96 replies to this topic

[Colonel M]

That's what we have rescue option for. Use it.

Rescue doesn't save Lilina from getting nuked by 2 range when she attacks.

Only one that's any good since both Light and Dark tomes are horribly heavy.

...Have you played this game? Light and Dark tomes in this game aren't that heavy. Slightly heavier than Anima, but its not a huge ordeal except with Niime sometimes.

Speaking of Niime, she's better than all the anima mages (si not Valkyries) combined.

Lilina is someone that I use in every run. Because I can't stand Lugh's low Mag and having a chance to waste EXP if he got screwed which can happen with a 35% chance (Having to bench him later cuz of it) in comparison to Lilina which she is almost always going to guarantee to max out in Mag.

You realize in return that Lilina has a 35% Spd growth with 4 base Spd and is probably competing against at least a Level 7 Lugh?

Not to mention that she can battle Dragons rather well with nearly any tome without having to need Forblaze.

No, she can't. If you're facing dragons, you better whip out at least Wyrmslayer. Besides, they're rather rare... Outside of late late game.

Useful in the desert chapter, battling Wyverns, bosses, etc.

*facepalm. Did you miss the last two pages where Anouleth and dondon tore that theory to shreds or were you too busy loligagging at Lilina?

Can use Elfire from the get-go. But with her mediocre skill and great Mag. It's not like she will need anything other than Fire, Thunder, and Aircalibur throughout the game. Although she will need Forblaze on Murdock and Zephiel.

............... Oh dear Cob what am I reading?

Also earlygame, it's not like no one else other than Lilina and Rutgar will do hardly any damage to any of the earlygame bosses.

Who cares about doing damage when you can't hit them worth shit? You know who else does damage to bosses? Remember Marcus? Zealots? Gonzales? Hey they can do damage to bosses too, and at least the first two have excuses sometimes to combat them. But none stand to Rutger because he's the most accurate. Except under rare circumstances, if you aren't using Rutger on bosses You're Doing It Wrong.<tm>

Because of Lilina's fraility, she will need to be rescued constantly from 1~2 ranged users.

Last time I checked, I don't think you can rescue dead units. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Other than that..she will be a great asset. Especially with the Roy supports.

So...

7/10

If this is what man kind has created... Why can't I destroy it!?!

Edited by Colonel M, 27 March 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[Anouleth]

That's what we have rescue option for. Use it.

So I have to devote two units to making sure that Lilina doesn't die, leave the boss on his 1-range weapon (making it harder for 1-range units to strike him), and for what? For Lilina to deal barely more damage than they heal back at horrible hit rates?

Seriously: Lilina is not good against bosses. There are people who are more accurate, deal better damage, and don't force you to juggle them around to stop them from instantly dying.

Lilina is someone that I use in every run. Because I can't stand Lugh's low Mag and having a chance to waste EXP if he got screwed which can happen with a 35% chance (Having to bench him later cuz of it) in comparison to Lilina which she is almost always going to guarantee to max out in Mag. Not to mention that she can battle Dragons rather well with nearly any tome without having to need Forblaze. Useful in the desert chapter, battling Wyverns, bosses, etc. Can use Elfire from the get-go. But with her mediocre skill and great Mag. It's not like she will need anything other than Fire, Thunder, and Aircalibur throughout the game. Although she will need Forblaze on Murdock and Zephiel.

Lilina is a very poor choice to fight Zephiel because of his sky-high resistance and ability to counter-attack. Lilina would need to be level 20/14 to not get OHKOed by Zephiel, and even at that advanced level, she won't double him so she will 5HKO him.

Also earlygame, it's not like no one else other than Lilina and Rutgar will do hardly any damage to any of the earlygame bosses.

Actually, a lot of other units can deal decent damage, such as Marcus, Zealot, Dieck, and even Alan and Lance, potentially. After all, Lilina usually does 10 damage or less, so all you need to do is be able to wield a light brand and not get OHKOed on enemy phase to outperform her.

[Levant Fortner]

So I have to devote two units to making sure that Lilina doesn't die, leave the boss on his 1-range weapon (making it harder for 1-range units to strike him), and for what? For Lilina to deal barely more damage than they heal back at horrible hit rates?

