Rhys provides essential healing that keeps the lower-leveled team members alive as they press towards the end-goal. In the mid-part of the game, their usability suffers due to sages promoting and a less-strong desire for healing, and the late-game sees them both being, more or less, totally replaced by units who can also wield staves but are stronger in combat.

Let's start from the beginning. Rhys joins at the start of chapter 2 as the only healer on the map. From this point until you gain access to Mist he is the only option for healing (unless you somehow manage to promote Soren before 9, which I doubt is possible even on easy and would certainly require a solo at the least). This becomes important on chapter 4 and such were there are many units on the field and it is harder than normal to keep the entire team up and healthy. His healing will be called on multiple times throughout the chapter in order to keep various units alive, and this will happen again in, more or less, most of the early-game chapters before 9 (where Mist joins). Even if it could be claimed that his healing can be replaced by vulneraries (which I doubt as they cannot be replaced), his healing doesn't waste the action of other units, allowing them to move and kill with less fear of death.

This usefulness continues on into the midgame where he will be useful when fighting off Ravens (stronger heals and not wasting other units turns is very useful when fighting the Ravens). However, soon other units start promoting and this makes Rhys and Mist less essential. A general increase in durability, Sol on some units, sages gaining staves, and such mean the demand for a dedicated healer goes down. This is where Rhys starts to falter. He is not useless though. He will have access to Physic staves which only he (and Mist) can use and are valuable for keeping the party healed due to their ability to heal at long range, as well as access to light tomes and more specifically Purge. Let's look at these two things now.

The physic staves are unique and powerful little staffs. Their range is equal to 1/2 of the users MAG. It is far from unknown that, at equal levels, Rhys has more MAG than any other unit in the game, so Rhys will likely always have the level advantage. Even at level 10/1, Rhys has 16 MAG meaning he will have at least 8 range with the staff. At 20/5, he will have a huge 14 range with the weapon to make it even better. Though these staves cannot be bought, there are three in the game that can easily be acquired without the use of a thief to steal them from a enemy. One in the desert sands on 15, one in a chest on 16, and one in a chest in 27 (I'm not counting the F-chapter one as that will not likely be acquired). Each of these staves has 15 uses as well, meaning that, if we assume 5 uses a chapter, these two can last until chapter 21 on their own. If we factor in that not every turn will require healing and some heals can be done via weaker staffs, 23-25 looks more likely for their breakage, especially since we're looking for fast completion which means less turns to take damage on.

Now for the light magic. Rhys will never be a killer. I'm going to say it now. Even at 20/20 and wielding a speed-band, his SPD will only be ~23. However, Light tomes are so heavy that, even if he has 4 STR, he will only not lose AS from the lightest tomes. 2 from a Shine, and so-forth. Light has low MT as well with a Light tome having only 2 MT (and being the only tome he might not possibly lose AS on). While it would be possible to forge him a tome, assuming we maxed out the MT and dropped the weight to 1, it would cost ~23,000 gold. With such a tome though he would be impressive for single-strike attacks (He maxes MAG at 20/13, has 29 MAG + 7 from tome and a possible +2 min from supports) hitting for 36-38 damage easily per-strike on RES. It would take a Soren well above 20/10 to be able to match that. However, this is costly and Rhys will not likely double. My point isn't about his killing. It is about the fact that Rhys can deal large amounts of damage with his single strike. This means that he can play clean-up or target softener very easily, either taking care of any scrap-enemies or hitting toughies beforehand. Purge is a good way to do this as well. Being a siege tome (one that only he can use), it has a long range and Rhys's substantial MAG means he can make it hurt. Since Siege tomes weigh a lot, doubling with them is less than likely, meaning Rhys's lack of AS doesn't hurt as much when compared to other sages (in a humorous twist, Purge has the lowest weight of any siege tome, despite having a weak user who couldn't possibly negate the AS loss and, even if he could, wouldn't double anyways).

Rhys can also offer some fairly solid supports. Titania, Mia, and Kieran are all high-end units and fire is always a good element. Titania desires all of her supports (Ike, Boyd, Rhys, and Mist) and while Rhys gives her the least, her 'least' is still very good, especially since Titania's endgame MT is a bit lacking so the extra damage is useful. Mia adores the extra boost to her MT as well, especially since she gets a +3 bonus from a A support. Kieran falls into the same group as Titania, with Oscar, Marica, and Rhys. Once again, even though Rhys is the 'worst' it is still far from being awful (having a I.Q. of 130 in a room full of 140's makes you the dumbest there, but that doesn't mean you are dumb).

So there you have it. Rhys is useful in the early-game simply because he allows units to act without healing and keeps them alive, in the mid he's still useful, and in the late he can fall back on physic staves and potent single-strike attacks, that, while not actually killing, still hurt.

[CrashGordon94]

I don't mean to interfere but I'm pretty sure Sages can use Physic.

[Lord Raven]

Rhys and Mist, two important and essential units to the formation of any team. Before I start here, I want to establish something right off. I have not read any posts in the Serenes Forests tier lists regarding the placement of these two units (at least not recently enough to remember anything specific). As a result, all the arguments I use here will be my own formed of my own deduction towards the goal of 'least turn count' and not the deductions of the board or directly related to any arguments presented in the tiering topics. These are purely my own deductions. Now, onto the debate.

I don't understand how there can be more than one interpretation of "least turn count." But okay.

Mist and Rhys are two essential team-members to the formation and completion of the game. As the primary staff users for the team until your sages promote, they are your only source of non-item healing and the only way of getting more than 10 points of healing without using an elixir. In the early parts of the game (before the ship), Rhys provides essential healing that keeps the lower-leveled team members alive as they press towards the end-goal. In the mid-part of the game, their usability suffers due to sages promoting and a less-strong desire for healing, and the late-game sees them both being, more or less, totally replaced by units who can also wield staves but are stronger in combat.

