397 replies to this topic

[Mekkah]

holy shit The Gentleman could your arguments be any more vague and irrelevant

I skimmed through some pages and it seems you're all missing out on some very key points.

1) Some Pokemon just suck in every aspect, and trying to Grandjackal them does not make them look better. Spoink is not good at anything, Shedinja is not good against most things, Volbeat and Illumise are terrible, Gulpin is useless, etc.
2) Base stats pretty much don't matter at the start of the game, and make more and more of a difference as the game goes on and stat differences become clearer. At L5, Pokemon stats are very close to each other, and differ by only a few points. Later, you get huge stat gaps. But generally when people refer to base stats when arguing how good something is in like the 2nd gym, I just facepalm. What's more important is Pokemon's types (mostly offensively), their level (level is a huge part in the damage calculation process), and their moves.

For example, Zangoose's moves are pretty good. There's quite a few Normal moves he can learn easily (Slash, Secret Power), and with a single Swords Dance he can rip through some trainers right away even untrained. He comes fully evolved and with adequate stats (at a point where base stats kinda matter), so his underleveledness can be excused.

3) If you're not going first and OHKOing, you're doing it wrong. What takes up the most time when playing Pokemon? When that Zubat gets a chance to Supersonic you, when that random Koffing gets to use Smog and poisons you, generally when whatever you're fighting has a chance to move. Sometimes it's reasonably unavoidable (like vs boss battles), but you don't want to spend your time playing a fair fight against every generic beyond the 2nd/3rd gym or so. That's just super annoying. Anything that does not accomplish a regular generic trainer beatdown better have something real good to compensate for it.

[Aquaman]

I understand, and I'm back to have a bit to say about mid-game mons!

So, some say that there are no good mid-game mons, but those are just grinders that love to grind a BAgon 20 lvls before the e4.

So, quick Look

Zangoose-
Ruby only, but it's pretty awesomke with SD/QA/Slash, and it has access to SB/AA/BB/DIg/Iron Tail if need be!.
Shame it's only in Ruby.

Seviper-
Not as good as Zangoose, but it's got an HP pad, and high att/sp att and a decent movepool
Crunch/Poison Tail/Giga Drain/Iron Tail/Flamethrower/EQ.

Solrock-
THis thing is really, really underrated.
First of all, it's type is kinda unusual, but it's movepool is pretty bro and it get natural ROCK SLIDe in time for WINONA if you have a small team.
Also makes good use of SB/EQ TMs. Overall it's solid and can cheese Flan/Winona/T+L a bit and explode on the others.

Skarmory-
Steel WIng tm on it, and it's good to go.
Never dies, and it can toxic+fly.
Also, damn good ingame offense.

Torkoal-
In comparision with the previously listed 'mons, it's anal relapse.
But, it's not horrible due to curse/body slam/EQ/Sludge bomb/Flamethrower.
Curse+Body SLam/Return+Fire Stab hits a bunch of mons for at least nuetral damage mid-game.
IMO, it's like Zealot-just pick up and use for a period then dump afterwards.

SPoink-
Sp Tanl+Psybeam and all 'dat.
Pretty decent if you're willing to give it shock wave+theif and etc.

Kecleon and Absol look good too, but I can't articulate them as well.

[eclipse]

. . .just how many Earthquakes are we assuming?

[Levant Fortner]

. . .just how many Earthquakes are we assuming?

. . .I'd say it's not only that, but the mention of Iron Tail, which I honestly don't see as that good a move. And besides, it's Grandjackal 2.0 we're talking about here.

Edited by Golden Cucco, 11 August 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[Espinosa]

Earthquake is not really such a fabulous move in Hoenn, though it hits Steven's Metagross (that's it I think and you decide if you can take a Meteor Mash counter after one EQ) effectively in RS. Anything can take it; say, anything that doesn't already know Return or have a good STAB.

[Aquaman]

Uh.

Geez.

How does FRLG keep getting attention and this one doesn't?

