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Edward (Soul) vs. Zihark (Silver Harpoon)


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#1 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:27 AM

The following debate goes in context to FE10 drafting under the average ruleset:

Drafting:
1. This draft is for 7 players.
2. Ike, Micaiah, Sothe, Geoffrey, the Herons, the Black Knight, and Lehran are free for all to use.
3. The drafting order is reversed for the last round of picks.
4. Haar is banned from drafting.
5. The game will be played on Normal Mode.

Rules:
1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, Rescue and Shove/Smite undrafted characters and NPCs, trade, Escape/Arrive, and transfer items/skills between teams.
2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, opening Doors and Chests, finding hidden items, and giving Blood Tide/Night Tide/White Pool bonuses.
3. Allied and Other units may do as they please without penalty.
4. Defend chapters count the last played Player Phase for turns if the timer is waited out.

Penalties:
1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter (1-6 counts as 2 chapters, and 4-E counts as 5 chapters).

Exceptions:
1. One of Edward or Nolan is free for each of 1-P, 1-1 and 1-2.
2. Volug is free for 1-5.
3. Elincia, Marcia and Nealuchi are free for 2-P
4. Nephenee and Brom are free for 2-1.
5. One undrafted, non-Lucia unit is free for 2-2.
6. One undrafted, 7 move unit is free for 3-1.
7. One undrafted, 6 move unit is free for 3-3.

Due to this new penalty system, I often hear that Edward is not as a high priority as he used to be when he and Nolan weren't free to use from 1-P to 1-2. That, of course, is wrong. He is still second or third priority (losing out to Titania, and maybe Nolan despite their great similiarirties). Edward is always going to be picked before Zihark, and that comes with a reason...

Zihark joins at Ch 1-6 as a promoted unit, a lvl 3 Swordmaster with the following stats:

       Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Zihark   3   30  17  6  22   23  11  13  11    


Would you look at that...this man is 1RKO'ing pretty much everything (barring the Knights and some bosses...which he can kill with a critical). However, that does not undo what Edward has been doing in the 6 chapters before his arrival, ever since the first chapter of the game.

Edward trivializes 1-P, helping Micaiah get some kills of her own and 5-turning it himself.
At 1-1, he, along with Nolan and Micaiah can get through pretty quickly to the exit. Here he gathers some CEXP he wants as well. I might as well mention that he is entitled to Leonardo's Dracoshield, as he does benefit himself alot better than Micaiah will ever.
At 1-2, he pulls a similiar roll, but helping Laura escape this time. He saves a turn here by killing some Fighters on top of the ledge for Laura to go up a turn sooner.
At 1-3, he may help Micaiah save a turn by breaking down the door with the help of the Wind Edge. The rest is just gathering CEXP to raise himself.
1-4 comes by and we get ourselves our first Battle Preparations. Here we are to give him the Energy Drop for an Atk boost and a Max Mt/Crit. Iron sword forge (which I usually name "Cullen", just for the lolz).
So on to the chapter...Sothe and Micaiah clear the North, and the enemies do the rest for them, suiciding to Sothe. Meanwhile, Edward stays at the South, manipulating enemy range a bit as to not get himself killed and starts critikilling the enemies there. Thanks to him, a 4-turn is possible. Make it 5 turns because we are not missing the important Angelic Robe. Next chapter.
1-5: A Defend chapter. Here we see Zihark for the first time. Too bad he's not playable yet.
Anyway, I assume we are buying a Wind Edge from the Shop here, because it'll benefit Edward without being expensive. So in this chapter, all we have to do is wait, and while you're waiting, you might as well do something in your spare time. Why not go into a defensive position up at the ledges and have Micaiah and Edward snipe enemies from above? Edward may already be able to 1RKO a few of them, given the +2 Atk bonus he gets from height advantage- Either that, or you can easily get him to Wrath level without much risks due to very low enemy Hit rates from height disadvantage. There we profit from amazing CEXP gain. Since he's going to be killing most of the enemies there, he can also get the boss kill. :awesome:
1-6: Great, Zihark's here! Oh, what's that? Sothe's taking his Adept so he can finish 1-1 and 2 faster? Of course he is. Sucks to be him. ): As mentioned earlier, Zihark's already promoted with great stats, great offense and decent durability. What does Edward have on him?

