414 replies to this topic

[Anouleth]

I personally don't see the point of training a Butterfree long-term. Its offence stays bad with no decent STAB for a long time (until that really late Silver Wind, and it's weak and obsolete when you do get it). Confusion is nice early on for all those Machops and poisons, but as the rest of your team grows, you'll find that Butterfree only has the powders and everybody else does the attacking better. Wartortle, on the other hand, gets Water Pulse from Misty, has a versatile learnset (mainly from TMs, but he's a great candidate for them) and can solo the game. Can Butterfree solo the game? There you go. Not a fair comparison.

Thank you for figuring out that Butterfree is not the best pokemon in the game.

How about Butterfree versus Golbat? Golbat is limited to Wing Attack for a good long while, which, while stronger than Psybeam (90 attack versus 65 attack) has inferior coverage. Statistically, they're both pretty meh. And Butterfree has options that are stronger than Psybeam such as Psychic, Dream Eater, and Shadow Ball, plus all those nifty status moves.

[Aquaman]

Shadow balls a physical move, Dream eater is kinda gimmicky.

[Espinosa]

I was questioning the one statement that argued that Butterfree has good durability because its relevant base stats are comparable to a starter Pokemon's 2nd tier form. You don't see anyone hyping up Onix because he has far more physical durability than Mankey, and that in itself would be a valid argument.

Anyway, I don't see why Butterfree wouldn't rise over Tangela or Golbat because those two are pretty bad. Having a powerful Psychic move in Psybeam (and if you're not training anything else that would probably put it to better use, the actual Psychic TM in Saffron) is more rewarding than anything Tangela and Golbat offer. Tangela requires Surf access and is either underlevelled when you catch it, or comes without Sleep Powder if you catch a higher levelled one. Erika's Giga Drain is its only real option for offence and it's easy to tell how long that one will last.

Golbat has to endure a bit of tedium before it learns Wing Attack a little before it evolves from Zubat, and that amount of tedium is compared and I would say even surpasses that which is needed to raise a Caterpie, so there's absolutely nothing that makes Golbat superior to a Butterfree either. If it could learn Sludge bomb and evolve into Crobat like in the previous generation, then maybe they'd be about even.

If we talk about status move usage, Butterfree is faster than Tangela and has an accurate sleeping move while Zubat is stuck with an inaccurate confusing move (55% accurate Supersonic is just bad) and weak flinching.

Butterfree's no spectacular Pokemon but yeah, Psychic move access alone makes it better than those other two you brought up, I've no doubt about it.

[Aquaman]

Ok, Caterpie to...top of upper mid?

Also, last page, someone made a point about surf+IB being excellent coverage for kanto.

So, any water with decent sp attack can go up, I guess.

Psyduck
In addition to S+IB, BB, AA, and Dig.
Slowpoke
In addition to s+IB, it has acess to
Shadow ball, Flamethrower/fire blast, dig, BB and psychic
Seel
Signal beam
Cloyster
....IDK anything about this
Lapras
Body slam, Psychic, TB.
Vaporeon
Bite...acid armour...ummm....
Tentacool
SB, Giga drain, barrier, confuse ray.

Poliwrath-
Bulk up/belly drum, BB, EQ, Rock Slide, hydro pump.....

What else?

[Espinosa]

Dewgong and Tentacruel have pretty poor special attack bases. Dewgong's Ice Beam receiving STAB is nice, though, but it's also kinda slow. Lapras comes at such a low level, that it is inefficient to train it.

Slowbro is one of the slowest Pokemon you could possibly train, and we should take that into account and not only its diverse movepool. It's good for facing other Psychics though, regardless of whether it gets Shadow Ball or not (I believe Surf will hit harder).

Cloyster does have good bulk and gets dual STABs, and its speed actually isn't that bad. Once you get a Super Rod, you can fish a Shellder out at lv. 25.

I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher.