Seriously: Lilina is not good against bosses. There are people who are more accurate, deal better damage, and don't force you to juggle them around to stop them from instantly dying.

And adding on to this, thrones give a +5 boost to resistance.

[Integrity]

Going to tally now, but I'm keeping my eye on this. I'll take a late revision or two, considering how pure holey this argument seems to be.

EDIT: Okay, I'm going to have to think hard about this one.

I'm rating her based on her performance in my style of playing. I use 4, maybe 5, units in total per PT. this way my units really need to be overpowered past midgame to be able to handle everything thrown at them.

This is dangerously skirting the edge of "I'm rating her this highly because she performs well when you feed her all the kills." I'm all for alternative playstyles and all that, mate, but this is sorta stretching what I consider acceptable.

Between that and the logic holes in the other 7/10, I might end up tossing these but we'll see where the thread goes.

Edited by Integrity, 27 March 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[Baldrick]

Fire has 5 MT.

Good thing she has the magic to compensate for it.

by the way i'm gonna point out that thrones give +5 res

and of course lilina has no effective weapons outside of aircalibur

...Shit

OK, I'm going to revise her position from bosskiller to boss chipper.

narshen's a no-no unless lilina can somehow reach 44 mag, because she gets doubled until 20/5 on average by a huge self-healing atk (runesword hits def and doesn't cut atk in FE6)

which means narshen's probably going to heal off the damage done both on PP and EP because he doubles lilina

With Forblaze, she could OHKO him at 20/8 with A Roy, so it's not outside the realms of possibility. But realistically, she'll be dealing the finishing blow after he's been weakened a tad. Narshen can't counter her if he's dead.

i don't understand this statement. almost every boss in FE6 has a 2-range option, and halfway into the game they pretty consistently have strong 2-range options (the exception is alucard with his javelin).

But what most bosses also have is a stronger 1-range option.

Base level Lilina will only do 5 damage per hit to Henning with Elfire, 22 accuracy.

Good thing she tends not to be base, then?

I find 4 levels in this chapter to be a reasonable assumption. (Not in efficiency, but I'm not delusional enough to even attempt arguing for her use in efficiency.) Level 5 Lilina with C Roy has 6 damage at 52 with Fire. Not bad for a growth unit one chapter in.

You skipped out:
-Scott OHKOes Lilina until she's level 9, and he doubles her until she's level 19, and he has high crit on her forever. A level 9 Lilina (overlevelled as fuck) faces 53 hit from him.
-Lilina barely damages Nord. A level 10 Lilina has 20 attack, so she'll deal 6 damage a turn with 31 accuracy. Lilina is in return, 2HKOed and doubled at 79 hit, and Nosferatu heals him too.
-She's ~okay against Zinc, but she still only does 13 damage a turn at 53 hit and needs constant healing. Zinc is relatively a very weak boss.
-Can't even damage Oro.
-Morgan OHKOes her until she's level 14 and doubles her until she's level 15. And she's back to single-digit damage, assuming she gains about two levels per chapter.
-Gelero doubles her until she's promoted and OHKOes her until she's level 19.

You can forget about her doing anything against magic bosses not called Windam. All of the other bosses have a short-range weapon. Who apart from Armorslayer Rutger is doing double-digit damage to Morgan?

So I have to devote two units to making sure that Lilina doesn't die, leave the boss on his 1-range weapon (making it harder for 1-range units to strike him), and for what? For Lilina to deal barely more damage than they heal back at horrible hit rates?

Roy and Oujay/Gonzales is probably following her around, (yes, they're not the best of units, but their support adds up, and they're fast enough that you don't have to go at STP to build them), and you're probably setting up a unit to counter them on the EP, and unless it's an archer, the boss will have his 1 range weapon equipped afterwards anyway. Maybe it's just my style, but because bosses tend to be tough, and at the end of the level, I bring most of my party to their room to help out. And Lilina, given a little help, tends to have better numbers than most of them.

Seriously: Lilina is not good against bosses. There are people who are more accurate, deal better damage, and don't force you to juggle them around to stop them from instantly dying.