By now, Edward should at least be lvl 15. He could've easily gained at least 3 levels in the previous chapter from all those kills including the boss, but I don't want to overly inflate his level, so I went with a lower numer that I got from my drafting experiences with him. With BEXP, we can get him up to one more level he needs for an HP, Str, Spd, Luck and Def procs he wants. Seal. This is what he looks like now:

       Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/1 31  17* 2  19   20  14  12  4    

Well, he has pretty much the exact same concrete durability Zihark does. He's losing out to Zihark in unimportant stats like Mag and Res, and Spd, which doesn't even mattter yet because 20 AS is doubling everything.

I don't think it's a bad idea to give Edward Resolve. It aids his durability and makes him a killing machine combined with Wrath. I know that Micaiah tends to get dibs on Resolve, so I will not discard that possibility and give it to her instead. And because of that, I am not considering the first Angelic Robe to be given to Edward, simply because it will be helping Micaiah more from now on. Edward can go beat around the bush and kill the Knights at the top East corner along with the Archer.

At 1-6-2, Edward Shoves Sothe for a 2-turn on Sothe's part. Edward might as well go gather some CEXP on the bridge on those 2-turns.

1-7: We get a Brave sword, an available Wind Edge at the Shop and a Secret Book. All of these Items are to be given to Edward. The Brave sword is obvious, the Wind Edge affords him 2-range for those pesky Mages and some Archers, the Secret Book is for BEXP purposes only. He doesn'y really need it, but it'll be helpful later on. I would give Edward Resolve this time. He'll be solo-ing the top part, so he really wants this. Micaiah will take Paragon this time. This chapter is a 6-turn in which neither take the advantage, but Edward can for sure be useful and kill the boss for Micaiah.

1-8: Micaiah and Edward switch skills this time. Edward helps here by clearing the enemies to the South.

1-E: Edward gets all the BEXP. This is what he looks like at 1-E's base:

       Level  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/10 40* 24*  2  27   27  17  14  5    

This time around, Edward took the Angelic Robe before BEXP'ing to that level so he can cap HP faster and thereby get to his other stats. Edward is amazing now. I'll assume we buy him a Max Mt/Crit. Steel forge for later on. You'll see...

He keeps Paragon so he can gain CEXP.

Edward simply helps Micaiah go up by killing enemies on the way, including Jarod himself.

At the end of 1-E we have:

       Level  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/12 40* 24*  2  28   28  18  15  6    

Beast.

I'll cover Part 3 later on. As for now, your move...

#2 Groot

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:12 AM

A veteran of the GMs vs a random hyperactive 10 yr old, that just grabbed a sword.......
Hmmmmmm.

Due to this new penalty system, I often hear that Edward is not as a high priority as he used to be when he and Nolan weren't free to use from 1-P to 1-2. That, of course, is wrong. He is still second or third priority (losing out to Titania, and maybe Nolan despite their great similiarirties). Edward is always going to be picked before Zihark, and that comes with a reason...

Zihark joins at Ch 1-6 as a promoted unit, a lvl 3 Swordmaster with the following stats:

   	Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Zihark   3   30  17  6  22   23  11  13  11    


Would you look at that...this man is 1RKO'ing pretty much everything (barring the Knights and some bosses...which he can kill with a critical). However, that does not undo what Edward has been doing in the 6 chapters before his arrival, ever since the first chapter of the game.

Edward trivializes 1-P, helping Micaiah get some kills of her own and 5-turning it himself.
At 1-1, he, along with Nolan and Micaiah can get through pretty quickly to the exit. Here he gathers some CEXP he wants as well. I might as well mention that he is entitled to Leonardo's Dracoshield, as he does benefit himself alot better than Micaiah will ever.
At 1-2, he pulls a similiar roll, but helping Laura escape this time. He saves a turn here by killing some Fighters on top of the ledge for Laura to go up a turn sooner.
At 1-3, he may help Micaiah save a turn by breaking down the door with the help of the Wind Edge. The rest is just gathering CEXP to raise himself.

