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The Great LTC Debate Thread (Yay? Nay? Burn in Hell?)


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#1 Kngt_Of_Titania

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:12 PM

Anyways, this thread is a spill-off of a discussion sparked in the FE3DS mechanics thread, mainly because Red Fox said to take it somewhere else (this is somewhere else). So, instead of going through an enormous introduction, I'll just post a few choice quotes from the discussion so that everybody knows where we're at.

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.


Rebel against the LTC ubermensch!

Except armors are still bad because they don't have the right parameters in the right places. When IS designs scenarios in which high def, despite the lack of spd, is actually useful, then armors would be more useful.

* and when IS stops providing strictly superior alternatives in the form of bulky cavaliers and wyvern riders.



Why do some people here hate LTC so much? Even if I wasn't a fan of it, it wouldn't personally affect me if people here like really liked Bors or something. I'd still think he'd suck. Plus while the tier lists are made with efficiency in mind, that really just means it's less efficient to use lower tier characters. Nothing's stopping you from doing so (except maybe in FE4).



Well I'm butthurt because it killed tier list activity and encourages shit like RNG abusing to follow cookie cutter strategies. Then again the most vocal people against LTC don't really have the same reason.

The latter reason is precisely my feeling about it.

I find it amusing how much LTC insists itself to be "efficient" while ignoring the inherent inefficiency of unnecessary resetting, ever. Especially for players who, I believe, at least some of them have expressed a desire to not "waste" any more of their time playing the game than necessary. Perhaps they haven't noticed that time doesn't not pass just because the game forgets that it does?



Actually, people starting examining the game to a higher standard and actually began applying the standards that tier lists were based on consistently. That's hardly a problem. If anything, it's a good thing that people finally woke up and noticed that hey, Gilliam's defense is actually not that useful in a game where enemies are as weak as FE8's.



I'm trying to do a LTC run of FE12 H3 myself, and when I mean "efficient", I mean turn-wise, not time-wise. It (unfortunately) involves a bunch of RNG bending or outright abuse, simply due to the fact that I've found no way around it. A good example is C15, where you I found you need to kill like 7-10 people (some having 2 range) with 2 people in one enemy phase, one of whom has to be a caster so you can properly rescue in the correct location next turn. Said caster needs to have like 15 uses of Nosferatu (and thus HAS to be a chick -- Yumina, Mal, or Linde), must avoid a OHKO from any given enemy (they have 37-39 ATK), and must double and ORKO them. So you need a Linde with like 38 HP, ~21 MAG (after RP and sphere and statboosters), and 24 SPD. There are a bunch of other strats where crits with killers/shaver may be necessary too, or ones where hit rates of 70% might need to be hit a few times. It's not that there's no strategy involved, it's more that RNG abuse AND strategy is involved.

However, there are many FEs (probably most of them) where RNG abuse needed is much less severe (and thus the number of resets needed) -- these tend to be the ones that dondon has done 0% growth efficiency runs; in these, enemies aren't strong enough that it's required or you get people like Marcus or Seth or Miledy or the ilk that work well at base -- then LTC comes down to stocking up on buyable boots (FE6 =P) or some other gimmick and then using the proper strats.


That means you don't try to kill 7-10 enemies with two characters in one enemy phase. There's your way around it: stop going for minimum turns.



Why is it that every one who doesn't play LTC has to be so fucking smug and condescending about it? Do you know how much of an ass you look like right now? This kind of post is crap, and you will never see an LTC player talking the same way about any other playstyle, despite the fact that every one-yourself most definitely included-gets so damn butthurt about LTC runs.



Most people (me included) lack the patience for crunching binomial distributions in order to determine the exact chance of failure of a given strategy. Whereas determining the number of turns that a given strategy takes is extremely easy.

Moreover, it's an extremely narrow definition. What it would probably produce is something like this tier list, with Franz moved to low (because of his bad luck and reliance on growing stats), and other growth units moved down (such as Artur, Kyle, Garcia and so on). If you notice, this tier list produced only 4 pages of discussion, so you are probably in the minority for thinking this kind of thing is "interesting".



You really don't get it, do you?

