397 replies to this topic

[dondon151]

Giga Drain is not a terrible idea, however, it provides coverage against only a few things (and generally neutral Sludge Bomb hits water types for about the same amount of damage, with the only exception being dual types with ground and rock, in which case Surf hits for acceptable neutral damage). So you're really only gaining a significant improvement against Relicanth and Whiscash. On the other hand, Giga Drain is such a poor attack anyway - its 5 PP means that it's a terrible primary offensive move on a grass type, so you might as well stick it on a random Pokemon for coverage.

[grandjackal]

Well, it could also help against that Ice woman in E4. Tentacruel I don't think is a hyper-offensive type outside of Surf when it's good (AKA do what any water pokemon does with Surf), and it being really good special defensively against the likes of her while having Giga Drain against a majority of fellow water types can at least help you stall her out at times if the time calls for it. Suppose it would work well on him.

Need to make note of that for when I get him lategame. Hey man, when do you get Giga Drain again? Been too long since I've played gen 4.

[Aquaman]

Its fast.
Its sp attack is good.
Its sp def is good.

It comes early.

Clear Body prevents random screech/intimidates/w-e from working.

Against Brawly, it can KO medidite and lvl up.

Against Wattson, its fucked.

Against Flannery, it may be useful at lvl 25.

Against Norman, it has to confuse/poison spam and try to KO that focus punch abusing Slaking.

Against Winona, if its fast enough, it can do a lot of damage with ice beam.

Against T+L, it can down Xatu and one of the others before going down.
And possibly poison the others.

Juan-
Giga drain could help.
Sludge bomb is not really contested.
Yeah, it could do something.

E4-
Sidney-
IB grass, giga drain Crawdaunt/Sharpedo, and soak Absol/Mightyena.

Phoebe-poison/confuse stall or take out the ones w/o TB/EQ.

Glacia-stall with sludge bomb, giga drain maybe.

Drake-
X special/speed when shelgon is up, and IB FTW.

Wallace-stall
Giga drain
Poison
Takes out Ludicolo

Steven-
Ice/Water vs Claydol
Poison vs Cradilly
Water vs Armaldo
Confuse/stall rest

And, that's it


Giga drain comes from below the ghost temple.
Go south, then talk to lady in front of trees next to berries.

IB is in boat, just go there, weave through the maze to get to the captains room.
Find key
Open door for IB inside.

Edited by The Insane One, 17 February 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[grandjackal]

Solrock >Ralts
Skarmory>Wingull
Cacnea>Aron

[Aquaman]

Solrock >Ralts
Skarmory>Wingull
Cacnea>Aron

Ok

Solrock> Ralts is questionable

Skarmory>Gull
Ok

Cacnea>Aron
Ok
Good Stab Needle Arm.

[grandjackal]

Ok

Solrock> Ralts is questionable

I still don't understand why people like Ralts. Enlighten me.

Cacnea>Aron
Ok
Good Stab Needle Arm.

You misunderstand how much Aron sucks, and how much Cacnea doesn't need Needle Arm to be better than it. Aron needs way too much exp to have terrible offense, and it gets trolled by the lots of electricity, water and ground types the game almost immediately throws at you, and keeps throwing at you for almost it's entirity. It never gets better either.

Cacnea at least stops sucking eventually.

[Aquaman]

I still don't understand why people like Ralts. Enlighten me.

I would, but you'd rip it to shreds.
I can't say much, due to immense bias that would skew it.

You misunderstand how much Aron sucks, and how much Cacnea doesn't need Needle Arm to be better than it. Aron needs way too much exp to have terrible offense, and it gets trolled by the lots of electricity, water and ground types the game almost immediately throws at you, and keeps throwing at you for almost it's entirity. It never gets better either.

I understand


Cacnea at least stops sucking eventually.

[dondon151]

I still don't understand why people like Ralts. Enlighten me.

Because Gardevoir is super amazing?

Consider that when you would get Solrock, you would also have a Kirlia. Granted, Gardevoir's EXP group is much slower than Solrock's, but that doesn't make for a difference of more than a few levels, and Solrock doesn't really have the means of ripping opponents to shreds while Gardevoir does. Gardevoir's lategame is also a lot better.

[Aquaman]

Solrock is decent when you get it.
Although it slows down later on.