Now this is where you lose me. "Until your sages promote?" Rhys is actually comparable to your Sages, but Mist will never be replaced by your Sages. Except maybe Tormod. But she still has one more move than Tormod. There is enough BEXP to feed Mist little-by-little to have her reach Level 10 and become Mounted to help out. You imply they are being replaced by the Sages, but only Rhys is replaceable here.

Let's start from the beginning. Rhys joins at the start of chapter 2 as the only healer on the map. From this point until you gain access to Mist he is the only option for healing (unless you somehow manage to promote Soren before 9, which I doubt is possible even on easy and would certainly require a solo at the least). This becomes important on chapter 4 and such were there are many units on the field and it is harder than normal to keep the entire team up and healthy. His healing will be called on multiple times throughout the chapter in order to keep various units alive, and this will happen again in, more or less, most of the early-game chapters before 9 (where Mist joins). Even if it could be claimed that his healing can be replaced by vulneraries (which I doubt as they cannot be replaced), his healing doesn't waste the action of other units, allowing them to move and kill with less fear of death.

Chapter 4 is very much a Titania solo, and Rhys does not need to heal much at all here. It is extremely possible to keep the team up and healthy- it is called Shinon with a Vulnerary, since Provoke will lure the attention of every single unit (on top of him being a bow user) and this will allow Ike, Soren, and Gatrie to eat up the scraps if needed. You've even got Gatrie here to bide the time while Titania takes out the boss within 2-3 turns (I think the least is 2, by the way).

Most of the early-game is a Titania solo and all Rhys is doing is hte occassional heal or two. There are many times where you're better off advancing than advancing and attacking simply because of durability concerns, and the fact of the matter is that Rhys cannot advance effectively and a Vulnerary does what he does but without having to take care of a weak unit. You need all the units you can get here, and Rhys cannot advance with your units as effectively (and also causes a hindrance to your advance due to his low move) either.

This usefulness continues on into the midgame where he will be useful when fighting off Ravens (stronger heals and not wasting other units turns is very useful when fighting the Ravens). However, soon other units start promoting and this makes Rhys and Mist less essential. A general increase in durability, Sol on some units, sages gaining staves, and such mean the demand for a dedicated healer goes down. This is where Rhys starts to falter. He is not useless though. He will have access to Physic staves which only he (and Mist) can use and are valuable for keeping the party healed due to their ability to heal at long range, as well as access to light tomes and more specifically Purge. Let's look at these two things now.

Ravens don't do nearly enough damage to warrant him being necessary. Granted, this is a point against Mist as well, but Marcia can easily take care of most of the Ravens and if not Marcia, then you have Titania and other units to weaken them. The healing makes this a good way to boost Mist's EXP, by the way, since you don't need much more than +14 HP/turn anyway. Rhys does this thing called "overkill" and he doesn't have any long-term benefits to offset it.

He can't use Physic staff at base and he sure as hell isn't healing enough to get him to C Staff anyway- you're not only better off using Mist to heal so she can hit "mounted healer" faster but WEXP is slow as shit in this game. And there isn't enough to heal that warrants Rhys being used so much.

The physic staves are unique and powerful little staffs. Their range is equal to 1/2 of the users MAG. It is far from unknown that, at equal levels, Rhys has more MAG than any other unit in the game, so Rhys will likely always have the level advantage. Even at level 10/1, Rhys has 16 MAG meaning he will have at least 8 range with the staff. At 20/5, he will have a huge 14 range with the weapon to make it even better. Though these staves cannot be bought, there are three in the game that can easily be acquired without the use of a thief to steal them from a enemy. One in the desert sands on 15, one in a chest on 16, and one in a chest in 27 (I'm not counting the F-chapter one as that will not likely be acquired). Each of these staves has 15 uses as well, meaning that, if we assume 5 uses a chapter, these two can last until chapter 21 on their own. If we factor in that not every turn will require healing and some heals can be done via weaker staffs, 23-25 looks more likely for their breakage, especially since we're looking for fast completion which means less turns to take damage on.

You're arguing in favor of Rhys, not Physic staffs.

Mist averages 12.5 Magic at 10/1. She also has 3 more move than Rhys when you compare at 10/1, which is more than enough to offset 3-4 extra range because her move allows that range to add up to be much, much wider over time.

Now for the light magic. Rhys will never be a killer. I'm going to say it now. Even at 20/20 and wielding a speed-band, his SPD will only be ~23. However, Light tomes are so heavy that, even if he has 4 STR, he will only not lose AS from the lightest tomes. 2 from a Shine, and so-forth. Light has low MT as well with a Light tome having only 2 MT (and being the only tome he might not possibly lose AS on). While it would be possible to forge him a tome, assuming we maxed out the MT and dropped the weight to 1, it would cost ~23,000 gold. With such a tome though he would be impressive for single-strike attacks (He maxes MAG at 20/13, has 29 MAG + 7 from tome and a possible +2 min from supports) hitting for 36-38 damage easily per-strike on RES. It would take a Soren well above 20/10 to be able to match that. However, this is costly and Rhys will not likely double. My point isn't about his killing. It is about the fact that Rhys can deal large amounts of damage with his single strike. This means that he can play clean-up or target softener very easily, either taking care of any scrap-enemies or hitting toughies beforehand. Purge is a good way to do this as well. Being a siege tome (one that only he can use), it has a long range and Rhys's substantial MAG means he can make it hurt. Since Siege tomes weigh a lot, doubling with them is less than likely, meaning Rhys's lack of AS doesn't hurt as much when compared to other sages (in a humorous twist, Purge has the lowest weight of any siege tome, despite having a weak user who couldn't possibly negate the AS loss and, even if he could, wouldn't double anyways).

