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The Great LTC Debate Thread (Yay? Nay? Burn in Hell?)


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#21 Aethereal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:49 PM

As for the Micaiah thing; I don't RNG abuse, and I don't really like RNG abuse, but I can understand Micaiah in drafts. Micaiah's speed is way too central to low turns, so if the competition is for low turns, you either a) all abuse, or b) let the luckiest person get a huge advantage. I dunno, it's not the players' fault the game is really RNG dependant when they want a fair competition.

And as for the problem with LTC related stuff. I don't understand the hate on LTC play in regards to it seeping into the mind of every one. We just had a string of rating topics for FE7, and ranked runs had their place in the discussion. Non-LTC play also had it's place, and while it's called casual play (Which may actually be unfair, to Paperblade's point. I just don't have another term for it. Regular play? I haven't thought of it.) most people didn't just dismiss it.

My biggest problem with the mindset that LTC related discussion stifles other discussion is this: I've yet to see any topics even trying to discuss other playstyles, or rank them. Snowy has some personal list, that I guess sorta takes criticism and discussion. I dunno, I've skimmed a few posts, I haven't followed it at all. But that's the right way to handle it. If it's such a problem trying to house two discussions, why try to mix them? If there's enough interest in regular play, or no-reset runs, or whatever, then the topic/tier-list would get discussed. I doubt any one would get bashed at all. Just because there are more people who try to discuss things under their own criteria (LTC) than others does not mean any one is trying to stop you from discussing other methods of play.

#22 Sunwoo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:50 PM

Why should luck play a part in who wins something? Are you both implying that there is strategy in getting a screwed Micaiah and trying to win a draft like that? Also, note that FE10 drafts require more considerable RNG abuse if miccy is not spd blessed...


Half the fun in FE, for me, is the luck factor. There's something mildly irritating and yet still not unwelcome about having characters who sucked on one playthrough suddenly become epic on a second try, and characters that you depended on before suddenly become rather RNG screwed. I like the variability of FE, and, honestly, if we're all such FE fans, then we all know that luck is going to be a big factor in the game. That's just the nature of FE. There's really no use complaining about it. I'm not implying that there's a strategy in winning a draft with a screwed Micaiah. I'm just saying that making sure that she gets 20 speed all the time is rather cheap, especially since, as someone else pointed out earlier, there is pretty much a less than a one percent chance of her doing so. Let's say that there's a 50 percent chance of her having 14-15 speed at level 20 (not looking at averages, just pretend hypothetically). Let's say that your Micaiah is level 18, slightly screwed, and sitting at 12 speed. She needs at least 13 to not be doubled. In that case, I think abusing to get her at least 13 speed wouldn't be unacceptable. But making sure she gets 20 speed - every - single - time - when it's a very unlikely scenario seems cheap to me.

#23 PJSalt

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:57 PM

Half the fun in FE, for me, is the luck factor. There's something mildly irritating and yet still not unwelcome about having characters who sucked on one playthrough suddenly become epic on a second try, and characters that you depended on before suddenly become rather RNG screwed. I like the variability of FE, and, honestly, if we're all such FE fans, then we all know that luck is going to be a big factor in the game. That's just the nature of FE. There's really no use complaining about it. I'm not implying that there's a strategy in winning a draft with a screwed Micaiah. I'm just saying that making sure that she gets 20 speed all the time is rather cheap, especially since, as someone else pointed out earlier, there is pretty much a less than a one percent chance of her doing so. Let's say that there's a 50 percent chance of her having 14-15 speed at level 20 (not looking at averages, just pretend hypothetically). Let's say that your Micaiah is level 18, slightly screwed, and sitting at 12 speed. She needs at least 13 to not be doubled. In that case, I think abusing to get her at least 13 speed wouldn't be unacceptable. But making sure she gets 20 speed - every - single - time - when it's a very unlikely scenario seems cheap to me.



Note that at least, my Miccys always tend to have 14-17 speed in 1-8. Then, get BEXP'd in 1-9 to either .99 or a few levels of more BEXP if needed. She needs at least 13 spd so that she can double everyone on the map with resolve. More than 13 speed is just making sure u dont have to reset much and to make the 4 turn a lot more reliable.

Also, RNG screwage is part of the reason why I cant tolerate FE8 at times. My franz and vanessas always suck lol. Sometimes to the point of not being even able to beat a map. Like that draft I once did where Artur Nessie Colm Eirika all got super screwed and I couldnt beat chapter 15 and had to restart because of lack of units...fun times.

