414 replies to this topic

[Levant Fortner]

Ground resists fire

Ground's neutral defensively against fire. Rock, however, DOES resist fire.

[Aquaman]

Oh wait.
Damn, I was wrong.

Well, all the worse for it.
Slow as fuck, and does only great to one gym, and "ok" against Blaine and Giovanni.

Generic team rockets are piss easy. Anything takes those guys. Even Water Pulse Meowth!

[Levant Fortner]

I wanna say Twinneedle saves it and that it's good early...but that doesn't really help, does it?

Nope, because Beedrill's movepool is garbage.

[Sho.M.the.Fallen]

Can we just drop Beedrill to bottom already? Sure it has good stats early and is pretty sweet against eirika but it still suuuuucks like no tomorrow

[Aquaman]

Changes made

[kirsche]

Who actually uses status conditions when it's easy to plow through the game without having to rely on something that takes much more time? Why would you describe Bulbasaur as having "great type matchups" when half of Team Rocket resists Razor Leaf?

Because team rocket is a joke. Misty is not. Send starmie to sleep and its a hell of a lot easier.

Oh wait, let me guess - you're one of those guys that trains a team of 6 Pokemon and wonders why you're having such a hard time, so you have to rely on status moves as a crutch.

Nope, my normal strat is duo with venusaur and nidoking throughout the whole game.

Edit: Oh wait I usually catch zapdos and articuno as well. How inefficient of me.

Staryu doesn't "crush" Nidoran M. They want some of the same TMs, but Nidoran M is not that much worse on the special attacking side anyway, and he's much more solid before then with a strong physical attack in the form of Thrash. Staryu is faster, but Nidoran M is fast enough to outspeed most of the same enemies anyway given a level advantage.

When the hell do we get a level advantage? E4 go up to the 60s and our team should really, at most, be level 45 or so by then, and its not like it gets that much better earlier on. Yes we kinda equal misty level because of the nugget bridge and such, but it all goes downhill unless you're facing every single trainer along the way.

And STAB surf/psychic is ridiculous. Then throw Thunderbolt and recovert into the mix and starmie literally outclasses nidoking in almost every area. Heck, one could use ice beam instead of recove for dragon lulz if you feel like it.

That's fine; Horn Attack is plenty strong anyway.

Vine whip is stronger.

Edit: and even if nidoran > bulba, squirtle is not a tier ahead.

Edited by kirsche, 02 March 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Aquaman]

Ok, lets see Bulbasaur vs Squirtle.

vs Brock
Both win, but Bulbasaur learns Vine Whip at lvl 10, compared to bubble at lv 7

vs Rival [1]
Squirtle would be better, because Charmander likes ember spam on Bulbasaur.
And, Pidgeotto is a PItA for Bulbasaur

vs Misty-
Bulba has the win, though Squirtle gets Bite.

vs Surge-
Squirtle with dig, or Bulba with dig.
Bulba resists Electric, so it wins

vs Rival [ss anne]
Squirtle wins, Bulba hate Pidgeot, Kadabra and Charmeleon.

vs Erika
Bulba wins
Squirtle fails.

vs Giovanni [silph scope battle]
Squirtle can take more hits, but Bulba has sleep powder.
Oh wait, Kanga has early bird-nvm.
its a Tie

vs RIval [lavender]
vs Pidgeotto
Squirtle wins
vs Growlithe
Squirtle wins
vs Eggxecute
Better for Bulba to handle
vs Charmeleon
Bulba fails
vs Ivysaur
Squirtle fails
vs Kadabra
Squirtle wins

vs Rival [Silph Co]

Pidgeot-
Squirtle wins.

Growlithe-
squirtle wins

Venasaur-
Meh, if Squirtle has IBeam, it wins.
Otherwise no.

Charizard-
lolNO, Bulba doesn't dream of it

Kadabra-
Squirtle wins, Bulbas Poison type.

Eggxecute-
Both do neutral damage to it.

Rhyhorn
Both win

vs Sabrina

Venomoth-
Has psychic/AA, I believe.
Squirtle is better.

VS Mr. Mime
Squirtle wins, Bulbas part Poison.

vs Kadabra
See above

vs Alakazam
see above the above

vs Koga-
Bulba can only sleep powder here/leech seed.
Squirtle wins

vs Blaine-
lolwut?
Squirtle all the way.

vs Giovanni
Bulba doesn't do well against the 2 Nidos
Squirtle assrapes

vs RIval[just before Victory road]
Vs Pidgeot
Squirtle
vs Gyrados-
tie
vs Rhyhorn
rape it
vs Charizard
Bulba shits in its pants
vs Venasaur
Squirtle has IBeam access, otherwise it fails
vs Alakazam
Squirtle wins, this thing has Synchronize-
Sleep powder is a bad idea
vs Growlithe
Squirtle wins
vs Eggxecute
Bulba does neutral at best

vs e4

Lorelei
assuming that Squirtle has BB for this battle.

Bulba has to OHKO or it dies.

