414 replies to this topic

[Anouleth]

Seems to me that Caterpie should at least be above Tangela. Caterpie gets access to more accurate Spore and Powder moves (Tangela needs to use a move relearner to get access to Sleep Powder, too), is faster, around for longer iirc (don't you have to wait until you get Surf to get Tangela). Butterfree also gets some nice psychic moves like Confusion and Psybeam that are great against the tons of poison-types, and can learn Psychic and Dream Eater, while Tangela is limited pretty much to Grass moves, which have worse coverage. You'd also have to expend the Giga Drain TM on it since Tangela's strongest move initially is Mega Drain.

[Sakusa]

I'd like to argue Vaporeon above Growlithe. o3o Fire doesn't really have good coverage in Gen III in general, and it's almost Fire-locked, which makes me cringe. Growlithe/Arcanine gets done in by Rock, Water, Ground types, which are relatively common. Vaporeon, on the other hand, has great defensive typing, being weak only to Grass and Electric and regaining HP from Water, resisting Ice, Fire, and Steel. However, Vaporeon's movepool is more diverse forever with a respectable SpA stat and can increase its durability with Acid Armor and Baton Pass it as well. While Growlithe/Arcanine does better against Erika and both are about even when it comes to Sabrina and Koga. Vaporeon has a significant edge against Blaine, and Arcanine doesn't want anything to do with Giovanni unless you're sure it can one-shot any of Giovanni's Pokemon. Vaporeon walls Lorelei all day when Arcanine's afraid of the Water-typing, Bruno packs Ground and Rock-type moves, so unless you're confident about a one-shot, I won't recommend it. Agatha's a tool, so both of them can do well, and Lance walls Arcanine completely. Vaporeon can at least dish out damage with a 2x or 4x effective Ice/Aurora Beam against most of his team or Surf to win against Aerodactyl and tank hits. Against Gary/Green/Blue/WhateverYouCallHim, I want to say Vaporeon wins here, too, due to sheer versatility.

Edited by Sona Buvelle, 07 March 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Espinosa]

I'd say Arcanine is better for Lorelei because it at least threatens Jynx (I would never switch Vaporeon in against any of Lorelei's Pokemon because it simply has nothing decent to attack them with - besides maybe Surfing for Jynx, but you don't want to get sleep'd).

One advantage Arcanine has over Vaporeon is speed. Vap is pretty slow, while Arcanine will almost always go first against the weaker mooks in random encounters. Vap certainly has better coverage and the moves of the correct type (Surf + Ice Beam is really good in Kanto), though, with better matchups against the gyms and E4 all around.

A big problem with Arcanine is that it doesn't learn Flamethrower unless you postpone your Growlithe's evolution until lv. 49, which is a horrible idea. Flame Wheel at lv. 31 is also a bit late and depending on when you evolve for far better base stats, you might not even see that one. Blaine gives you the Fire Blast TM a bit too late, so I would say training Arcanine is seriously inefficient. Vap just takes the free Surf, would appreciate Ice Beam, conserves PP by attacking ghosts and psychics with Bite, and faces no such problems.

I would personally put Vaporeon somewhere above Snorlax.

[Aquaman]

Money isn't a problem, we can get flamethrower for Growlithe/vulpix/flareon asap.

Of course, any water with good sp attack and either great bulk or massive speed or both is awesome in kanto.

Also, baton pass utility is not a good point for eevee, postponing evolution until like lvl 30ish.

Also, Loreleis lapras has a lvl advantage, and body slam... And thunder (I think).

[Anouleth]

Uh, any responses to Caterpie over Tangela?

[Aquaman]

Caterpies been moved up.

Tangela needs bottom now, any objections?

Also, Arcanine may rise a slot, it arrives in an area with a lot of scrub trainers, and can insta evolve as soon as celedon. Buy flamethrower and dig/secret power, keep bite, and its pretty good.

Also, Arcanines got some damn impressive att/sp att/spd too!

So, if it gets the resources it wants, it can plow through erika, sabrina, do heavy damage to koga, dig on blaine, and do heavy damage to Giovannis none-rock types, because ground does not resist fire.

Edited by The Insane One, 08 March 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Merry Sioux]

I have to agree with Anouleth. Caterpie is much better than where the list has him currently, and he is easily better than Tangela. IMO he is a decent mid to upper-mid Pokemon. While Tangela should really be in bottom

[Aquaman]

Ok, but Caterpies one problem is durability. But hell, its a support mon with psychic attacks.

Mid of upper mid.

[Espinosa]

Yeah, Caterpie may have low bases, but it has a quick promotion, good supports as well as some nice mobility.

[Aquaman]

Yeah, Caterpie may have low bases, but it has a quick promotion, good supports as well as some nice mobility.