Gardevoir, has TB+Psychic and calm mind to obliterate wallace/juan/glacia/drake.
And Winona, and the ocean, and everything but sidneys Shiftry/cacturne.

Of course, getting it there is a bit slow, but its easier than Aron, and Aggron is mediocre lategame.
Gardevoir is like Magikarp, but slightly better imo.
Ralts is a bit underwhelming, but it can handle itself
Kirlia is alright
Gardevoir is amazing.

Solrock starts decent, but that speed and typing kind of make it merely decent later on.

Against Winona, it has rock moves.

Against T+L it has Sball

Against Wallace/Juan, it can SB for neutral damage, or explode.

Against Sidney, it can FB his grasses, rock slide his pure darks, and rock slide/explode om his water-darks.

Against Phoebe, its Sball.

Against Glacia, its Rock Slide , then when water moves come in, explode.
Against Drake, its Rock Slide the flying/dragons, and SB against Flygon.
Explosion is an option.

Against SÞeven, FB steels, SB claydol/meþagross, SB the fossils, and explode if in a pinch

[Levant Fortner]

I don't really see going boom as a good idea against Steven since it's NVE on everything but Claydol...

[grandjackal]

Because Gardevoir is super amazing?

Consider that when you would get Solrock, you would also have a Kirlia. Granted, Gardevoir's EXP group is much slower than Solrock's, but that doesn't make for a difference of more than a few levels, and Solrock doesn't really have the means of ripping opponents to shreds while Gardevoir does. Gardevoir's lategame is also a lot better.

Solrock does actually have ways to rip opponents apart though. It's base stats aren't bad, and Rock Throw+Confusion is a good enough basis. Going south of Meteor Falls and taking Rusturf Tunnel back to the main route will give Solrock more than enough exp to start becoming insane as my playthrough log itself shows. You cannot argue this is a good direction to take since on the way we get HM Strength, which we need to get eventually anyways.

As for Ralts, the thing you seem to not mention is the entire time she's Ralts: the sucky part that's awful and wish it death upon. Yes we could have a Kirlia, but when should I care when Kirlia is nothing special, and it's sucked this entire time up until then?

I will not question Ralts' better lategame as Gardevoir, but by the time Solrock starts to suck, Rayquaza/Groudon shows up. Can just dump him, and nothing bad ever happened with him on our team. Ain't it glorious how perfect his timing is?

[CR-S01]

I think Cascoon could stand to rise. It's not the best, but Bottom Tier is really harsh. Walling Slaking is better than what some of the low tier Pokemon do overall.

[Aquaman]

Explosion has like 200 power, and halves enemy def with the damage.

Look it up.

Goooooogle is your friend.

Solrock may rise though, its solid for the entire game, and only starts slowing down at the Champion battle.

Ralts, IDK about it rising.
If dondon or someone can persuade me, I'll raise it.

Also, Heracross could rise.
It has a huge attack stat, fighting stab, and can train in the ocean on the way to pacifidlog/mossdeep/sootopolis/victory road.

It is durable, has a decent base lvl, and there aren't a lot of threatening flying types left.
Also, bulk up/swords dance, and rock tomb help a little.
It gets Megahorn, and has a decent stat spread for a safari pkmn.

Pinser could rise, but idk anything about it.

[Levant Fortner]

Explosion has like 200 power, and halves enemy def with the damage.

Look it up.

Goooooogle is your friend.

Solrock may rise though, its solid for the entire game, and only starts slowing down at the Champion battle.

Ralts, IDK about it rising.
If dondon or someone can persuade me, I'll raise it.

Also, Heracross could rise.
It has a huge attack stat, fighting stab, and can train in the ocean on the way to pacifidlog/mossdeep/sootopolis/victory road.

It is durable, has a decent base lvl, and there aren't a lot of threatening flying types left.
Also, bulk up/swords dance, and rock tomb help a little.
It gets Megahorn, and has a decent stat spread for a safari pkmn.

Pinser could rise, but idk anything about it.

I hate having to repeat myself, but Explosion is only hitting Claydol for neutral, and if it gets Reflect up before you go boom, well, too bad.

[dondon151]

There's nothing wrong with sacrificing Solrock via Explosion in a battle in which he doesn't do particularly well. Even a resisted Explosion hurts quite a bit.