Anyways, due to playtesting, KEcleon could rise.
->NIce base lvl.
-Stats are alright.
-Movepool is standard for normal types.
-While it doesn't do anything of note while it exists, it's not really a hindrance.
-Shadow Ball/Return/AA/Psychic are probobly all it wants to do combat with.
->It's ability is unique, and can help it take another hit in some matchups.

[Espinosa]

It kinda sucks that he's slow and usually loses STAB on whatever it was going to use (usually normal-type moves) after being hit. Were you successful in getting around that difficulty?

[grandjackal]

Nice to see people are trying to be the "cool kids" by saying my name and following it up with some form of "lol" statement, but come on guys.

Seviper-
Not as good as Zangoose, but it's got an HP pad, and high att/sp att and a decent movepool
Crunch/Poison Tail/Giga Drain/Iron Tail/Flamethrower/EQ.

Statistically not that great, and these moves don't just show up on it, not to mention competition for them for which I'm sure there are many better users. Crunch is also of minimal use, considering Psychics eat Seviper alive.

Solrock-
THis thing is really, really underrated.
First of all, it's type is kinda unusual, but it's movepool is pretty bro and it get natural ROCK SLIDe in time for WINONA if you have a small team.
Also makes good use of SB/EQ TMs. Overall it's solid and can cheese Flan/Winona/T+L a bit and explode on the others.

I think it also starts with Confusion and starts near a bunch of fighter using trainers, along with the fact it has a fast leveling speed, so it's start is pretty good all things considered.

Skarmory-
Steel WIng tm on it, and it's good to go.
Never dies, and it can toxic+fly.
Also, damn good ingame offense.

Steel Wing has little coverage, and until Fly (which technically takes 2 turns for it to actually happen, so Fly in itself isn't that good, much less Toxic+Fly), that's the only move he really has. I'd hardly call his offense "damn good". Ok at best.

Torkoal-
In comparision with the previously listed 'mons, it's anal relapse.
But, it's not horrible due to curse/body slam/EQ/Sludge bomb/Flamethrower.
Curse+Body SLam/Return+Fire Stab hits a bunch of mons for at least nuetral damage mid-game.
IMO, it's like Zealot-just pick up and use for a period then dump afterwards.

Zealot. You're funny. That comparison isn't even close. Torkoal, in retrospect since I kinda went overboard last I talked about him, has the worst speed problem in the universe. Fire isn't that great in this gen either. There's the occasional Skarmory and Roselia, and then he's done. Even then, with Roselia there's always the issue of getting Stun Spore'd and then parahaxed to delay you even further. Same point made for anything that can sleep or confuse you. He's also absolutely useless lategame, what with the psychic twins gym, a gym dedicated entirely to water, and then an elite 4 that loves confusion, resists fire, or otherwise mauls him.

Kecleon and Absol look good too, but I can't articulate them as well.

Kecleon and Absol are terrible for almost the exact same reasons: Terrible stats and movepool. Kecleon has it worse since his speed is terrible.

[Espinosa]

Absol isn't that bad, and I'd call the allocation of bases for him really good for in-game, it just wishes it could have a physical STAB. Otherwise it's like a mini-Zangoose.

[Aquaman]

Due to DA and SHo discussing Barboach's merits in IP chat, should it rise?

[Espinosa]

Due to DA and SHo discussing Barboach's merits in IP chat, should it rise?

It's worse than a good half of Low tier, so I'd advise against it.

[Aquaman]

It's worse than a good half of Low tier, so I'd advise against it.

lvl 31 EQ.

Same STAB as MUDKIP.

[Espinosa]

It's not around to help with Roxanne, nor with Wattson, nor with Flannery (it would have a type advantage against all three of them). Earthquake isn't really a very useful move in Hoenn, especially for a Pokemon that evolves late and doesn't really excel anywhere. Pikachu, Heracross, Ninjask, even Slakoth and Aron are all superior to it, so needless to say, it shouldn't be a tier above them (or more). Now whether or not these Pokemon belong to Low tier is a different question.

[Aquaman]

Evolution in the late 20s is kinda "ok"

And it can be caught with an old rod around the meteor falls area.

Also, Ninjask is solid but gets 1-2HKO'd easily.