Well, he is free for 1-p. 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3.

1-4 comes by and we get ourselves our first Battle Preparations. Here we are to give him the Energy Drop for an Atk boost and a Max Mt/Crit. Iron sword forge (which I usually name "Cullen", just for the lolz).
So on to the chapter...Sothe and Micaiah clear the North, and the enemies do the rest for them, suiciding to Sothe. Meanwhile, Edward stays at the South, manipulating enemy range a bit as to not get himself killed and starts critikilling the enemies there. Thanks to him, a 4-turn is possible. Make it 5 turns because we are not missing the important Angelic Robe. Next chapter.

You no want Beastfoe?


1-5: A Defend chapter. Here we see Zihark for the first time. Too bad he's not playable yet.
Anyway, I assume we are buying a Wind Edge from the Shop here, because it'll benefit Edward without being expensive. So in this chapter, all we have to do is wait, and while you're waiting, you might as well do something in your spare time. Why not go into a defensive position up at the ledges and have Micaiah and Edward snipe enemies from above? Edward may already be able to 1RKO a few of them, given the +2 Atk bonus he gets from height advantage- Either that, or you can easily get him to Wrath level without much risks due to very low enemy Hit rates from height disadvantage. There we profit from amazing CEXP gain. Since he's going to be killing most of the enemies there, he can also get the boss kill. :awesome:
1-6: Great, Zihark's here! Oh, what's that? Sothe's taking his Adept so he can finish 1-1 and 2 faster? Of course he is. Sucks to be him. ): As mentioned earlier, Zihark's already promoted with great stats, great offense and decent durability. What does Edward have on him?

By now, Edward should at least be lvl 15. He could've easily gained at least 3 levels in the previous chapter from all those kills including the boss, but I don't want to overly inflate his level, so I went with a lower numer that I got from my drafting experiences with him. With BEXP, we can get him up to one more level he needs for an HP, Str, Spd, Luck and Def procs he wants. Seal. This is what he looks like now:

   	Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/1 31  17* 2  19   20  14  12  4    

Well, he has pretty much the exact same concrete durability Zihark does. He's losing out to Zihark in unimportant stats like Mag and Res, and Spd, which doesn't even mattter yet because 20 AS is doubling everything.

I don't think it's a bad idea to give Edward Resolve. It aids his durability and makes him a killing machine combined with Wrath. I know that Micaiah tends to get dibs on Resolve, so I will not discard that possibility and give it to her instead. And because of that, I am not considering the first Angelic Robe to be given to Edward, simply because it will be helping Micaiah more from now on. Edward can go beat around the bush and kill the Knights at the top East corner along with the Archer.

At 1-6-2, Edward Shoves Sothe for a 2-turn on Sothe's part. Edward might as well go gather some CEXP on the bridge on those 2-turns.

1-7: We get a Brave sword, an available Wind Edge at the Shop and a Secret Book. All of these Items are to be given to Edward. The Brave sword is obvious, the Wind Edge affords him 2-range for those pesky Mages and some Archers, the Secret Book is for BEXP purposes only. He doesn'y really need it, but it'll be helpful later on. I would give Edward Resolve this time. He'll be solo-ing the top part, so he really wants this. Micaiah will take Paragon this time. This chapter is a 6-turn in which neither take the advantage, but Edward can for sure be useful and kill the boss for Micaiah.

1-8: Micaiah and Edward switch skills this time. Edward helps here by clearing the enemies to the South.

1-E: Edward gets all the BEXP. This is what he looks like at 1-E's base:

   	Level  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/10 40* 24*  2  27   27  17  14  5    

This time around, Edward took the Angelic Robe before BEXP'ing to that level so he can cap HP faster and thereby get to his other stats. Edward is amazing now. I'll assume we buy him a Max Mt/Crit. Steel forge for later on. You'll see...