True. Their name is Rutger.

[whase]

This is dangerously skirting the edge of "I'm rating her this highly because she performs well when you feed her all the kills." I'm all for alternative playstyles and all that, mate, but this is sorta stretching what I consider acceptable.

Between that and the logic holes in the other 7/10, I might end up tossing these but we'll see where the thread goes.

are you saying I should give my vote based on how other people play this game?

@bosskiller discussion; I know this won't count and everything, but Lilina can abuse the first boss. give her a few fire tomes, a healer on either side and C support Roy nearby. easy enough.
just felt like sharing, I know it won't get her any points.

[Mekkah]

Fuck I'm late

Arguing about Lilina and debunking the most common misconceptions about her? It's like I traveled back in time.

1/10, -1 bias point from an actual 2/10. The lengths people are willing to go to make it look like Lilina is anything but garbage is unbelievable. The amount of favouritism it takes to make Lilina even remotely acceptable turns units like Ward and Bors into absolute powerhouses. There's only a couple worse units in this game, and funnily enough, one of them joins in the same chapter (Wendy), and the other is pretty much like her if she joined 8 maps later and took up Dark magic instead (Sophia).

Here is a unit that is ORKO'd by every single enemy you encounter for a long, long time, yet needs to be close to enemies to even do anything (unlike say, a dancer). Get that through your head, please. That alone should dock around 5 points off her score!

[Little Al]

are you saying I should give my vote based on how other people play this game?

There's different playstyles, and there's either ignoring the cons completely, or sugarcoating the cons in order to make them seem like pros. Both you and Ayanami are doing the underlined.

Edited by Little Al, 27 March 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[dondon151]

That's what we have rescue option for. Use it.

Aha, this is a supremely ironic statement. Reducing your turncount is what we have the rescue option for. Why don't you use it?

Only one that's any good since both Light and Dark tomes are horribly heavy.

you must be legitimately retarded

Lightning and Divine are some of the lightest tomes in the game. Dark tomes are not "horribly heavy" - Nosferatu, the heaviest common-use dark tome, only incurs a 1 AS penalty on Ray and a 2 AS penalty on Niime, but it hits harder than any of Elfire, Aircalibur, or Divine and significantly augments a unit's EP potential. Lastly Apocalypse is by far the best S rank tome because it actually OHKOs enemy manaketes (hint: Lilina doesn't OHKO chapter 24 manaketes, even with max mag and +3 atk from A Roy, because Forblaze is a weak ass piece of shit) and passively gives Niime 30 staff accuracy and 2-3 staff range.

Lilina is someone that I use in every run. Because I can't stand Lugh's low Mag and having a chance to waste EXP if he got screwed which can happen with a 35% chance (Having to bench him later cuz of it) in comparison to Lilina which she is almost always going to guarantee to max out in Mag.

Lugh's mag growth is 40%

Also earlygame, it's not like no one else other than Lilina and Rutgar will do hardly any damage to any of the earlygame bosses. Because of Lilina's fraility, she will need to be rescued constantly from 1~2 ranged users. Other than that..she will be a great asset. Especially with the Roy supports.

Marcus? Zealot? Dieck? Echidna? Klein?

Good thing she has the magic to compensate for it.

Not near base! Between thrones' +5 res and Fire's lack of useful parameters other than hit, this is not sufficient compensation. Your good ol' Killing Edge has 4 more MT, 30 more crit and hits a lesser +3 def throne bonus.

With Forblaze, she could OHKO him at 20/8 with A Roy, so it's not outside the realms of possibility. But realistically, she'll be dealing the finishing blow after he's been weakened a tad. Narshen can't counter her if he's dead.

So can anyone else with an S rank weapon, Wyrmslayer, or bow. Nothing special here! By the way that is both a ridiculous weapon rank and level to assume for chapter 16. Even my Thany solo speedrun didn't have her at 20/8 in chapter 16.

But what most bosses also have is a stronger 1-range option.

