397 replies to this topic

[Venusaur]

Seaking is pretty much complete garbage, lolriffic 65 base SA, and 92 Attack to use on the likes of Secret Power and Return. It's got SOME bulk, but 80/65/80 isn't wowing anyone. Plus, 68 speed means it's pretty slow to boot. It deserves to stay in Bottom.

As for Golduck, it takes forever to show and has pretty low stats, excluding it's 95 SA, which is merely good at that point in the game. Sure, STAB Surf is nice, but there's so many other Water types you could use that Golduck just doesn't stand out.

Wobbuffet needs to rise for sure. Bulky, with Mirror Coat to dish out OHKOs without many levels invested in it. Wynaut even gives you Encore, which opens up possibilities for teammates to set up. It may not be amazing, but it certainly deserves better than Bottom.

What are Volbeat and Illumise doing in Low? Corphish does way more than those two ever will (insta-evolution is a possibility), and they just don't seem to do anything notable at all compared to Wobb.

[Aquaman]

I think Voltorb needs to rise more.
I just can't put my finger on it

[dondon151]

Wobbuffet needs to rise for sure. Bulky, with Mirror Coat to dish out OHKOs without many levels invested in it. Wynaut even gives you Encore, which opens up possibilities for teammates to set up. It may not be amazing, but it certainly deserves better than Bottom.

Complete disagreement on this one. Not only does Wobbuffet come late (after 6 badges) and Wynaut come even later (Mirage Island is way too chancy and also out of the way), but relying on Counter and Mirror Coat to dish out damage is not an efficient strategy when you can just try to go first and KO outright... with like, any other Pokemon.

Edited by dondon151, 15 February 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Aquaman]

Still.
Lavaridge egg says hi.

Wobbufett is kinda stinky ingame, but it could rise over Volbeat.

Wait
Volbeat could rise
Signal beam
Tail glow
Thunderbolt
QA.
AA

[dondon151]

who the fuck is going to use a level 5 wynaut after ~5-6 badges

volbeat's spatk is ass

[Aquaman]

Baton pass shenanigans.

Tail glow-pass to something like Sceptile/Golduck.
And save PP.

Only problem is that Volbeats durability is shaky.

[grandjackal]

Baton pass shenanigans.

Tail glow-pass to something like Sceptile/Golduck.
And save PP.

Only problem is that Volbeats durability is shaky.

Wow, that sounds like a completely unimpressive thing to actually baton-pass INGAME, much less suck at it in terms of every way imaginable. Nevermind the only mon that will ever baton pass is Magic Mirror Espeon in 5th gen UU.

Edited by grandjackal, 16 February 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[Venusaur]

Complete disagreement on this one. Not only does Wobbuffet come late (after 6 badges) and Wynaut come even later (Mirage Island is way too chancy and also out of the way), but relying on Counter and Mirror Coat to dish out damage is not an efficient strategy when you can just try to go first and KO outright... with like, any other Pokemon.

Well, there is a Wynaut egg in Lavaridge (hard to raise, though), but I could see it at least at the very bottom of Low. It's something you only bring out for Gym Leaders and such, and it can take down, say, Juan's Kingdra (provided it doesn't DT). It's not much, granted, but still better than Illumise at least.

Also, Corphish needs to rise to at least above Volbeat, as it can be instantly evolved via Rare Candy, provided you catch it at Lv. 29-30. Then you've got something with 90 SA STAB Surf right before a route that constantly rains, and its Dark type lets it take on Tate&Liza easily in R/S, and is unkillable by two of their Pokemon in Emerald.

Then again, is this an absolute efficiency tier list, or based on something different? I don't see any rules in the OP, so we can't assume absolute efficiency, but if it is, I'll have to think about quite a few Pokemon's positions.

[Manix]

Baton pass shenanigans.

Tail glow-pass to something like Sceptile/Golduck.
And save PP.

Only problem is that Volbeats durability is shaky.

Only problem? Wow. Baton Passing is one of the most useless strats for ingame. Heard of X Items? They do that job, and better. Because then you don't have to rely on something that dies when looked at funny. Not to mention it can't do anything much else at all. Ever.

No. It sucks, end of story. There is no debate here.

I can definitely support Corphish above Volbeat. Hell, I'd say it could beat Illumise as well (TM dependency and horrible stats vs something that actually has decent moves and stats). Possibly even Nincada, but I don't know about that for sure.

[Levant Fortner]

I can definitely support Corphish above Volbeat. Hell, I'd say it could beat Illumise as well (TM dependency and horrible stats vs something that actually has decent moves and stats). Possibly even Nincada, but I don't know about that for sure.

TBH, I can see Corphish > Nincada as well.

[Sho.M.the.Fallen]

While I admit Goldeen is pretty bad, I do not see how lv 30 goldeen with Good rod or lv 40 seaking with super rod on safari with ok bulk and ok atk deserves to be on the same tier as shit like Horsea. Even the inferior Gyarados Seaking is, is way better than scrubs like Clamperl.

Also while I'm at it, Keckleon could rise. It comes with good lv and its stats arent exactly the worse out there. Also it ability could find some use

[Soren37]

Kecleon can be great for gyms because of the passive. Get hit by that type move, and then suddenly everything's not very effective against you. It's really nice. I still hate Lavaridge because I have to swap out so much to try and get type advantage.