Solrock does actually have ways to rip opponents apart though. It's base stats aren't bad, and Rock Throw+Confusion is a good enough basis.

Its Atk is merely above average, its primary attacking moves are not that strong (Rock Slide only has 112.5 BP after STAB and does not have perfect accuracy), it's slower than Gardevoir, and it doesn't have any ways to boost its Atk. Gardevoir can set up on any Pokemon primarily attacking with special attacks and sweep.

As for Ralts, the thing you seem to not mention is the entire time she's Ralts: the sucky part that's awful and wish it death upon. Yes we could have a Kirlia, but when should I care when Kirlia is nothing special, and it's sucked this entire time up until then?

Ralts is difficult, but not as much as you make it out to be. First, at a lower level (< level 10 or so), differences in base stats are less prominent because of how stat calculation works. Second, there is an entire gym full of fighting type Pokemon that Ralts can train on in addition to a smattering of Pokemon weak to psychic type attacks, like Wurmple and Gulpin. Third, Solrock also requires a bit of dedicated training when you first obtain him, because he shows up at something like level 14 when most of your Pokemon should be closer to level 24.

I will not question Ralts' better lategame as Gardevoir, but by the time Solrock starts to suck, Rayquaza/Groudon shows up. Can just dump him, and nothing bad ever happened with him on our team. Ain't it glorious how perfect his timing is?

Then what was the point of using Solrock in the first place? You can't give him credit for something stupid like being able to be replaced by a better Pokemon.

Edited by dondon151, 18 February 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[grandjackal]

There's nothing wrong with sacrificing Solrock via Explosion in a battle in which he doesn't do particularly well. Even a resisted Explosion hurts quite a bit.

Is it weird I'm not a fan of blowing yourself up? I guess I like staying alive to much. That exp is like crack to me.

Its Atk is merely above average, its primary attacking moves are not that strong (Rock Slide only has 112.5 BP after STAB and does not have perfect accuracy), it's slower than Gardevoir, and it doesn't have any ways to boost its Atk. Gardevoir can set up on any Pokemon primarily attacking with special attacks and sweep.

Again, not arguing Gardevoir has a better lategame.

Ralts is difficult, but not as much as you make it out to be. First, at a lower level (< level 10 or so), differences in base stats are less prominent because of how stat calculation works. Second, there is an entire gym full of fighting type Pokemon that Ralts can train on in addition to a smattering of Pokemon weak to psychic type attacks, like Wurmple and Gulpin. Third, Solrock also requires a bit of dedicated training when you first obtain him, because he shows up at something like level 14 when most of your Pokemon should be closer to level 24.

1. Most of those "fighting types" you mention also happen to be Meditites for the most part, who are not weak to Confusion like your typical fighting type. They also aren't exactly flimsy.

2. Solrock will already be a full fledged team member by the time you get back to Mauville with it's leveling speed. He levels so fast I'd hardly even call it "dedicated". Ralts s a bigger dedication than Solrock is. At best, your other mons would miss a single level. MAYBE two if we want to stretch it. I;d rather have a fully functional additional member.

Then what was the point of using Solrock in the first place? You can't give him credit for something stupid like being able to be replaced by a better Pokemon.

I'm merely pointing out that it's lategame isn't that much a problem because it can't be a negative. The point of using him is because usng him is good. When he stops, stop using him (especially if he can be easily replaced with better). Simple as that. In fact, don't you use this argument a lot in other lists?

[Levant Fortner]

There's nothing wrong with sacrificing Solrock via Explosion in a battle in which he doesn't do particularly well. Even a resisted Explosion hurts quite a bit.

Fair enough.

EDIT: Can someone please explain what Anorith's doing in mid?

Edited by Metal King Slime, 19 February 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Aquaman]

Hmmm

How about.

Crawdaunt up.
It's Sharpedo, but with lower speed.

[Espinosa]

I don't think so. It learns Crunch like 30 levels later than Sharpedo, which means it might not even learn it until E4 (where it would be great for Phoebe), and it gets no physical STAB so it's inferior to a whole lot of other water-types with decent speed.

[Aquaman]

Return
AA
BB
Dig.
Ancientpower
SB
It's physical moves aren't that horrible.

As for ingame pre e4.

Surf
IB
AA/BB/Secret Power/Sludge bomb
AA/BB/SP/SB