The point is not to pick a given strategy and hope that the number of times you'll have to reset for it to work will be as low as possible. The point is that you do what works and live with stat screwage, character deaths, etc. rather than having only one strategy to begin with.

In other words, ACTUALLY PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME. The thing any pre-planned LTC playthrough is not even doing.



I've done no-reset runs before. I think they're good for second or third playthroughs. Adapting to mistakes and using other units out of necessity can be enjoyable. I don't think these types of runs lend themselves well to tiering units, though. If you wanted to optimize such runs to the tier list aims, you'd end up deriving and executing high-reliability strategies that best accomplish the aims of the tier list - which you seem to want to avoid. You might expect frail units like Herons to be penalized by a no-restart tier list, but if I have sufficient mastery of the game's strategies, I can use them to their full potential while minimizing the risk of their demise.




In that case, how much do you reset? That is, for a specific LTC playthrough you've done, what's your estimate for how many times you reset throughout the course of the run?


I do reset a lot - maybe an average of 8 times per chapter - but a majority of my runs are recorded, and I reset often for minor cosmetic improvements, e.g. rearranging the order of unit actions so that I can maximize L-switching, eliminating superfluous unit actions entirely, and satisfying my OCD with even numbers. Other times I lack detailed information about the game and need to poke my head out a little bit to figure out how the AI works in certain maps. If you want to consider only the resets that can be attributed to poor planning or something going wrong, that can range any where from 0 times per chapter (for the really easy ones) to 4 times per chapter (for the really hard ones).

Getting a low turn clear on maps is more than just about wanting to clear in the lowest possible time. If I really wanted to do that, I wouldn't do 0% growths, and I wouldn't aim for the lowest turncount possible. As much as I hate wasting time playing video games, I still enjoy a challenge, and the experience wouldn't really be the same otherwise.




...Phew. I think that's all of them. Commence discussion!

#2 Groot

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:55 PM

People that complain about LTC are trolls.

Also.
Its merely a popular style of playing through FE, and enhances comptetitive aspects in a strategy game.
I remember when Kopjager started trying to get me to copy him and Horace's TCs in his fe6 draft.

I did try to, but I'm not good at LTC.

Its a widely accepted playstyle, that centers around resource distribution, some resets, a bit of RNG abuse in drafts. (PKL and his 20 spd Micaiahs.)

I see a lot of cameraderie and competitive-ness in various drafts.

I see Doku and Horace teasing each other, PKL and Soul joking around in fe9/fe10 drafts, PKL, Kopfjager and 13th playing around gabbing about feDS.

All I can say to those who hate the idea of LTC, and think that it should not count as a playstyle-"You're missing out".

Also, Armour knights haven't really been useful pre-FE7.
Oswin helped early on, but has move problems.
Gilliam is slow early on, and becomes average.
Gatrie and Brom in fe9 were slow and had lowish move.
But Gatrie had earlygame to help.
Fe10 Gatrie, is the bast AK in the series, IMO, but has move problems.

And, early on in the game-while deployment is free, Armours may have uses, but later on-we get better alternatives.

For example.
Fe6, we have Bors-who has high base def, and an average speed growth.
When we start getting a battle prep menu and unit selection, we only have so many slots.
There are the Cavs, with good durability and combat.
Fliers with combat, and Pegs for tanking Magic/Wyverns for tanking physical.
We've got the Ogma archtype unit, who is quite durable, and hits hard.
We've got the Nabarl archtype, who can take a hit or 2, and have decent offense.
We've gpot the Axefighters, and in fe6, Lot is a better tank and combat unit that Bors will ever be.

I don't see much use for Armours past earlygame, in most FEs.



-----------------------

Anyways, I can't see why people complain about LTC playstyles being popular.
Some people enjoy Resetting over and over, to the point of abuse.

And, as for the people who complain about the "voice" of LTC players, IMO, are the same people who dislike mounted units and the jeigan archtype/prepromoted units.

#3 The_Purple_Knight

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

If you weren't aware another LTC debate is happening in foot soldiers vs mounted units too. I don't like playing LTC style and I don't care who does .