Other than unsubstantiated facts about Kecleon, I feel that Tentacool could stand to drop. While they're common if you Surf or fish in Slateport, it's only redeeming features are it's SDef and Speed, and even then, other Pokemon can put that to better use. Once it becomes Tentacruel, it gets great SDef and respectable Spd, and Clear Body is great to prevent annoying things like Screech or Fake Tears. However, Liza and Tate can take out Tentacruel and it also loses to Wattson, it can still take out Flannery and Roxanne, but if we're playing seriously, then we have Mudkip to deal with all of those gyms. While it gets some awesome moves fairly early (Hydro Pump at level 55), it's movepool only gets 4 STAB, and you're probably going to get rid of two of them. It's an excellent HM Slave (Cut, Surf, Waterfall, and Dive), Zigzagoon and Wingull exist as well, and even then, We're probably going to be giving Surf to Mudkip because of how awesome it is. Cut can be given to Zigzagoon, so you really only need it for Waterfall and Dive.

It can get some great TMs, such as Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb, but Ice Beam is highly contested, and Poison's always seemed fairly weak to me at least. If being able to take 4 HMs gets into High Tier, then I have to call the list into a lot more question.

[Venusaur]

While I admit Goldeen is pretty bad, I do not see how lv 30 goldeen with Good rod or lv 40 seaking with super rod on safari with ok bulk and ok atk deserves to be on the same tier as shit like Horsea. Even the inferior Gyarados Seaking is, is way better than scrubs like Clamperl.

Also while I'm at it, Keckleon could rise. It comes with good lv and its stats arent exactly the worse out there. Also it ability could find some use

Goldeen has a Lv. 10-30 range that it can be caught at, and Seaking requires the Super Rod. Either way, it isn't going to be able to do much, maybe a bit in the Magma Hideout (if even that), but it really isn't notable anywhere else. Its physical moveset is almost non-existant (Essentially non-STAB Secret Power/Return, Flail is bad with 68 Speed) and it's terrible SA wise. It isn't even around for 3/4 of the game, and when it IS around, it's terrible. At least Seadra has a usable Sp. Atk stat and can outspeed things. Goldeen's right where it should be.

Kecleon's an interesting one, it's got good Sp. Def and a decent Attack stat, along with a gigantic Special movepool that's a bit disappointing with 60 SA. You're forced to encounter at least one, and it comes at a respectable level... but it's only really useful during Tate and Liza, as you can hit it with your own Dark type move to make it lol at their Psychics. I don't know if it can scrape the bottom of Low, but it's at least more useful than Illumise (what in the hell do those two bugs do to get in Low?).

[dondon151]

I feel that Tentacool could stand to drop.

Tentacool is a pretty damn good in-game Pokemon; you must be crazy. Dual STABs are nice when they're mixed, come relatively early (you can't get Tentacool until after you get 5 badges anyway, which is when you can get Surf and Sludge Bomb), and run off passable attacking stats on both sides. Water and poison also have pretty extensive neutral coverage (only Tentacruel resists both) and Giga Drain and Ice Beam round out the coverage moves.

The only reason to lower Tentacool would be that it comes kind of late, but Magnemite and Zangoose come even later yet are mysteriously higher up, and most of the Pokemon below upper mid are thoroughly mediocre (with some exceptions because some of those Pokemon are in the wrong place).

Also 2 huge problems with Kecleon are that it's slow and it loses its STAB if it gets hit by almost anything.

Edited by dondon151, 17 February 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[grandjackal]

Tentacool is a pretty damn good in-game Pokemon; you must be crazy. Dual STABs are nice when they're mixed, come relatively early (you can't get Tentacool until after you get 5 badges anyway, which is when you can get Surf and Sludge Bomb), and run off passable attacking stats on both sides. Water and poison also have pretty extensive neutral coverage (only Tentacruel resists both) and Giga Drain and Ice Beam round out the coverage moves.

The only reason to lower Tentacool would be that it comes kind of late, but Magnemite and Zangoose come even later yet are mysteriously higher up, and most of the Pokemon below upper mid are thoroughly mediocre (with some exceptions because some of those Pokemon are in the wrong place).

Not disagreeing, but you catch Zangoose the route before Meteor Falls. You can get it quite a bit earlier than the cool.

Also 2 huge problems with Kecleon are that it's slow and it loses its STAB if it gets hit by almost anything.

I've had like no using of Kecleon, but I remember picking it up once. I recall it having an absolutely terrible starting movepool.

[Sho.M.the.Fallen]

its a shame we cant just use old rod in dewford to get tenta. expect we can

[Aquaman]

We can.
Though, having to rely on poison sting is meh.

Solrock up.
It does well against Flannery
Alright to Norman
Rock throw/slides winona and overheat/fire blasts Skarmory
Shadow ball/Rock slides off good att against T+L

Meh to Juan

Slides Sidney and Fire blasts Shiftry/cacturne
SBs Phoebe
RSlides Glacia and can explode
(Move tutor, pacifidlog)
RSlides Drake and goes boom.
Neutral against Wallace/Steven
And goes boom for heavy damage.

[dondon151]

Not disagreeing, but you catch Zangoose the route before Meteor Falls.

Oh, right, I've my route numbers confused. I always think that Zangoose and Absol show up in the same place.

its a shame we cant just use old rod in dewford to get tenta. expect we can

Hmm, you're right. I've just always written off the Old Rod but it seems that you can get level 8-9 Tentacool in Dewford. It's very bad until it gets Bubblebeam at level 25, though.

[Aquaman]

TEntacool can whittle down Brawlys Medidite.
That thing spams focus punch
It does take forever to poison to kill it, if you use poison sting....
But, it could work.
It has many resistances and has giga drain among its tm movepool.

[grandjackal]

TEntacool can whittle down Brawlys Medidite.
That thing spams focus punch
It does take forever to poison to kill it, if you use poison sting....
But, it could work.
It has many resistances and has giga drain among its tm movepool.

Giga Drain sounds like a very silly thing to put onto it. It doesn't exactly have superpowered Sp Atk, though it would in theory be great against other waters with it. Issue being it has 5 PP.

As for Meditite...Anything can kill that Meditite. It's not exactly something to smile about.