What you are saying is that "Rhys' offense sucks." Mist with a Sonic Sword or a forged sword will easily have better offense than Rhys for many reasons, by the way. The little competition for that Sonic Sword helps too, and adding the fact that Mist can have some degree of offense actually sweetens the deal.

Forging Rhys a max Mt Light tome that only he can use is a massive hindrance against your team- it allows for a lot less funds flexibility (you can buy a _ton_ of weapons and forges with that money) and at least if we forge for Mist, she can trade it back and forth between other members of your team. Comparing this to Soren is further flawed, because you are comparing his 20/20 offense (an offense he will NEVER achieve). She can become a Mage killer and can do some damage against physical enemies... in fact, she can REACH enemies in the first place, easily better than what Rhys can say. Rhys with Siege tomes also blows because he doesn't have the movement to fully take advantage of them- haven't you seen my pro-Tormod arguments where you have Siege tomes? The only chapters where a Siege tome is useful is also a chapter where you need a bunch of movement to make full use of it. As it stands, Rhys doesn't have the ability to OHKO Archers/Snipers with siege tomes or the ability/durability to do very much against Shiharam.

Every other mage and unit in general does more with their double attack- a lot more, tot he point of killing- than Rhys does with a single attack. Mist does about as much, in fact, and can get into killing range if she uses a Sonic Sword. And, I would liek to reiterate FOR emphasis- Mist does not have a monopoly on Swords, so it is very easy for her to trade forges around. Rhys' forges are for him and for him only, and he is barely making use of a forge to begin with since his movement doesn't allow his offense to keep up.

Rhys can also offer some fairly solid supports. Titania, Mia, and Kieran are all high-end units and fire is always a good element. Titania desires all of her supports (Ike, Boyd, Rhys, and Mist) and while Rhys gives her the least, her 'least' is still very good, especially since Titania's endgame MT is a bit lacking so the extra damage is useful. Mia adores the extra boost to her MT as well, especially since she gets a +3 bonus from a A support. Kieran falls into the same group as Titania, with Oscar, Marica, and Rhys. Once again, even though Rhys is the 'worst' it is still far from being awful (having a I.Q. of 130 in a room full of 140's makes you the dumbest there, but that doesn't mean you are dumb).

Titania and Kieran are two units he cannot keep up with, and Mia is not great by any stretch of the word. Kieran and Titania also have better units to be supporting, whereas Mia is still not good at all since Sword users are generally not that great unless they can make good use of Sonic Sword.

Mist can support with Titania and Jill, two units she doesn't have a hard time keeping up with (especially after promotion) and get a total of +5 defense from them. She can have them both by Chapter 20 (B Titania A Jill) and she can easily get a +2 Atk on top of that. Rhys has no such benefit, and this only furthers the gap between Rhys and Mist; Jill and Titania don't have much better they need to be supporting anyway. And if not Titania? We've got Mordecai, our ace Smiter (we'll need Smite A LOT) who gives her +2 Atk/Def on top of Jill's +1 Atk/+3 Def, so +3 Atk/+5 Def from supports.

Mist doesn't have much competition either. She helps others' durability and her own becomes pretty decent- Rhys' supports are all from his Fire affinity, and his only practical support is Mia who... only gives him Atk and Hit.

So there you have it. Rhys is useful in the early-game simply because he allows units to act without healing and keeps them alive, in the mid he's still useful, and in the late he can fall back on physic staves and potent single-strike attacks, that, while not actually killing, still hurt.

However, Mist can make epic use of Rescue later on before Elincia comes and she can make good use of the Sonic Sword. Her durability isn't the pits like Rhys' is and her Offense/Defense are easily fixed by supports. Rhys cannot say any of those things, and he will have difficulty keeping up even in some early-game chapters. There is no contest.


By the way, not mentioning Mist when you're trying to prove Rhys is better than Mist is FUCKING RETARDED

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 24 November 2011 - 02:23 PM.

[Snowy_One]

I don't understand how there can be more than one interpretation of "least turn count." But okay.

As I am not a LTC debater, I do not know the specific plans or strategies used for an efficient playthrough. I understand the goal and I understand the player will take actions specific towards that goal (such as entering into a risky situation with the single-goal of a quick seize instead of clearing out foes for example), but I do not know the specifics.

Now this is where you lose me. "Until your sages promote?" Rhys is actually comparable to your Sages, but Mist will never be replaced by your Sages. Except maybe Tormod. But she still has one more move than Tormod. There is enough BEXP to feed Mist little-by-little to have her reach Level 10 and become Mounted to help out. You imply they are being replaced by the Sages, but only Rhys is replaceable here.

Is not Mist as well? The main reason for having any staff-user on the team is to provide healing, which is something that the sages can do as well. Except unlike Rhys or Mist, they have combat utility as well. Mist's STR is simply too low for her to be a viable attacker (at max level with full supports, she only has 21 STR. This is ignoring her getting the needed ranks for silver and lacking any sort of skill or other advantage to make up for it, so melee is out. The SS is her only real offensive potential), and Rhys is too slow for most tasks. Mist's one healing advantage is that she can use her mounted movement to stay with the group and not use physic staves as much. I doubt the chapters will last long enough for her movement to allow her to do something unique that couldn't be accomplished by simply having one or two other units capable of staff-usage.

