414 replies to this topic

[Levant Fortner]

Charmander also gets Mega Punch.

Also he's not quite screwed over by rock types because of Metal Claw upon evolution.

Well, derp.

As for Metal Claw, true, but Geodudes and Gravelers aren't the types of mons you want to keep alive for more than a turn, or else...... KABOOM!!!

[Aquaman]

Ok
Squirtle to top
Bulba down
Moltres up a little
Char down
Weedle down/caterpie up

Ok, how about Poliwag, water absorb and Poliwraths bulkiness+bulk upped BB against Lorelei and Brunos Onix(s). Poliwrath could rise over Vaporeon....

[Peekayell]

Why is jolteon so low? Should be at least mid tier seeing as how thunderolt is buyable and it can insta promote...

[Serious Bananas]

Why is Rattata above Vaporeon? Vaporeon lasts the whole game, and doesn't face competition for Surf. Raticate is short term at best.

[Espinosa]

I think all the Eeeveelutions have their merits. Even Flareon is great if you get it, assuming that you can afford Flamethrower for it. This destroys Erika's gym and gives it a solid STAB that lasts the entire game. It also has the combination of a high physical attack stat and a very good special defence, making it a good chance for facing Psychic-types. It's Flareon who often ends up beating Sabrina on my runs, after I teach it Shadow Ball.

I think Vap, Flareon and Jolteon are about as good. Jolteon has less coverage than the other two, but excessive speed, and weakness to electric is one of the few important ones in Kanto.

Edited by Espinosa, 28 February 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Levant Fortner]

I think all the Eeeveelutions have their merits. Even Flareon is great if you get it, assuming that you can afford Flamethrower for it. This destroys Erika's gym and gives it a solid STAB that lasts the entire game. It also has the combination of a high physical attack stat and a very good special defence, making it a good chance for facing Psychic-types. It's Flareon who often ends up beating Sabrina on my runs, after I teach it Shadow Ball.

I think Vap, Flareon and Jolteon are about as good. Jolteon has less coverage than the other two, but excessive speed, and weakness to electric is one of the few important ones in Kanto.

Well, should Flareon and Jolteon rise? I was actually thinking the latter in partcular looked to be a bit low.

[Stark]

Flareon is nowhere close to the other two, but yes, it show probably go up. It doesn't have Jolteon's SPA or speed to be as good running off just 1 move, and it's physical movepool is terribad. 65 speed hurts.

[Merry Sioux]

Why is Pidgey in Mid High?

[Espinosa]

Flareon is nowhere close to the other two, but yes, it show probably go up. It doesn't have Jolteon's SPA or speed to be as good running off just 1 move, and it's physical movepool is terribad. 65 speed hurts.

Dig, Iron Tail (for some reason I can't remember how early this one is available) and Shadow Ball make for a decent enough physical movepool, I think. Sure, it's got no access to Brick Break or Mega Punch/Kick, but it's one of the best candidates to get that Shadow Ball TM, which makes it a good anti-Psychic Pokemon, rivalling Snorlax (and unlike Snorlax, it still is speedier than plenty of low-levelled trainers' Pokemon you fight as you travel around Kanto).

I think Gyarados should move up to High. You can fish them out at lv. 25 after you get a Super Rod at the same time you can start pulling Staryus, and it's very likely that it will learn Dragon Dance just on time for E4, at which point it can sweep. It certainly has nothing to do in Bottom, as raising it is efficient and the outcome is pretty much unrivalled. Thrash will last for a while, and then you teach it Earthquake (Graveler will learn it naturally on time anyway) and Return, and it won't mind the lack of a physical STAB.

[Aquaman]

1. Jolteon needs TB from the game corner.

2. Shock Wave has competition.
In the form of the Nidos, Abra/Mr Mime, and Clefairy

3. Jolteons movepool outside of electric stabs/bite is shit.

4. Pokemon don't promote and Marcia does not evolve.

5. I might raise it a little, but it really relies on TMs IMO, and does the same job that something like Pikachu does.

6. Ratata has long term use, its kinda like Linoone w/o HM surf.

7. Vaporeon is not relient on TMs much, it can just take surf, learn Aurora beam, bite and acid armour. Flareon wants shadow ball, dig and flamethrower. Jolteon really wants TB.

8. Pidgey comes early, grows to be a bit bulky, and has decent offense, not as good as Spearow, but it helps and gust/wing attack is nice for early-mid game. And later on, featherdance setup and stab WA/Return to dent things, and QA/Steel wing for for filler moves.

[Merry Sioux]

6. Ratata has long term use, its kinda like Linoone w/o HM surf.

Well if that's the case then Clefairy needs to rise out of bottom, because it has comparable stats to Rattata (less speed, better defenses), has a larger TM pool and will reach it's final form sooner. It also gets STAB Mega Punch

8. Pidgey comes early, grows to be a bit bulky, and has decent offense, not as good as Spearow, but it helps and gust/wing attack is nice for early-mid game. And later on, featherdance setup and stab WA/Return to dent things, and QA/Steel wing for for filler moves.

83/75/70 isn't anything special defensively lategame. He doesn't learn gust until level 9 and is dead weight at the 1st gym, meh vs Misty and terrible vs Lt. Surge, etc. etc.

Aside from Eirika his gym track record isn't very good at all

[Aquaman]

Still. Coming early, and it is NORMAL/flying-so it gets Normal stab.

So tackle becomes a 60 BP move early on, not bad, and as soon as it gets gust it can do well early on.