Bruno
Squirtles good here, but Bulba resists everything he throws

Agatha
Squirtle wins
Best Bulba does is sleep/seed set up or EQ Arbok

Lance-
Squirtle, IBeam.

vs Rival
Pidgeot-
Squirtle, IB

Rhydon-
Tie

Alakazam-
Squirtle is bulkier and has better Physical move access

Arcanine
Lolwut?
Surf FTW

Coconut Tree
Bulba fails.

Gyrados-
Squirtle does better.

Venasaur-
IB/Protect, this thing spams solarbeam

Charizard-
lolwut, we're going to fight this with Bulba?

Bulba is useful for 2 gyms, has sleep/seed.
But needs TMs like EQ and Secret power to function better
Oh, and sludge bomb is post e4, so don't even bring it up.

Squirtle has better bulk, does well against 6/8 gyms, and the rival battles.
Along with better coverage.
Bite/Water stab move/IB/Secret Power/EQ/BB.
and can use protect to deal with annoying shit.

[kirsche]

Ok so squirtle is clearly better in most match ups. However, the important thing to note is that, aside from blaine/Sabrina/Gary there are no huge things in squirtle's favour. The wins against misty and lt surge are definitely important though, so assuming that that negates Blaine/Sabrina one has to realise that neitehr squirlte nor bulbasaur will be participating in a vast number of those fights. In fact, Starmie/Nidoking will pretty much rape the e4 and Gary for you, as well as giovanni, koga and Blaine. This is also true for eirika, so I won't count her. It's downright pointless unless we're doing a starter solo, and last I checked it wasn't one, so the leads, which are usually minor already, are worsened to superfluous levels where is counts for squirtle. Except nidoran is worse against misty than bulba. And bulba is much better at covering for nidorans shortfalls - mainly water types - than squirtle is for obvious reasons. This means we plough through the stuff that bulba is better against with bulba, then cover his ass with nido whenever we need to, who can then get his ass covered if necessary. Squirtle is good enough at covering nidos ass but not as good.

tl;dr Nido + Bulba > Nido + Squirtle.

Also why the fuck has staryu moved DOWN? Dondon said staryu doesn't crush nidoran M after it shows up, which is a false statement in itself, and that warrants staryu being moved down a tier? Please just look at my argument and realise just how good this guy is. I even wanted him to be just below the nidos, not even above them yet he was moved down despite no arguments pointing to such.

[Aquaman]

Staryu is not around for half the game.

Mankey is around the entire game.
Mr. Mime and Abra are around for all but 2 gyms.

[kirsche]

Staryu is not around for half the game.

And in the other half steamrolls through everything living to a far greater extent than any of the high tier pokemon.

Mankey is around the entire game.

Also has no good type match ups the entire game sans lolbrock, who we're crushing with bulba or squirtle anyway. Seriously, what does he do that's worthwhile? Availability means nothing if you do nothing with it. Oh course his base stats are mediocre and his evolution is way late, so we're stuck with rubbish mankey until like koga or maybe even blaine, depending on how much we're skipping. And then Primeape still has less type coverage and arguably inferior durability (5HP vs 25 DEF and 15 SP.D, not really arguably, but meh). So its worse in both offence and defence but because it does sooooo much against misty and surge (which it doesn't) its a tier better?

Mr. Mime and Abra are around for all but 2 gyms.

Great but they're a pain in the ass to catch unless we have - wait for it - bulbasaur. And then we have to waste time grinding abras useless self until kadabra, which could last until after surge. So kadabra has eirika, and IIRC so does starmie, as you can past eirika to go straight for the poke flute. Oh and starmie has better base stats in everything sans SP.A but starmie is always hitting weak points so its very minor. You just have to look at kadabra and it faints, whereas starmie can actually take a hit. Basically, we waste early exp into abra to get an inferior starmie minutes earlier than starmie. At least when starmia plays catch up it can actually help, abra just wastes time constantly switching out.

Oh and mr mime has the same durability problems, except he has the same SP.A as starmie (with a bit more SP.D, which is clearly a winning stat) and what does mr mime do before starmie arrives? LolSurge with nido/diglett, and then eirika - oh wait starmie exists then too. Yes mr mime does win against the star here but stramie exists which is apparently so important. Oh and then starmie rapes just in case you didn't realise already.

Even diglett, who is useful against Surge, isn't that great elsewhere as after surge his type isn't really wanted. Eirika/Sabrina/Koga aren't exactly great matchups for him, as koga has lots of levitate, eirika is super effective and starmie resist sabrina so starmie wins. Lolblaine, lolgiovanni, though starmie wins because I think one of the nidos has surf, whcih can be damaging. e4 and gary are clear wins to starmie. So again, how is diglett > staryu? We have nido for surge anyway.

Why does availability matter that much anyway? If it did why is pidgey in mid? Why is weedle bottom. He's there for every gym, mr mime misses two of them. Weedle > Mr Mime.

Zapdos > Magnemite still needs to be done. But I'm not having staryu in upper mid when its clearly one of the best pokemon there.