Most of the early-game is a Titania solo and all Rhys is doing is hte occassional heal or two. There are many times where you're better off advancing than advancing and attacking simply because of durability concerns, and the fact of the matter is that Rhys cannot advance effectively and a Vulnerary does what he does but without having to take care of a weak unit. You need all the units you can get here, and Rhys cannot advance with your units as effectively (and also causes a hindrance to your advance due to his low move) either.

Not true. Most of the early game progress is a Titania solo. She will be the one clearing the path for Ike and the others. However, she will NOT be the only fighter and I would expect that having a team that picked up the scraps during the earlier chapters instead of just letting Titania rush ahead would be higher-leveled and thusly have a easier time in the later parts of the game.

Ravens don't do nearly enough damage to warrant him being necessary. Granted, this is a point against Mist as well, but Marcia can easily take care of most of the Ravens and if not Marcia, then you have Titania and other units to weaken them. The healing makes this a good way to boost Mist's EXP, by the way, since you don't need much more than +14 HP/turn anyway. Rhys does this thing called "overkill" and he doesn't have any long-term benefits to offset it.

There are also no downsides either. Also, staff EXP is fixed, so while this healing may be good for Mist's, it is equally good for Rhys's EXP. Also, are you really saying 'I would rather ignore having a healer on my team and facing the ravens with wounded units instead of having a healer and severely reducing any risk of death'?

He can't use Physic staff at base and he sure as hell isn't healing enough to get him to C Staff anyway- you're not only better off using Mist to heal so she can hit "mounted healer" faster but WEXP is slow as shit in this game. And there isn't enough to heal that warrants Rhys being used so much.

It only takes 14 heals to level Rhys from D to C weapon ranking to get him able to use physic staves. You would have to be a ultra-prude on the healing to somehow not get that between Rhys's join time and the time the first staff shows up. Just healing once a turn will almost certainly get you to that rank. In fact, I would say this is a huge mark in Rhys's favor since Mist only has a smaller window to level her staff rank up from E all the way to C to use physics. If we are really rushing along, even if she heals once a turn, she simply won't get enough chances to heal before the first staff comes, meaning there will be a distinct time when Rhys can use the staff and Mist can not. Physic staff healing >>>>> movement (especially since Rhys does NOT need to be directly adjacent to the unit, which means he can take safe locations or heal units Mist would not have been able to reach). Remember that Mist's mounted movement only matters if the chapter lasts long enough for it to form an accumulated advantage. Plus, how is she getting the Exp to promote, while Rhys apparently can't get the chances to heal to level up to C-rank? She doesn't have the Staff-Exp there (or else Rhys would be C-rank), so that only leaves Bexp. But if the chapters are going so quick and the team is, apparently, so strong as to not need a healer, wouldn't the Bexp be better spent on a non-healer unit since they are, apparently, superficial? I mean, a Jill three or four levels higher may not be needed, but it beats the crap out of dumping it onto a healer unit who won't even be used apparently.

Mist averages 12.5 Magic at 10/1. She also has 3 more move than Rhys when you compare at 10/1, which is more than enough to offset 3-4 extra range because her move allows that range to add up to be much, much wider over time.

Only if the chapter drags on. And remember, it is limited by terrain as well while the staves range is not, which is a huge point in Rhys's favor.

What you are saying is that "Rhys' offense sucks."

What I am saying is 'Rhys won't likely double, but still deals a lot of damage with his single strike'. Against a foe that is slow enough to be doubled or fast enough to not likely be doubled, it matters.

Mist with a Sonic Sword or a forged sword will easily have better offense than Rhys for many reasons, by the way. The little competition for that Sonic Sword helps too, and adding the fact that Mist can have some degree of offense actually sweetens the deal.

Firstly, the SS doesn't even exist until chapter 18. That's basically half of Mist's existence that she doesn't even have the damned weapon. Secondly, it's not that great. Only 25 uses before breaking. You would have to devote a significant portion of Mist's turns to attacking in order for it to even mean something and even then she can only net 12 kills before you need to use the Hammerine on it or else it breaks. In order for her to have any melee offense, she basically needs both of her supporters in range of her as well. The main point of Mist is that she can move about the field freely to heal. One of the things that comes with this is that, unlike Rhys, she simply cannot choose to put herself beside someone while doing this (well, she CAN, but then she would be doing the same thing as Rhys would at which point Rhys wins. Plus, since one of her supporters is Boyd, she would have to stay in-range of him at all times, which cuts her movement advantage down to only 1 (Boyd's movement lead over Rhys), which is a big blow against her.)

Forging Rhys a max Mt Light tome that only he can use is a massive hindrance against your team- it allows for a lot less funds flexibility (you can buy a _ton_ of weapons and forges with that money) and at least if we forge for Mist, she can trade it back and forth between other members of your team. Comparing this to Soren is further flawed, because you are comparing his 20/20 offense (an offense he will NEVER achieve). She can become a Mage killer and can do some damage against physical enemies... in fact, she can REACH enemies in the first place, easily better than what Rhys can say. Rhys with Siege tomes also blows because he doesn't have the movement to fully take advantage of them- haven't you seen my pro-Tormod arguments where you have Siege tomes? The only chapters where a Siege tome is useful is also a chapter where you need a bunch of movement to make full use of it. As it stands, Rhys doesn't have the ability to OHKO Archers/Snipers with siege tomes or the ability/durability to do very much against Shiharam.