Nuh-uh! Bosses of chapters 13, 15, 19I, 20I/S have Spears and only Spears. The chapter 20xI boss has a Spear in addition to a Silver Lance (but spending 2 units a turn to shuffle Lilina in and out of range is a waste of resources and hurts her purported bosskilling ability). Bosses of chapters 16, 21, and 22 have other strong 1-2 range weapons. The chapter 18S boss has a pair of brave weapons. Chapters 14x, 16x, 18I, 21x have magic-using bosses that Lilina has huge problems damaging anyway.

Where is this "most" that you are talking about? Do your research, please.

You can forget about her doing anything against magic bosses not called Windam. All of the other bosses have a short-range weapon. Who apart from Armorslayer Rutger is doing double-digit damage to Morgan?

How about Armorslayer anyone else?

Roy and Oujay/Gonzales is probably following her around, (yes, they're not the best of units, but their support adds up, and they're fast enough that you don't have to go at STP to build them), and you're probably setting up a unit to counter them on the EP, and unless it's an archer, the boss will have his 1 range weapon equipped afterwards anyway.

The fact that your list of assumptions is already this lengthy indicates that there are some fundamental problems with your assumption.

You know, the one that that absolutely ruins arguments is poor research. I can't really take any of you guys seriously.

Edited by dondon151, 27 March 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[whase]

There's different playstyles, and there's either ignoring the cons completely, or sugarcoating the cons in order to make them seem like pros. Both you and Ayanami are doing the underlined.

I'm not ignoring/sugarcoating the cons. I know she has plenty of cons, but they just don't weight up against the pros. try playing the game my way with different characters, you'll find out Lilina suddenly becomes one of your most valuable characters.

[Integrity]

are you saying I should give my vote based on how other people play this game?

No, read what Al said. You're essentially saying "if you mold your playstyle entirely around lilina she's good", man. And anyhow, you're using logic that would make damn near anybody with passable growths Lilina-grade. If I said that well Neimi is good because if you Skirmish-grind her to 20/15 in chapter 9 then she can solo the entire game with swords, should that even matter? Sure, it's my playstyle, but it's so fringe as to be irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

If you can convince me that your Lilina is doing what you say without feeding her ABUNDANT kills - and by "feeding" I don't mean "taking her and putting her in a chokepoint", I mean "weakening units specifically so lilina can kill them" - okay, you might have some grounds. As it stands, you're arguing a superbly overleveled Lilina which is just stupid. BOYD FOR TOP TIER BECAUSE YOU CAN BEXP HIM TO 20/1 IN C (uh, fuck what level do you get ilyana in in por?)!
EDIT: In case it goes over your head like the other posts, if you're going to argue that a massively overleveled Lilina is amazing I want to see you arguing perfect optimal circumstances for every unit from now on, something you've already not done with Barth.

Edited by Integrity, 27 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[whase]

No, read what Al said. You're essentially saying "if you mold your playstyle entirely around lilina she's good", man. And anyhow, you're using logic that would make damn near anybody with passable growths Lilina-grade. If I said that well Neimi is good because if you Skirmish-grind her to 20/15 in chapter 9 then she can solo the entire game with swords, should that even matter? Sure, it's my playstyle, but it's so fringe as to be irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

If you can convince me that your Lilina is doing what you say without feeding her ABUNDANT kills - and by "feeding" I don't mean "taking her and putting her in a chokepoint", I mean "weakening units specifically so lilina can kill them" - okay, you might have some grounds. As it stands, you're arguing a superbly overleveled Lilina which is just stupid. BOYD FOR TOP TIER BECAUSE YOU CAN BEXP HIM TO 20/1 IN C (uh, fuck what level do you get ilyana in in por?)!

my point is, I'm doing this with all characters. anyone in my team gets the same kind of favoritism, and I'm giving everyone's grades in this way.

[Black★Rock Shooter]

my point is, I'm doing this with all characters. anyone in my team gets the same kind of favoritism, and I'm giving everyone's grades in this way.

hi

Fuck I'm late

Arguing about Lilina and debunking the most common misconceptions about her? It's like I traveled back in time.

1/10, -1 bias point from an actual 2/10. The lengths people are willing to go to make it look like Lilina is anything but garbage is unbelievable. The amount of favouritism it takes to make Lilina even remotely acceptable turns units like Ward and Bors into absolute powerhouses. There's only a couple worse units in this game, and funnily enough, one of them joins in the same chapter (Wendy), and the other is pretty much like her if she joined 8 maps later and took up Dark magic instead (Sophia).