Pikachu may rise.
Aron is solid stat-wise but its type sucks so badly as does its movepool(kinda)
Slakoth has the problem of grinding until evo due to traunt then traunt messing up Slaking at times.

HEracross has a good case.

[Espinosa]

Bulbapedia only indicates Good/Super Rod as ways of catching Barboach (and I checked every route manually to be sure). You'd have to be really patient even if you did catch one, because an Old Rod is very underlevelled at that point of the game, and crappy bases mean it might be OHKO'd by Overheat in intense sun in the next gym. It doesn't have Mudkip's advantages of being available forever, being useful against 3 of the 4 early gyms (and decent enough against Brawly if soloing), collecting EVs on the way, evolving early, etc. It's just a lacklustre water-type. I do think it should be in the same tier with Corphish, except probably it's Corphish who needs to move down.

[Bookoostrikes]

Spoiler -

Lol guys what about meowth and smeargle?

But in all honesty, I think Wailmer should be moved up closer to where Corphish is. They get around the same joining time (with Corphish evolving 10 levels earlier) however, unlike Corphish, Wailmer isn't going to likely get killed by a strong STAB move unlike Corphish and surprisingly, Wailord is faster than Crawdaunt by 5 or 10 base. Crawdaunt might not even get a chance to set up swords dance or attack, while Wailord won't die and is able to set up a Water spout and possibly amnesia so that all super effective moves are pretty much going to take off 2/5 to 1/2 of his HP the most because of how types work in this gen. Wailord gets better STAB coverage while Craudaunt is left with no physical STAB moves and has to rely on TM's/HM's for actual moves until crabhammer, plus his movepool isn't much to brag about and doesn't get good moves until later on, when Wailord gets water spout 1 level after evolution if you didn't evolve Wailmer. Plus lol Earthquake.

Against Winona (I apologize for my bad spelling) Wailmer won't die in that gym and is a better user for ice beam due to his better survival and can dish out more damage (except Tropius maybe) but assuming Craudaunt is around, it can deal probably a bit more significant more damage than Wailmer, but probably won't survive as long.
They are both equal around the 7th gym, because most of the PKM are weak to water with Craudaunt having immunity against psychic.
Juan they both can flawlessly take out with Craudaunt having access to swords dance.

However, against the Elite Four is where Wailord starts shining. Sidney's Pokemon are all faster than Craudaunt and can take him out before he gets proper use of brick break, while Wailord isn't dying and only has to fear Cacturne (but Wailord is faster and can probably kill it with ice beam. Wailord and Craudaunt would get equal points against phoebe, but like I said, Craudaunt can't take 2 thunderbolts and won't kill her last Dusclops before it kills it and Wailord can take 3-4 thunderbolts to the face and gets amnesia to tank it out. Glacia, Craudaunt gets some points,but due to his terrible SP.Def and mediocre HP, it's only a matter of time before her Glalies and Waliern take it out with STAB blizzard/Surf. Wailord has no fear with that HP and amnesia of his. Drake destroys Craudaunt with everyone being faster and stronger and can't take more than two STAB moves (Earthquake Dragon Claw) but Wailord gets survival and won't be dying out for a while. But Wailord might bite the dust eventually. Steven Craudant gets Aggron and maybe Skarmory and won't get too far, but Wailord gets Earthquake and like I said wont bite the dust anytime soon. And with Wallace, same as Glacia. His defenses and movepool won't last him too long, but at least he gets to properly damage Ludicolo with Aerial Ace (that's if it survives Giga Drain) Wailord might take a death, but not after he takes out his Tentacreul, Wailord and possibly Milotic with Earthquake.

So, I honestly think Wailmer should place higher and of anything, go above Corphish.

[Aquaman]

Amnesia costs a turn, and Wailords sp def isn't that high.
HP padding as your only defense is shitty lategame.

Crawdaunt has better movepool, typing, and has existing defensive stats other than just massive HP.

Crawdaunt also helps more in the long run with its variety of physical moves, Wailord is just another IB/Surf/Return/filler water type.

Can't see it happening.

[Bookoostrikes]

Hm. When you look at it that way, I guess you're right in a way. Well it was worth a shot. Back to lurking... :D