#4 Kngt_Of_Titania

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:10 PM

If you weren't aware another LTC debate is happening in foot soldiers vs mounted units too. I don't like playing LTC style and I don't care who does .


Oh, I remember some comments, but I didn't know it burst into a full-blown discussion.

#5 Sangyul

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:37 PM

Meh, I really don't care how other people choose to play FE. If they want to go for LTC, then that's fine with me. If they're super casual, that's also fine with me. What I don't like is when people bash you for your choice of playing style. I haven't participated in any LTC "debates", nor do I remember everything I read on the forums, but I think there are people on both sides who are condescending. Both casual players and LTC people can be pretty mean to each other at times. I'm personally in between. I'm casual because I take time to get supports and to raise characters who aren't always usable from the get-go, plus I like to grab all items available on a map, but I do like to finish the chapter in a reasonable amount of time whilst doing all this. I don't particularly care to plan out long strategies for how to beat an FE map the fastest, but nor do I care if someone else does. It's too bad that there are people who just don't seem to respect each other's playing styles.

#6 Loki Laufeyson

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:39 PM

(PKL and his 20 spd Micaiahs.)

(i had one of those in my very last run. It was weird and gr9mazing.)

If people want to play like that, why the hell not right? Im the same way with you guys's deal with drafts. I just...dont find the concept that fun really but it dont bother me at all that you lot go on and on about it. No beef.

I myself, do not play for low turn counts. Like, at all. If i manage to complete a couple of chapters quicker than usual, im like "oh sweet." But i dont go out of my way to do so because i like training different units. Like say, i wanna use Tormod in RD for Endgame to rip it up with Rexflame. (because i dont like Calill.) Training him in 4-4 requires a lot of turns and junk. Oh well. Im still gonna do it. (Not recommended but hell, sometimes i do crazy crap like use Fiona and junk.)

So yeah. Who really cares how other people play!

I don't particularly care to plan out long strategies for how to beat an FE map the fastest, but nor do I care if someone else does. It's too bad that there are people who just don't seem to respect each other's playing styles.

Yeah. 95% of the time i start a run on any FE game, i never really plan ahead and i just go with it and see what happens. Like, i didnt plan on using Sothe in my last RD run, but i used him anyway because he was turning out pretty decent compared to usual and that i was using less DB units than usual too. I just go with it.

Edited by Florina, 05 February 2012 - 05:41 PM.


#7 Sangyul

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

I've noticed that a lot of my favorite characters in FE games are mostly latecomers are rather low in tiers (Tormod, Rath, L'Arachel). Well, I really don't care about tiers. If people want to use them to determine efficiency and whatnot, that's perfectly fine with me. I really don't care what other people do, as long as they're not pushing it onto me (or anyone else). Isn't that the important thing? Who cares what other people do as long as they're not pushing it onto you?

And on the topic of requiring ridiculous RNG abuse to accomplish certain LTC ... well, I really have nothing to say on that. But, hey, if a character gets strangely but luckily blessed in, say, everything, I say run with it. I'm working on an FE8 draft right now, and my Joshua got unexpectedly blessed in everything, especially strength. He's a level 10-11 swordmaster with capped strength. I didn't plan this, I play on a cart so rigging his strength in a draft would've been troublesome. But, hey, I ran with it. Joshua is now my main bosskiller. :P

#8 Sara.

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

I just enjoy competing with horace and trying to beat him at what he does, though my inexperience often drives me jusr a step behind him.

#9 Paperblade

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:55 PM

People that complain about LTC are trolls.

People that like LTC are tools.

See, I too can make general statements that make me look like an ass.

Also.
Its merely a popular style of playing through FE, and enhances comptetitive aspects in a strategy game.
I remember when Kopjager started trying to get me to copy him and Horace's TCs in his fe6 draft.

I did try to, but I'm not good at LTC.

Anecdotal evidence

Its a widely accepted playstyle, that centers around resource distribution, some resets, a bit of RNG abuse in drafts. (PKL and his 20 spd Micaiahs.)