Dude, this isn't FE.

Mobility in pokemon?
Does not compute.

[Merry Sioux]

Ok, but Caterpies one problem is durability. But hell, its a support mon with psychic attacks.

Mid of upper mid.

Butterfree: 60/50/80

Wartortle: 59/80/80

Considering Wartorle is the bulkiest starter and doesn't evolve until level 36, Butterfree isn't that bad in terms of durability. Also, Butterfree has better special attack than Wartortle.

[Espinosa]

I personally don't see the point of training a Butterfree long-term. Its offence stays bad with no decent STAB for a long time (until that really late Silver Wind, and it's weak and obsolete when you do get it). Confusion is nice early on for all those Machops and poisons, but as the rest of your team grows, you'll find that Butterfree only has the powders and everybody else does the attacking better. Wartortle, on the other hand, gets Water Pulse from Misty, has a versatile learnset (mainly from TMs, but he's a great candidate for them) and can solo the game. Can Butterfree solo the game? There you go. Not a fair comparison.

[Merry Sioux]

Perhaps I should do a Butterfree solo then

[Aquaman]

ok, this was a bad idea.

Edited by The Insane One, 08 March 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Espinosa]

Cubone is really average. It comes low-levelled when you can first see it after getting the Silph Scope, and its typing being pure ground is actually kinda bad for this game. You can't hit the Koffing and Gastly families with your attacks anymore and those are problematic enemies to deal with. Bone Club, the one thing that makes Cubone special, is so rare that you might as well beat the whole game in the time spent farming it (even with save states and a Pokemon with the Thief TM, which says something to say the least). Without it, Marowak doesn't stand out at all, with average offence and poor speed. Sure, it's bulky, but you're better off using Graveler and Sandslash, or Dugtrio who comes at such a high level, for their better availability and offensive potential.

By the way, can you skip the ghost Marowak in this version of RBY? If that's the case, we have a "Cubone doesn't exist" argument.

[Aquaman]

no, we can't

also, its not moving, you made your point.

What about Clefairy rising, anyone?

[Espinosa]

Evolves very early with a Moon Stone and boasts really high bases for that point. Can learn Mega Punch to have a nice STAB, though its physical attack is nothing to write home about. Can take on Misty's Starmie with the help of Sing/Encore (let it do something useless and force it to repeat it), which is desirable if your starter isn't Wartortle or Ivysaur. Its special learnset is diverse giving it great coverage, and it does have a nice special attack stat, plus Calm Mind access which gives it setup options. However, it's kinda slow.

I would say it's deserving of High tier anyway, somewhere above Mankey perhaps, since being fighting-type isn't a huge advantage in this game unless you're beating up normal-type mooks (which anyone can do without super-effective damage really).

[Aquaman]

Evolves very early with a Moon Stone and boasts really high bases for that point. Can learn Mega Punch to have a nice STAB, though its physical attack is nothing to write home about. Can take on Misty's Starmie with the help of Sing/Encore (let it do something useless and force it to repeat it), which is desirable if your starter isn't Wartortle or Ivysaur. Its special learnset is diverse giving it great coverage, and it does have a nice special attack stat, plus Calm Mind access which gives it setup options. However, it's kinda slow.

I would say it's deserving of High tier anyway, somewhere above Mankey perhaps, since being fighting-type isn't a huge advantage in this game unless you're beating up normal-type mooks (which anyone can do without super-effective damage really).

Also, Boltbeam, meteor mash, and softboiled.

[Espinosa]

Meteor Mash is learnt at lv. 45 in the event you don't evolve, which is a really stupid stunt to pull off. Softboiled doesn't sound bad except items are more effective and you should have enough money to afford them. I'd rather have Calm Mind and more attacks for coverage. But yeah, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam access makes it good, because these two types not only hit everything for at least neutral damage besides Magnemites, but they also happen to hit a lot of stuff effectively, penetrating some key 4x weaknesses too.

Psychic, ice and electric are probably the best types in FR/LG, with Ground losing its position due to all the Levitate Pokemon out there.

[Aquaman]

Meteor Mash is learnt at lv. 45 in the event you don't evolve, which is a really stupid stunt to pull off. Softboiled doesn't sound bad except items are more effective and you should have enough money to afford them. I'd rather have Calm Mind and more attacks for coverage. But yeah, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam access makes it good, because these two types not only hit everything for at least neutral damage besides Magnemites, but they also happen to hit a lot of stuff effectively, penetrating some key 4x weaknesses too.

Psychic, ice and electric are probably the best types in FR/LG, with Ground losing its position due to all the Levitate Pokemon out there.

Actually, the only worthwhile levitate mon is the gastly line.

Maybe Koffing, but low sp def vs the amount of e4 mons that have good sp att is derp