Edited by PKL, 05 February 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#24 Black Frost

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:59 PM

Yeah see this attitude about RNG abuse is pretty much why I never want to do a draft again after this FE12 draft. I play all the non SNES era games on the cart which means that RNG abusing is impossible for me. Even if I did play them on the ROMs, I still wouldn't RNG abuse except with FE6 against bosses because RNG abuse takes no skill and it's...you know...cheap. Drafts should be about player skill and a player should adapt to situations that the RNG brings up regarding stuff like level ups, even if they're not to his liking. I also feel the same way about Battle Save/Save Point abuse. I probably wouldn't mind so much if some people weren't all like :smug: if you didn't RNG abuse and as a result got lower turncounts, even if you were still efficient.

Personally I like efficiency and aiming for LTCs because I find it an interesting challenge. But some people take it waaaaay too seriously. I am finding it harder to discuss FE in a tier enviroment because it's gradually getting to the point where perfectly good and fast strategies are being thrown out the window because they're not the absolute best. I was particularly disturbed how in the FE10 list, a Zihark vs Micaiah debate involved Zihark being sandbagged because he was worse than Sothe/Volug/Tauroneo/Nailah/BK and how a similar argument occrured in the FE12 list regarding Wendell's placement (I actually participated in the latter one). I don't think turncounts only is a good way to judge unit worth. Otherwise, Edward would top the list no questions asked in the FE10 tier list for example.

@Othin: The RNG rigging is only fully rampant and out of hand in a draft environment. A lot of people who play for LTCs/Efficiency don't like to take advantage of the RNG.

#25 PJSalt

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:08 PM

As for the Micaiah thing; I don't RNG abuse, and I don't really like RNG abuse, but I can understand Micaiah in drafts. Micaiah's speed is way too central to low turns, so if the competition is for low turns, you either a) all abuse, or b) let the luckiest person get a huge advantage. I dunno, it's not the players' fault the game is really RNG dependant when they want a fair competition.

And as for the problem with LTC related stuff. I don't understand the hate on LTC play in regards to it seeping into the mind of every one. We just had a string of rating topics for FE7, and ranked runs had their place in the discussion. Non-LTC play also had it's place, and while it's called casual play (Which may actually be unfair, to Paperblade's point. I just don't have another term for it. Regular play? I haven't thought of it.) most people didn't just dismiss it.

My biggest problem with the mindset that LTC related discussion stifles other discussion is this: I've yet to see any topics even trying to discuss other playstyles, or rank them. Snowy has some personal list, that I guess sorta takes criticism and discussion. I dunno, I've skimmed a few posts, I haven't followed it at all. But that's the right way to handle it. If it's such a problem trying to house two discussions, why try to mix them? If there's enough interest in regular play, or no-reset runs, or whatever, then the topic/tier-list would get discussed. I doubt any one would get bashed at all. Just because there are more people who try to discuss things under their own criteria (LTC) than others does not mean any one is trying to stop you from discussing other methods of play.


THIS.

@ gafgarion- there isnt any RNG abuse involved in FE12 drafts as of late. Its just about having some OP unit clean up the way for Marth and full moving him every turn and using Rescue charges wisely. I rarely see RNG abuse in FE12 drafts.

#26 Paperblade

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:18 PM

Why should luck play a part in who wins something? Are you both implying that there is strategy in getting a screwed Micaiah and trying to win a draft like that? Also, note that FE10 drafts require more considerable RNG abuse if miccy is not spd blessed...

Since FE is a PvE game and there is no hidden information, there is a theoretical point where there will be an absolute best turncount possible for any given combination of units. In other words, drafting will eventually reach a point where the only thing that matters is the RNG, as every draft pick will have been the absolute best it can be.

Edit: Technically you could require people to have exactly average stats (either via the use of a fixed growth patch or w/e) but that's kind of ehhhh

Edited by Paperblade, 05 February 2012 - 09:19 PM.


#27 General Banzai

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:20 PM

I like how in FESS characters are judged not by their inherent quality but rather how little they slow down Seth.

#28 Black Frost

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:23 PM

Well there is a good reason why No-Seth tier lists exist.

#29 Narga_Rocks

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:23 PM

I like how in FESS characters are judged not by their inherent quality but rather how little they slow down Seth.

But that is their inherent quality. It's not their fault that Seth breaks the game so hard you have to rate units by what they can do to clear a path for him. Unless you have a Sethless tier list, that's just the way to play even moderately efficiently. I'm not talking dondon levels of speed or anything. Even the speed I played at Seth was that important.

#30 Loki Laufeyson

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:25 PM

Part of the fun of FE for me is seeing what the RNG does each time. I never reset for RNG. I think that cheapens it. Unless the RNG shat on every single one of my units, (like Marcia getting two empty levels in a row in PoR.) i dont do anything about it. (then again, i dont draft. But if i did, i doubt i would RNG abuse.)