Then it is a good thing I didn't say to forge him a light tome. With his magic, does he even really need it? The thing that is holding him back is his AS, not his MT. Also, trading weapons back and forth? Are you NUTS?! Doing that wastes one of the units turns that could have been spent actually progressing just so that Mist could kill a enemy unit! It would be much better to just forge her a actual sword than go through the trading process (I am adverse to that as well, but that is another argument). Why would I need a mage-killer anyways? Most of my mounted units can wield their weapons well enough to kill mages fine on the PH and the EP they can likely get a kill or two with their throwing weapons. This is ignoring that Mist getting a kill then trading a weapon would take up at least two to three turns just for ONE kill! At that point I would rather just take the damage then have someone heal it, especially since that potentially means EXP for multiple units instead of just Mist.

And no, I haven't seen your pro-Tormod arguments. I am trying (failing, but still trying) to avoid the tier topics since they are full of incessant whiners who nitpick to the point of single turns. However, consider that siege tomes are heavy enough to make it so that most units won't likely double with them anyways. That means Rhys using a siege tome is no worse than, say, Calill using one since they don't double.

Every other mage and unit in general does more with their double attack- a lot more, tot he point of killing- than Rhys does with a single attack.

Never denied it.

Mist does about as much, in fact, and can get into killing range if she uses a Sonic Sword. And, I would liek to reiterate FOR emphasis- Mist does not have a monopoly on Swords, so it is very easy for her to trade forges around. Rhys' forges are for him and for him only, and he is barely making use of a forge to begin with since his movement doesn't allow his offense to keep up.

Rhys's main damage comes from his MAG stat and ability to target RES, not his weapons anyways. So why would I forge one for him?

Titania and Kieran are two units he cannot keep up with, and Mia is not great by any stretch of the word. Kieran and Titania also have better units to be supporting, whereas Mia is still not good at all since Sword users are generally not that great unless they can make good use of Sonic Sword.

Guess what Mia can do? She can make good use of the Sonic Sword! In fact, I would argue better use of it! Let's assume a 10/1 Mia against a 10/1 Mist, both dusting up their MAG for SS usage. Mia has 7 Mag and Mist has 12. The SS has a MT of 10 making their MT 17 and 22 respectively. Both can get at least +4 from supports around 19 (18-20ish) making their final total 21 vs. 26. Mia can wrath, however, to boost up her critical rate while Mist is static. Let's assume both double just for comparison ease as well. Now, I picked a lance knight who can attack at 1-2 range in 19 for compare (I expect him to be slightly above-average). He has 5 RES and 31 HP. Both units kill him on the double (Mia dealing 16 damage and Mist 21), but Mia will have a 65-70% chance once wrathed to kill him outright, sparing her both the wasted SS use and the potential counter attack. Since Mia has vantage as well she can potentially kill enemies outright on the EP if she ever drops below 1/2 health while Mist is stuck taking the first blow for her kill. Yes, the resource investment is 'higher' for Mia, but that is not the point. The point is that she can make good use, potentially better use, of the SS than Mist. Guess what that means?

As for Titania, she has only four supports. ALL of her supports are good supports! While you can argue that a Ike/Mist or Boyd/Mist is better for her than a Rhys support, that doesn't change that all her support choices are good. Besides, in a effeciency PT, I would expect for it to not matter as much. Boyd, Ike, and Rhys are all foot units and, aside from Ike who is needed to seize, will all struggle to keep up with her. Mist is not a combat unit any way you slice it (even at 20/20 with full supports, she has poor defenses and no skills to make up for it), so there is a good chance she won't be near Titania either.

As for Kieran... he has three support choices. Oscar, Marcia, and Rhys. All it would take is Oscar going Ike/Tanith to remove all doubt about if he will take Rhys if he has the chance or not.

However, Mist can make epic use of Rescue later on before Elincia comes

Rescue is a B-ranked staff that isn't around until chapter 20 and has 3 uses. What are you using it for that is so key?

and she can make good use of the Sonic Sword.

As can both Tanith and Mia.

Her durability isn't the pits like Rhys'

Without supports, her durability is exactly the same as Rhys's and helped out only via miracle.

is and her Offense/Defense are easily fixed by supports. Rhys cannot say any of those things, and he will have difficulty keeping up even in some early-game chapters. There is no contest.

Only if we have Titania rush through the early game with no time or effort put into leveling up the early team, then suddenly screech to a halt, power up Mist with Bexp and ignore using it on combat units, progress at a pace somehow too fast for Rhys to not level his staves up to C before the staff but slow enough to have Mist's combat potential with the SS to actually mean something while keeping Jill and Titania in range of Mist at all times (meaning no risky situations or flying over terrain, which is surely a turn-hinderance). Seems like you're saying 'if I heavily favor Mist, she will be better than Rhys' not 'Mist will be better than Rhys on average'.

[Lord Raven]

As I am not a LTC debater, I do not know the specific plans or strategies used for an efficient playthrough. I understand the goal and I understand the player will take actions specific towards that goal (such as entering into a risky situation with the single-goal of a quick seize instead of clearing out foes for example), but I do not know the specifics.

This doesn't make sense.

Is not Mist as well? The main reason for having any staff-user on the team is to provide healing, which is something that the sages can do as well. Except unlike Rhys or Mist, they have combat utility as well. Mist's STR is simply too low for her to be a viable attacker (at max level with full supports, she only has 21 STR. This is ignoring her getting the needed ranks for silver and lacking any sort of skill or other advantage to make up for it, so melee is out. The SS is her only real offensive potential), and Rhys is too slow for most tasks. Mist's one healing advantage is that she can use her mounted movement to stay with the group and not use physic staves as much. I doubt the chapters will last long enough for her movement to allow her to do something unique that couldn't be accomplished by simply having one or two other units capable of staff-usage.

The other reason is to boost Resistance (which is something thta you will want to do in Ena's chapter considering the sleep staff Bishop, and once more in Chapter 26 because the Meteor Sage actually doesn't have completely shitty hit), use the Rescue staff, and easy Physic staff in case you will ever need Physic.