He keeps Paragon so he can gain CEXP.

Edward simply helps Micaiah go up by killing enemies on the way, including Jarod himself.

At the end of 1-E we have:

   	Level  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res   Support
Edward  16/12 40* 24*  2  28   28  18  15  6    
Ok.....
Beast.

No, those are Ziharks GFs

I'll cover Part 3 later on. As for now, your move...

Edward may be first round material...

But, ZIhark can go within the first 2-3 rounds, adding flexibility to ones team.

Well, as I can see.
He's Sothe with lower str/higher speed and access to a better weapon type.

Also, Earth affinity >Light.

If you draft a second string DB, this helps him out.

LEts see Edwards bases

Edward
Myrmidon
4
19
7
0
11
12
8
5
0
7
7
6

Well.
kinda average IMO, but that strength base isn't healthy

Also, one of Edward/Nolan is free for 1-p, 1-1, 1-2 and 1-3
So, those availibility leads are free for 4 chapters.

1-4 is rushing for Beastfoe, letting Sothe do the heavy lifting.
Meg/Nolan/Edward/Aran does help here though.

1-5
Free Volug

As for Zihark
Lets see how good he is, needing no EXp from RD to become this good
Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Support Zihark 3 30 17 6 22 23 11 13 11
Zihark at BASE is capable of murdering p1.

Also, he can combine Adept with many other skills availible at this time.
Like Leo's Cancel
Tauroneos Resolve.
And, if we have ZIhark, but not Edward-
Eddies Wrath.

Lessee at 1-6.1
Battle prep-
Max Might/Crit Sword forge
and Wind edge+Killing Edge+Iron Blade.

He can go north, and 1-2roko the Armours

(IMO, MIcaiah does that with Thani better)
Or he can go west with a steel sword, Wind edge, and Killing edge.
To help complete the chapter faster.


And for 1-6.2
We can send him north, and have him attempt to save lolFiona
Or, screw Fiona and send Zihark+Sothe northwest, in a beeline to kill the boss.

For 1-7
We gain the Brave Sword, which Zihark/Edward will use on tough bosses.

He could be level 4, but lets give him paragon and 99 bexp.

He can help clear the way while Sothe Saviours Micaiah to the boss.

And with Paragon, he may get a level or 2.

so, I'm going to assume that he's level 5.

His stats would look like this
LVL/HP/Str/Mg/SKL/SPD/LK/DEF/RES
5  31.1  17.7 6.2 23.5 24.4 11.8 13.5 11.7 3.45

Ok, His speed is overkill for p1.
His strength may miss some orkos.
So, lets give him the 1-2 Energy Drop.
The Dracoshield and Robe

lvl/hp/str/mag/skl/spd/lk/def/res
5 38.1 19.7 6.2 23.5 24.4 11.8 13.5 13.7 3.45
Now, Edward doesn't get 19 strength on average
Until 20/4
Doesn't get 13 def until 20/6
Doesnt get 38 HP until 20/9
So, Zihark is And now in the lead imo.

And since one might say that the energy drop is contested for, lets see the DB candidates for the drop.
Since Zihark is a prime DB, we probobly won't have Nolan, Jill, Aran or Volug.

So
Meg-
Low move, and she can bexp'd for it.
But, not a good idea IMO.

Leo-
:XD:
I dunno about him, I'd think he would want the speedwings too.

Laura-
I dunno, probobly not.

Fiona-
Maybe, but We're not drafting her, due to being more of a pita to use than fe6 Wendy in HM (OK, a little extreme :XD:)

So, lets see 1-8.

Now, IF we have drafted an LEA member/Nailah/a 2nd string DB, it makes things easier.

But, w/e

Zihark goes south.
Resolve Micaiah goes west
Sothe goes east with Knife forges

South is banditapalooza.

Now, there's those pesky Wyverns, but I remember that a wyrmslayer is availible in a p1 shop.
And may be a good investment.