Here is a unit that is ORKO'd by every single enemy you encounter for a long, long time, yet needs to be close to enemies to even do anything (unlike say, a dancer). Get that through your head, please. That alone should dock around 5 points off her score!

did you miss this post

[Integrity]

my point is, I'm doing this with all characters. anyone in my team gets the same kind of favoritism, and I'm giving everyone's grades in this way.

Please, sir, let me articulate something to you as best I can.

I remember he was my worst unit in my paladin PT, not counting Marcus and Zealot.
all in all, he isn't terrible though.
5.5/10

I'm honestly surprised I didn't toss this one out for lack of any sort of logic. I suppose I was tired and interpreted "he isn't terrible" as enough. Whatever, though, bygones be bygones.
Noah is on a horse, arrives earlier, and does a competent job if nothing more. However, if you're feeding him half the kills you're allegedly feeding Lilina, he's going to start wrecking shit. On a horse. Anything that Lilina is doubling, Noah is doubling too, no question. Does he do less damage? Sure, and plenty, but he has existent durability. So by "your playstyle", I could mash an argument together for Noah at least = Lilina. Yet, he's three points lower, and you sure as fuck didn't make any mention of this "same kind of favoritism" you gave Lilina.

EXCELSIOR

growths could be better, no steady 1-2 range.
great bases, gains axes, still easily 1 of the best units in the game.
8/10

Dieck is always raping Lilina for durability forever. Dieck can be thrown into chokepoints from the word 'go' and survive. He didn't require the babying Lilina did - but if you're feeding him everything you're feeding Lilina, he's promoting about when Lilina is joining. At that point, he's got 1-2 range! BUT INTOGROTY, you say, HAND AXES HAVE SHIT HIT. Fire has 45 hit more than a Hand Axe (that's a lot). Promoted Dieck has FIFTEEN SKILL more than base Lilina. That kicks his Accuracy up 30 points, EDIT2: okay 2/3 of the difference. Even if they're the same level at the same time (how the fuck would this happen), Dieck's got higher SPD for more reliable doubling and he maintains a 8 point Skill lead - still 16 points of HIT. So one thing's too dodgy (or swordlockey) for Dieck to reliably Hand Axe, he just switches to a sword of any caliber and reams it more reliably than Lilina ever could. And did I mention his durability lead forever? Yet, Dieck is rated the precise same as Lilina despite eight chapters of availability.
EDIT: Then there's the whole "1 of the best units in the game = 8/10" thing, which makes no fucking sense but I digress.
EDIT3: BRS points out that you actually rated Lilina 8.5/10, which means that Lilina > Dieck, "1 of the best units in the game". Can you not see the logical fallacy here?

either lancestuck in axefest or early promotion. I'm a statjunky, meaning I'd never promote early.
next to that, armors are horrible in FE6, they get doubled by everything even with capped speed.
2/10

So where's this Light-blasted "same kind of favoritism"? He needs an early promotion, and you deliberately sandbag him by not giving it to him. Or are you giving everybody individually the "same kind of favoritism" that Lilina in particular needs? This is the only rating where I even sorta agree with the hierarchy of your scores, yet I'm still pulling it in because it supports my point.

Edited by Integrity, 27 March 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Thor Odinson]

Hell, I /like/ using Lilina but it doesn't make her any less of a shitty unit. Shit does not look favorable if anything that can attack her will kill her, nor does specifically setting up kills just so she can level up. Weren't for her tendencies to cooperate with me aka get extra speed and go waaaay over her averages at times, and the lack of an otherwise better choice for a mage other than Lugh who can go die in a hole, I probably wouldn't even bother with her.

Edited by Luminescent Blade, 27 March 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Florina Stark]

Er...You can only have +- 1 point for bias, sorry.

Err. no. My bias scores are completely separate from my actual scores. I expect them to count the actual score, not my bias.

[Integrity]

I always count your regular scores unless the bias score is +/- 1 point, then I count the bias score.

I know your game.