However, the problem with the Sages is the same problem with Rhys; their movement is low. Mist can easily catch up to your frontliners and heal them, or she can heal throughout the map with a Physic staff off of more movement than rhys. Rhys needs a total of 4 more Magic than Mist at all times to offset Mist's Physic range for only the first turn. Mist's physic range grows much faster per turn than Rhys due to her movement, and she can get the hell out of there if she needs to. Rhys doesn't have this advantage at all, nor do any of the Sages (save Tormod, except tormod does not have Canto).

You say the SS is her only potential for damage, but in the hypothetical scenario where Mist has the Sonic Sword, Rhys' most common weapon has 2 Mt with small chance of doubling. If he wants to use a more powerful tome, his chance of doubling is almost nothing. His offense is almost negligible if you do a 10/1 promotion, which is very comparable to Mist.

Not true. Most of the early game progress is a Titania solo. She will be the one clearing the path for Ike and the others. However, she will NOT be the only fighter and I would expect that having a team that picked up the scraps during the earlier chapters instead of just letting Titania rush ahead would be higher-leveled and thusly have a easier time in the later parts of the game.

What do you mean early game progress? Obviously my post was a bit of hyperbole since Tits can't do it by herself. She is most of the combat though and saves many turns without needing a heal. Most combat is on the enemy phase early on too because some of your units can't withstand more than 3 hits; Vulneraries actually replace Rhys a decent amount, and Rhys can only live through 1 hit before dying. He is on average 2HKO'd early game and lacks the avoid to compensate. He is doing very little overall throughout the early game same a couple heals- and not enough for a full level.

There are also no downsides either. Also, staff EXP is fixed, so while this healing may be good for Mist's, it is equally good for Rhys's EXP. Also, are you really saying 'I would rather ignore having a healer on my team and facing the ravens with wounded units instead of having a healer and severely reducing any risk of death'?

There are no downsides, but that doesn't mean Rhys is helping. This chapter is a chapter for Rhys/Mist to get built up a bit faster (granted they're only getting 55 EXP at the very very best) but the fact remains that what they are doing is not essential. Rhys and Mist are only here for the EXP; the Ravens seriously don't do nearly enough damage for their healing to be of any significance.

It only takes 14 heals to level Rhys from D to C weapon ranking to get him able to use physic staves. You would have to be a ultra-prude on the healing to somehow not get that between Rhys's join time and the time the first staff shows up. Just healing once a turn will almost certainly get you to that rank. In fact, I would say this is a huge mark in Rhys's favor since Mist only has a smaller window to level her staff rank up from E all the way to C to use physics. If we are really rushing along, even if she heals once a turn, she simply won't get enough chances to heal before the first staff comes, meaning there will be a distinct time when Rhys can use the staff and Mist can not.

You would be surprised at how much easier it is to say "just heal once a turn for every turn between Rhys' join time and Chapter 15" because Rhys still has a hard time hitting a C weapon level because he can't get those "only" 14 heals. Healing from Rhys is not necessary simply because Rhys is in danger constantly early on AND later on, except later on you don't progress slowly enough for him to be of use and early on he dies too easily to be anywhere near the front. Mist cannot heal once a turn either, but at least her overall payoff with BEXP is better than Rhys'. You need to wait until Rhys promotes to be using a Physic staff, and you need BEXP to get there (I will cover this point later).

Once Mist promotes, she is good to go with Physic staffs. She gets C staffs immediately upon promotion.

Furthermore, you are saying that "if you just heal once a turn with Rhys you can easily hit C Staffs"... except a similar thing applies to Mist too except I still acknowledge her shortcomings in doing so by herself. Both are promoting at 10/1 and Physic Staffs aren't even particularly useful until you hit 10/1.

Physic staff healing >>>>> movement (especially since Rhys does NOT need to be directly adjacent to the unit, which means he can take safe locations or heal units Mist would not have been able to reach).

I've covered this above. Rhys is required to have 4 more magic than Mist for this to be true that way he can compensate for his 2 less move. And finally, this gap only widens over time, because on turn 2 she can physic much better due to being much further along in the map, she he'll need 8 more magic to compensate... then 12, then 16, etc. Chapters may not last very long, but many of them are longer than 3 turns. In other words, Physic Staff healing with movement >>>>> Physic staff healing.

Remember that Mist's mounted movement only matters if the chapter lasts long enough for it to form an accumulated advantage. Plus, how is she getting the Exp to promote, while Rhys apparently can't get the chances to heal to level up to C-rank? She doesn't have the Staff-Exp there (or else Rhys would be C-rank), so that only leaves Bexp. But if the chapters are going so quick and the team is, apparently, so strong as to not need a healer, wouldn't the Bexp be better spent on a non-healer unit since they are, apparently, superficial? I mean, a Jill three or four levels higher may not be needed, but it beats the crap out of dumping it onto a healer unit who won't even be used apparently.

So you are using my logic against me without actually understanding my point. I covered the "chapters last long enough" thing because chapters tend to last more than 3 turns. But yes, you are getting BEXP to promote both of them; there would be absolutely no reason not to do so. While Mist requires more BEXP her payoff due to being mounted and having tangible supports is much better than Rhys not being mounted and having intangible supports.