Now, with a bit of bexp, and paragon.
He's level 10

Lvl/HP/STR/MG/SKL/SPD/LK/DEF/RES
10 40  21.4 5[b]  [/b]6.7  27.25  27.9  13.8  14.75  15  3.45
Now,
Edward doesn't get that def on average, until 20/11
Doesn't get that strength until 20/1
Doesn't cap that HP until 20/11.
And doesn't have innate Adept for shenanigans.

Now,

He's partying in 1-9, and getting laid with Meg/Jill/Female Laguz, so Micaiah gets Resolve here.


Now, in 1-E
I'd BEXP him to level 15.
lvl/hp/str/mg/skl/spd/lk/def/res
15 40  23.2  7.2  30  30  15.816  15  1.65
CAn you bexp fun for 3-6?

Now, I'm keeping Paragon on him for this level.

LEsse, he can go through the stairs, or up the ledges.
IMO, the BK takes ou that annoying archer on the ledge.
Zihark comes up.

Now, We can have Sothe Saviour Micaiah, or we can have her tag-a-long
But, leaving Saviour with the DB, means the GMs have a herder time with the bridge chapter.

But, this is about Zihark vs Edward, not the GMs.

So Sothe Saviour-ing Micaiah it is.

Now, Jarod is not that easy.
He has like, 19spd/21str/19def.

Zihark may need a steel blade/steel forge/Killing edge/Brave sword to kill this bastard.

IMO, Brave Sword will be used.

Oh, and as for p3, I'll get to that later.

He can be BEXP'd to promotion at 3-6.


---------------------------------------------------------------

As for Zihark going, good DBs are scarcer than good GMs.
IMO, the DBs go like this
Nolan
Edward
Jill=Zihark
Volug
Aran
Laura
Leo
Meg
Fiona.


Oh, and Zihark has a bigger harem bunch of girls that are interested in him.
Edwards got.....Laura.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I can't find NM enemy stats. :facepalm:
Or this would've been clearer

Edited by The Creeper, 20 January 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#3 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 02:28 PM

A veteran of the GMs vs a random hyperactive 10 yr old, that just grabbed a sword.......
Hmmmmmm.

Except Zihark isn't a GM veteran just for being with them for a year, three years ago.

Edward may be first round material...

But, ZIhark can go within the first 2-3 rounds, adding flexibility to ones team.

Unless someone is stupid enough (Which I've seen many cases coming from newbies), that is happening. And Edward being first round material is more of a reason to why he is better, not by itself, but because there is a reason behind that- Reasons I have stated myself in the OP post.

Well, as I can see.
He's Sothe with lower str/higher speed and access to a better weapon type.

And no good 2-range.

Also, Earth affinity >Light.

If you draft a second string DB, this helps him out.

It's too bad that only rarely will these supports come in handy, considering you're going to have them at different spots of the map...if you are sensible enough for that. I trust you are.

LEts see Edwards bases

Edward
Myrmidon
4
19
7
0
11
12
8
5
0
7
7
6

Well.
kinda average IMO, but that strength base isn't healthy

You know, this would be a problem in a 0% growths run, but even then Edward is still pretty helpful earlygame. It's too bad growths exist, no? And that those 6 chapters he wasn't sitting around being spoonfed kills.

Also, one of Edward/Nolan is free for 1-p, 1-1, 1-2 and 1-3
So, those availibility leads are free for 4 chapters.

They're free up 'til 1-2, and that doesn't undo the fact that he's still being useful as a draftee in chapters 1-3 and 4, espeially when he can 4-turn the latter. 1-P, 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5. 6. And besides, people are going to be picking Nolan over Edward if neither of them are undrafted.

1-4 is rushing for Beastfoe, letting Sothe do the heavy lifting.
Meg/Nolan/Edward/Aran does help here though.

I never needed it/never will. Not if you have the Brave sword, a Max Mt/Crit Steel sword forge, Killing edge and Resolve/Wrath.