I can see it dropping one or 2 spaces, but not much more.

[Peekayell]

Dude, tackle and wing attack have terrible earlygame coverage, specially for gyms. Even availability cant save such a bad pokemon from being in the depths of low tier...IMO. Also, how is jolteon doing the same as a freaking pikachu when jolteon has much better spd and 110 satk? Please explain that to me because i dont seem to be getting it.

[Aquaman]

Pidgey can drop a bit, but its not horrible. Since early on we see plenty of bugs, and around ceruleun, we start seeing fighting/grass.
Drop to bottom of upper mid/middle of mid? Its

Pikachu can evolve at same time Jolteon does, but gets TBolt on lvl up as a pikachu.
Also, it gets better coverage and goes mixed, Jolteons only options are bite and TB.

Kanto isn't like Hoenn. Kanto has water/flying trainers everywhere, and early on, that's a bit of a nuisance-so pikachu is useful early on. Even if we don't get Pikachu, there are Voltorb we can càtch before going into Rock tunnel.

The TB TM is expensive, but lolmoney in pokemon. Its just, when we gather enough cash at the point To get The TB TM, we may have to wait until we gather enough cash for something like the Ice Beam TM. Yeah, the option to buy it and slap it on Jolteon exists, but we also have the option to slap it on Voltorb, the Nidos, Mr.Mime, Lapras, etc, etc.

[Peekayell]

Jolteon uses TB better than voltorb ever will. Jolt actually OHKOs things, which lets it not eat counters...a pokemon that completely trivializes water type trainers and lorelei should be higher than that. You seriously underestimate the power of STAB TB from jolteon...raichu will have trouble OHKOing lorelei's pokemon unlike jolt. Dont even get me started on electrode...that thing's satk is terrible.

Why give it to voltorb or pikachu when u can bench either one of them for jolt and give TB to it instead? Also, vaporeon should be higher too. STAB surf from 110 satk? Can learn ice beam, bite and stuffz and dat hp lets it take beatings like crazy.

Edited by Sirius, 29 February 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Aquaman]

Why give it to voltorb or pikachu when u can bench either one of them for jolt and give TB to it instead? Also, vaporeon should be higher too. STAB surf from 110 satk? Can learn ice beam, bite and stuffz and dat hp lets it take beatings like crazy.

By that logic, why use Jolteon when we have Zapdos?
Pikachu and Voltorb help out earlier, and Jolteon comes at the cost of not getting one of the other eeveelutions.

Vaporeon, can take water pulse/surf, bite and aurora beam, and has a nice HP cushion. Now, its slow and its def is kinda low, I don't expect it to take much from powerful physical moves. By your logic, why use Vaporeon when Squirtle is better, why use Jolteon if Zapdos is better statistically, etc, etc.
TBs base BP is 80, with +.5 stab, its 120. So, a stab TB coming off of Electrode/Raichu is still gonna OHKO random water trainers and still put a dent in Lorelei.

[Peekayell]

You missed a key point there. Zapdos has no availability at all. Jolt joins as soon as u get to erika. For zappy u have to wait til surf iirc. What is pikachu doing in earlygame that is so important? ill concede misty but hes terrible vs brock and surge. The jolteon joins and suddenly pikachu isnt looking so hot anymore...sure, raichu might dent lorelei but he will be taking counters and with that def...he doesnt like counters, not to mention that it gives lorelei a chance to full restore. Also TB is 95 u noob.

Also, zappy takes a freaking long time to catch even with 1 hp and sleep...so its incredibly time-consuming.

Edited by Sirius, 29 February 2012 - 07:50 AM.
An edit button exists. Use it.

[Aquaman]

Rarity or length of time to catch a mon isn't considered.

Also,its just, Jolteons 3rd gen is kinda crap.

Relying on TB/Shock Wave+Bite is just average. MAnectric does the same, but Hoenn has 25% ocean and 2 gyms that are weak to electric.
Jolteons just another electric type, sure, its a contender for the best, but before we get access to the power plant, we only have 3!
Pikachu comes earlier and has better type coverage. Voltorb comes around rock tunnel, and is able to outrun much of the e4 despite only having TB as an offensive option.
Jolteon gets electric stab+bite, not bad, but it can rise to upper-mid/bottom of high.
When we get tp power plant, we have 3 more options, Magnemite, Electabuzz and Zapdos.
All of which can be trained at sea.


Also, Jolteon has low def too, so its moot. at best its moveset is Twave/TB/ bite/filler.

I can rise it a little, but its really not performing as well as Raichu. Raichu gets BB/Iron Tail/Dig/QA for coverage, comes earlier, and don't even think of saying stones have competition, because we can buy them en masse.

Both abilities are situational, and Raichu has leads all over the place. Against Surge, it can TWAVE those fast mons, againt Brock, only 4 Mons you cn get have a chance
Squirtle/Bulba/Mankey/Charmader with metal claw.

Edited by The Insane One, 29 February 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[Peekayell]

Wow im so rusty at pokemon that im having trouble remembering the damage formula. Was it like this? 2*level/5+2*atk/satk*move power*life orb/choice multiplier*STAB/defending pokemon's def or sdef/50+2*1 if neutral, *2 if super effective, *4 if double effective, *0.5 if not very effective, *.25 if double not effective and finally RNG between .85 and .100 right? Completely unrelated u might think but i wanted to some calcs on jolteon and raichu vs lorelei :p

[Aquaman]

Life orb and choice mult. don't exist in 3rd gen.

Join my FRLG draft PKL, you know you want to!