>a bit of RNG abuse
>implying RNG abuse should be acceptable outside of FE6, and only because FE6 is the actual worst
>approximately 7 speed above average
>Micaiah has under a 1% chance of having 20 Speed by Level 20
>it is okay to abuse to make events that happen under 1% of the time happen consistently

choke on a dick, rampant RNG abuse is why I only sparingly draft

I see a lot of cameraderie and competitive-ness in various drafts.

I see Doku and Horace teasing each other, PKL and Soul joking around in fe9/fe10 drafts, PKL, Kopfjager and 13th playing around gabbing about feDS.

You forgot the accusations of cheating. Also again anecdotal evidence

All I can say to those who hate the idea of LTC, and think that it should not count as a playstyle-"You're missing out".

I honestly lack the patience to RNG abuse in a majority of scenarios.

Anyways, I can't see why people complain about LTC playstyles being popular.

It stifles all other discussion because people can only look at it through tinted glasses.

Some people enjoy Resetting over and over, to the point of abuse.

You are truly naive if you think people are resetting due to RNG (as opposed to fucking up hardcore with AI or something) rather than save state abusing due to RNG. Some people like playing on cart and letting absurd amounts of RNG abuse go unpunished puts them at an inherent disadvantage.

And, as for the people who complain about the "voice" of LTC players, IMO, are the same people who dislike mounted units and the jeigan archetype/prepromoted units.

Jeigans as implemented are a mistake in that they are intended as a crutch to help new/bad players but end up being overpowered to the point where the only reason not to spam them is EXP rank.

#10 Othin

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:12 PM

It stifles all other discussion because people can only look at it through tinted glasses.

This, I think, is the core of the issue, and why it really is everyone's business. It's not simply existing alongside other discussion; it's replacing it.

#11 Kngt_Of_Titania

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:15 PM

>a bit of RNG abuse
>implying RNG abuse should be acceptable outside of FE6, and only because FE6 is the actual worst
>approximately 7 speed above average
>Micaiah has under a 1% chance of having 20 Speed by Level 20
>it is okay to abuse to make events that happen under 1% of the time happen consistently

choke on a dick, rampant RNG abuse is why I only sparingly draft


While I think that things like that are a bit excessive in a game like FE10, PKL probably isn't going to get anything tangible from doing that -- any strat that takes X turns with 13 SPD Micky will probably still take X turns with 20 SPD Micky. It's only with a unit like, say, Jill, where you might see a difference.

As for what's worst, the harder modes of FE12 > FE6 for RNG abuse, for sure, just because of the stupidly high enemy stats you have to deal with. Hell, FE7 and FE8 minimum turn counts can be (and are) achieved or very nearlyachieved in drafts if a Jaigan is allowed (or, hell, in FE8 if you give me Franz and/or Vanessa).


It stifles all other discussion because people can only look at it through tinted glasses.


Where? I don't frequently see LTC or draft players going around bashing people just because said unit is worse in their style of play than for another. Hell, in the case of (most) armors, they'd STILL suck in casual play because of their pitiful SPD, just not as much.

I just ask that you specify what style of play you're working with if you decide to seriously rate/judge/comment on a unit or something like that. As for tier lists, it might be difficult to make a "casual" tier list, mainly because casual play is SO vague. And don't tell me it isn't -- there are no strict criteria which defines it (unlike LTC or speedruns or efficiency), just that it's everything that's not defined by any other category. If you feel like trying to make one, though, go right ahead -- it's not like LTC or efficiency players are going to invade the thread and bash you for it. Comments like this kind of strike me as mildly paranoid, frankly.


You are truly naive if you think people are resetting due to RNG (as opposed to fucking up hardcore with AI or something) rather than save state abusing due to RNG. Some people like playing on cart and letting absurd amounts of RNG abuse go unpunished puts them at an inherent disadvantage.


Again, unless you're doing like H5 FE11 or FE6 or some crap like that, you will not be losing because you use a cart. Are savestates convenient, if not for saving time alone? Hell yeah. But unless you find you feel like joining up in almost non-existent Lunatic drafts (which force you to use a ROM anyways), savestates aren't making or breaking you.


Jeigans as implemented are a mistake in that they are intended as a crutch to help new/bad players but end up being overpowered to the point where the only reason not to spam them is EXP rank.