1-5
Free Volug

Yeah, ok. What does this imply, exactly? Are you implying he will be solo-ing the map? Because he can actually be useful helping block off the ledges from the enemies spawning down below.

As for Zihark
Lets see how good he is, needing no EXp from RD to become this good
Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Support Zihark 3 30 17 6 22 23 11 13 11
Zihark at BASE is capable of murdering p1.

Too bad he's not there for the first half.

Also, he can combine Adept with many other skills availible at this time.
Like Leo's Cancel
Tauroneos Resolve.
And, if we have ZIhark, but not Edward-
Eddies Wrath.

I've always found Cancel to be pretty useless. I just sell it off.
And like I said before, Micaiah is putting better use to Resolve than either of the SMs, so why bash her party?

And for 1-6.2
We can send him north, and have him attempt to save lolFiona
Or, screw Fiona and send Zihark+Sothe northwest, in a beeline to kill the boss.

Not if we're 2-turning it. You see, the point of Edward Shoving Sothe in the first place is precisely because of this. This allows Sothe to stand at the boss' range and 1RKO him with an Adept from on the Enemy Phase of Turn 2. If you stay any longer, it's very probably Fiona might die.

1-7

And since one might say that the energy drop is contested for, lets see the DB candidates for the drop.
Since Zihark is a prime DB, we probobly won't have Nolan, Jill, Aran or Volug.

So
Meg-
Low move, and she can bexp'd for it.
But, not a good idea IMO.

Leo-
:XD:
I dunno about him, I'd think he would want the speedwings too.

Laura-
I dunno, probobly not.

Fiona-
Maybe, but We're not drafting her, due to being more of a pita to use than fe6 Wendy in HM (OK, a little extreme :XD:)

This is irrelevant to this debate, as this is between Edward and Zihark. Zihark may just take it without cost.


Lvl/HP/STR/MG/SKL/SPD/LK/DEF/RES
10 40  21.4 5[b]  [/b]6.7  27.25  27.9  13.8  14.75  15  3.45


Now,
Edward doesn't get that def on average, until 20/11
Doesn't get that strength until 20/1
Doesn't cap that HP until 20/11.
And doesn't have innate Adept for shenanigans.

Except he does, at level 16/10 with the Dracoshield.
...And Zihark gets it 9 levels later? Okay...
Did you not read my post? I was assuming he's given all the DB (barring the second Angelic Robe) statboosters, so considering the Angelic Robe is given by 1-8's base and reaches lvl 16/4, he will cap HP.
And like I said earlier, Zihark's not keeping the Adept. Sothe's taking it because it can help him 4-turn 1-6-1 and 2-turn 1-6-2. It may even help him snipe ledges much better on 3-12.

Now,

He's partying in 1-9, and getting laid with Meg/Jill/Female Laguz, so Micaiah gets Resolve here.

Posted Image

Now, in 1-E
I'd BEXP him to level 15.

lvl/hp/str/mg/skl/spd/lk/def/res
15 40  23.2  7.2  30  30  15.816  15  1.65

Posted Image

You inflated at least three levels there. Of the few times I used Zihark, I poured all the BEXP at 1-E's base and did all you did, the maximum I got is lvl 10-12. Don't forget BEXP costs more the higher leveled your unit is. I am not simply making baseless assumptions here reguarding their levels. I have experienced it a few times in my drafts.

Now, Jarod is not that easy.
He has like, 19spd/21str/19def.

Edward has capped Str and a Max Mt/Crit. Steel forge. How hard can it be?

He can be BEXP'd to promotion at 3-6.

Posted Image


Oh, and Zihark has a bigger harem bunch of girls that are interested in him.

Meg is the only one.

Edwards got.....Laura.

Are you implying Laura isn't all you need.

Now, I can't find NM enemy stats. :facepalm:
Or this would've been clearer

It wouldn't make much of a difference in your case.

I realize now that I don't need to expand any forward, as the sole fact Edward is helping out in the first half of Part 1 is enough to make him better.

I rest my case.