I am not saying they "won't be used," I am saying that they are too frail and weak early on to be used and later on they're a bit more necessary. Chapter 17 has a bunch of enemies in the defend chapter you'd want to heal against (and mages you'd want to use a Ward for), Chapter 19 has a bunch of hard-hitting Crows, Chapter 21 actually has some hard hitting enemies here and there too. In fact, raising Mist to a B is not particularly hard (hint: blow the Ward staff, it's actually really useful in Chapter 21). Using a Rescue staff while mounted is a very good trade-off because you can rescue people from a decent range + you can move to a further place to "warp" people to. It's basically like Elincia except a couple chapters earlier.

And in this statement you are more or less stating that Rhys and Mist suck. Stop that. Rhys sucks and Mist has the potential to not suck overall, and that is what I am arguing. 9 Levels for a Ward user who wants to use the Rescue staff is a very good deal, because Ward is a C-ranked staff and that (unlike heal) will be guaranteed to see use every turn.

Only if the chapter drags on. And remember, it is limited by terrain as well while the staves range is not, which is a huge point in Rhys's favor.

Movement is limited by terrain? While I know it is, there isn't enough terrain in the chapters to completely negate Mist's mounted advantage. In fact, it only matters towards the endgame (ie, Chapter 28 and 26); the rest will be perfectly in Mist's favor because there is not nearly enough terrain to give Rhys any sort of advantage in staff range.

What I am saying is 'Rhys won't likely double, but still deals a lot of damage with his single strike'. Against a foe that is slow enough to be doubled or fast enough to not likely be doubled, it matters.

No he doesn't. There are also very few enemies who are fast enough to avoid doubling and slow enough to be doubled by 9.6 Spd at 10/1. There are also very few enemies that will be hit hard by 18 attack from Light (or 20 from Shine). Not enough to make your units ORKO more.

Firstly, the SS doesn't even exist until chapter 18. That's basically half of Mist's existence that she doesn't even have the damned weapon. Secondly, it's not that great. Only 25 uses before breaking. You would have to devote a significant portion of Mist's turns to attacking in order for it to even mean something and even then she can only net 12 kills before you need to use the Hammerine on it or else it breaks. In order for her to have any melee offense, she basically needs both of her supporters in range of her as well. The main point of Mist is that she can move about the field freely to heal. One of the things that comes with this is that, unlike Rhys, she simply cannot choose to put herself beside someone while doing this (well, she CAN, but then she would be doing the same thing as Rhys would at which point Rhys wins. Plus, since one of her supporters is Boyd, she would have to stay in-range of him at all times, which cuts her movement advantage down to only 1 (Boyd's movement lead over Rhys), which is a big blow against her.)

Supports are 3-range, Snowy. This means that it takes her 4 turns to get away from Boyd, and this also gives her 4 turns where hse is within Titania and Boyd if she supports them, or 4 turns where she is within Jill and Boyd. Rhys' offense is a trainwreck and Mist's is comparable, so I'm not sure why we are arguing offense here; Mist can double at the very least and if she manages to work her way up to C Swords.. then Sonic Sword actually beats Light by a longshot. But their offenses still really blow and it's stupid to even compare.

Then it is a good thing I didn't say to forge him a light tome. With his magic, does he even really need it? The thing that is holding him back is his AS, not his MT. Also, trading weapons back and forth? Are you NUTS?! Doing that wastes one of the units turns that could have been spent actually progressing just so that Mist could kill a enemy unit! It would be much better to just forge her a actual sword than go through the trading process (I am adverse to that as well, but that is another argument). Why would I need a mage-killer anyways? Most of my mounted units can wield their weapons well enough to kill mages fine on the PH and the EP they can likely get a kill or two with their throwing weapons. This is ignoring that Mist getting a kill then trading a weapon would take up at least two to three turns just for ONE kill! At that point I would rather just take the damage then have someone heal it, especially since that potentially means EXP for multiple units instead of just Mist.

His AS and his Mt are killing him. 10/1 he has 18 Atk and less than 13 AS.

Trading weapons back and forth is easy. The point is to trade them when it's convenient you fool, and the fact that she at least has the option to do so is better than Rhys because she's not hogging as many resources. Finally, I was suggesting a way she could build up to C; killing Mages isn't hard for anyone but at least she'll have passable frontline offense with a Sonic Sword if she kills enough Mages. Doubt she will though (she needs 25 swings to pull it off... yeah right) but it's still better than what Rhys can do... which is not changing anything to an ORKO and not kill anything.

And no, I haven't seen your pro-Tormod arguments. I am trying (failing, but still trying) to avoid the tier topics since they are full of incessant whiners who nitpick to the point of single turns. However, consider that siege tomes are heavy enough to make it so that most units won't likely double with them anyways. That means Rhys using a siege tome is no worse than, say, Calill using one since they don't double.

You're a fucking retard if you're thinking that. The 20 pages of Jill vs Marcia are to the point of nitpicking single turns because they are the second and third best characters in the game so you have to nitpick to figure out which one is better.

Rhys using a siege tome is worse than Tormod using one because he doesn't have the move to make use of it. There are some very large maps and sometimes you really need someone with a lot of move and 10-range to really do anything useful with a siege tome. Tormod's main use is to make travel safe for fliers in a certain chapter because he has enough Atk with Siege tomes to OHKO; Rhys does not have this advantage. That is why Purge is almost useless on Rhys, because he does very little of significance with siege tomes. I'm merely using Tormod as an example.

Rhys's main damage comes from his MAG stat and ability to target RES, not his weapons anyways. So why would I forge one for him?

Because 18 attack sucks more dick than Monica Lewinsky.