Edited by kirsche, 02 March 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Aquaman]

Moved Staryu.

also, Mr. Mime get Magical leaf, and TB access.
and trade exp growth is very high

[kirsche]

Yes but surf > magical leaf.

I would say that abra should drop below mr mime, as grinding him is simply not worth it.

Edited by kirsche, 02 March 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Aquaman]

So you're saying that we should dump 100K of resources on Staryu+the one psychic tm on it?

I mean, psychic is lowish pp.
Boltbeam too.
Surf has like 15.

As for Abra, I get what you're saying, but Psychic types rape TRocket.
and, we can just switch it in/out and it gains exp like a mofo.

[Levant Fortner]

we can just switch it in/out and it gains exp like a mofo.

...And there's Abra's problem; it requires switch-grinding to be useful. And I'm not exactly fond of switch-grinding a Pokemon until it evolves...

Edited by Metal King Slime, 02 March 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Aquaman]

Yeah.
How about switching with Gastly/Drowzee.

Gastly can be caught as a haunter, and as soo as psychic tm is gotten, it has offense.
Give it theif/shock wave/TB, and its good.

Drowzee....can go mixed, is bulky, and has confusion at base.

Also, Staryu does steamroll with TMs, and frlg e4 is a giant PITA to me.

[kirsche]

So you're saying that we should dump 100K of resources on Staryu+the one psychic tm on it?

A water stone, psychic and ice beam/thunderbolt is 100K resources? We'd give kadabra/mr mime psychic anyway and I don't see any better candidates for ice beam/thunder bolt aside from zapdos, which is why I say ice beam/thunder bolt.

I mean, psychic is lowish pp.
Boltbeam too.
Surf has like 15.

Its enough to get you through the e4 with a few elixers, which you should be saving for this point anyway, as you can just poke centre it back at otehr times.

As for Abra, I get what you're saying, but Psychic types rape TRocket.

Yep and starmie is psychic too, so with the exception of pokemon tower, where does this come into play?

and, we can just switch it in/out and it gains exp like a mofo.

Which is far more effort than we need for most pokemon.

[Aquaman]

Yeah, good point.
Every water wants IB.
Clefairy, Nidos, Gastly and Mime want TB.

Still, I can't really say no to Staryu going above solid, powerful mons with twice the availibility.
Mankey rapes Normals, does well on Lorelei, and Chops anything not poison/psychic.

It can take rock slide tutor, bulk up/screech, cross chop/BB, AA, EQ, dig....
Its solid, and comes early.
I just don't believe that Mankey<Staryu.
But, I'll rise it to just above Mankey and no more.
Nidos and the 3 starters are not moving unless someone makes an amazing argument.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Zapdos should be above Magnemite.

Same Availability
Better Movepool
Better Stats
Higher Level

[Aquaman]

Ok, anything else you guys want to put up?

Also, shadow ball is a casino TM, along with iron tail.
We can also get Scyther/pinser/dratini early at casino, if we decide to not go for TMs.

[kirsche]

Every water wants IB.

Every water is mediocre aside from staryu and squirtle. The next water mon after staryu in the list is vaporeon all teh way down in mid.

Clefairy, Nidos, Gastly and Mime want TB.

And all of them are far worse. I've already addressed mime being worse than staryu, and gastly is well down all the way in mid because we have to get the silph scope for a tier 2 pokemon who is, for the most part, mediocre.

Nidos yes, but they have plenty of other moves to be satisfied with.

Clefairy is lol.

Again the main contest for TB is magnemite and Zapdos, so that's why you can give starmie ice beam instead.

Still, I can't really say no to Staryu going above solid, powerful mons with twice the availibility.

I'm guessing this is sarcastic, and again their availbility lead is worthless when one's a pain to trin, one's a pain to get (mime for catching abra), one is not solid at all (mankey) and the other is around for just one extra gym, which isn't half the game. Heck, Staryu probably comes in around the third mark, not the halfway mark, considering silph co, the islands and the e4 as well as the champ.

Mankey rapes Normals, does well on Lorelei, and Chops anything not poison/psychic.

Normals are lol though, lorelei is easier defeated by starmie too so I don't understand why you even mentioned her and honestly, the late evolution is terrible it doesn't evolve until around koga, and then we get zapdos so what's the point?

It can take rock slide tutor, bulk up/screech, cross chop/BB, AA, EQ, dig....

That's all well and good but fighting just doesn't cover enough types. You kill things quickly by getting super effective hits, I don't want to go through 3-4 rounds of cross chopping everything.

Its solid, and comes early.

It's mediocre and brings nothing to the team. You mention it does well against lorelei and she's at the very end of the game, and still he's worse than Starmie at beating her for no resistance.

Nidos and the 3 starters are not moving unless someone makes an amazing argument.

Well can you explain why the nidos are seperated by two pokes?

We can also get Scyther/pinser/dratini early at casino, if we decide to not go for TMs.

What levels do we get them from the casino again?

Edited by kirsche, 02 March 2012 - 02:53 PM.