[Aquaman]

Dewgong and Tentacruel have pretty poor special attack bases. Dewgong's Ice Beam receiving STAB is nice, though, but it's also kinda slow. Lapras comes at such a low level, that it is inefficient to train it.

Slowbro is one of the slowest Pokemon you could possibly train, and we should take that into account and not only its diverse movepool. It's good for facing other Psychics though, regardless of whether it gets Shadow Ball or not (I believe Surf will hit harder).

Cloyster does have good bulk and gets dual STABs, and its speed actually isn't that bad. Once you get a Super Rod, you can fish a Shellder out at lv. 25.

I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher.

1-
80-100 isn't bad, its merely averageish

2-Slowbro, like SNorlax-can take a crapton of hits.

3-Cloyster has shit sp def

4-Golduck has like 85-90 base att and screech. It only gets Psychic through breeding.



Also, Cloyster has awesome def, but shit sp def and lowish HP.
And, the e4 likes Rock and Fighting moves.

Slowbro, has nice def/sp def/hp, and can CM+IB/Surf/Psychic/Flamethrower+Shadow Ball/EQ the e4 while sustaining a lot of damage.

Edited by The Insane One, 09 March 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[General James]

I don't see how Golduck benefits from Aerial Ace and Dig, but it gets Psychic and Calm Mind. Add that to the usual water-type Surf/Ice Beam combo, and with its high speed it has setup-and-sweep capabilities. Consider moving it up much higher.

Uh, Golduck cannot use TM29. The only way to get Psychic in its moveset is through breeding(Slowpoke family), which cannot be done until you get the rainbow pass(since the breeding center is on Floe Island), which neccessitates not only beating the Elite Four, but also catching or evolving 60 species of Pokemon and visiting the first three Sevii Islands(Knot, Boon, and Kin Islands)during the Bill sidequest.

Even if the breeding center WASN'T on Floe Island, you'd still have the problem of having to obtain a male Slowpoke with Psychic first(Slowpoke learns Psychic at the high level of 40, Slowbro gets it at Lv44. You COULD use the TM29, but that's better used on things that don't learn it naturally or those at unreasonable levels for ingame runs.), waiting a while before your Psyduck egg shows up AND hatches(Psyduck takes 5120 steps to hatch), then having to grind a Lv5 hatchling 40 levels.

Edited by darkandroid125, 09 March 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Espinosa]

Yeah, I'm not going to argue Psychic is a reasonable option anymore, thanks for correcting me there. I wonder why I was so sure Golduck always had access to Psychic? Are there any more instances of Pokemon who can learn moves by breeding but can't learn the same moves via TM? Excluding learnset changes with new generations.

[General James]

Yeah, I'm not going to argue Psychic is a reasonable option anymore, thanks for correcting me there. I wonder why I was so sure Golduck always had access to Psychic? Are there any more instances of Pokemon who can learn moves by breeding but can't learn the same moves via TM? Excluding learnset changes with new generations.

As far as I know, no. well, Ok, there's things like Pokes getting screens through breeding that they don't get through TM, but I don't give two shits about setting up anything that isn't going to help me kill shit faster ingame. As far as offensive attacks go, other than the Psyduck dealie, no Pokemon learns a TM move through breeding that they can't get through the TM.

[Aquaman]

I'm thinking Electabuzz up, it comes same time as Zapdos, and has a better tm movepool. Along with naturally learned TB.

I'd think to put it above magnemite at least....anyone have any input on this?

[Sakusa]

I don't really wanna say it's above Magnemite. Steel has a bunch of awesome resists, namely Psychic/Dragon/Ghost and immunity to Poison, and Magneton hits harder, though at the cost of speed. Another problem with Magneton is the need for a Thunderbolt TM, which Electabuzz can learn naturally, albeit at a high level, so I dunno. :<

Edited by Sakusa, 12 March 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Venusaur]

I'm thinking Electabuzz up, it comes same time as Zapdos, and has a better tm movepool. Along with naturally learned TB.