Guess what Mia can do? She can make good use of the Sonic Sword! In fact, I would argue better use of it! Let's assume a 10/1 Mia against a 10/1 Mist, both dusting up their MAG for SS usage. Mia has 7 Mag and Mist has 12. The SS has a MT of 10 making their MT 17 and 22 respectively. Both can get at least +4 from supports around 19 (18-20ish) making their final total 21 vs. 26. Mia can wrath, however, to boost up her critical rate while Mist is static. Let's assume both double just for comparison ease as well. Now, I picked a lance knight who can attack at 1-2 range in 19 for compare (I expect him to be slightly above-average). He has 5 RES and 31 HP. Both units kill him on the double (Mia dealing 16 damage and Mist 21), but Mia will have a 65-70% chance once wrathed to kill him outright, sparing her both the wasted SS use and the potential counter attack. Since Mia has vantage as well she can potentially kill enemies outright on the EP if she ever drops below 1/2 health while Mist is stuck taking the first blow for her kill. Yes, the resource investment is 'higher' for Mia, but that is not the point. The point is that she can make good use, potentially better use, of the SS than Mist. Guess what that means?

Stop. Stop.

For the love of all that is sane stop.

First off you assume Mia is special enough to get a Dust. What happened to Tormod who can OHKO with Siege tomes with large move? What happened to Mist who can get +1 range? Why are you not even using it on Rhys, the fucker you're arguing in favor for when he's still only getting a 10/1 promotion? They need all the magic they can get, and Mia getting a Dust just for a Sonic Sword is retarded because the Dust is acutally useful and the Sonic Sword... only has 25 uses. In fact, for all the shitting on the Sonic Sword you've been doing earlier, you sure as hell are adamant about giving Mia the resources to use it... even if it's only 12 kills.

With a Dust, Mist has 14 Magic you nut. That's 21 vs 28. Furthermore, a 10/1 Mia has 5 Mag on average with one Spirit dust; that's 19 vs 28. If we assume 2 spirit dusts, that's 21 vs 30. Now, they're both generally doubling everything that you can easily kill with a Sonic Sword anyway so... who needs Wrath?

Furthermore, why is Mia so special that she is getting Wrath? Wrath is the easiest way for Ike to kill Ashnard, and depriving yourself of that to give Mia some bullshit use of Sonic Sword over a unit with Magic (or for that matter fucking Tanith) is fucking retarded. Furthermore, using an enemy that is actually pretty weak to prove your point is doing no one favors; what about the Generals/Paladins? Just because Mia has 30% growth doesn't mean that she is bombtacular with the Sonic Sword. Mia should just stick to what she normally does; try to kill Rhys and hopefully suck my dick 3 years later.

As for Titania, she has only four supports. ALL of her supports are good supports! While you can argue that a Ike/Mist or Boyd/Mist is better for her than a Rhys support, that doesn't change that all her support choices are good. Besides, in a effeciency PT, I would expect for it to not matter as much. Boyd, Ike, and Rhys are all foot units and, aside from Ike who is needed to seize, will all struggle to keep up with her. Mist is not a combat unit any way you slice it (even at 20/20 with full supports, she has poor defenses and no skills to make up for it), so there is a good chance she won't be near Titania either.

Rhys is a poor support choice. On Turn one, Titania will have moved 9 spaces and Rhys only 5-6 which already places her out of his support range. Ike is at least getting ferried like 25% of the time, Mist has movement, and Boyd... well Boyd's not really a good choice in general. Rhys is absolutely none of the above and the fact that she moves out of his range on Turn 1 says a lot more about Rhys' poor movement and how badly that hinders his support choices than anything else.

As for Kieran... he has three support choices. Oscar, Marcia, and Rhys. All it would take is Oscar going Ike/Tanith to remove all doubt about if he will take Rhys if he has the chance or not.

Why would Oscar go Ike/Tanith? Oscar wants Ike/Kieran because Oscar and Kieran are on exactly equal footing, whereas Tanith isn't guaranteed to be with Oscar due to the simple fact that she's a Pegasus. Oscar/Kieran also comes way before Oscar/Tanith. Kieran also has Marcia (which I know contradicts the flying thing but he is more likely to be closer to Marcia than Rhys).

Rescue is a B-ranked staff that isn't around until chapter 20 and has 3 uses. What are you using it for that is so key?

Getting Tormod to kill Bertram faster in Chapter 26, getting Ike to Ashnard in Endgame, and just in general teleporting Ike. We also have Hammerne to make it 7 uses instead of 3, and generally this is the closest thing we have to a warp staff so... Rescue can do wonders.

Without supports, her durability is exactly the same as Rhys's and helped out only via miracle.

Yeah, so the one who is mounted gets the advantage here -_-

Only if we have Titania rush through the early game with no time or effort put into leveling up the early team, then suddenly screech to a halt, power up Mist with Bexp and ignore using it on combat units, progress at a pace somehow too fast for Rhys to not level his staves up to C before the staff but slow enough to have Mist's combat potential with the SS to actually mean something while keeping Jill and Titania in range of Mist at all times (meaning no risky situations or flying over terrain, which is surely a turn-hinderance). Seems like you're saying 'if I heavily favor Mist, she will be better than Rhys' not 'Mist will be better than Rhys on average'.

Yes, so if we play efficiently (which you are exaggerating; that is exactly how efficiency goes in the early-game. They're low-risk, low-turn clears when you use Titania). Most of the effort to leveling up the early team is through BEXP, so I don't see why you're moaning; there's enough BEXP in HM for your early team to have decent levels.

I am saying that "if I heavily favor Mist and I heavily favor Rhys, then Mist gives me a much better return for just as much input." You just failed at trying to make fun of my points.

Keeping Jill and Tits near Mist isn't hard, since most of the time Jill isn't the flier going on the primary offensive. There are times when she is joining Marcia, but many times she is staying back relative to Marcia. Jill is far more viable for Mist than Titania is for Rhys.