#4 Groot

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:05 PM

Except Zihark isn't a GM veteran just for being with them for a year, three years ago.

Edward may be first round material...


Unless someone is stupid enough (Which I've seen many cases coming from newbies), that is happening. And Edward being first round material is more of a reason to why he is better, not by itself, but because there is a reason behind that- Reasons I have stated myself in the OP post.

Well.....yeah, good point.
PEMN
is what I should've remembered
:facepalm:


And no good 2-range.

:facepalm:
But he DOES have a better p3 and p4


It's too bad that only rarely will these supports come in handy, considering you're going to have them at different spots of the map...if you are sensible enough for that. I trust you are.


You know, this would be a problem in a 0% growths run, but even then Edward is still pretty helpful earlygame. It's too bad growths exist, no? And that those 6 chapters he wasn't sitting around being spoonfed kills.

:facepalm:
I failed to realize the blatantly obvious


They're free up 'til 1-2, and that doesn't undo the fact that he's still being useful as a draftee in chapters 1-3 and 4, espeially when he can 4-turn the latter. 1-P, 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5. 6. And besides, people are going to be picking Nolan over Edward if neither of them are undrafted.

Good point

I never needed it/never will. Not if you have the Brave sword, a Max Mt/Crit Steel sword forge, Killing edge and Resolve/Wrath.


Yeah, ok. What does this imply, exactly? Are you implying he will be solo-ing the map? Because he can actually be useful helping block off the ledges from the enemies spawning down below.

Ok
I rofl screwed there

Too bad he's not there for the first half.



I've always found Cancel to be pretty useless. I just sell it off.
And like I said before, Micaiah is putting better use to Resolve than either of the SMs, so why bash her party?


Not if we're 2-turning it. You see, the point of Edward Shoving Sothe in the first place is precisely because of this. This allows Sothe to stand at the boss' range and 1RKO him with an Adept from on the Enemy Phase of Turn 2. If you stay any longer, it's very probably Fiona might die.


This is irrelevant to this debate, as this is between Edward and Zihark. Zihark may just take it without cost.

Good point.
Zihark needs it for his lagging str. growth


Except he does, at level 16/10 with the Dracoshield.
...And Zihark gets it 9 levels later? Okay...
Did you not read my post? I was assuming he's given all the DB (barring the second Angelic Robe) statboosters, so considering the Angelic Robe is given by 1-8's base and reaches lvl 16/4, he will cap HP.
And like I said earlier, Zihark's not keeping the Adept. Sothe's taking it because it can help him 4-turn 1-6-1 and 2-turn 1-6-2. It may even help him snipe ledges much better on 3-12.

:facepalm:
Sorry, I misread
Also
Sothe doesn't ALWAYS get adept.
Zihark is being used, may as well let him keep it.




Posted Image
Yes.


Posted Image

You inflated at least three levels there. Of the few times I used Zihark, I poured all the BEXP at 1-E's base and did all you did, the maximum I got is lvl 10-12. Don't forget BEXP costs more the higher leveled your unit is. I am not simply making baseless assumptions here reguarding their levels. I have experienced it a few times in my drafts.

Hmmm.
Maybe I'm thinking of something else.
Fine, level 11 Zihark.



Edward has capped Str and a Max Mt/Crit. Steel forge. How hard can it be?



Posted Image



Meg is the only one.



Are you implying Laura isn't all you need.


It wouldn't make much of a difference in your case.

I realize now that I don't need to expand any forward, as the sole fact Edward is helping out in the first half of Part 1 is enough to make him better.

I rest my case.

I rest in peace



Since they end up the same.

But, Edward has half of p1.

After p1, they're about equal IMO.

Yeah, I'm screwed.

Edward is a first half of first round pick.

And Zihark is a 1st-2nd round.
Only incompetent drafters would let him go 3rd round.

It appears that I have a long road to go and learn.

I admit my complete obliteration.



#5 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:02 PM

It was a good match.