#31 PJSalt

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:25 PM

Since FE is a PvE game and there is no hidden information, there is a theoretical point where there will be an absolute best turncount possible for any given combination of units. In other words, drafting will eventually reach a point where the only thing that matters is the RNG, as every draft pick will have been the absolute best it can be.

Edit: Technically you could require people to have exactly average stats (either via the use of a fixed growth patch or w/e) but that's kind of ehhhh



I like that idea. But then there's the problem that not every player in the draft is going to have access to said patch...meh. I would love to play a fixed growth version of FE10 HM :3.

#32 Paperblade

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:32 PM

I like that idea. But then there's the problem that not every player in the draft is going to have access to said patch...meh. I would love to play a fixed growth version of FE10 HM :3.

Yeah, people wanting to play on cart/not wanting to pirate is why a balanced/fixed mode patch will probably never catch on unless there are enough changes to make it a new experience (such as RR/Shin Mode/etc.)

imo the best way to solve this (edit: that being that at some point variance in drafts will become more important than strategy/picks) is so that there is variance in the actual PvP portion of the game (ie the drafting) but I really have no idea how to do that.

Edited by Paperblade, 05 February 2012 - 09:33 PM.


#33 Aethereal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:37 PM

Since FE is a PvE game and there is no hidden information, there is a theoretical point where there will be an absolute best turncount possible for any given combination of units. In other words, drafting will eventually reach a point where the only thing that matters is the RNG, as every draft pick will have been the absolute best it can be.

Edit: Technically you could require people to have exactly average stats (either via the use of a fixed growth patch or w/e) but that's kind of ehhhh


Yeah, RNG being a factor is a problem. But, I dunno. My point was just that, in my estimation at least, Micaiah's speed is hugely important to turncount, and I think enough so to create a very large difference in your team's capability. To me, that's important enough to want averaged out, while leaving (most of?) the rest of the game to chance. That said, this is an arbitrary line I'm drawing, and I'm not an expert on FE10 or drafts, so I could just be exaggerating it's impact.

#34 Anouleth

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:39 PM

Or people could stop treating drafts as super competitive "omg must win" affairs and instead simply play the cards they're dealt. If they do badly because Micaiah is screwed, nobody is going to ban them from drafts or something. Drafts aren't interesting when you just use the same strategies over and over again any more than other types of playthrough.

Edited by Anouleth, 05 February 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#35 Sunwoo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:43 PM

Agreed. Winning drafts is great and all, but RNG abusing for certain stats just ... sort of seems like it would take the fun out of it.

Also, if your LTC strategy depends solely on a unit being ridiculously blessed in a certain area that they are not likely to be extremely blessed in ... that's a shaky strategy that would either be impossible to replicate unless your unit is likely blessed or if you purposely RNG abuse. :\

Edit: All right, I'm Ike now!

Edited by Boron, 05 February 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#36 Paperblade

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:48 PM

Or people could stop treating drafts as super competitive "omg must win" affairs and instead simply play the cards they're dealt. If they do badly because Micaiah is screwed, nobody is going to ban them from drafts or something. Drafts aren't interesting when you just use the same strategies over and over again any more than other types of playthrough.

but that's stupid

#37 Anouleth

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:51 PM

Agreed. Winning drafts is great and all, but RNG abusing for certain stats just ... sort of seems like it would take the fun out of it.

People were initially attracted to drafts because it was a good way to mix things up and play the game in a new way. Drafts as they currently are seem to be the complete opposite.

#38 Sunwoo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:05 PM

Heh, I'm doing horribly in my current (first ever) draft, but I'm still having a lot of fun. Winning is cool and all, but I'd participate in a draft to have fun, not to win. And to see how well my characters cooperate or not.

#39 Lord Raven

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:05 PM

didnt we have one of these that did nothing, like twice..

I don't mind people who do LTC, but RNG abuse in FE12 means that you positioned your stuff crappily and need a better strategy. LTC sucks anyway, it's more of a "see if you can do it" thing than a fun thing for me and it's why I have no will to play SFDTT FE10 because I'll get competitive and i need tons of RNG abuse starting from the Prologue to win.. but oh well, winning isn't a problem to me anymore (though if something can go better I'll gladly redo it).

one time I did have a powerful Micaiah that I didn't RNG abuse for though :( She had like 16 Spd after a speedwing.



As it stands, by the way, tier lists are generally over with. There's only some rather nitpicky points you can make about random units in mid and low (and you won't be seeing any LTC arguments behind it either, unlike high tier units which have LTC + Efficiency to back them) but that's just about it. There's not much more to argue anymore, and there's too little to care about.

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 05 February 2012 - 11:10 PM.


#40 Anouleth

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:15 PM

one time I did have a powerful Micaiah that I didn't RNG abuse for though :( She had like 16 Spd after a speedwing.

Wow, 0.35 above her average.




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