Agreed.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania, 05 February 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#12 OrangeCrush980

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:09 PM

Most people (me included) lack the patience for crunching binomial distributions in order to determine the exact chance of failure of a given strategy. Whereas determining the number of turns that a given strategy takes is extremely easy.

Moreover, it's an extremely narrow definition. What it would probably produce is something like this tier list, with Franz moved to low (because of his bad luck and reliance on growing stats), and other growth units moved down (such as Artur, Kyle, Garcia and so on). If you notice, this tier list produced only 4 pages of discussion, so you are probably in the minority for thinking this kind of thing is "interesting".


This is my main concern. The LTC mentality has sunk into the tier lists, and its only a matter of time until units like Franz, Raven, Nolan, FE9 Oscar, etc. fall into lower-mid, low, or even bottom because they're not prepromotes, fliers, staff (aka Warp) users, or dancers.

Edited by OrangeCrush, 05 February 2012 - 07:11 PM.


#13 Paperblade

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:46 PM

While I think that things like that are a bit excessive in a game like FE10, PKL probably isn't going to get anything tangible from doing that -- any strat that takes X turns with 13 SPD Micky will probably still take X turns with 20 SPD Micky. It's only with a unit like, say, Jill, where you might see a difference.

You are absolutely wrong. There is a reason that people RNG abuse Micaiah's Speed and that is that it makes a world of difference in drafts. Without Speed, Micaiah lacks the offense/durability to gain levels, meaning it's more like Level 20 max Speed Micaiah (with her 20 Magic/25+ Luck/20 Res) vs. Level 3 average Micaiah.

Just off the top of my head for something that applies to any team ever, it saves 4 turns in 1-9, and you would be insane to think that having a combat capable unit with 1-2 range makes no difference in 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 4-P, and 4-3.

As for what's worst, the harder modes of FE12 > FE6 for RNG abuse, for sure, just because of the stupidly high enemy stats you have to deal with. Hell, FE7 and FE8 minimum turn counts can be (and are) achieved or very nearlyachieved in drafts if a Jaigan is allowed (or, hell, in FE8 if you give me Franz and/or Vanessa).

Seth is banned entirely in drafts because he marginalizes all other picks. Franz/Vanessa are also arguably overpowered (Franz moreso).

Also, are you kidding me? FE6 consistently puts you at incredibly low hit rates vs. bosses and sometimes even regular enemies. The entire game is a big roulette wheel. FE12 meanwhile has very high hit rates unless you are a Swordmaster with stacked supports (which is basically just Catria)

Where? I don't frequently see LTC or draft players going around bashing people just because said unit is worse in their style of play than for another. Hell, in the case of (most) armors, they'd STILL suck in casual play because of their pitiful SPD, just not as much.

I just ask that you specify what style of play you're working with if you decide to seriously rate/judge/comment on a unit or something like that. As for tier lists, it might be difficult to make a "casual" tier list, mainly because casual play is SO vague. And don't tell me it isn't -- there are no strict criteria which defines it (unlike LTC or speedruns or efficiency), just that it's everything that's not defined by any other category. If you feel like trying to make one, though, go right ahead -- it's not like LTC or efficiency players are going to invade the thread and bash you for it. Comments like this kind of strike me as mildly paranoid, frankly.

Bolded for emphasis, this is an excellent example of my point.

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/casual

I can only assume the definition you are using is

3 a (1) : feeling or showing little concern : nonchalant (2) : lacking a high degree of interest or devotion (3) : done without serious intent or commitment

Thank you for showing your inherent bias! Explain to me why LTC is more serious/devoted than any other playstyle, including ones that are arguably more difficult or time consuming (LLR, no restarts, ranked, max gold, speedruns, anything else I may be missing).

As for the italicized comment, I can only really call you ignorant. Paranoid, perhaps, but I quit tiering years ago because I felt unwelcome there. In fact, before I quoted your post, I already saw my dear friend Interceptor viewing the topic. I wonder what metaphor he'll use as a thinly veiled insult this time.