I'd think to put it above magnemite at least....anyone have any input on this?

Well, first of all it doesn't even exist in LeafGreen, a minor point, sure, but it's still something. Also, that natural Thunderbolt is at Lv. 47, so it might as well not even exist at all... Still, ThunderPunch is pretty good for a while. Magneton ends up being much more powerful, though, 120 vs 95 in SA...

In summary, Electabuzz wins until Magnemite evolves, but loses afterwards.

[Espinosa]

Electabuzz's natural access to Thunderbolt is actually pretty important, as its bases are good right off the bat and Thunderpunch is better than what the other electrics, besides Pikachu, get. Electrode, Magnemite, Jolteon and even Zapdos all require a Thunderbolt TM to function well, and in this generation Surge gives you a Shock Wave TM instead, so you have to waste quite a lot of money buying coins in the casino to get a TM, and the same amount of money could be used for, say, Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, so catching Electabuzz is actually a very efficient choice.

[Aquaman]

Yeah, good point, also, Zapdos has whirlwind (I think)
I caught one with whirlwind once, but every other one didn't have it....must've been a glitch or something.

Electabuzz up soon, anything else folks?

[Aere]

Why is NidoF below the other two starters? It's pretty much on par with NidoM, what does one KO the other cannot?

[Venusaur]

Electabuzz's natural access to Thunderbolt is actually pretty important, as its bases are good right off the bat and Thunderpunch is better than what the other electrics, besides Pikachu, get. Electrode, Magnemite, Jolteon and even Zapdos all require a Thunderbolt TM to function well, and in this generation Surge gives you a Shock Wave TM instead, so you have to waste quite a lot of money buying coins in the casino to get a TM, and the same amount of money could be used for, say, Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, so catching Electabuzz is actually a very efficient choice.

The only problem that I have with this is that Magneton's natural Spark (120 SA with a 97.5 BP move) is just as good as that natural Electabuzz Thunderpunch (95 SA with a 112.5 BP move), and it's quite unlikely that we're hitting Lv. 47 at all, and even if we do it's probably not for very long, maybe hitting it for Lance and Blue at best. Granted, it's still a nice advantage, but not that large, as it isn't around for very long.

Also, I think the fossils should move above Porygon, at least they exist without wasting tons of money.

[dondon151]

Why is NidoF below the other two starters? It's pretty much on par with NidoM, what does one KO the other cannot?

Probably quite a bit, actually. The NidoranM line has a somewhat significant base Atk lead on the NidoranF line (10 at all evolutionary stages) and Nidoking also has a 10 base SpA lead on Nidoqueen. Horn Attack runs off Nidorino's higher Atk stat compared to Bite, which runs off Nidorina's much lower SpA stat. Thrash is also a touch more powerful than Body Slam, and Megahorn is arguable more useful than Superpower because it doesn't force you to switch out afterwards.

But mainly, the 10 base difference in Atk and SpA does matter. Neither of the Pokemon are particularly powerhouses in the offensive stats and rely on type coverage to hit a lot of things.

[Espinosa]

Lv. 47 is very realistic for the E4 in this game actually. If you're training a team of 3 or 4, or even less, you should make it to that level before Lorelei without any grinding. Also, while Magneton has the superior typing, Electabuzz is fast and covers a lot of types with Thunderpunch, Psychic (he might as well get it early if you're not training any of the Psychics) and Brick Break.

And while King is definitely better than Queen, I don't see why there'd be two spots in between. Especially seeing how Venusaur and Charizard still has insufficient coverage (namely Venusaur) and endgame performance and approximately the same base stats as Nidoqueen.

[Merry Sioux]

Looking at this list in Retrospect (and drawing from my experiences from my recent LG PT) can someone tell me why Bulbasaur > Charmander?

And please don't say Brock and Misty.

[frat_tastic]

Brock and Misty.

(also I guess resistance to Surge, beats Giovanni/Lorelei? I think Charmander really struggles a lot in the early game.)