You can keep practicing, though. :awesome:
I recommend you debate units you have already drafted and actually used so you have some experience to rely on.

#6 Groot

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:04 PM

It was a good match.

You can keep practicing, though. :awesome:
I recommend you debate units you have already drafted and actually used so you have some experience to rely on.



Zihark was my first unit I drafted in my first draft that I entered

#7 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:11 PM

Do you have the logs and turncounts? That could help you back it up.

#8 Mekkah

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:11 PM

This is a disgrace for the debating forum. CATS and Reikken would turn around in their internet-graves.

#9 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:17 PM

Why?

#10 Black Frost

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:23 PM

This is a disgrace for the debating forum. CATS and Reikken would turn around in their internet-graves.


What else did you expect from a debate between Soul and Creeper?

#11 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:35 PM

What else did you expect from a debate between Soul and Creeper?

Listen, idiot. This is his first time debating. And I don't have a reputation for bad quality debates. You talk big, you get in the middle, but you aren't much better yourself.

#12 Lord Raven

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:43 PM

Yeah, I'm screwed.



The basics of being in a debate competition is to not ever concede a stance. This is precisely what he did. Not doing that is nothing but basic common sense. This is, to be blunt, the absolute worst first debate I have ever seen from someone.

#13 Sirius

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:48 PM

@Soul and Gaf:

If this is the kind of behavior the forum will breed then it may as well be tossed in the graveyard. Calm down.

It's a game and it's the internet, two reasons not to get worked up.


Edited by Sirius, 20 January 2012 - 04:49 PM.


#14 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

It's my fault, Sirius. I insulted him.

I'll refrain from that. If anything, you can warn me instead of tossing away this part of the forums.

#15 Anouleth

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 05:34 PM

What else did you expect from a debate between Soul and Creeper?

I don'tthink that Soul debated badly at all.

#16 HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:15 PM

I think Soul did pretty well actully.

Creeper did far better then my first debate attempt on FEP, which went as well as Creeper's first one(granted he did better then i did)

#17 PJSalt

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:07 PM

Soul did good. Except for being wrong with the zihark not being able to promote in 3-6. Paragon him for 1-7 through 1-E and then bexp him and crown begs to differ.

#18 Bluedoom

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

Oh yeah also Creeper said Zihark has a better P-3 and P-4. I'd beg to differ. Edward has capped strength going in to 3-6(and maybe Zihark too if you give him an energy drop, but eh.), benefits from any sort of support eitherways, has innate wrath, works with resolve, and top of all this, has CALADBOLG! He dodges shit much easier thaan Zihark and I feel is much more durable. Tell me, how is Zihark beating his P-3 perforomance? And better P-3= better P-4 naturally due to the loads of exp he'll be getting.

But I'm an Edward fanboy. I might be wrong in what I just said.

#19 The Gluttony

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:43 PM

Soul did good. Except for being wrong with the zihark not being able to promote in 3-6. Paragon him for 1-7 through 1-E and then bexp him and crown begs to differ.

I never said he couldn't. That was only my reaction to the level inflation.

Oh yeah also Creeper said Zihark has a better P-3 and P-4. I'd beg to differ. Edward has capped strength going in to 3-6(and maybe Zihark too if you give him an energy drop, but eh.), benefits from any sort of support eitherways, has innate wrath, works with resolve, and top of all this, has CALADBOLG! He dodges shit much easier thaan Zihark and I feel is much more durable. Tell me, how is Zihark beating his P-3 perforomance? And better P-3= better P-4 naturally due to the loads of exp he'll be getting.

But I'm an Edward fanboy. I might be wrong in what I just said.

Zihark is indeed taking the Energy Drop, he has no reason not to.

#20 Bluedoom

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:52 PM

So, does Zihark cap str on average if he gets BEXP'd and with enrgy drop? I'm thinking he may be a point or two short of it by 3-6.

Oh yeah, and also about Creeper's statement of earth support. Edward will develop a support faster than Zihark ever will. he's most likely having an A or B support in 3-6 and Zihark is stuck with a C support.




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