Again, unless you're doing like H5 FE11 or FE6 or some crap like that, you will not be losing because you use a cart. Are savestates convenient, if not for saving time alone? Hell yeah. But unless you find you feel like joining up in almost non-existent Lunatic drafts (which force you to use a ROM anyways), savestates aren't making or breaking you.

Again, you are wrong. If high stats were not useful, people would not RNG abuse for them, as it would be a waste of time.

Also Bors has never been considered good I don't know where the fuck you people get your information from. The biggest difference between a tier list 5 years ago and one today is the position of Thieves--because back then getting all the treasure was something we cared about.

#14 Loki Laufeyson

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:08 PM

This is my main concern. The LTC mentality has sunk into the tier lists, and its only a matter of time until units like Franz, Raven, Nolan, FE9 Oscar, etc. fall into lower-mid, low, or even bottom because they're not prepromotes, fliers, staff (aka Warp) users, or dancers.

Yeah i have noticed this. It does kinda bug the hell out of me but ehh...i just dont care enough to say much about it.

#15 PJSalt

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:17 PM

Huh? FE9 oscar is never gonna drop to mid...or Nolan/Franz for that matter. I can see Raven dropping. Also, why is having a 20 speed miccy so bad? Its been common for a lot of time now in drafts to get miccy to decent speed. Everyone should be able to abuse their Micaiahs. If not, the person with the unlucky Miccy will instantly lose no matter what...

Edited by PKL, 05 February 2012 - 08:18 PM.


#16 The_Purple_Knight

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:19 PM

Oh, I remember some comments, but I didn't know it burst into a full-blown discussion.

No it's been discussed on and off throughout the entire foot soldier vs mounted unit topic . Each discussion lasting about half a page and this last one lasting almost two pages .

#17 Othin

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:22 PM

Huh? FE9 oscar is never gonna drop to mid...or Nolan/Franz for that matter. I can see Raven dropping. Also, why is having a 20 speed miccy so bad? Its been common for a lot of time now in drafts to get miccy to decent speed. Everyone should be able to abuse their Micaiahs. If not, the person with the unlucky Miccy will instantly lose no matter what...

And you don't see the problem with that? A playstyle forcing players to spend that much more time in order to be able to be effective, while using no actual strategy or thought in the process?

#18 Sangyul

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

Huh? FE9 oscar is never gonna drop to mid...or Nolan/Franz for that matter. I can see Raven dropping. Also, why is having a 20 speed miccy so bad? Its been common for a lot of time now in drafts to get miccy to decent speed. Everyone should be able to abuse their Micaiahs. If not, the person with the unlucky Miccy will instantly lose no matter what...


I don't particularly agree with that way of thinking. Having a 20 speed Micaiah isn't bad, but if you're purposely abusing in a draft to get there, then it seems kind ... I don't know, cheap? I'm still working on my first draft with a team that I took over for someone else. I didn't abuse to get any stat points (otherwise, my Vanessa wouldn't be so pitiful). Anyone who got blessed ended up that way without any prior planning on my part. If you get a 20 speed Micaiah by chance, then by all means go wild. But when you're purposely abusing character stats in a draft ... it becomes less fun. Part of the fun in drafts, I think, is seeing how certain characters (fail to) cooperate and how the player uses the characters' screwings and blessings to his/her advantage. Abusing for stats is all right if it's not a draft, but I think that if you abuse for stats in a draft, it's kind of ... low. Draft players shouldn't abuse for stats.

#19 General Horace

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:39 PM

Getting a max speed Michiah seems like it's akin to just making sure Marcus proc's speed continuously so he utterly destroys the entire game.

I know almost nothing about FE10, but judging by people's comments, it seems to be similar.

Or like, as Boron said, people who get Vanessa to become a ORKO'ing machine.

Edited by General Horace, 05 February 2012 - 08:40 PM.


#20 PJSalt

PJSalt

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:43 PM

Why should luck play a part in who wins something? Are you both implying that there is strategy in getting a screwed Micaiah and trying to win a draft like that? Also, note that FE10 drafts require more considerable RNG abuse if miccy is not spd blessed...

Edited by PKL, 05 February 2012 - 08:45 PM.





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